BS: Give em shit, Canada

Subject: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:25 AM

Finally, the Canadian government has admitted it made a mistake when it helped the U.S. to send an innocent citizen to Syria to be tortured. Maher Arar has been given an apology and a compensation package in the millions.

Arar remains on the U.S. 'watch list' and the Canadian Prime Minister wants him removed. Arar is suing the U.S. govt. but states that nothing will ever repair his life.

Hats off to his wife who led the battle to free her husband and convince the government that he was innocent. It must have been a daunting task for such a young mother.

Harpers finest hour -

"Now I understand that the United States has requested that Canada not push the United States to amend its records for Mr. Arar.

Canada fully understands, appreciates and shares the United States' concerns about security.

However, this government – the government of Canada – has every right to go to bat for one of its citizens when the government believes a Canadian is being unfairly treated by another country."


http://www.news.gc.ca/cfmx/view/en/index.jsp?articleid=270889

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnomad
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:34 AM

A civilised apology, and what I would expect from Canada. I would, however, feel they have more than a right to support their citizen, I would view it as a duty to do so.

Sad that they should need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:41 AM

What a mess! Two men were tortured into naming names in Syria. Maher Arar was named and the proof of his terrorist activities is a car rental agreement cosigned by one of the men.

The CIA admits to approximately 36 errors which have led to the incarceration and in some cases torture of innocent people. Here is another example covered by the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html


All in the name of Homeland Security.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 09:22 AM

i agree totally,Canada deserves shit

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:41 AM

Thanks for playing, GUEST,ib48.

Johnny, tell him what he's won!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:02 PM

One demerit. His IQ shall now be 47.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

I was surprised by Harper's rather sudden turn, as he has been kinda quiet on this for some while now and is blunt to the point reply to the Big Guy down south.

Well, I guess at this point Harper (to survive politically) he has to disassociate himself from Bush somewhat ... with Bush just a tread distance away from being impeached.

All politiking aside, this apology from the Canadian government is well deserved for Arar .... and yes dianavan ... hat's off to his wife who has been relentless in her securing her husband's freedom.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 02:07 PM

Sinsull - I think that the rental agreement was in regards to a home for his family but I'm not sure.

The story I heard was that Arar asked a co-worker to sign as a reference but when he wasn't available, the co-worker's cousin signed for him. It was the cousin of the co-worker that was under surveilance. When Arar was returning to Canada via the U.S., they nailed him as a terrorist, sent him to Syria and tortured him.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM

Very informative article, SINSULL - "Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema and sleeping drugs. They outfit detainees in a diaper and jumpsuit for what can be a day-long trip. Their destinations: either a detention facility operated by cooperative countries in the Middle East and Central Asia, including Afghanistan, or one of the CIA's own covert prisons"

Even if a person is guilty, outsourcing torture is inhumane. Can you imagine the terror if you were completely innocent?

Someone should hold the U.S. accountable. In this case, it was a young, Canadian mother. I'd like to see that kind of bravery more often. She stood up to the Canadian government and the U.S. government and held them accountable. We need more people like her.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 02:48 PM

I still think some senior members of government, CSIS and the RCMP should fry for this one....a disgusting perversion of civil rights. I won't hold my breath though.

I also figured that the RCMP should have been brought to task for deeming Farley Mowat a "subversive" and passing that "information" on to the Americans, so he was refused entry into the US under Reagan. Fortunately for Mowat, he had the good fortune to not be a naturalized Canadian.

Sorry, but the cynic in me views anything out of Harpers' mouth or other seats of power in this country, as pure political posturing. You can bet your own ass, that even while the mouth is moving and uttering statements to the contrary, collected information, based upon a skewed, frivolous perception of what constitues a "dangerous citizen" is still pumping down the dirt chute to the US, unimpeded, along with the rest of the shit........same as it ever was..... same as it ever was.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:54 PM

Actually, Metchosin, the head of the RCMP resigned over the Arar case.

I too, can hardly believe Harper. Not only is he 'standing up' to the U.S., all of a sudden he is interested in alternate energy! Did you hear his speech about our Mighty wind and our roaring tides? He sounded like Gordon Lightfoot. Talk about political posturing! Reminds me of the time Gordon Campbell tried to pass himself off as a folksinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 08:05 PM

Giuliano Zaccardelli (ex-head of the rcmp, who resigned over this case) should have his pension confiscated and applied to the Arar compenastion.

Regarding Harper ... as I mentioned up above ... it's a political move. He is fighting for his political life ... distancing himself (reasons why are obvous) as far away from George Bush as he can get.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:08 AM

The mean spirited name of this thread is totally appropriate.

Go get 'em Dianavan. Tear them a new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:31 AM

How about Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin? Who screwed them over?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:37 AM

The resignation of Zaccardeli with pension is hardly a fish fry dianavan, just one sacrifical goat. He wasn't working in a vaccuum under the Liberals either. These kind of individuals receive marching orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:39 AM

You suck, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:00 AM

You're right, Metchosin. He was probably given a very hefty pension to keep his mouth shut.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:03 PM

Thanks for your mean spirited comment.

How about Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin? Who screwed them over?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:11 PM

Not hard to guess your attitude, Dickey. Throw all the brown ones in the pit and let time and torture sort `em out, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM

While I agree that people shouldn't be sent to countries that torture people I'm astounded at the two faced bigotry and moral bankruptcy of the starter of this thread. Not one word , as far as I can see, to critisize the people who actually comitted the torture. But that's par for the course. Have a go at the US, let's not face up to the real problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:58 PM

"an innocent citizen"

Arar:"I told them I had not done my military service"

He was a Syrian citizen. Syrian citizens are required to do militry service.

Therefore he was not an innocent citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:58 PM

I don't have much time for Stephen Harper, but I don't think people realize how much bad feeling this case has stirred up against the United States government on both the left and right wings.   People are really mad about this -- and until the United States takes him off their stupid list they will continue to be mad about it.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

Dickey and Crazyhorse - Arar was a joint Canadian/Syrian citizen who had resided in Canada for 16 years. His family was in Canada, not Syria.

The U.S. did not return him to Canada but to Syria where they knew he would be tortured. It is the U.S. that is outsourcing torture. Thats why I criticize the U.S. I am also criticizing the fact that the U.S. still has him on a watch list.

He was innocent of terrorist activity and a citizen of Canada. With friends like the U.S., who needs enemies like Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:14 PM

He had dual citizenship. He was wanted in Syria for not fulfilling his mandatory military obligation.

How about Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin? Who screwed them over?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:24 PM

How about Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin? Who screwed them over?

You clearly think you have a devastating answer lined up for that, so give it to us, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:40 PM

I thought the experts on governmnet malfunctions here would know the answer.

I believe they do but they do not want to say who screwed them over. They are to busy trying to blame their faults on the US government.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:56 PM

I cannot deny that.

Therefore is it permissable for Canada to do the same for four people and critiscise the US for doing it to one person because of the faulty information Canada gave to the US?

That is fecal material indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:09 AM

Will you kindly tell us which four people you are referring to? Your defense is becoming a bit vague.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: 3refs
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:37 AM

I think Mr Arar(and his wife/family) should be thankful that the U.S. didn't just keep him.

We've been trying to get Leonard Peltier back from them for decades.

Hypothetically speaking, when they come to me and say "He knows where your wife and kids are being held hostage, but we're going to have to torture him to get the answers". This would be where I take off my Mr. Niceguy hat!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:42 AM

Yep, we really are only 3 missed meals away from anarchy.

The scary part is that there are plenty of people who'd love to take us there.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:50 AM

Clearly you have some point you are trying to make Dickey, so why not make it yourself directly?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM

I'm not debating where the man was from or what he did my problem is that you care not one jot for him otherwise you would have criticized his torturers as well as the US. You didn't, to you he's simply a stick to beat the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:16 PM

From the article linked above, "Given what we've learned through the Inquiry, however, it is clear that we cannot fully understand the Canadian role in Mr. Arar's case without understanding the Canadian role in the cases of Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and Mr. Nureddin," he said.

Complicity by Canada is undeniable. That is why Arar was given an apology and awarded compensation (not that anything will compensate for the effect this has had on his life). As to the others, they have been released but I do not know if they have sought legal representation or if they have, where they might be in the process.

It seems, however, that the U.S. feels no need to apologize or remove Arar from their 'watch' list. He will probably use the Canadian compensation money to sue the U.S. He wants justice and he wants to make sure that other Canadians are not subjected to torture. We need more citizens like Arar in Canada.

Crazyhorse - The fact that Arar was tortured in Syria does not excuse the U.S. for sending him there. I have nothing to say about Syria or why they engage in torture. Why don't you question the U.S. policy of outsourcing torture?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:51 PM

Rather than make mean spirited remarks like you do, I prefer to ask for explanations of why your country did the same or worse to several people with out being mislead by the US.

Does this come under Holier than thou or the Hypocricy definition?

Also as noted, Mr. Arrar was not an innocent citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM

Mr. Arar is an innocent citizen of Canada. His military obligation to Syria has nothing to do with why he was deported to Syria nor does it have anything to do with why he was tortured.

The U.S. did not mislead Canada. As far as I know, it was the RCMP who misled the U.S. therefore the apology and the compensation from Canada. As to the others, I can only quote the article you linked above, " "Given what we've learned through the Inquiry, however, it is clear that we cannot fully understand the Canadian role in Mr. Arar's case without understanding the Canadian role in the cases of Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and Mr. Nureddin," he said.

I'm not mean-spirited, I'm just waiting for the U.S. to admit that they are complicit in the torture of innocent Canadian citizens. You seem to think that its justified because it was done in Syria. Were Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and Mr. Nureddin sent to Syria because they had not fulfilled their military obligation to Syria? I think not.

Do you or do you not approve of torturing innocent Canadian citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:39 PM

dianavan.... "... As far as I know, it was the RCMP who misled the U.S." How, then, is the U.S. "complicit"?

I have NEVER followed this case. Just wondering how the U.S, is "complicit"?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:07 PM

I think we can all see why you have nothing to say.

You've been shown for exactly what you are

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:38 PM

gnu - I'm not sure if 'complicit' is the right term but it was the U.S. who prevented Arar from returning home and it was the U.S. who sent him to Syria.

I have nothing to say about Syria because it is obvious that if I disagree with torture, I disagree with the country doing the torture.

The whole affair was unjust and although Canada has admitted their part and their wrongdoing in this case, the U.S. has not.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:57 PM

Originally you did not say he was an innocent citizen of Canada.

You said he was an innocent citizen.

If a citizen of Syria has a military obligation and they do not fulfill that ogbligation, they are hot innocent.

Why did he and the others keep their Syrian citizenship?

Would they have been tortured if they had fulfilled their military obligations?

What would American have done if Canada had not alerted the US?

And what is the status of a non citizen at an international airport in the US? Are they officialy in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:29 PM

Tough times for the U.S. when they have to "Outsource" torture.
Love to see Lou Dobbs on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:08 AM

I believe in stating all the facts instead of cherry picking them in a mean spirited attempt to shift the blame on others.

There are always two sides to every story.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:28 AM

And when did Canada start giving shit away?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:07 AM

"Would they have been tortured if they had fulfilled their military obligations?"

He was tortured because they thought he was connected to terrorists not because of so-called military obligations to Syria.

"Why did he and the others keep their Syrian citizenship?"

Probably for the same reason I kept my U.S. citizenship. Thats where I was born.

"And what is the status of a non citizen at an international airport in the US?"

He was not a non citizen, he was a citizen of Canada.

"And when did Canada start giving shit away?"

We will give you shit anytime you ask for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:43 AM

When did we ask for your shit? Your statement was give'em shit Canada.

I really don't want any of your mean spirited shit from Canada.

The information told to the US about your innocent citizen that did not fulfill his Syrian obligation and therefore wanted in Syria was shit and the reatment given to the other tree canadian citizens was shit.

A Canadian citizen is a non citizen in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:32 AM

Arar was not 'wanted' in Syria. In fact, they sent him first to Jordan because Syria did not want him.

He came to Canada when he was seventeen years old. Why would he feel obliged to serve in the Syrian military if he lived in Canada? He was denied entry into Canada by the U.S. and sent to be tortured because they thought he had terrorist connections. They were wrong.

The U.S. has no right to outsource the torture of Canadian citizens and they have no right to keep Arar's name on their list of suspected terrorists.

If you want to remain impotent, Dickie, thats your choice but Canadians actually care about their loss of freedom.

The U.S. asks for shit from Canada when it messes with our rights and refuses to admit to any wrongdoing.

So piss off, Dickie.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dicky
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

Yes, I am pissed off by the unwanted shit from Canada.

First Canada says don't let this man fly and then they say You have to apologize for being mislead by us.

"Arar:
Then a man from the INS came in and told me they wanted me to volunteer to go to Syria. I said no way...
..I called Monia's mother, who was here in Ottawa, and told her I was scared they might send me to Syria...
...They said they wanted to know why I did not want to go back to Syria. I told them I would be tortured there. I told them I had not done my military service; I am a Sunni Muslim; my mother's cousin had been accused of being a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and was put in prison for nine years...
...I overheard them talking on the phone, saying that Syria was refusing to take me directly, but Jordan would take me..."

They should have come down and got this guy and then they would be the ones turning him over to his native country where he was wanted like they did the other three.

U.S. says Arar should be on watch list

"Based on this reexamination, we remain of the view that the continued watch listing of Mr. Arar is appropriate," they wrote in their January 16 letter to Stockwell Day, Canada's minister of public safety.

"We want to ensure that this U.S.-derived information has been shared with Canada," Gonzales and Chertoff said, adding that they would welcome a confidential meeting with appropriate Canadian officials "at their earliest convenience."

In Ottawa, Day's office had no immediate reaction.

Are all Canadians as mean spirited as you?

By the way I used to have an older brother named Richard. To tell us apart, the family used to call him Big Dickey and me Little Dickey.

Now that he has passed away they call me Dickey.

That should give you something to chew on. ;D

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM

Stockwell Day is as stupid as George Bush--hard to believe as you may find that to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:29 PM

Oh, you mean Doris? :P

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:35 PM

Nope. Stockwell. The guy's an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:31 PM

That's an understatement.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:06 PM

He may not be as dumb as Bush, but he's just as nuckin' futs.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:25 PM

Why he's so dumb he sits on the TV and watches the sofa.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:39 PM

"Why did he and the others keep their Syrian citizenship?"

Are there any countries where people have the option of giving up their citizenship just because they no longer live there? Maybe there are, but my understanding is that the normal position is that that they don't have that option. (And that has been the basis on which disaffected citizens of countries such as the UK and the USA in times of conflict have been jailed and even executed.)

My brother was born in Argentina, and the family moved back to Europe when he was about three. Many years later he was thinking of paying a visit to out relatives out there, and he learned that he was liable for miitary service. He had to wait until he was middle-aged and no longer eligible to serve in the armed forces before he was able to pay a visit to the country he had been born in.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:23 PM

It really does seem a bit ungrateful of the USA - they get Syria to do their dirty work for them, torture and so forth - and then they turn round and treat them as an enemy.

They don't even offer to let the Syrians use Guantanamo Bay, if it would be a more convenient place to do the torturing.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:51 PM

If you read the whole article instead of quoting part of it out of context, you will understand that it is U.S. derived information and information from other sources that is being used to keep Arar on the watch list.

I hope he sues the U.S. so that they will stop arresting and detaining innocent people.

What evidence do you have, Dickey, that makes you so sure that Arar deserved to be tortured?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:55 PM

:P Peace, I was kidding, and referring to:

Further suggestions of a hidden agenda focussed on the Alliance's direct democracy proposals, which were revealed to require a referendum on any proposal supported by a petition signed by 3% of Canadian voters. Some asserted that "special interest" groups would use the low requirements to put contentious subjects to a national referendum. The proposal was satirized by Rick Mercer of This Hour has 22 Minutes who started a mock online petition calling for a referendum on whether Day should change his first name to Doris. The petition garnered more than a million signatures. /end quote/ <--- this was in 2000, but it stuck with me and I've never not been able to snicker at him since.
Clicky here for info on Day

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:01 PM

Peace has no TV, so he was unfamiliar with Rick Mercer's campaign to rub Stock's nose in his own words.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:06 PM

Ah. That'd explain it.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:49 PM

First he was detained due to information from Canada.

Second there is other information that the US thinks is sufficient to keep him on the no fly list. They are attempting to share it with Canada as soon as they respond.

And he was not an innocent citizen as you keep claiming.

The trouble started in Tunisia before he departed for Canada:
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
MAHER ARAR,
Plaintiff

"...in an investigation by "Project A-O Canada," a Canadian team
investigating terrorist suspects in Ottawa. According to the
letter, Arar was contacted by an investigator with Project A-O
Canada on January 22, 2002, during which time he was in Tunisia.
On January 25, Arar told the investigator "he could perhaps be
available" on Monday, July 28 for an interview. See LaHood
Letter at 2. Later that day, however, Arar's attorney "contacted
the investigator to advise him that there would need to be
parameters for the interview." Id. at 2-3. The attorney
"requested that the interview take place in his office and that
Mr. Arar's statement not be used in proceedings as a substitution
for his actual testimony; clearly the information gathered could
be used for the investigation, and nothing would preclude calling
Mr. Arar to testify." Id. at 3. As a result of these conditions
– which were shared with U.S. officials – and because the
investigation wound up focusing on other areas, Arar was never
contacted again for an interview. See id. The LaHood letter
claims that, in light of plaintiff's decision to exercise his
constitutional right to remain silent, which was known to U.S.
officials, Arar's interrogation within the United States took
place in disregard of Arar and his attorney's request.
To some extent, the contents of the LaHood letter undermine
plaintiff's claim, "on information and belief," that there has
never been, nor is there now, any reasonable suspicion that he
was involved in such activity. Although the account of what
occurred in the Canadian investigation could not give rise to an
adverse inference in a criminal prosecution, the change in Arar's
posture would certainly justify at least some suspicion (and
perhaps reasonable suspicion) on the part of U.S. officials
during their investigation about Arar's activities...."

Why would he need a lawyer in Tunisia? Perhaps if he had cooperated fully with the Canadian investigator in Tunisia the whole thing would never have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:01 AM

"First he was detained due to information from Canada."

That's true, and the Top Cop got the axe (as it were). Sorry, Seiri. As Bobad said, I have no TV so have missed the efforts on Mercer's part to make Stockwell Day appear just as he is. However, it certainly leads to a chilling thought: imagine him and Bush putting their brains together (I know, I know), and deciding matters of importance. That's enough to make a guy take up drinking. Lots.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:11 AM

"The LaHood letter
claims that, in light of plaintiff's decision to exercise his
constitutional right to remain silent, which was known to U.S.
officials, Arar's interrogation within the United States took
place in disregard of Arar and his attorney's request."

Grab a brain, Dickey. If you were a Canadian/Syrian in Tunisia and were contacted by a Canadian team investigating terrorist suspects in Ottawa, don't you think it would be a good idea to get a lawyer?

Too bad the U.S. didn't respect his rights and ignored his attorney.

Just because someone doesn't want to play with you, doesn't give you the right to beat him up. Thats what bullies do.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:27 AM

If all of this is the fault of the US, How come the same thing happened to the other three?

If Mr Arar had returned to Canada it would have happened to all four.

You keep skipping over the fate of Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin. You ignore that and focus only on Arar to defend Canada, and mount a mean spirited attack the US for doing the same thing that the Canadians did with the exception that Canada instructed the US to retain him.

Were you aware of Arar's Syrian citizenship and unfulfilled military obligation when you started this belligerent (as evidenced ny the title) attack? Were you aware of what happened in Tunisia?

If not you don't know all the facts and in large part acting in ignorance.

What happens when you give somebody shit? What do you get in return?

Do you need to be told what to do with your shit?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:52 AM

So should my brother have gone out to the Argentine to carry out his "unfulfilled military obligation", Dickey?

And you really think that the act of getting a lawyer when the authorities start leaning on you is an indication that you are guilty of something?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:15 AM

I am Canadian with relatives on both sides of the border, 1776 notwithstanding we can even talk to each other if we so choose. If the terrorists had knocked down the CN tower and destroyed other parts of Canada would some Canadians feel the need to worry about some persons rights who is still a citizen of another country. When the twin towers were destroyed with loss of life it created a knee-jerk reaction, if you don't think the reaction would be the same in Canada, then I don't think you know your country very well. Reactions to acts of terrorism usually do result in acts that would not have been done in times of less stress. After 10 years of military service and over 65 years under my belt I do not believe that I have the right to criticise the foreign policy of another country. As for our own countries deeds, at least the present gov't did something, if the previous gov't were in power they would still be forming a commission to assess if there was a need to form a commission to investigate acts of wrongdoing. Give your heads a shake the corrupt liberal gov't hasn't been out of power that long. Remember how many years it took to finally have an inquiry into the liberals theft of millions of dollars?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM

Mr able - until our involvement in Afghanistan, terrorists have had no reason to target Canada.

"...would some Canadians feel the need to worry about some persons rights who is still a citizen of another country."

Most Canadians do not discriminate between citizens born here and those who have become citizens through immigration. A citizen is a citizen.

Some Canadians are red-necks and some Canadians are right-wing Conservatives. Luckily you are the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Bee
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:41 AM

Quote: "After 10 years of military service and over 65 years under my belt I do not believe that I have the right to criticise the foreign policy of another country." - Able

Really? You don't feel you have the right to criticise the governments of Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, Somalia, etc? I believe as a Canadian citizen I have the right to criticise any government's foriegn policy, including that of my own. Whether I am correct in my criticism is another issue.

I also have relatives on both sides of the border, and some of them have dual citizenship, and I would certainly worry about their rights, regardless of their being citizens of another country besides Canada. That the US is the other country instead of Syria should be beside the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:43 AM

If I were what you say then I would feel the need to respond in kind to your post, I don't because you obviously don't know this country as well as you think you do. Don't disseminate knowledge from some ivory tower in the city, most of us don't live in the city and we see and hear the things you would relegate to a wild eyed minority. People in the hinterland don't even begin to think like city dwellers.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:40 PM

Able, with respect, I suggest that not only do you have the right to question the foreign policy of any country in this world--more than that, you have the responsibility to do so. Your remark about city people and country people seeing things differently is, IMO, sophistry. Foolish people see things foolishly regardless where they reside. Smart people likewise. Best regards to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Bee
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:52 PM

Able, I don't live in the city, and I don't agree with your stance, either. I likely don't agree with Dianavan on everything, but in this instance, except for the redneck comment, which is inflammatory in my opinion, and no doubt elicited your equally inflammatory ivory tower comment, I do.

Frankly, much right-wing conservatism seems mean-spirited to me, but that does not require me to be a Liberal government supporter.

And I would like to know what exactly are you talking about by referring to "we see and hear the things you would relegate to a wild eyed minority". That kind of mysterious comment doesn't add to anyone's understanding of where you're coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

Dickey and able seem to find it very hard to understand that it is possible to be a citizen of more than one country without having any say in it. It's not a matter of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

"until our involvement in Afghanistan, terrorists have had no reason to target Canada."

So there were no Canadians in the Towers then. You'd rather have ago at anything the US does rather than a mysoginist, theocratic, homophobic fascist organisation. I'm alright in Canada, leave me alone, I'll ignore the stonings and the FGM, the hanging of gays. Get to grips with your post modern relativism, yes the US does some dumb stuff but for gods sake open your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:00 PM

Stoning and stirring up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Bee
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM

Gnu, that was kind of appalling - they don't think they're racist, eh?

Certainly we deal with culture clash where some immigrants are concerned, but it doesn't help when people in positions of authority make blanket assumptions about people who most likely have moved their families here because they like the idea of life in Canada better than their country of origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM

Crazyhorse - I don't believe in invading other countries.

If, however, another country invaded us, I would readily take up arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM

I was in the military during the Cuban missile crisis and couldn't be more than 5 minutes from a telephone. All the time, I kept wondering what the hell had happened. We were in the position of facing nuclear war and the deaths of millions. Now we are in afghanistan fighting for the rights of women, my contention is that those who feel the need to impose their beliefs on others should join the military pick up their weapon and go fight for their beliefs. Just don't be too bitter if the other guy kills you for his beliefs. Too many people in this day and age are willing to fight to the last drop of someone elses blood, in other words put your money where your mouth is. If you talk the talk then start walking the walk. If I wanted to live in Canada and moved here took out citizenship and wanted to stay then my former country should revoke my citizenship. From my vantage point of over 200 years in North America, it seems to me that far too many so called citizens left their own country moved here and then try to embroil us in their former countries problems. If you feel so much for your old country then perhaps you should return and rectify the wrongs, after all, you do care enough to die for your country don't you. Just don't ask me or mine to die for your country. Take your hate back to your country of origin, people who think North America should spill it's blood to impose western ideals on other countries can't seem to get it through their heads that we will have to kill those people to impose our beliefs. In return, he has to fight back in any way that he can, the world isn't perfect and never will be, but if you do want to make it perfect then you better get your uniform on, pick up your weapon and go fight. If you aren't willing to do this then you are just another heroic horses ass who is willing to fight to the last drop of someone elses blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 06:01 PM

The NATO decision to invade Afghanistan was a decision that NATO made. There is a big offensive beginning to build up there on the part of the Taliban. And it will be bloody. I am fed up with Canada sending troops and not sending the necessary support. I am equally fed up with people who think that it's a police action. Fawk! It's a hot war and the present ROE suck. Small-unit warfare can be sustained for short periods of time, but attrition makes longer actions a poor, no, stupid choice. The best the NATO forces can hope for is to fight a defensive war. The machinery just isn't there to do a proper search and destroy, nor is the troop concentration, nor is the ability to fortify positions that HAVE been taken. Thinking that Afghanistan is a piece of cake in terms of pacification is idiotic. I am sure someone somewhere in NATO's structure is aware of the Russian time there. Either do the fuckin' job or get the hell out. BTW, what IS the job that needs to be done in Afghanistan? As in there are about 2,500 Canuck kids there and this guy would like to know exactly what the job is. Anyone here got any idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Bee
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM

I certainly don't, Peace. I agree with most of your points to the extent of my weak understanding of military action. I am sorry to say I don't think Harper is much more educated on Afghanistan than I am. I don't much like Harper, but given he's been elected, I'd like to think he had a clue what he's doing besides running off to the place once a year to sun his pudgy white face in front of camera flashes. This government and the one before it have failed to explain to me why young Canadians are dying in Afghanistan. Get them out or put the money in it to get them out with the job (whatever the hell it is) done.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Don LAst
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:30 AM

Canada (this is not a joke) passed a law today that made it explicitly clear that there will be no stoning of women in the public square...


Authorities said that certain immigrants may be functioning under legal concepts of thier home country so we need to be absolutely clear that Canda does not allow certain barbaric practices that some people have grown accustomed to back home.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:48 AM

MGH:

If he believes Argentina is his homeland he should. Or stay out. It is difficult to have things both ways.

And I don't regard being asked questions constiutues being "leaned on". Someome only needs a lawyer when they think they are in trouble. The hiring of a lawyer indicate the person needs defending for some reason.

IF Arar had flown directly to Canada would things have turned out differently? Considering the fact that three other "innocent citizens" suffered the same fate at the hands of the Canadians, I don't think so.

Those 3 others are being skipped over in this thread because they cannot be used in this mean spirited attack the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:58 AM

Don LAst @ 01 Feb 07 - 02:30 AM : You are incorrect. Please see my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:36 PM

Someome only needs a lawyer when they think they are in trouble. The hiring of a lawyer indicate the person needs defending for some reason.

No point in arguing with that kind of logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:39 PM

"Someome only needs a lawyer when they think they are in trouble. The hiring of a lawyer indicate the person needs defending for some reason."


That is real Homeland Security thinking. The USA needs more folks like that. Keep people safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:45 PM

The old, "If you've done nothing wrong, then you've got nothing to hide" con.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:35 PM

able -

The three other cases are now before the Canadian courts.

Arar repeatedly asked that he be sent to Canada rather than Syria.

I guess he thought he had a better chance for justice in Canada than in Syria.

So why did our good friend, the U.S., send him to Syria instead of Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:40 PM

Anyone who refuses to admit their guilt is merely making things worse for themselves.

"Obduracy" is the word that applies in such cases -
"the state or quality of being intractable or hardened".

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:54 PM

"...Someome only needs a lawyer when they think they are in trouble. The hiring of a lawyer indicate the person needs defending for some reason."


Are not Americans reknowned for being so damned litigious?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:34 PM

But learning about law is pretty suspicious behaviour in any case, especially in someone who isn't a lawyer. I mean, why would anyone want to do that for unless they were up to no good?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:53 PM

If we're going to elect representatives who write law, and if we're going to be governed by law (ideally), we'd better learn something about law--not that legal jargon makes it easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:34 PM

the only reason the us still maintains arar as a security risk
and does not allow him acces to the us is plain and simple.

to allow him in the US would make his case against the US govt easier.
(and more highprofile) its unlikely he would win but it would open up the whole can of worms of guantanamo and extraordinary renditions to secret camps etc..

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:56 PM

"Nonetheless, pressure is mounting in the US to make amends to Arar and to allow him to enter the country. Now that the Democrats control both the country's Congress and Senate, concerns that they raise carry more weight. So far, Edward Markey, the Democratic Congressman from Massachusetts, has called on the United States to follow Canada's lead in acknowledging wrongdoing in sending Arar to Syria to be tortured; Senate judiciary committee head Patrick Leahy has also weighed in on the matter.

At a meeting of the judiciary committee January 18, Leahy grilled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales on the Arar affair, charging that "we ... knew damn well, if he went to Syria he would be tortured." Gonzales promised to share the Arar dossier with Leahy in the near future, to justify the decision to keep his name on the watch list. Unsatisfied, Leahy went on to attack the entire practice of extraordinary rendition at the same session.

In the meantime, Arar's US lawyer, Maria LaHood, continues to push his civil suit against the United States, appealing the most recent American court ruling that held since Arar was a non-citizen, he was not entitled to the redress he was seeking."

from

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20070131-105402-9085r

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM

petr - "...it would open up the whole can of worms of guantanamo and extraordinary renditions to secret camps etc.."

Thats one of the main reasons why the Arars continue to pursue this and why I'm proud that Canadian citizens are doing this.

Its not easy to go through the courts, especially if there is little chance for justice. We should all applaud their courage. I hope that their persistence will awaken the public to the necessity of protecting our rights and freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:18 AM

"..Abdullah Almalki is one of at least eight Muslim-Canadians who have been imprisoned in a foreign country after being questioned by Canadian security agents. Some of those men, including Maher Arar, Muayyed Nureddin, Ahmad El-Maati and Mr. Almalki, say they were tortured overseas.

They suspect Canadian intelligence and those who gather it played an important, and still unexplained, role in what happened to them.

A federal commission of inquiry is examining the case of Ottawa computer engineer Maher Arar, but the federal government has so far resisted calls to broaden the scope of that inquiry to include the other cases..."

http://www.amp.ghazali.net/html/who_is_al_malky.html

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:59 AM

That doesn't absolve the USA of its complicity or wrong-doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 10:58 AM

But admit it, it is difficult for the authorities to defend their actions, given the assumption that anyone who attempts to defend themselves must be guilty...

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:15 PM

What absolves Canada to the point that they can criticise others for doing wht they did?

The Canadian criticisim of the US is a smoke screen for what happened eightfold in Canada. If you figure in the population ratio, it had happend eighty fold in Canada.

It was triggered by screw up on the part of Canada.

Mean spirited Hypocrisy is a good way to describe this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:21 PM

"What absolves Canada to the point that they can criticise others for doing wht they did?"

Nothing. The same nothing that also doesn't absolve the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:27 PM

BTW, Dick, you are starting to sound like an ill-informed individual, no offense. I have never said Canada doesn't share the shit on this. Canada does. However, the USA is also guilty as hell. So cut the crap and give it a rest. You appear to be a "my country right or wrong" kinda guy. That sort of thinking is no longer fashionable, if indeed it ever was.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM

One last thing: haven't you MFs been 'out-sourcing' torture for a long time now?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:48 PM

100 !!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:51 PM

You appear to be a "my country right or wrong" kinda guy. That sort of thinking is no longer fashionable.

I wish that were true.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:56 PM

From CBC "The federal government announced on Dec. 12, 2006, that it was launching an independent inquiry into the cases of three Canadians who allege they were tortured while imprisoned in Syria."

btw, Dickie - There are still unanswered questions in the Arar case. Hopefully the inquiry into the detention and torture of the other three will shed more light on the involvement of Canada. So far, in the Arar case, all we know is that the RCMP shared info with the U.S.A. We do not know who gave that info to the RCMP and we do not know if the U.S.A. asked Canada to take Arar before sending him to Jordan and then to Syria. We also do not know why Jordan lied about Arar.

This is not over. My hope is that the American public will champion the cause of Arar so that extraordinary rendition and outsourcing torture will end. This practice has tarnished the image of the U.S.A. worldwide and must stop if the U.S.A. ever hopes to regain its reputation as a beacon of democracy.

If this has happened to Canadian citizens, how many others are unaccounted for?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 02:44 PM

Left the thread for a while to see what would transpire. Returned to find that positions haven't changed radically, some are still changeing their opinions with each post. Others haven't changed their positions and everyone becomes deathly silent when challenged to make stand and fight. Anyone can be a heroic horses ass, which means there is no way they are going to personally get into the fighting,it's one thing to be a cheerleaderand another to being killed just for being in another persons country. I have deep respect for the men who are willing to give their lives for what they believe in, and no respect whatsoever for people who are willing to allow young men to die just so they can see their agenda carried out. You know you won't be called upon to fight if you are old, disabled or female. None of you seem to remember when the FLQ was planting bombs all over Montreal. Bombs don't discriminate, they kill everyone including women,the young men die first, if they become too able to thwart the enemy at every turn then the enemy will change his tactics. Can't you people get it through your heads that the people you want to change are willing to die for their beliefs? It is after all their country and they will not allow you to impose your beliefs without exhausting every means at their disposal. The last resort by most terrorists is indiscriminate bombings, and that puts all of us in the front line. Yes, Canada did screw up (I hope) on Arar, the US appears to have done the same. None of which changes the scenery onstage. We are still in the process of becoming statistics in a struggle of wills that will not be resolved until after far too much innocent blood has been shed. You can bandy words about until the cows come home but the people who win will be the ones who write the history books, and in a situation where the opponent believes if he kills you he goes to heaven and if you kill him he goes to heaven, with an incentive of 72 virgins thrown in to sweeten the pot. I come from a time when war was normal and peace was abnormal. It doesn't matter what your political beliefs are when the killing starts, what matters is if you are still around to see the end of the conflict. The best way to avoid trouble is to assess the situation and decide if you are willing to die fighting for your beliefs. If you aren't, then shut up, this world already has enough heroic horses asses willing to allow other people to die for some belief that was hatched on the internet. Over 90% of people are not particularly intelligent, yet they want to galvanize public opinion to their point of view. My patience wears thin with people like that, because they don't seem to have a firm grip on reality. The internet is not reality when you get run over by a car is reality. For God's sake, learn to know the difference, it might save your life. In the meantime try to avoid large gatherings, the enemy you shrug off as of no consequence might have already begun his campaign to indiscriminately kill us off with bombs in mail boxes garbage cans and what have you.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:16 PM

able - "Can't you people get it through your heads that the people you want to change are willing to die for their beliefs?"

The only people I'm trying to change are the politicians and I don't see any of them willing to die for their beliefs. They like to convince people like you that you should die for their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:32 PM

"The best way to avoid trouble is to assess the situation and decide if you are willing to die fighting for your beliefs."

First thing in assessing the situation is to decide whether dying and killing in the course of fighting for your beliefs is going to help further those beliefs.

I don't think that Islamic jihadists, ready to die and kill for their beliefs, are doing anything to further Islam.   And I don't think that the people who have been sent to die and kill in Iraq by politicians sitting safely in London and Washington (in the safe parts of London and Washington that is) are doing anything to further what was said to be the reason they were sent, democracy and freedom and human rights and all that.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:06 AM

"my country right or wrong" Precisely the stance of the person that started this thread.

So who screwed up the worst?

Who gave "wrong" info to the US?

Who caused the same thing to happen to several "innocents"?

It's a smoke screen.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:23 AM

OK. Canada is to blame. The US is innocent. Of everything. Forever. And always. Now go play in the fuckin' traffic!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:35 AM

"Guantánamo Bay - a human rights scandal

It is now over five years since the first detainees were transferred to the detention camp at the US Naval Base in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba

Despite widespread international condemnation, hundreds of people of more than 30 nationalities are still there: without charge, and with little hope of obtaining a fair trial."

from Amnesty International

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:39 AM

"We saw a very different scene when we got to the prison. Using maps drawn by a former Tiger Cage prisoner, we diverted from the planned tour and hurried down an alleyway between two prison buildings. We found the tiny door that led to the cages between the prison walls. A guard inside heard the commotion outside and opened the door. We walked in.

The faces of the prisoners in the cages below are still etched indelibly in my mind: the man with three fingers cut off; the man (soon to die) from Quang Tri province whose skull was split open; and the Buddhist monk form Hue who spoke intensely about the repression of the Buddhists. I remember clearly the terrible stench from diarrhea and the open sores where shackles cut into the prisoners' ankles. "Donnez-moi de l'eau" (Give me water), they begged. They sent us scurrying between cells to check on other prisoners' health and continued to ask for water.

The photos that Harkin, today a U.S. Senator from Iowa, took were printed in Life Magazine (July 17, 1970). The international protest which resulted brought about the transfer of the 180 men and 300 women from the Cages. Some were sent to other prisons. Some were sent to mental institutions."

And the hits just keep on rollin'!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:41 AM

'OUTSOURCING TORTURE

The secret history of America's "extraordinary rendition" program.
by JANE MAYER

Issue of 2005-02-14

Posted 2005-02-07


On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that "torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture." Maher Arar, a Canadian engineer who was born in Syria, was surprised to learn of Bush's statement. Two and a half years ago, American officials, suspecting Arar of being a terrorist, apprehended him in New York and sent him back to Syria, where he endured months of brutal interrogation, including torture. When Arar described his experience in a phone interview recently, he invoked an Arabic expression. The pain was so unbearable, he said, that "you forget the milk that you have been fed from the breast of your mother."'

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:43 AM

Dickey (Keriste, change the name, PLEEZE):

Your government did that in your name. Hope you're proud of yourself for 1) agreeing with them and 2) apologizing for the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:45 AM

Russian mothers plead for sons to stay in Guantanamo


Nick Paton Walsh, Moscow
Saturday August 9, 2003
The Guardian

The mothers of the eight Russians held with other prisoners from Afghanistan at the US military base at Guantanamo Bay have begged Washington not to extradite their sons to answer terror charges in Russia, fearing that conditions in their jails and judicial system are even worse than those at Camp Delta.

"In Guantanamo they treat him humanely and the conditions are fine," Amina Khasanova, the mother of Andrei Bakhitov, told the newspaper Gazeta. "I am terribly scared for my son in a Russian prison or court system."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:49 AM

Let's follow the logic. The water in this bath is 212 degrees F. It's only 210 degrees F in this one. Therefore, people should be thankful for being in the cooler bath. Right. Hang in there, Dick!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:58 AM

BTW, is your first name Trickey?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:00 AM

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/detainees/csrt/Set_39_2629-2646.pdf p16

Abu Bakr did not attend his Combatant Status Review Tribunal. But his Personal Representative reported to his Tribunal:

    "Sir he had one short statement. When I spoke to him about being returned to his home country, He said, 'I would rather be in the worst American jail than be a minister in my country. I want to stay here.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:04 AM

"Guantanamo Bay is anything but transparent. Media access to Guantanamo Bay has been severely restricted. Journalists "could not talk to detainees, they had to be accompanied by a military escort and their photos were censored." In June, the military shut down media access entirely.

Point 8 initially quoted the mother of a Russian detainee saying how great Guatanamo Bay was: "Of course they wanted to stay there. … They had human rights and good living standards there. They had dentists and good meals — everything they wanted." As the Wasington Post's Al Kamen notes, "[T]his quote from a March 2004 edition of the London Times was a Russian mother comparing Guantanamo with Russian jails." It has been removed from the current document available online."

Save it, Dick!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:04 AM

That document was a DOD document, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:05 AM

Canada's 'Guantanamo North' prison to open by end of March
Small six-inmate facility within maximum security Millhaven Penitentiary already the subject of human rights protests

Kingston (20 March 2006) - Few people in Canada even know it exists but those who do are already calling it Guantanamo North - a small and intensely secure maximum-security prison for foreign terror suspects detained in Canada...

...Detainees held by Canada on security certificates: Mohamed Harkat (Algeria), Hassan Almrei (Syria), Mohammed Mahjoub (Egypt), Mahmoud Jaballah (Egypt) and Adil Charkaoui (Morocco)....

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:07 AM

"August 8:

Russia's Foreign Ministry has officially confirmed that the U.S. is holding eight Russian citizens captured in Afghanistan at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo, Cuba, Interfax-AVN reports. According to the ministry, Washington is completing "the legal and technical formalities" needed to extradite them to Russia. Meanwhile, Gazeta quotes the mother of one of the Russian detainees as saying she is "terribly scared" her son will be extradited and wind up in a Russian prison. According to the newspaper, the detainee told his mother in a letter that nobody held at Guantanamo "is being beaten or humiliated" and that living conditions there are better than at Russian health resorts."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:09 AM

Yep. Canada has a half dozen. The US has 500. Seems like Canada's guilty alright. Good eye there, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:10 AM

BTW, Dick. From the nature of your posts, I just figured out who you are. Why not just post under your membership name. Make it easier all around.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:11 AM

That way people will accept that you are your same old self and not a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 04:49 AM

I don't have an in depth knowledge of the Arar thing or the peripheral issues because it didn't light a fire for me. My only real concern is for the young men in the field who are going to get it in the neck because people who know nothing about war can't seem to understand that it is mostly young men dying in agony. I suppose my time in the military taught me that nobody gives a shit about this until it is their turn to start paying the price. Can't help myself, I always identify with the grunt. The way I see it, both countries appear to have buggered up for the best of reasons, Canada because we are not particularly adept at international intrigue and the US because of the twin towers. Canada has been far too lax with internal security and I just hope it doesn't come up and bite us on the ass. That said, the Commonwealth and the US haven't been at war since 1814. Dickey, if it comes to a knock down dragem out fight we'll all be on the same side as usual because of our common interests. My family is owed compensation for claims on Wilmington Delaware dating back to 1776. If you will entertain the thought that all of this isn't worth arguing about, I will forget about my personal fortune due because by now it is likely worth less than a buck. Got your e-mail peace, and read up on the Russell thing, didn't even know it existed. My grandmother had twin sisters who both ended up married to the same guy when one of them died. Barnardo's people were still trying to figure that one out over half a century later. They thought their records were wrong. As usual I have digressed, lack the computer skills to wander at will, I am really not a senile old fart, just sound like it sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 11:44 AM

Dickie - The prisoners at Millhaven are not Canadian citizens (unlike Arar) and they are being held under security certificates. The security certificates are, in my opinion, unjust but the alternative is to deport them where they will surely be tortured.

Many Canadians are pressuring the govt. to end the security certificates and give these men the same rights as other prisoners. Millhaven is no paradise but to compare it to Guantanamo is an exageration.

For more information on the conditions of the prisoners at Millhaven, read their own words:

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/924

"We want the same rights as other federal inmates: access to a library, educational programs, and trailer visits with our families where we can stay together for three days every month."

So what does the U.S. do with non-citizens suspected of ties to terrorist?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 02:10 PM

Re gnu's earlier link about stoning and stirring up shit, I caught part of an in depth interview on the CBC last night with one of the Quebec small town mayors. Initially I thought I was listening to Madly Off In All Directions. .... the mayor's comments regarding "dem mooselems and dem jewesses"...... I'm still wiping the tears of laughter from my eyes.........if only problems with the English language were entirely the reason.

OMG! ROTFLMAO!!! Borat is alive and well and living in Quebec! Vive le Borat !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 02:22 PM

Able: "I don't have an in depth knowledge of the Arar thing or the peripheral issues because it didn't light a fire for me."
My sentiments exactly. (Unless of course, I have to land in a foreign country to change flights. I feel safe enough though. For now.)
Hey Metchosin. My kid cooks at the Mychosin Cafe'. Can't cook a damn thing at home though.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:20 PM

"the detainee told his mother in a letter that nobody held at Guantanamo "is being beaten or humiliated" and that living conditions there are better than at Russian health resorts."

Sorta contradicts what the peacemongers chant. ;D

"Canada has a half dozen. The US has 500"

How many of those half dozen were detained on the battlefield?

How many of the 500 were detained in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:57 PM

Shit Dick you never even mentioned my largesse.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 08:11 PM

It was NUPGE that compared Millhaven to Guantanamo.

So what does the U.S. do with non-citizens suspected of ties to terrorist by the Canadian authorities? What were their instructions?

Again, I ask what would have happened differently if had been sent to Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 10:06 AM

"Again, I ask what would have happened differently if had been sent to Canada? "

In short, YES!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 12:35 AM

Again, I ask what would have happened differently if he had been sent to Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 01:22 AM

Canada contacted Arar in Tunisia, remember? They did nothing because he contacted a lawyer and they knew they didn't have enough evidence to hold him. They dropped it or maybe this is when the RCMP contacted the U.S. knowing he would be changing planes there.

The question remains - who made the decision to send him to Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 10:51 PM

Who made the decision to send Maher Arar, Muayyed Nureddin, Ahmad El-Maati to Syria.

If Arar had returned to Canada would he have been sent to Syria too?

It is Ok for Canada to send "innocent" people to Syria but the US is held to a different standard.

Again, I ask what would have happened differently if he had been sent to Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 11:46 PM

He would NOT have been sent to Syria. Hell, the USA fought with this country over Ng--who was wanted in California for murder, and because California was asking for him to be tried for murder one and they were requesting the death penalty, Canada would not send him to California. So stuff it about this Syria shit. In this case YOUR country fucked up. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 12:46 PM

Almalki accuses Ottawa of aiding Syrian officials

"...Abdullah Almalki has accused Canadian officials of having a larger hand in his imprisonment and alleged torture in Syria than they did in the Maher Arar affair.

"The complicity is far greater to the Canadian government than in Mr. Arar's case," the 35-year-old Syrian-Canadian engineer told CBC News on Wednesday from Ottawa...."


THE EMERGENCE OF A GLOBAL INFRASTRUCTURE FOR MASS REGISTRATION AND SURVEILLANCE

"...Finally, it is clear that the governments of Austria, Canada, Germany, Sweden, Turkey, and the U.K. have themselves sought to deport
terrorist suspects to countries where torture is a widespread or systemic problem, including Egypt, Russia, the Philippines, Russia, Sri Lanka, Syria and Uzbekistan. ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 02:33 PM

The difference, Dickey, is that Arar was a Canadian citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 02:36 PM

It is an accusation. Arar got ovet $10,000,000. People would say lots of things for that kinda cash.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:25 PM

Peace - I'm not sure what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:36 PM

Almalki accuses Ottawa of aiding Syrian officials. Syria itself has accused Ottawa of supplying information to them. One question: why the fuck should anyone believe Almalki or Syria? So far the statements by Almalki and Syria are accusations. A Commission is looking at it, and because if it happened it happened under a former government, the Comission has no percentage in not establishing the truth. However, until the Commissions findings are released, it is just piss in the wind as far as I'm concerned, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:31 PM

You're right, Peace. The Arar case and the Almalki case are quite different because Arar is a citizen and the others are not. However, its true that a Commission should be able to establish the truth of the allegations. I'm just glad that someone is dealing with it and it is not being swept under the carpet.

So, Dickey - What has the U.S. and/or Britain done to stop the outsourcing of torture?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:46 PM

What has Canada done?

"...Unfortunately this has already happened to three other Canadian citizens: Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad El-Maati and Muayyed Nureddin...."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:53 PM

Your link leads to the Arar case. That is history. Do not muddy the waters with bullshit, Dickey. Canada by paying ten million has agreed it was wrong. The top cop resigned. That has got nothing to do with the other guys who may have been wronged by Canada and may not have. The Commission will establish Canada's degree of guilt. Now, back to Guantanamo with its 500 prisoners . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: flattop
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:45 PM

According to the Royal Canadian Mounted Magpie, Canadians, per capita, are also more willing to pay up to one hundred bucks for creepy kiddy porn. Cops are looking for 103 Canucks but only 600 and some Americans in the latest case. Perhaps not enough Mudcat warmth for those nippy prairie nights.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 12:09 AM

I take it 500 of that 600 are in Guantanamo.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:19 AM

"Canada has a half dozen. The US has 500"

You dodged these two:

How many of those half dozen were detained on the battlefield?

How many of the 500 were detained in the US?

Here's a new one.

How many of the 500 are US citizens?

I take it you want to concentrate on what the US might have done wrong and not question if it is different from what Canada has done.

I think the word for that is hypocrisy.

Torture for 3 or more Canadian Citizens was outsourced to Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:28 AM

I see this thread hasn't become any less spirited. If you don't read it every day, it seems more like a soap opera. You know, the kind where you can miss 5 episodes, come back and feel that you haven't missed a thing. To me, that indicates that everyone has entrenched positions and no one is prepared to give an inch.       Flattop, I don't even try to watch the news, has there been another big kiddyporn bust? Some years ago one of the area perverts was charged in a big sweep, the guy had to be close to 7 feet tall and 350 pounds and I had to wonder how scared a kid would be seeing that giant approaching. There you go folks, something to get pissed about, distract you, let you step back and evaluate your position. Ding, starting round 1,218. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 06:20 AM

"I take it you want to concentrate on what the US might have done wrong and not question if it is different from what Canada has done."

OH. It's not about right or wrong, it's about CANADIAN right or wrong. Foolish me. Yes, Canada was wrong about Arar. So was the US. YOU shipped him to Syria, not us. Have a NICE day.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:05 AM

Dickey - How many times do you have to be told that the incident of the three others (aside from Arar) is now before the courts and that they are not Canadian citizens. You are comparing apples to oranges. The Arar case is different in many ways and thats why the situations are being investigated separately.

Whats the U.S. doing about the people they have handed over to be tortured? Who are they? Are they still imprisoned? How many have died. I think the U.S. govt. has alot of answering to do and the least you could do is start asking a few questions and demand some answers.

At least the Arars have had the courage to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:27 PM

"not Canadian citizens" I have read from several sources, including the Arar website quoted above, that they are Canadian Citizens.

http://www.amnesty.ca/themes/canada_no_security.php

"...Three other Canadian citizens – Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad El-Maati and Muayyed Nureddin – were also detained and tortured abroad. There are serious concerns about the complicity of Canadian agencies in what happened to them...."

So keep on saying they are not.

All you are doing is spouting Hypocrisy. All you want to do is criticize the US in a mean spirited, foul mouthed manner to cover up what Canada does.

Typical of a liberal peacenik who yells about of peace, love and understanding through a megaphone while shaking their fist in anger.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:46 PM

Just for the record: re: child-porn case - "while their European counterparts say they have identified 103 Canadian computer addresses, RCMP spokeswoman Sergeant Sylvie Tremblay said the force has so far received only 19, and is unsure about the cause of the large discrepancy."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070208.CHILDPORN08/TPStory/National

No doubt flattop would know better than RCMP spokeswoman Sergeant Sylvie Tremblay, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:04 PM

That post at 10:27 was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:21 AM

It appears that they may, in fact, be citizens. It was my understanding that they were landed immigrants. In any event, there cases are being investigated separately from Arar's and hopefully we will find out why the Canadian government felt justified in sending them to Syria.

That still leaves the U.S. to do some explaining in the Arar case. An apology would be appropriate but I hope Arar sues them for mental and physical anguish. He did nothing wrong. By suing them, perhaps we will find out about the role of Canada. Its not going to go away with the resignation of one RCMP big wig - I'm very glad that Arar has the determination to pursue this.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:14 AM

dianavan, Abdullah Almalki wasn't sent to Syria by Canada, I believe he was purportedly going to visit a sick relative there, when he was picked up at the airport by Syrian authorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:22 AM

Thanks, Metchosin, its hard to get the straight facts on a case thats before the courts.

I'm just so happy that Arar actually received an apology and compensation. I hope the others will also receive justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:37 AM

The following is freely available on the www.

Abdullah recently was invited [from 2006] to give a speech in London England at Amnesty International and Reprieive conference titled: "The Global Struggle Against Torture: Guantánamo Bay, Bagram and beyond"

Guantánamo Bay, Bagram and beyond

Torture is simply unacceptable. So too is the personal cost of the counter-terrorism measures being deployed in the name of security and freedom.

The conference from 19-21 November 2005, "The Global Struggle Against Torture: Guantánamo Bay, Bagram and Beyond" revealed a subversive operation of secret detentions, renditions, 'disappearances', and diplomatic assurances that all violate basic human rights. Such practices fuel the practice of torture and create division, endangering us all."

BTW, he IS Canadian. He was born in Damascus in 1971, emigrated to Canada in 1987 and became a Canadian citizen in 1991.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:40 AM

So, Dickey, what do you think he would have said about Guantanamo? Have you read The Bard? Ever hear of a petard?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:50 AM

However, Dickey, I am willing to await the Canadian inquiry into the treatment of those men. You on the other hand have remained strangely silent about Guantanamo, an institution you seem to be trying to deflect inquiry away from. Tell me this, Dickey: when will YOUR government follow Canada's lead and investigate the jailings of people there? OH, we don't want to talk about THAT do we? No. This is your typical 'I hate Canada' shit, prompted by I don't know what. My last words have to be these: "Get stuffed you sanctimonious arsehole." When your government has half the balls ours does to look into the stuff it does wrong then and only then will you and I have another word to say to each other. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:37 AM

Peace,,,, I realise that Dickey can be an irritating son of a bitch, but you seem to be taking it personal, surely you can't think he isn't laughing up his sleeve at your personal angst. You have made your position clear, he avoids the issues he doesn't feel comfortable with. Working yourself up into a lather isn't going to cause him to change and besides, what makes him so important that you're wasting your time with his obviously biased opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:58 AM

Trust me, able, I ain't in a lather, but thanks for the advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:07 PM

If only the unbiased posted here, the would be no thread.

All three "innocent" citizens were taken into custody in Syria. The charge is that Canada was involved by telling the Syrians what questions they needed answered while being interrogated, Syrian style.

Arar would never have been detained by the US without erroneous info from Canada. The US did send him to Jordan and then he was transported to Syria where he met the same fate as the other three.

I would like to know if The Canadians requested the US to send him to Jordan which seems possible to me.

I would also like to know why Canada did not ask that he be sent to Canada. That seems the most logical thing for them to do unless they wanted him sent to Jordan so he could be interrogated by the Syrians like the other three.

In any event these terrorism cases have many facets and swift judgments are not in the best interest of safety. Nothing is simple and clearcut in the Muslim world. There are a thousand of shades of gray between peaceful Muslims and radical Muslim extremists.

The thing that irks me is that to me it seems the majority of Muslims will allow the extremists to terrorize without even objecting to the bad name they give to the Muslim image as a whole. It is as if they are either afraid or they wouldn't mind if the whole world comes under Muslim dominance.

However if there was Muslim dominance, there would still be wars between the different sects of the religion like Shia and Sunni.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:37 PM

I, too, have alot of questions. As I said in the beginning post, our P.M. has stated, "..the United States has requested that Canada not push the United States to amend its records for Mr. Arar."

Why is that, Dickie? Its the right time to start asking a few questions about Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition and outsourcing torture. Canada has started the process. U.S. citizens have the perfect opportunity (with Canadian citizens right behind them) to make their country accountable. The Arar case has opened up the inquiry and I say its about time.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:44 PM

It was stated some time ago the the US has new reasons to keep Arar on the watch list. They want to share them with Canadian authorities but they have not responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:49 PM

"They want to share them with Canadian authorities but they have not responded."

Sources, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:37 PM

My apologies.....

I have not read this entire thread.

I have not followed the Arar "case".

I would appreciate someone knowledgible about this thread and/or this case answering a few questions, if they have time.

How long was Arar kept in Syria?

How was Arar tortured in Syria?

Why did Syria let him return to Canada?

Of course, if these questions have already been answered above, please just tell me that and I will read the whole thread.

Thanks in adavnce.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:47 PM

If indeed Canada 'out-sourced' torture to the bloody Syrians, I will write to Ottawa--not that that will do any good because they still haven't answered my e-mail about the submarine fire--and complain loudly. When my country and its elected representatives do bad stuff, I want the poeple who did it to get their pee pees slapped, big time. White wash don't cut it, IMO. But then neither does allegation or accusation, rumour or gossip. The Commission WILL establish the truth of this matter. Then and only then will I ask for someone's head on a platter. If the RCs have done it again, then I really do hope those who fabricated evidence or put spin on evidence face jail time. However, that aside, it seems that some Yanks don't think the same way about Guantanamo. Guantanamo is a blot on your democracy, and accusations about this country to your north (or west-southwest if yer in Alaska) do nothing to change the prison you keep in Cuba.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: flattop
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:00 PM

The TV news said 103 Canadians porn leads, no mention of only 19 real suspects. That's over five errors, which could destroy innocent lives, for each potential suspect? Remarkable international police work.

Perhaps the Austrians' eighty-four bum leads pointing at Canada were Royal Canadian Mounted IP addresses or Royal Canadian Mounted credit card numbers. These would have been used strictly for legitimate police work. Canadian police only gaze at porn or club a suspect senseless in the line of duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:05 PM

Unlike the CIA and FBI who drop the fuckin' ball completely. See events of 9/11. But then, let's not talk about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:19 PM

Ring any bells?

Ding.

dong!


But, anything to take our minds off it all, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM

In Canada, the news of this kind of thing gets out and gets dealt with by government. In your country, it gets stonewalled. So, other than that, how's things in the Cuban resort?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: flattop
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:29 PM

Little Hawk once flew to Havana.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:30 PM

Well, there's the Canadian connection right there. That guy has lots to answer for, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:35 PM

Since then Dat has responded and does not agree that the hew evidence is enough to keeP Arar on the watch list.

Here are some more names to ponder:
Secret Trial Detainee Mohammad Mahjoub Seeks Bail After 6 Years of Detention
"...Held Without Charge Since June, 2000, Mohammad Mahjoub Applies for Bail Monday, December 4, 2006...
...Mohammad Mahjoub, who has served the longest of any of the secret trial security certificate detainees (since June, 2000), heads to Federal Court on Monday, December 4 at 9:30 am in Toronto to seek release to his family. Held without charge or bail for more than six years, Mahjoub, a refugee from Egypt, has been held at Metro West Detention and now in Kingston's Millhaven Penitentiary on the basis of secret evidence neither he nor his lawyer can see or challenge...
...Mahjoub's incarceration has included lengthy spells in solitary confinement and a series of hunger strikes protesting lack of medical treatment for conditions contracted in prison. One hunger strike lasted 79 days....."

Security certificates and secret evidence
"...Mahmoud Jaballah says he's no terrorist and he's never been charged with any crime in Canada. But since 2001, Jaballah has been in a Canadian jail because the government of Egypt says he's part of a terrorist organization called al-Jihad. The Canadian government believes that and says he's not a legitimate refugee, so it's trying to deport him back to Egypt, where Jaballah says he will be tortured and killed..."

Urgent Action Message from the Campaign to Stop Secret Trials in Canada
"Stop the Illegal Deportation of Hassan Almrei. Almrei To Face Same Torture as Maher Arar if Canadian Government Has Its Way and Deports Him to Syria Within Two Weeks...
...Refugee Has Spent Over Two Years in Solitary Confinement in Toronto Prison on "Secret "Evidence" Neither He nor his Lawyer is Allowed to See"

Urgent Bail Support Required For Mohamed Harkat
""Mohamed Harkat has been detained under a Security Certificate since Dec. 10th, 2002 without any charges or access to the evidence. He has been held for 41 months without a fair and open trial. CSIS claims they have "so called" secret evidence against him. Our legal team has been kept in the dark since his arrest. He is not staying at Guantanamo North in Kingston area. He was granted bail on May 23rd under very strict conditions but his campaign is still short of the target for the bail money..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:44 PM

Forgot one:

Adil Charkaoui

"Adil Charkaoui is a Morocco-born permanent resident of Canada suspected by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service of having ties with the al Qaeda terrorist network.

He is one of five Muslim men detained in Canada since 2001 under a controversial law that allows detention of non-citizens declared to be a threat to national security, pending their deportation to their country of origin. Charkaoui was arrested in May 2003 and detained for 21 months without formal charge or trial. Access to his lawyer was restricted. Numerous legal challenges have been argued before the Canadian Federal Court, Federal Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada. He was released from custody on $50,000 dollars bail on 18 February 2005. His bail conditions included a curfew, electronic monitoring and designated chaperones for leaving his home..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:45 PM

Court refuses to order Harkat's release

Last Updated: Friday, December 30, 2005 | 12:06 PM ET

CBC News

Mohamed Harkat, an Algerian man who has been held in an Ottawa jail on a security certificate for three years, has had his latest application for release dismissed by a federal court.
The ruling was released Friday.

Justice Francois Lemieux could have released Harkat if he believed the Algerian would linger in custody indefinitely or did not pose a threat to national security.

But Lemieux ruled Harkat "has not satisfied me he will not be removed [from Canada] within a reasonable time."

Because Harkat failed to convince the judge on the first condition, Lemieux did not have to consider the issue of whether he posed a security risk if he were released.

Under a security certificate, a detainee can be held indefinitely without a trial, and the government can keep any evidence against him or her secret.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service alleges Harkat is a member of al-Qaeda who trained in Afghanistan and entered Canada as a sleeper agent.

Harkat, 36, is a refugee from Algeria. CSIS kept him under its scrutiny for five years before he was arrested in December 2002.

Along with claiming that he belongs to al-Qaeda, the spy service says he supports Afghan, Pakistani and Chechen extremists.

CSIS alleges that Abu Zubaydah, one of al-Qaeda head Osama bin Laden's chief lieutenants, identified Harkat as the operator of a guest house in Pakistan for extremists headed for Chechnya.

Harkat arrived in Toronto in 1995 from Malaysia, using a fake Saudi passport. He applied for refugee status claiming a fear of persecution by the Algerian government.

He moved to Ottawa, married and worked most recently delivering pizzas and pumping gas. His refugee status was granted in February 1997 and he applied for permanent residence the next month.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:48 PM

"Citizenship and Immigration Canada can remove a person considered to be a security threat by issuing a Security Certificate signed by the solicitor general and the minister of citizenship and immigration, and endorsed by a judge of the Federal Court.

When a security certificate is issued:


All other immigration proceedings are suspended until the Federal Court makes a final decision about the certificate.
Foreign nationals who are the subject of a Security Certificate are automatically detained. Permanent residents may be detained on a case-by-case basis.

If the Federal Court decides that the certificate is unreasonable, it is quashed. If the court decides that it is reasonable, the certificate becomes an order for removal of the person. The court's decision can't be appealed.

Since 1978, security certificates have been issued 28 times. The latest use was in November 2006 in the arrest of an alleged spy in Montreal."

Seems we issue one per year on average. Not exactly Guantanamo's stats.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:55 PM

However, that said, Amnesty has posted the following letter:

"The health and well-being of Security Certificate detainees at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre - Open letter
The Honourable Stockwell Day
Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0P8

2 February , 2007

Dear Minister,

Amnesty International is writing this open letter to you out of increasing concern about the health and well-being of Mahmoud Jaballah, Mohammad Mahjoub and Hassan Almrei, who have been on hunger strikes for more than eight weeks now at the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre (KIHC). We believe that the government can and must do more to respond to this mounting crisis.

These men are held under immigration security certificates and have all been detained in excess of five years. Their detention has truly become tantamount to being indefinite as they have limited choices: either remain detained while continuing to pursue legal challenges to the unjust procedure that governs their cases, or agree to be returned to countries where Amnesty International believes they face a serious risk of torture.

Amnesty International recognizes that a hunger strike can be a form of non-violent protest against an abuse of human rights. It comes as no surprise that these individuals, facing great stress and with no other effective options, have resorted to such action.

Numerous human rights organizations, legal academics, as well as expert United Nations human rights bodies such as the Human Rights Committee, the Committee against Torture and the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention have expressed serious concerns about the fact that the security certificate process fails to meet international standards governing detention and fair trials. They have also expressed concern with the government's position that it is justifiable to deport these men to countries where they are at risk of torture.

These concerns about lack of a fair process and risk of return to torture lie at the heart of the hunger strikes. Amnesty International has repeatedly called on Canada to reform laws and practice regarding security certificates and detention conditions for security detainees. We have also called for amendments to Canadian law in order to unequivocally ban the deportation of anyone to a country where they face a serious risk of being tortured. These men have felt compelled to take this desperate step as a result of the government's failure to address these serious human rights shortcomings.

Amnesty International has also highlighted concerns with respect to the nature of family visits, access to prison programs, access to medical care, regular exercise and outdoor access for the detainees. We have urged that an independent complaints process be instituted, to look into concerns about detention practices. The federal Correctional Investigator raised the concern that the transfer of these three men to the KIHC would result in the loss of "the benefit of a rigorous ombudsman's legislative framework to file complaints about their care and humane treatment while in custody."   That has indeed proven to be the case.

The current hunger strikes have raised concerns about the regular medical monitoring of the health of the detainees. It has been reported that there has not been any medical check-ups of these three men during the course of the hunger strikes. This is of grave concern given indications that their health is failing rapidly. The World Medical Association., in its 1992 Declaration on Hunger Strikes, highlighted the importance of daily medical visits to ascertain whether or not individuals wish to continue with hunger strikes.

Given the lack of an independent complaints process and the apparent failure to carry out ongoing medical monitoring, it is vital that the government move without delay to ensure there is impartial review of the allegations and demands made by the hunger strikers. Amnesty International requests that you:

urgently appoint someone to carry out that review; and
ensure that regular medical monitoring of these three men begins immediately and is not made subject to any arbitrary or unreasonable conditions.   
Sincerely,



Alex Neve
Secretary General
Amnesty International Canada
(English branch)

André Paradis
Directeur Général
Amnistie Internationale
Section canadienne francophone"

(IMO, having Stockwell Day in charge of anything more complicated than a Lego set is stupid on Canada's part.)

Dickey, do you feel as upset with the US detaining people under similar circumstances?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM

On the question of the Geneva Conventions, the brief argues, Judge Green's contention that Taleban detainees picked up in Afghanistan should have been presumed to have prisoner of war status is "inconsistent with the deference owed to the President as Commander-in-Chief" who had unilaterally decided otherwise.(6)

This brief is perhaps an unsurprising response from an administration whose outgoing Attorney General decried what he characterized as "intrusive judicial oversight and second-guessing of presidential determinations";(7) whose Justice Department formulated the position, accepted by the White House Counsel, that the President – who apparently believes that there are people who are "not legally entitled" to humane treatment(8) – could override the national and international prohibition on torture;(9) and whose Secretary of Defense has authorized interrogation techniques that violate international law and standards.(10) This is an administration that has sought unchecked power throughout the "war on terror" and shown a chilling disregard for international law. The USA's policies and practices have led to serious human rights violations and have set a dangerous precedent internationally.


USA's "war on terror" detainees, April 2005
(approximate totals/estimates)(11)
USA: Naval Brig, Charleston, South Carolina 2 "enemy combatants"
Cuba: Guantánamo Bay naval base 520
(234 releases/transfers)
Afghanistan: Bagram air base 300
Afghanistan: Kandahar air base 250
Afghanistan: other US facilities (forward operating bases) Unknown: estimated at scores of detainees
Iraq: Camp Bucca 6,300
Iraq: Abu Ghraib prison 3,500
Iraq: Camp Cropper 110
Iraq: Other US facilities 1,300
Worldwide: CIA facilities, undisclosed locations Unknown: estimated at 40 detainees
Worldwide: In custody of other governments at behest of USA Unknown: estimated at several thousand detainees
Worldwide: Secret transfers of detainees to third countries Unknown: estimated at 100 to 150 detainees
Foreign nationals held outside the USA and charged for trial 4
Trials of foreign nationals held in US custody outside the USA 0
Total number of detainees held outside the USA by the US during "war on terror" 70,000


The above is also from an Amnesty site. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 04:37 AM

gnu - Maher Arar was tortured in Syria for nearly four years. He was released because the Canadian Embassy pressured the Syrian Military Intelligence to release him after Maher's wife fought for truth and justice in Canada. Her struggle and determination should be an example for all of us.

Dickie - Who the **** is Dat? You have no credibility and no conscience. It is you, in fact, who are mean-spirited. I'd like to ignore you but I'm sure you will appear as a Guest with a new name.

Peace - Thanks for the research. I hope the Arar case serves as an example to the apathetic who think that they have no power.

Your quote, " Total number of detainees held outside the USA by the US during "war on terror" 70,000."

SHAME!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:49 AM

Thanks dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 11:16 PM

SHAME:

In Canada, nearly 23,000 Nikkei, or Canadians of Japanese descent, were sent to camps in British Columbia. It was the greatest mass movement in the history of Canada.

Though families were generally kept together in the United States, Canada sent male evacuees to work in road camps or on sugar beet projects. Women and children Nikkei were forced to move to six inner British Columbia towns.

On February 19, 1942, soon after the beginning of World War II, Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066. The evacuation order commenced the round-up of 120,000 Americans of Japanese heritage to one of 10 internment camps—officially called "relocation centers"—in California, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, and Arkansas.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 11:27 PM

"Recent settlement (s)

It should be noted, however, that since the settlement of the Japanese Canadian Redress, Canada also offered compensation to the Aboriginal Veterans in 2002. Similarly, in the year 2000, the federal government settled a compensation package with the merchant mariners. The government also settled compensation with the victims of the Thalidomide incidents and Hepatitis C in 1990 and 1998, respectively. Therefore, while the government declares its objection to further financial compensation, its actions, in these cases, present contradictions in its policy and practices."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: bobad
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 11:28 PM

"In 1988 redress for the Japanese Canadians was passed and the Prime Minister issued an apology for the miscarriage of justice that led to internment and incarceration. Yet the $21,000 of redress money hardly compensates for the lost years of incarceration, property confiscated, family separations and disruptions, and the invisible psychological scars and memories of racial injustices that remain."

http://www.csuohio.edu/art_photos/canada/canada.htmlhttp://www.csuohio.edu/art_photos/canada/canada.html

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 11:37 PM

SHAME:
The Sponsorship Scandal

"The program ran from 1996 until 2004, when broad corruption was discovered in its operations and the program was discontinued. Illicit and even illegal activities within the administration of the program were revealed, involving misuse and misdirection of public funds intended for government advertising in Quebec. Such misdirections included sponsorship money awarded to ad firms in return for little or no work, which firms maintained Liberal organizers or fundraisers on their payrolls or donated back part of the money to the Liberal Party. The resulting investigations and scandal affected the Liberal Party of Canada and the then government of Prime Minister Paul Martin. It was an ongoing affair for years, but rose to national prominence in early 2004 after the program was examined by Sheila Fraser, the federal auditor general. "

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 11:41 PM

Dickey, Dickey, Dickey. Your hatred for Canada is obvious. That's too bad. Want to talk about August 6, 1945 or August 9, 1945? Want to have a peek? Want to dig for crap? because I can find more on your country than you ever will on mine. I think you should take a good look at the place you live and ask a few questions. As a Canadian, there is not a single thing you've mentioned that has not drawn letters from me to newspapers, government bodies or organizations that attempt to effect change. You neglected to mention Grassy Narrows. It was ugly, and government knew. And they did nothing. But then, I guess, you wouldn't know about that. I also doubt you'd know about the present poisoning of Cree people in northern Saskatchewan caused by crap ending up in the food chain from Uranium City. I have lived with those people, and they are real people to me. What they are to you is fodder for your "I hate Canada" shit. Kindly fuck off and fix the place you live in. You do not care about people. You care about your arguments.

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. When you wish to try to effect positive change I will take you seriously. Until then, I will perceive you to be a guy who hasn't got the courage of what he thinks are his convictions. Hatred is not a conviction. And that;'s what it is with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 11:46 PM

SHAME ON YOU

'The story of the encounter between European settlers and America's native population does not make for pleasant reading. Among early accounts, perhaps the most famous is Helen Hunt Jackson's A Century of Dishonor (1888), a doleful recitation of forced removals, killings, and callous disregard. Jackson's book, which clearly captured some essential elements of what happened, also set a pattern of exaggeration and one-sided indictment that has persisted to this day.

Thus, according to Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a "vast genocide . . . , the most sustained on record." By the end of the 19th century, writes David E. Stannard, a historian at the University of Hawaii, native Americans had undergone the "worst human holocaust the world had ever witnessed, roaring across two continents non-stop for four centuries and consuming the lives of countless tens of millions of people." In the judgment of Lenore A. Stiffarm and Phil Lane, Jr., "there can be no more monumental example of sustained genocide—certainly none involving a 'race' of people as broad and complex as this—anywhere in the annals of human history."'

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:00 AM

"Real lives

Rabia is the wife of Majid Khan, a detainee transferred to Guantánamo from secret CIA custody

My husband was kidnapped over three years ago, and in this period I have not known anything about his whereabouts and how he is keeping (...) Recently I have found out that he has been transferred to Guantánamo. I am very happy that he's alive, but it's a shock because I've heard a lot about what happens there."

From Amnesty International.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM

"Children's Rights

Custody and Control
Conditions of Confinement in New York's Juvenile Prisons for Girls
This 136-page report provides an in-depth look at the abuses and neglect suffered by girls confined in two remote New York State juvenile facilities known as Tryon and Lansing. The facilities are operated by the New York Office of Children and Family Services (OCFS) and are the only two higher-security facilities in New York State holding girls."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:04 AM

"Women's Human Rights

Abuse of Women in Custody: Sexual Misconduct and the Shackling of Pregnant Women

Many states fail to adequately protect incarcerated women from sexual misconduct at the hands of corrections staff and allow the dangerous practice of shackling inmates during the third trimester of pregnancy -- including during labor and delivery. The following report examines the current laws, policies and practices in all 50 states, the District of Columbia and the U.S. Bureau of Prisons regarding custodial sexual misconduct (CSM) and the shackling of inmates who are pregnant or giving birth."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:05 AM

Capital Punishment in the USA

Capital Punishment in Canada

I'll do the comparisons tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:10 AM

Fuck it. Why not now.

Execution methods in the USA


Execution methods in Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:11 AM

The General and the Genocide

General Romeo Dallaire

by Terry Allen

Amnesty International NOW magazine, Winter 2002


Gen. Romeo Dallaire defied U.N. orders to withdraw from Rwanda. Without the authority, manpower, or equipment to stop the slaughter, he saved the lives he could but nearly lost his sanity.

In an indifferent world, Gen. Romeo Dallaire and a few thousand ill-equipped U.N. peacekeepers were all that stood between Rwandans and genocide. The Canadian commander did what he could-did more than anyone else-but he sees his mission as a terrible failure and counts himself among its casualties.
After a 100-day reign of terror, some 800,000 Rwandan civilians were dead, most killed by their machete-wielding neighbors. Dallaire had sounded the alarm. He'd begged. He'd bellowed. He'd even disobeyed orders. "l was ordered to withdraw...by [then-U.N. Sec. Gen. Boutros] Boutros Ghali about seven, eight days into it. .. and I said to him, 'I can't, I've got thousands' -by then we had over 20,000 people-'in areas under our control,"' Dallaire said in a recent interview with Amnesty Now. The general's hands, always moving, rose beside his face as if to block the memories. "The situation was going to shit....And, I said, 'No, I can't leave."'
The U.N. had sent Dallaire and 2,600 troops, mainly from Bangladesh and Ghana, to Rwanda to oversee a peace accord between the region's two main groups, Hutus and Tutsis. But on April 6,1994, eight months after the peacekeepers arrived, a plane carrying the Rwandan and Burundian presidents, both Hutus, was shot down over Kigali, the Rwandan capital. Hutu-controlled radio blamed the Tutsis and immediately began calling for their extermination, as well as for the murder of moderate Hutus considered friendly to the Tutsi "cockroaches." The broadcasts gave details on whom to kill and where to find them.

Rest of the story here.

BTW, he's Canuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:03 AM

This thread wasn't really intended to be a contest about which country has committed the most atrocities. The reason I said, "Give em shit," was because of what the U.S. did to a Canadian who was just passing through and the effort of our PM to clear his name. There are plenty of us who cannot avoid going through the U.S. on our way to other destinations. Its nice to know that Canada will actually go to bat for one of its citizens if the U.S. detains them.

Are you a U.S. citizen, Dickey? Would your country go to bat for you if you were detained by another country? I doubt it. You'd be wasting away in some foreign prison and your president and most citizens wouldn't even attempt to obtain justice.

Let the Arar case serve as an example and take your freedom back before its too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:31 AM

Sort of a mean sprited, narrow focus on one thing to justify an all encompasing attack of the US as a whole.

Yet If something Canada has done is put in the spotlight, it is called unfair.

I haven't lost my freedom nor am I in danger of loosing my freedom unless socialists have their way. In which case I will become another sheep in the flock of a benign, controling, socialist government.

Are you saying the US does not support it's citizens when they are detained by a foreign government?

Did Canada support Arar when he was detained by the US government as instructed to by the Canadian government? I would like to know the details pertaining to that.

I forgot to mention the exile of those poor Canadian citizens, the Acadians. The US did take the majority of them in I beleive.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:20 AM

Just as Canada took so many of your former slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:29 AM

It's beside the point, anyway - according to history the way I learned it - of course, that's suspect, because it was in Canadian schools, so no doubt it was all commie propaganda - anyway, according to the commie propaganda I learned in school, there was no Canada or United States in 1755 ...

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM

I believe slavery was a widespread, ancient practice that was used in some parts of the US and was abolished.

Slavery in Canada

"...However, chattel slavery (where slaves were the private property of their owners and their children were born into slavery as well) started with the European settlements, appearing soon after the colonies were founded in the early 1600s. Most of their slaves were used as domestic house servants, although some performed agricultural labour. Some of the slaves held by Europeans in Canada were of African descent, while others were aboriginal (typically called "panis.")

Under French rule:
The first recorded slave purchase occurred in New France in the region known today as Quebec in 1628. The purchase was of a young boy from Madagascar, who was given the name Olivier Le Jeune.
The citizens of New France received slaves as gifts from their allies among native peoples. Many of these slaves were prisoners taken in raids against the villages of the Fox nation, a tribe that was an ancient rival of the Miami People and their Algonquian allies.
By the early 1700s, Africans began arriving in greater numbers to New France, mainly as slaves of the French aristocracy. When the British took over in 1759, there were more than 1,000 slaves living in Quebec.

Under British rule:
The British aristocracy also brought African slaves. Just after the American Revolution ended in 1783, British Loyalists brought over 2,000 African slaves to British Canada. Approximately 1,200 of the African slaves were taken to Nova Scotia, 300 to Quebec (Lower Canada) and 500 to Ontario (Upper Canada). A few others were taken to Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton Island, and Newfoundland.

Historian Marcel Trudel has recorded 4,092 slaves throughout Canadian history, of which 2,692 were aboriginal people, owned mostly by the French, and 1400 blacks owned mostly by the British, together owned by approximately 1400 masters.

The region of Montreal dominated with 2,077 slaves, compared to 1,059 for Quebec City overall and 114 for Trois-Rivières...."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:23 PM

Ottawa's position on Darfur is, thus far, one of hesitation.



"You could call it a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.Almost by accident, Canada has found itself uniquely positioned among the United Nations' member states to put in motion a multilateral initiative that would end an ongoing genocide in Africa that the UN calls the worst humanitarian crisis of the 21st century.But we're not doing it..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:26 PM

So, Dickey, what are you doing to make the world a better place?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:32 PM

SLAVERY TODAY IN THE USA

"And that brings us to the United States. The slavery uncovered in the United States was not prostitution like in Brazil. It was not manufacturing work like in India and Pakistan. It was not household servant like in Kuwait. But it was worked a lot like them.

A guy would go around places where unemployed people would hang out and offer them jobs working on a farm. "It's just temporary" they would say. A farmer would need help picking his oranges or his cotton or his sugar cane just for a few weeks. They could all ride up there, work for a few weeks, and come back to the city with a few dollars in their pockets. People were picked up in all the major cities of Florida. They would load up in vans and station wagons and head out. They would go to places like Georgia and South Carolina.

When they got there they moved into a compound surrounded by fences and barbed wire. Vicious dogs patrolled all night. The bosses got them up early. They were worked hard all day long. They were charged room and board that was more than they got paid. They were encouraged to buy liquor and drugs on credit.

None of the workers was allowed to leave. When they worked, they had a overseers armed with shotguns. They were marched to work, and marched home again. They never saw a telephone. They never saw an outsider. And they picked cotton all day long. Sometimes it was other crops.

Sooner or later the cotton would be picked, and the workers would want to go home like he promised. But they could not leave. They owed a lot of money. So the boss took them out late at night and drove them to some other big farm where they needed help with the crops, and it started all over again.

These places were all on private property, far away from the road. They never saw any outsiders. No one knew they were there. If anyone knew, they didn't care. The people they worked for and that the boss got paid by were rich important people in their area. The workers were nobody.

Most of the slaves were poor black people, but some of them were poor white people too. In this one operation, it was actually a black man who was the slave driver.

Some of the people rescued had been slaves for years. Others were younger. One young black man talked about how now he finally knew what it was like for his ancestors. He said he would never pick cotton again, not for all the money in the world.

As you can see, there is still a lot of slavery in the world today. As long as people want to make money, some will want to steal. Slavery is the worst kind of stealing. They don't just steal your money. They steal your life, your freedom, everything.

It was not long ago when slavery was completely legal in the United States. It was accepted that people could be stolen, kept prisoner at gunpoint, and forced to work. It was accepted that you could be beaten or whipped if you didn't work fast enough.

Now these things are illegal, but the law still helps the slavemasters. Unions can't get to farm workers because they are on private property. The law keeps them out. So no one can find out that maybe they are being kept as slaves.

People own these giant plantations that need a lot of workers and make it pay to steal them. If these were small farms the workers would get paid. Some of these families have had these big farms ever since the days of slavery."

from here. Just for Dickey!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:36 PM

"Dickey, Dickey, Dickey. Your hatred for Canada is obvious."

I like Canada except for the attitude of some Quebecois and the holier than thou attitude towards the US coming from a few Canadians.

I have been there several times, I think is is clean, neat spacious, cordial etc. As a matter of fact I have been to all provinces except the NWT, Nunavit, PEI and Newfoundland

Now suppose I said that "your hatred for the US is obvious"?

I have seen Canadians streaming across the border in Maine to shop at the Walmart so something here in the US must be OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:37 PM

And what pray tell is Washington's position on Darfur?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:40 PM

Dickey: I happen to like the US. I did not start slagging it until you got pissy about Canada. In fact, I am one of the Canucks here who has spoken on behalf of the US on Mudcat, and very often too. As for Maine and people streaming across the border, "So what?"

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:41 PM

"according to Ward Churchill"

"Interim Chancellor Phil DiStefano stated, ""While Professor Churchill has the constitutional right to express his political views, his essay on 9/11 has outraged and appalled us and the general public."

Following an investigation of Churchill's past research, the University's Standing Committee on Research Misconduct recommended Churchill be sanctioned for repeated acts of "serious research misconduct." On June 26, 2006, CU Interim Chancellor Phil DiStefano issued a notice of intent to dismiss Churchill from his faculty position at the University of Colorado Boulder. Churchill has been "relieved of his duties by interim chancellor Phil DiStefano.."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:46 PM

"So, Dickey, what are you doing to make the world a better place?"

Putting things into perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:48 PM

"Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. "

Very peaceful statement there. Yell that the world over and peace will inevitably follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:50 PM

"you got pissy about Canada"

I think the title of this thread is quite pissy.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:02 PM

"The surprising thing is that it actually goes on in the United States.

Again, focus on the US. Ignore what it says about other countries. Only the US matters for some reason.

The article is titled "Modern Day Slavery Around The World"

Which you renamed to "Slavery in the US"

Newsweek Magazine (May 4, 1992) reports that slavery is widespread in two African countries, Mauritania and Sudan. In Mauritania, over 100,000 Africans are enslaved. Their families were made slaves by the sword during the 12th century invasions. In the centuries that followed, they accepted it as natural."

What are you doing to abolish slavery?

The American Anti-Slavery Group is a U.S.-based non-profit dedicated to the abolition of modern day slavery. While many believe that the slave trade ended some time ago, there are still over 27 million people held in bondage today.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:05 PM

"Did Canada support Arar when he was detained by the US government as instructed to by the Canadian government?"

I'd like to see your sources that say the Canadian government instructed the U.S. to detain Arar.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:13 PM

"I think the title of this thread is quite pissy."

Then take it up with the thread originator.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM

"I am very happy that he's alive"

Sounds poaitive to me.

"I've heard a lot about what happens there"

How much of that is truth and how much is hearsay, rumors or a product of the Al Qaeda handbook:

"Lesson Eighteen
PRISONS AND DETENTION CENTERS

2. Complain [to the court] of mistreatment while in prison. "

What have we "heard" about other prisons like the ones in Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM

"Again, focus on the US. Ignore what it says about other countries. Only the US matters for some reason."

Bullshit. Read the link associated with my post on that. It mentions many countries, NOT just the US. Keriste, you are so narrow-minded your scratch pads are 1/4" wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:22 PM

Your link "from here. Just for Dickey!" points to an article entitled "Modern Day Slavery Around The World"

The phrase "Slavery in the US" does not appear on that page, yet you say it is from that page.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:24 PM

Try reading the WHOLE article. The quoted stuff is FROM that page.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:25 PM

"An ABC TV show recently did an expose on slavery as it exists today. It focused on three countries: India, Brazil, and the United States."

The capitalized stuff was MY title. Notice that the title is NOT included in the quotation marks. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:37 PM

"Unlike the CIA and FBI who drop the fuckin' ball completely"

What did the Canadian equivalents to the CIA and FBI do with the ball? England? Spain? Indonesia?

How about other countrys of the world? Why not put the 10 million candlepower spotlight on them? Was there bombings in Europe? Indonesia?

When the US acts proactively to prevent terrorist attacks it is a blunder.

When the US does not act proactively to prevent terrorist attacks it is a blunder.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:44 PM

I take it that this was a vietnamese prison?

Tom Harkin, then an aide to the congressional group, convinced two of the Congressmen to investigate stories of torture in the Tiger Cages off the coast of Viet Nam (the French built them in 1939 to hold political opponents; similar ones in French Guinea became famous in the movie Papillion, starring Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman).

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:51 PM

Have a nice day, Dickey. I have no more time for you today. When you wish to discuss wrongs--even American wrongs--then perhaps we'll have some common ground. As it is we have a simple misunderstanding complicated by a fervent hatred for each other. Also, FYI, when Canada drops the ball--which it does--I have written to the existing government to express my displeasure. I personally doubt you have ever taken the time to do that with your government, either State or Federal.

Please notice that it was me who posted the first comprehensive statement about Canada's screw up in the Arar affair. You are so fuckin' blind that you can't even recognize that your country has buggered up. That makes you the worst kind of patriot--the same kind that spout "My country right or wrong" or "Kill a commie for Christ". Nope. No more time for you today.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:52 PM

"..In Canada, Diefenbaker's Conservative Party supported the U.S. policy in Vietnam.
His external affairs secretary stating in 1962 that "any action the U.S. has taken has been in a measure of defence against communist action."

In 1965, Paul Martin spoke for the Pearson (Liberal) government, stating that "the American forces were in their right in answering those attacks against them and South Vietnam as provided by section 51 of the United Nations Charter" (a section restricted to members of the UN, a status not held by "South" Vietnam.)

The Canadian ICC contingent twice offered legitimation for U.S. troop intervention and air war over North Vietnam; it furnished the U.S. with strategic intelligence about the location of enemy troop movements; and it acted as messengers by relaying threats issued from the American military. One Canadian retired military officer once stated that he was "bloody ashamed of some of the things I was required to do..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:01 PM

You are right about that, GUEST. I was twice at demonstrations in Montreal over just that involvement. We have had more than our share of sleazy politicians in Ottawa. As many as the USA in Washington. To quote me ol' Pappy, "There is NO point talking morals is a whore house."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:24 PM

Bell ringer

Another

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:30 PM

Both World Wars certainly brought out the propaganda from ALL the countries involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:31 PM

Genocide in Canada: The Untold Story

""I believe the conditions are being deliberately created in our Indian boarding schools to spread infectious disease. The death rate often exceeds fifty percent. This is a national crime."
Dr. Peter Bryce, Chief Medical Officer, Department of Indian Affairs, April 15, 1907

"Then he kicked her. She went rolling down the stairs. She just lay there. She wasn't moving; she wasn't breathing. I see that all the time."
Harriett Nahanee, eyewitness to the murder of Maisie Shaw, age 14, by Alberni Indian Residential School Principal Alfred Caldwell on December 24, 1946..."

At least here is one person that has the guts to say what he believes.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:33 PM

Peace:

I am glad to see you are considering ALL the countries involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:34 PM

Yes. And that issue has been and continues to be addressed by Ottawa. It's a smear on the country. No doubt about that. But other than an attack on Canada, what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:39 PM

I have addressed more than once on this thread issues and history in which I think Canada has acted dishonourably. I do not let my country off the hook simply because it's my country. You could take a lesson from that. I personally have no wish to pillory the USA. I lived and worked there for about five years. I am close friends with many Americans, but we don't allow politics to get in the way of those friendships. Canada has some seriously bad history to do with Native peoples, minorities, and we do have a language issue. We tend to behave as badly in war as any other country. War seems to bring that out in soldiers far too frequently. I do not pretend that my country has clean hands. You might stop pretending that yours does.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:45 PM

Overview of the death penalty worldwide in 2006

Looks like Iran tops the list. They hang people there for drug violations.

Saudi Arabia publicly beheaded 35 men and 4 women for murder and drug offences.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:47 PM

If ya didn't know where this was from, how would ya tell?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:48 PM

The last post was mine.

"You might stop pretending that yours does"

I am not pretending anything. I am merely placing this mean sprirted, holier than thou attack in the perspective that you lack.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:50 PM

Regarding the death penalty. The Khmer Rouge, Argentinian junta, Chilean military put everyone to shame. And what the world is presently allowing in the Sudan is shameful. Of course, people have become fodder for multi-nationals and 'national interests', whatever the disguise, and I suppose we all share in that shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:51 PM

Dickey--where did the attacks start?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:00 PM

From here maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM

The attack is in the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:04 PM

"If ya didn't know where this was from, how would ya tell?"

I don't know Guvnah.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:29 PM

The last post was mine.

I will admit that the US has made mistakes but I am not going to hang my head in shame because other countrys make mistakes.

I am not going to try to equate, quantify or justify one mistake against the other but merely point out the fact that everybody makes mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:30 PM

Dickey - Please reply.

I'd like to see your sources that say the Canadian government instructed the U.S. to detain Arar.

btw - I don't know where you are from, Dickey, but where I'm from, "give em shit" means stand up for yourself or talk back or don't take it or call them on their 'bs'. Calling the phrase 'mean-spirited' is stretching it a bit.

You go right ahead and defend the perfect America of your dreams. In my mind, the only way to preserve democracy is to question authority. Blind allegiance is just plain ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:49 PM

I don't have any. Do you? Why did the US retain Arar? Where are your sources? I need sources but you don't need sources?

As to you last mean spirited, attack the messenger statement, you can go right ahead and defend the perfect Canada of your dreams, expose your lack of knowledge and civility by attacking those that do not agree with you.

I repeat: I will admit that the US has made mistakes but I am not going to hang my head in shame because other countrys make mistakes too.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:58 PM

"I repeat: I will admit that the US has made mistakes but I am not going to hang my head in shame because other countrys make mistakes too. "

Better we all try to get our respective countries to stop making the same mistakes again and again. Now we have common ground. Thank you, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:39 PM

Yes, Dickie, you need sources.

1. You say Canada instructed the U.S. to detain Arar.

Proove it.

The U.S. questioned Arar based on information supplied by the RCMP.
The U.S. sent him to Jordan and then to Syria to be tortured, Canada did not.

The Canadian government found that he was innocent. The U.S refuses to be held accountable for their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:43 AM

I was hasty in making that assertion. However the US detained him based on information coming from Canada. And Canada tipped off the US that he was entering the US through Vienna.

Now, If you have sources saying anything different let's see them.

The US sent him to Jordan. Jordan sent him to Syria. Where did Canada say to send him?

If Canada did not want the US to detain him why didn't they say let him go on to Canada and we will detain him. Apparently they wanted him sent to Syria to be Interrogated there.

You have to know the actions of Canada before you can lay this at anybodys feet but it appears you know very little and you are not interested in finding out.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:10 AM

That I agree with. Because it jives with the Top Cop having his resignation accepted. However, when the Government found out they did their best to get it fixed. And that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:32 AM

"Apparently they wanted him sent to Syria to be Interrogated there."

I'm not so sure about that but, even so, at least there has been an apology and compensation for Arar. Which takes us right back to the refusal of the U.S. to amend its records which is how this thread started.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:41 AM

When one country notifies another that there is a suspected terrorist entering their country, do thay just leave it at that?

Wouldn't they say something like "let us know when you get him" or "hold him for questioning" or something of that nature?

There must have been some instructions given along with the information. What were they? If the Canadians did not want him "interrogated" in Syria Wouldn't they have said so?

In the unlikely even that there were no instructions given, it would mean "we don't want him in Canada" and/or "do whatever you usually do with suspected terrorists".

These details are absent.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:11 AM

"Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms forbids Ottawa from deporting anyone to a country where that person may face torture."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/15/AR2007021502172.html

"But under Canada's "security certificate" program, the government can detain and deport immigrants without filing charges and without providing them or their lawyers with evidence if they are deemed a threat to national security."

Three who have been detained are now free on bail. One of them is under what amounts to house arrest.

Lets hope that all of the detainees will have their cases reviewed and that the U.S. will follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 02:56 PM

"THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT ARE LIARS"

"PARIS, 26 July. (IPS, with reports from Nicholas Read and Petti Fong of the Vancouver Sun) The family of Keyvan Tabesh, a young Iranian shot and killed by a Port Moody police officer on 14 July, expressed shock at the attitude of the Iranian government trying to use the incident as a mean to cover up the death of Ms. Zahra Kazemi, the 54 years-old Iranian-Canadian photojournalist.

On Friday, Iran's Foreign Affairs Minister Kamal Kharrazi said that his ministry has launched an immediate probe into the killing of the young Tabesh and injuring a friend, Amir Aqa'i by the Canadian police.

Family members say they had no idea the Iranian government was going to use the death of their 18-year-old son and brother to deepen a diplomatic incident with Canada.

"We were surprised", said Keyvan's sister, Rita, in an interview from Burnaby. "We never talk to the government".

"The problem is between Keyvan's family and the police", she said softly, but with emotion. "It is a social problem, not a political problem".

Keyvan, 18, was shot by a Port Moody police officer when he approached the officer with a machete in his hand.

Amir, who has recovered from his wound, was not available to comment Thursday, but his father, who declined to give his first name, said he agreed with the Tabeshes that what happened to his son was a matter for Canadian, not Iranian, authorities.

"The Iranian government are liars", Aqa'i's father said. "This is not Iran's business. This happened in Canada, not Iran and It's a Canadian problem, not an Iranian problem".

Aqa'i said he and his wife were "very, very upset" when they heard the news about the Iranian government involvement. "You have to know we will solve this problem in Canada", he said. "We love Canada".

But Kharrazi stressed that Iranian foreign ministry would employ all its capacity and implement all diplomatic instruments to clarify the bitter incident and safeguard the rights of all Iranian nationals.

Tehran had also accused Ottawa to order the press not to report the "murder" of the young Iranian. The Foreign Affairs spokesman had said that the "horrifying killing" has created "fear and horror" among the Iranian community in Canada.

The Tabeshes, arrived in Canada on 2000 and are landed immigrants with family members still in Iran.

Kharrazi, reported by the official news agency IRNA, returning the table against Canada, said that Iran found incomprehensible the comparisons made by the Canadian department of foreign affairs between the deaths of Zahra Kazemi and Keyvan Tabesh.

Iranian jurists and observers noted that Iranian statements concerning the killing of Keyvan was "quite similar" to those used by Ottawa with Tehran in the case of the death of Ms. Kazemi while in the custody of the authorities.

Canada recalled its Ambassador from Iran following the burial of Ms. Kazemi in her hometown of Shiraz, in southern Iran, in spite of demands by her son, Stephen Hachemi and the Canadian government to have the body transferred to Canada for autopsy.

The Foreign Affairs Minister further stressed that the preliminary and hasty comments made by Ottawa officials in this regard was not a clear explanation but rather a justification for the indefensible act of Canadian police in murdering the Iranian national.

Asked why Tehran waited more than a week to raise the issue with the Canadians, Kharrazi accused the Canadian government for having failed to carry out its diplomatic duty to immediately notify the Islamic Republic of the incident.

"Noting that Iran was waiting for clear and convincing explanations in this regard, Kharrazi voiced his ministry's insistence upon having detailed, speedy and just investigations into the bitter case and having the person or persons responsible for it tried and punished", the Agency quoted the Minister.

Ken Taylor, a former Canadian ambassador to Tehran between 1979 and 1980, said the Iranian government's call for transparency is "outrageous".

"It's total mischief and absolute nonsense to try and link the two cases together", said Taylor, adding "It weakens their own case by taking this step".

Taylor said the police investigation into the Port Moody shooting is going to be transparent and will follow a set of procedures because the course of justice in Canada is subject to rules of law.

Rejecting Iranian claims, Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham expressed Saturday the hope to see the Iranians carrying "same thorough and open" investigations in the case of Ms. Kazemi as the Canadians are offering in the case of the late Keyvan.

Canada's Foreign Affairs Ministry spokesman Reynald Doiron invited Iran on Friday to send observers to Canada to oversee the police investigation into Tabesh's death.

"We are ready to offer them complete and unfettered assistance in communicating with the authorities", he said.

Rita and Keyvan's father, Nasser, a surgeon, both said Keyvan's death was not the business of the Iranian government, and they didn't want what happened to him to be used for political purposes. "We don't want the government to use our family", Rita said. "We just want to know why the police killed our brother.

"We just want justice for our son," said Nasser. "We are not a political family. We are living in Canada now and we want justice in Canada".

Keyvan's mother, Forough Jabalameli, has been quoted as saying her son did not know he was being confronted by a policeman because the officer was dressed in civilian clothes and driving a vehicle without police markings.

Pari Sa'idi, a spokeswoman with the Iranian-Canadian Community of Western Canada, said the Iranian government's comments are in direct retaliation for the Canadian government's demand for answers in Zahra Kazemi's death.

"This is bullying and the Canadian government should not buy it. They're covering their crime. Whatever happened here will be thoroughly investigated", she said Thursday.

Sa'idi, who left Iran in 1985, said she remains too fearful to return to visit her family. Relatives and friends still living in Iran tell her the country remains a virtual prison. "You can close your eyes, shut your mouth and go back to see your family. And if you do see something or say anything they don't like, they'll torture you", she said.

"The Iranian government's suggestion that the investigation into the Port Moody shooting may not be transparent shows poor knowledge of how the Canadian justice system works", Inspector Chris Beach, who is in charge of the Vancouver Police Department's major crimes section told journalists.

Port Moody Police Chief Paul Shrive said the homicide investigation is continuing into Tabesh's shooting and witnesses are still being interviewed. "The attempts by any individuals whether in this country or outside to put any political spin will just not be entertained by us", he added.

The unidentified officer who fired the shots joined the force two years ago from the RCMP and has 25 years of policing experience. He is on leave.

Police say Keyvan had earlier struck another vehicle with a machete and that the police officer followed the car in which he was riding into the Port Moody cul-de-sac where the shooting occurred."

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2003/Jul-2003/iran_canada_relations_26703.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 04:23 PM

You're really grasping at straws these days.

What has this to do with Maher Arar?

btw - Do you like Martins? Live in Chicago? Play banjo?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:58 PM

I thought it had to do with Canada giving shit. Does Canada give a shit?
Maybe Canada should be giving Iran shit instead of having their citizens urging people to give shit to the US.

"INDEPTH: ZAHRA KAZEMI
Iran's changing story
CBC News Online | Updated November 16, 2005

Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi died in Iranian custody on July 11, 2003, almost three weeks after she was arrested for taking pictures outside a prison during a student protest in Tehran.

Two days later, Iran's official news agency reported that Kazemi had died in hospital, after suffering a stroke while she was being interrogated. On July 16, 2003, the story changed. Mohammad Ali Abtahi, Iran's vice-president, conceded that Kazemi died as a result of being beaten.

Later, the Iranian government would charge an Iranian security agent in Kazemi's death. He was acquitted of a charge of "quasi-intentional murder. In July 2004, Iran's judiciary said the head injuries that killed Kazemi were the result of an "accident."

The case stayed under the radar screens of most Canadians until March 31, 2005, and the stunning revelations of Shahram Azam, a former staff physician in Iran's Defence Ministry. He said he examined Kazemi in hospital, four days after her arrest.

Azam said Kazemi showed obvious signs of torture, including:

    * Evidence of a very brutal rape.
    * A skull fracture, two broken fingers, missing fingernails, a crushed big toe and a broken nose.
    * Severe abdominal bruising, swelling behind the head and a bruised shoulder.
    * Deep scratches on the neck and evidence of flogging on the legs.

Azam left Iran in August 2004, saying he was seeking medical treatment in Finland. He later went to Sweden and got in touch with Kazemi's son, Stephan Hachemi. With the help of Canadian lawyers, Hachemi helped Azam and his family get to Canada. He was granted landed immigrant status as a refugee sponsored by the government of Canada.

After Kazemi's death, Hachemi demanded that Iran return her body to Canada for burial – but Iran refused. He has also been critical of the federal government, saying Ottawa did not do enough to help his mother. He has demanded that Canada take the case to the International Court of Justice.

Spring 2003:Kazemi leaves Canada for Iran.

June 23, 2003, 5:40 p.m.: Kazemi is arrested while taking photographs outside Evin prison in Tehran during student-led protests. She is later taken into custody and interrogated by police, prosecutors and intelligence officials for 77 hours.

June 27, 2003, 12:20 a.m.: Kazemi is admitted to Baghiatollah hospital in Tehran.

July 3 or 4, 2003: Iranian officials inform Kazemi's family that she's been hospitalized.

July 7, 2003: Officials with Canada's Foreign Affairs Department visit Kazemi in hospital, the first of three such visits before her death.

Kazemi dies in Tehran hospital while under guard.
» CBC STORY: Canadian arrested in Iran brain dead after beating

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kazemi/

Dianavan: Why don't you grab a camera, visit Iran and bring us back some photos of their wolderful system of government?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:04 AM

Canada did give 'em shit and two Iranian intelligence agents who had interrogated Kazemi were charged with complicity in her death. The Teheran prosecutor's office released a statement reading in part, "The charges levelled against the interrogators, who are said to be members of the Intelligence Ministry, are announced as complicity in semi-intentional murder."

You'll have to dig a little deeper, Dickey.

Try to stay on topic, you ugly pervert.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:32 AM

Then they were pardoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:37 AM

"Governments committing gross violations of human rights routinely send representatives to council sessions to stifle criticism or denounce the actions of states with far better records. For example, Iran sent the man responsible for the torture and murder of Zahra Kazemi, a Canadian-Iranian journalist, to represent it at the council's inaugural session last June, and this week it sent Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki, the person responsible for organizing the December Holocaust-denial conference in Tehran. "

from

http://www.stljewishlight.com/commentaries/288569735362733.php

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:08 AM

Peace - Are you trying to hijack this thread?

What has this to do with Maher Arar?

If you want to talk about Iranian human rights, start a thread about it. I doubt if you'll find anyone who disagrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:12 AM

You hijacked another thread by inserting the Israelis for no damned good reason. Take a pill and relax.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:01 PM

It was not an attempt to hijack a thread and as you know when it comes to the Middle East, Israeli concerns cannot be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:15 PM

Canada's Muslims The Question of Integration

By Dr. Mohamed Elmasry President, The Canadian Islamic Congress

In light of the arrest of a group of young Muslims in Canada, the president of The Canadian Islamic Congress, Dr. Mohamed Elmasry, discusses the role of his organization in promoting the process of integrating the Muslim community.

The Muslim men arrested in Toronto recently are innocent until proven guilty. But if any of them is proven guilty in a court of law, then I hope and pray that Canada's Muslims will not be found guilty by association.

But then the question will be why a few Canadian Muslim youth were trying to make a political statement using violence instead of the peaceful means available in a liberal democracy like Canada.

To my knowledge, there is no academic research done in Canada or any other Western country to address the social aspects of this problem. The Canadian Islamic Congress (CIC) urged the federal government in 2003 to allocate research funding to academia to do the needed research in partnership with the community, but we were turned down.

Today the government spends on the policing side of the problem but zero dollars on well-documented university research.

Tired of waiting for the government to fund research, the CIC launched 2 years ago its "smart integration" project using its limited resourses.

Minorities are usually consciously or unconsciously excluded from full participation in the life of the country. As a result, they become self-conscious social units sharing a sense of belonging to a group that sees itself as distinct from society's dominant majority...."

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Muslim_Affairs/Americas/PoliticsEconomy/2006/06/01.shtml

For US Muslim Girls, Hijab No Obstacle

By Sahar Kassaimah, IOL Correspondent

WASHINGTON — For many Muslim girls in the United States, hijab is no obstacle whatsoever to enjoy their lives, but rather a source of strength, pride and a tool to spread correct information about much-stereotyped Islam.   

"I've been wearing my hijab for more than five years; since I was a fifth grader and I believe nothing has changed between me and my friends or classmates after I covered my hair," Huda Rabia, a Californian tenth grader student, told IslamOnline.net Friday, February 9.

"In the beginning they were all curious to know what this scarf is and why I am wearing it. They had tens of questions but after I answered all of them, they never asked me about it again."

During the few recent years, a debate has been raging in the West about Muslim women's right to wear hijab in public.

Describing it as a religious symbol and not an obligatory dress code as Muslims believe, France has triggered the controversy in 2004 by adopting a bill banning the hair veil in state schools.

Shortly afterwards, other European countries, chiefly Germany, followed the French lead.

But in the United States, it is a different story.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:19 PM

What is your point, Dickey?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:19 PM

I left out one souce for the last post: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1170877836397&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout

Canadian Muslims Face on Campus Racism

By IOL Staff

CAIRO — Canadian Universities are failing to accommodate the needs of Muslim students or tackle the chilly climate of discrimination they face, according to a new report by the Canadian Federation of Students (CFS).

"It's clear that every day Muslim students face both overt and subtle forms of Islamophobic discrimination on Ontario campuses," Jesse Greener, CFS Ontario Chairperson, said in a press release accompanying the report.

The 29-page report asserted Muslim students are the target of incidents of hatred and discrimination on campus.

Some Muslim students were called a terrorist and accused of being associated with Taliban and of carrying a bomb, it said.

The CFS, which is comprised of more than 500,000 students across Canada, said that hijab-clad students were more often targeted with incidents of hatred.

One Muslim student said her veiled friend was pushed into a busy street and called a "stupid Paki."

In another incident one University of Toronto Muslim student had a flyer for a rally in support of Denmark in the cartoon controversy shoved at her in a washroom.

When she threw the flyer out, she was then told to "Go back to [your] f---ing country and bomb it."

In another incident, a Pakistani students association at George Brown College was asked in an e-mail whether funds raised for earthquake relief were really for terrorist training.

Other Muslim students reported being called "witches," "ninjas" and "nuns."

The CFS report said that many Muslim students continue to feel "under the microscope" since the 9/11 attacks.

Insensitive

The report also said that Canadian universities continue to fail to meet the religious needs of Muslim students.

"A general 'failure to accommodate' was the most frequently identified problem by Muslim students in many facets of campus life," said Ausma Malik, Task Force member and student at the University of Toronto.

"From a lack of appropriate foods on campus and inadequate prayer space to inflexible academic policies that are often at odds with religious obligations, Ontario's Muslim students often face a fundamentally different learning environment than other students."

The CFS report said that Canadian universities failed to recognize Muslim holidays, provide halal foods or suitable prayer rooms.

It pointed out that prayer rooms in many institutions are too small, overcrowded or located in inconvenient spots.

Muslim students complain that they were forced to perform ablutions in public washrooms because their university didn't provide washing facilities by the prayer rooms.

"In the absence of prayer space, Muslim students who pray in stairwells or library carrels fear harassment and even assault."

The report said that female students complain of not being able to use pool or gym facilities because there were no women-only hours or because windows made the classes visible to the public.

Muslim students also reported feeling "alienated" at orientations and social events that are often fuelled by alcohol...."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1173695229366&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:26 PM

That proves it: life is much, much better for Muslims in the US than in Canada! Thank you, Dickey, for the trouble you took with the cut-and-paste.

Don't let the word get out, though, or all our Muslim citizens are going to be sneaking across the border to get out of this frozen gulag and into the Land of the Free.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:32 PM

Thanks, meself. "...life is much, much better for Muslims in the US than in Canada!"

I was wondering what Dickey was trying to say.

I suppose I could cut and paste more articles about the number of Muslims being tortured and held without charge by the U.S. but what's the point? Dickey is quite sure that the U.S. treats Muslims better than Canada does.

But, of course, the world knows differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:53 PM

Just like the Mexicans do.

And all this stuff was posted by Muslims so they must not be to worried about alleged abuse by the US.

Exclusive swimming pools for Muslim women in the U.S.

This might come as a surprise to everyone but it is a 'dream come true' for Muslim women across United States. Recently in New Brunswick NJ., exclusively for the Muslim women community, the Cook/Douglass Recreation Center pool threw open its swimming pool.
Large number of women along with their daughters are flooding the recreation center every Sunday. They come down all huddled with their swimsuits and other accessories, with a stylish gym bag hanging down their shoulders...."

http://www.instablogs.com/tags/muslim-women/3/

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:55 PM

Michigan County Pool Allows Muslim Girls to Cover Up While Swimming
Himadree Himadree, Delhi, INDIA

Perhaps this is for the first time ever in Michigan that a girl from Muslim community has led to a change in the general laws of the recreation centre.

14-year-old Jumanah Saeedeh is just like any another teenager. She likes doing everything like her peers but the only difference is that she is a Muslim girl and likes to wear the hijab.

A student of seventh grade, one day Jumanah went for a field trip along with her classmates to a public swimming pool. Since she believed in the rituals and practices of Islam religion, she wore fully covered dress and she dived into the pool donning her hijab.

Nevertheless, Jumanah's action was rebuked by the park supervisor, saying that is was against the policies: she can't swim in her 'street clothes'.

At that point, the young girl couldn't retaliate but soon she approached the influential Muslim leaders, and a civil rights attorney.

Ultimately, this girl won her game as for the first time ever a public pool changed it laws so that it can accommodate more girls like Jumanah who want to adhere to their religious sentiments even while going for a dive..."

http://www.themuslimwoman.org/page/7/

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:16 PM

Saudi Woman Joins NASA

The first Saudi Arabian citizen to work for NASA in the United States is a woman, reported the Kuwaiti paper Alseyassah July 18. Machael el-Shamemre, 22, just graduated from Florida Institute for Technology in Melbourne, Fla., with a degree in astronomical engineering. Shamemre will work in a team producing a rare and precise weather satellite for meteorological information.

"I will do my best in order to show the world that the Saudi Arabian woman is capable of doing a great job in different fields of work for her strong will and her ambition," Shamemre said. "I want the girls of my country to know that nothing can stand in front of their success as long as they want to prove themselves within their traditions and their religion."

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm?aid=2834

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:23 PM

U.S. Muslim Women Weigh Anti-Islam Firebrand
Run Date: 07/16/06
By Brenda Gazzar
WeNews correspondent

LOS ANGELES (WOMENSENEWS)--Wafa Sultan believes she turned a new page in Islamic history with just six words.

While debating an Islamic sheikh on an Arab news network last summer, and growing incensed at being repeatedly interrupted, the feisty Syrian-born writer and activist said she had no choice but to scold him sternly in Arabic: "Shut up! It is my turn."

"It is by itself a message to Muslim women," a passionate Sultan tells Women's eNews during a meeting in the brightly colored living room of her home near Los Angeles. "It is time to stand up and tell your men shut up . . . because you have been making decisions for me for 1,500 years."

The 48-year-old brunette with a commanding voice has sparked intense interest in the West for her outspoken criticism of Islam, the world's second largest religion.

While Sultan's focus on women's issues has received less attention in the West, she considers it one of her top priorities. Sultan argues that women in the Middle East are hostages to their religion and culture and believe they are less than men. The most bothersome thing, she says, is that "they are slaves, but they believe they are free."

Sultan--who describes herself as simply a secular human being--says she hopes to become the "savior" of Muslim women.

But few Muslim women would welcome such a rescue attempt, says Sabiha Khan, a 28-year-old Muslim woman who recently finished a five-year stint as the spokesperson for the Council on American-Islamic Relations of Los Angeles. Khan says that while Sultan may have captured the attention of Western media many Muslim women consider her mistaken and irrelevant to their community.

"I don't believe I am less than a man," says Khan. "I am not a slave. I am a very educated Muslim woman who believes in her religion with all her heart." Millions of Muslim women feel the same way, she added...."

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm?aid=2834

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:24 PM

Watch out down there! I just saw a tobaggan-load of Muslims coasting full-tilt toward the border!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM

Life's funny for Muslim mom
By Joey Bunch
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 05/18/2006 03:31:16 AM MDT

Castle Rock - Rubi Nicholas' life is a sitcom waiting to happen: a working mom, a stay-at-home dad, two precocious kids, a Muslim family trying to fit into a white neighborhood in a post-9/11 world.

She would be the star, of course, but the TV deal would bring America's newly crowned "funniest mom" a new set of co-stars..."

http://www.denverpost.com/frontpage/ci_3835288#

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:52 PM

On Little Mosque on the Prarie I heard a funny line

father: you look like a protestant in those clothes!
daughter: Dad, you mean prostitute.
father: NO I meant Protestant.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:59 PM

Saud Arabia: woman selected to hone her leadership skills in US

25-04-2006

By Maha Akeel

JEDDAH, Arab News — A Saudi woman has for the first time been chosen to participate in a US State Department program that seeks to offer an opportunity for women leaders to interact with Fortune 500 companies.

Soha Aboul Farag is a banker with 17 years of experience. She was chosen out of ten candidates from the Western Region to participate in this one-month program. She will join 25 others from around the world in the program that kicks off on April 30 in Washington...."

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=10956

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:17 PM

There go another bunch, on skates this time - heading south!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:29 PM

The trouble is, meself, they might have trouble crossing the border.

They might be shipped to Syria and tortured because the guy who signed as a reference on their rental agreement may have been raising funds for Hezbollah or some other 'terrorist' organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:43 PM

Dickie is the ultimate shithead. Why keep feeding him?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:39 PM

Kinda like feeding the monkeys at the zoo - you know you're not supposed to, but it's too much fun to resist!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:55 PM

Dianavan:
"Dickey - How many times do you have to be told that the incident of the three others (aside from Arar) is now before the courts and that they are not Canadian citizens. You are comparing apples to oranges."

Maher Aarar website:
"Unfortunately this has already happened to three other Canadian citizens: Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad El-Maati and Muayyed Nureddin. The similarities between their cases and mine are striking. We were all detained at the same branch of the Syrian military intelligence, tortured by the same people and asked questions that would be of interest to Canadian police and security agencies. It is my hope that the government acts on its promise and holds an independent review of their cases, as recommended by Justice O'Connor in his report."

Evidence Grows That Canada Aided in Having Terrorism Suspects Interrogated in Syria
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS New York Times

"OTTAWA, Sept. 14 - A judicial inquiry here is turning up evidence that Canadian police and intelligence agencies solicited and used information that was obtained from at least four Canadian citizens Leading rights campaigners say they are dismayed by evidence of what they characterize as a Canadian policy of condoning the torture of citizens while pressing for human rights in other countries...
The evidence raises all sorts of troubling questions," said Alex Neve, secretary general of Amnesty International Canada. "The concern is, do we have a Canadian version of the notorious American practice of extraordinary rendition?"..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:56 PM

As I said . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:19 AM

You're right, Peace. He's come full circle and is just spinning his wheels.

Later...

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 01:32 AM

Dianavan: Are they Canadian citizens or not? Maher Arar says they are. Amnesty international says they are.

"Mr. Almalki, a Canadian citizen, holds a high school diploma from Lisgar Collegiate and an engineering degree from Carleton University. His five children -- he has another due in January -- have grown up in Ottawa. He wants answers for them and for Canadian Muslims like them."

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=09fc9e93-5de7-4e3f-8a3e-1c12ef67f3fb

"CBC News has learned that Muayyed Nureddin - a Canadian citizen"

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/01/14/nureddin040114.html

"Ahmad El Maati is a Canadian citizen, originally from Egypt"

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2006/200612/20061213.html

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:00 AM

My post from Feb. 09 - "It appears that they may, in fact, be citizens. It was my understanding that they were landed immigrants. In any event, there cases are being investigated separately from Arar's and hopefully we will find out why the Canadian government felt justified in sending them to Syria."

You do like to go around in circles, little Dickey! That was over 2 months ago. Did you know that perseveration is a sign of arrested mental development?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Ding dong
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 10:58 AM

If you keep feeding him he will keep coming back.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:07 PM

The circles are caused by your refusal to answer. You drum up excuses for not answering and try to discredit the person that asks.

If I were to say such a thing it would be a lie. If you say it it does not matter because it was said 2 months ago.

For example the US military said an Iranian visited the 5 Iraninas detained by the US in Iraq. Then they corrected it
"On Wednesday, US military spokesman Major General William Caldwell told reporters that a team from the International Committee of the Red Cross met the five detained Iranians and that one of the visitors was "an Iranian."

But on Friday, the military clarified that no Iranian had been in the ICRC team that visited those held.

"The ICRC committees that visited the five Iranians detained in Irbil on two occasions did not contain an Iranian national," military spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Christopher Garver said in a statement.

"One of the two committees contained an individual who speaks Farsi and lived in
Iran, but he is a British citizen by birth.""

You said that was a lie.

I don't think you have the facts you need to direct other people to give shit to America and you ignore similar behavior by the Canadian Government. If you read the Arar report you will see that things were hevilt redacted for security reasons.

While I can't say it is true, I think it is possible that The Canadian officials directed that Arar be sent to Syria. If not. why wouln't they ask for him to be sent to Canada. If they did ask for him to be sent to Canada and the US refused they would certainly say so.

"...But buried deep, in most stories at least, is what the public isn't seeing. Sprinkled throughout the public version of the report are more than 50 sets of three asterisks. Each set represents an omission -- a decision by the government that the hidden words could damage Canada's national security or foreign relations.

And those are only the visible cuts. O'Connor had already stripped the public report of any material he thought represented a threat to national security. That material was bundled together with the public report to create a second, private-eyes only, document.

But the government demanded O'Connor go further. Before the public document was released, officials made 53 additional cuts..."

http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/09/22/ArarReport/

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:25 PM

As you know, from the first post, I was referring to Harper's remark.

"Now I understand that the United States has requested that Canada not push the United States to amend its records for Mr. Arar.

Canada fully understands, appreciates and shares the United States' concerns about security.

However, this government – the government of Canada – has every right to go to bat for one of its citizens when the government believes a Canadian is being unfairly treated by another country."

In regard to the five Iranians. Yes, when you post old information that has already been refuted, you are knowingly quoting misinformation. Its either a lie on your part or you are just lazy.

I think you are both lazy and a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:02 PM

"you are knowingly quoting misinformation" That is your assertion.

On Feb 7 you were informed that they were citizens and given a source but after two nonths you still insisted I was wrong. Can I accuse you of knowingly quoting misinformation and therefore a liar?

I could but I will not because such a thing is mean spirited and I am not a mean spirited person.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:38 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:46 AM

"I could but I will not because such a thing is mean spirited and I am not a mean spirited person."

Bullshit you're not. Look back on your posts. And fuck you for your remarks about my country. You want to slag my country's government, I will help you do that. You slag Canadians, and as far as I am concerned, you can kiss my ass, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:57 AM

Two mean sprited people.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:59 AM

You ain't seen the half of it yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:07 AM

Tell me where Canadian shit comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:14 AM

Fuck off, asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Dickey
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:53 AM

Yeah, that's where shit comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 02:08 AM

Wow. YOU are a genius.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 08:38 AM

Peace,

Chill out.

There are attempts here every day to slag the US, but we are supposeded to take it as constructive critiscm. Perhaps one should expect others to treat one's country as one treats the other's.


8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 08:54 AM

Peace regularly goes out of his way not only to make it clear that his animosity to the US administration does NOT extend to the American people generally, but to express his fellow-feeling for Americans ...

Whether he's over-reacting here, I don't know; honestly, I can't be bothered looking back through the thread to form an opinion (I have been following it, but the thought of reading through it all again makes me feel sad and weak and like I need to lie down. And I'm already half-prostrate in my easy-chair).

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 02:20 PM

BB, I am chilled out. Dickey started many weeks back slagging Canda, never made clear that what he said was directed at the Canadian government--left it open that he meant all Canadians. So, IMO he should go fuck himself. I despise him and will continue to do so. It's not hatred as one might know it; it is, rather, an intense dislike for someone who started a war intentionally. Please spread the admonitions around evenly. I know I am causing trouble with this. Thing is, I didn't start the trouble. So leave it at that, will you? Thank you.