BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM

You continue to claim that proven to be (by Israel itself) poisoned land is not "toxic".
You have totally ignored the fact that moving Bedouins onto this poisoned land would be a "war crime" - that is how toxic the land is.

You cling to a discredited lie.
The only poisoned, toxic land is the industrial site that Israel wants to move the Bedouin AWAY from.
It is an unauthorised settlement.
That was shown in your own link.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:42 AM

'Your 'arguments' here have now become the ravings of a madman'

I dunno. I don't see Keith using red print and large capitals. We can both hear and read, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:11 AM

Jim, whatever your obscure Egyptian magazine says, the Egyptian government and security forces state that the attackers used the tunnels and state that as the reason for the closure and flooding.

Why would they lie?
In what way are you and Don better informed?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:03 AM

"It is Egypt who "knows"."
Yes they certainly do.
From the Egyptian Independent - an article headed ,"DESTROYING GAZA TUNNELS SEEN AS A PUNITIVE, NOT SECURITY MEASURE"
http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/destroying-gaza-tunnels-seen-punitive-not-security-measure
You have yet to provide a single link to your claims or a single piece of evidence to back up your statements.
You continue to deny, totally without evidence, the facts that others have put up. You have certainly proved and all but admitted that you don't read what you are given - all in the defence of war crimes, past, present and potential.
You continue to defend the state fascism of putting the wishes of the government above the interests of the people by moving thousands of men, women and children onto poisoned land to make way for settlers.
You continue to claim that proven to be (by Israel itself) poisoned land is not "toxic".
You have totally ignored the fact that moving Bedouins onto this poisoned land would be a "war crime" - that is how toxic the land is.
You continue to defend past and continuing slaughter of civilians, ignoring or denying documented and accredited evidence by eye witnesses, Jews and non-Jews, soldiers, Rabbis, nurses attending the victims..... calling them liars and anti Semites.
Even the Israelis deserve a better defence than your fumbling bigoted rantings.
No lies from me Don, and no bigotry. Your prejudice prevents you from accepting obvious truths.
You have turned these threads into a personal display of your own lying and your own bigotry - once again.
All this, and you have proven your own antisemitism by shrugging off real, rabid and extremely dangerous (at the time), antisemitism as the harmless rantings of eccentrics.
You even managed to insult the British people in all this by describing the attacks on British fascists as "anti-British", implying that antisemitism was acceptable as long as it came from the upper echelons of British society.
If you have any evidence of any of this, please produce it - you have refused to do so up to now.
Your arguments are an insult the victims of decades of mass murder and persecution, to Israelis with a conscience who have had the courage st speak out against their government, to common sense, and to the members of this forum who have enough compassion to take the time and effort to hand you evidence which you either don't bother to read or to disprove with evidence of your own.
You are totally alone in all this - nobody has attempted to justify what you have, even Bruce has agreed that these are acts of terrorism, claiming that they are justified as "self defence" and it is noticeable that your 'good fairy' has wisely steered clear of your display of extreme inhumanity, bigotry and dishonesty.
Your 'arguments' here have now become the ravings of a madman - they were little more than that at the beginning.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 02:59 AM

You must have a mole in Hamas Keith.
They deny any part in the event, yet you "know" not only that they are guilty, but the reason for their actions and the details of the plan.

It is Egypt who "knows".
The heavily armed attackers appeared, as if by magic, on the Egyptian side of the Gazan border.
The soldiers who fought them accused Hamas.
That was made clear at the funerals.
Egypt immediately closed the tunnels.
After lengthy investigation, instead of reopening the tunnels, they destroyed them by flooding.
To emphasise their contempt and disgust, they used raw sewage, literally shitting on them.

We all except you know the plan because it was followed through.
You did not even know that they launched an attack into Israel and ridiculed me for reporting the fact!
"No compasses"

You produce one Bedouin "Uncle Tom", who is living the good life under the wing of the Israeli propaganda machine

Hardly an Uncle Tom figure Don.
He rose to high rank in the army and became a diplomat.
And not just one.
Large numbers of Bedouin join the army, swearing their oath of allegiance to Israel on the Koran.
The most decorated Israeli soldier is a Bedouin.
There are elite fighting units composed entirely of Bedouin.

Despite all the propaganda, have you ever heard of a Bedouin demonstration against Israel.
Palestinian ones are a commonplace.

No lies from me Don, and no bigotry.
Your prejudice prevents you from accepting obvious truths.
The attackers used the tunnels.
The convoy was carrying weapons to Hezbollah.
You are indeed a deeply prejudiced bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:16 PM

""Of course no-one can be allowed to build and farm just anywhere without permission, not just Bedouin and not just in Israel.""

I agree with that Keith! Israel certainly should NOT have been allowed to build and develop the land which the Negev Bedouins had been farming for five and a half centuries before Israel existed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:02 PM

""I produced testimony from a patriotic and successful Bedouin Israeli and showed that he was not unusual in that.""

That is a really low trick. You produce one Bedouin "Uncle Tom", who is living the good life under the wing of the Israeli propaganda machine, and call it evidence, while we produce accounts from numbers of Bedouins living next to Jerusalem's detritus, or in hovels without sanitation, power, roads and medical treatment and three miles from a single water tap, and you deny them.

You are a bigot!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 07:53 PM

""The plan was to use captured Egyptian armoured vehicles to launch an attack into Israel.
They probably did not expect the Egyptian soldiers to resist.
By the end of that fight the IDF were ready for them.""

You must have a mole in Hamas Keith.

They deny any part in the event, yet you "know" not only that they are guilty, but the reason for their actions and the details of the plan.

You are really beyond reason, in tinfoil hat territory, and nothing, absolutely NOTHING that you say can be believed anymore.

You certainly work on the basis that if you are going to tell a lie you should tell a big one.

The only problem is that it has to be just a little short of totally incredible.

You are becoming counter productive, as your nonsense is making the Israelis look not only nasty, but silly as well.

Don T..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

Sporadically that happens. By no means consistently. And of course none of the "settlements" had the "permission" of the local people, and all were in breach of international law and of Israel's legal obligations.
........
There were those who tried to justify and excuse the actions of the South African government under Apartheid, and did so quite sincerely.

It's a sad world we live in where whole populations of innocent people get trapped in a situation not of their making which forces them to consent to terrible things being done in their name. .Outasiders should tread carefully and be careful of doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 01:09 PM

That doesn't seem to apply in the case of "settlements" in the occupied territories.

Yes it does.
JERUSALEM, Feb. 13 — Dozens of soldiers and members of the Israeli civil administration demolished on Wednesday six homes in an outpost located in the West Bank, military sources confirmed to Xinhua.

In addition, four families residing in Ma'ale Rechavam, an outpost located at the Gush Etzion settlement bloc not far from Jerusalem, were evacuated from their houses.

All roads leading to the outpost were blocked to prevent settlers and right-wing activists from returning to the spot.

There are about 30 settler families living in the outpost, and the structures that were demolished on Wednesday were built in the past year, the Walla news website reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM

Of course no-one can be allowed to build and farm just anywhere without permission

That doesn't seem to apply in the case of "settlements" in the occupied territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

The only case of a toxic waste dump is of Israel wanting to move the Bedouin AWAY from it, the exact opposite of what you have been falsely claiming.

Of course no-one can be allowed to build and farm just anywhere without permission, not just Bedouin and not just in Israel.

Israeli government uses different means in order to attract the Bedouin into the planned settlements. It offers land lots at very attractive prices on the one hand,[55] and as an extreme measure - following the court order and all the legal procedure - demolishes houses built illegally on state lands and in rare cases even sprays toxic pesticides onto crops[56] planted in unappropriate places. This is done in order to implement law and order in the Negev, as well as to build new settlements there, both for Jews and for the Bedouin, and improve life conditions of the Bedouin by moving them to townships with a developed infrastructure.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 10:58 AM

YOU CANNOT DISMISS OVER 2 DOZEN ARTICLES ON THE DELIBERATE POLICY OF THE ISRAELI REGIME ATTEMPTING TO DRIVE OT THE BEDOUINS BY USING TOXIC MATERIALS ON THE BASIS OF ONE ARTICLE - THE CASE FOR THEIR HAVING DONE IT HAS BEEN PROVED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
If you ever again accuse me of sinking to your level by doctoring texts I shall search out every dishonest stunt you have pulled, every doctored text you have put forward, every racist statement you have ever made, every deliberate lie you have told, - starting with your faking your identity to post support for your own arguments.Nobody on this forum behaves like you; you manage to fuck it up for every genuine member here, The fact that this doesn't bother you makes you the slimeball that you are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 09:40 AM

"You ACCIDENTLY" omitted the end of Regev's sentence."
I put the whole quote up earlier and you rejected it as Antisemitic - which was the point of my putting it up again.
You have the entire quote and a dozen more above and you have rejected them ALL AS ANTISEMITIC
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM

Zac Resnick?!

You can not expect us to believe that propagandist.
Do not be so gullible Jim.

He wrote all that shite two years ago.
The Bedouin are all still there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:59 AM

Jim, notice the word "unrecognised" again.
The reality
Jim Casrroll
Wadi al-Na'am is an unrecognized village in the Negev Desert in Southern Israel. The nearest official settlement is Beersheba. The village is home to about 5,000 Bedouin who live mainly in tents and tin shacks less than 500 metres away from a toxic waste dump,

This is what Israel is trying to change!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM

Oh Jim!
You ACCIDENTLY" omitted the end of Regev's sentence.
Here it is.
"No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:54 AM

The logic
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI EFFORT TO REMOVE BEDOUINS FROM EAST JERUSALEM IS PART OF THE PLAN TO MAKE TWO STATES IMPOSSIBLE
by Zach Resnick on October 25, 2011 22
The Israeli Civil Administration (ICA), which is in charge of all civil operations in the West Bank (though in practice routinely blurs the line between civil and military), "…is committed to removing all Bedouins from the West Bank", and plan to start with the Jerusalem periphery. Forced deportation, the practice of forcibly removing civilians from their homes, is an example of a war crime (4th Geneva Convention, Article 49).
The roughly 2,300 people of the Bedouin community that the ICA is targeting reside in 20 communities in the hills to the east of Jerusalem, in the E1 settlement bloc. More than 80% of them are 1948 refugees. Over two-thirds are children. The communities have all lost access to land due to settlement expansion, most have demolition orders pending against their homes, none have access to the electricity network, and only half are connected to the water network. Despite receiving humanitarian assistance, 55% of Bedouin/herding communities in Area C of the West Bank are "food insecure"; the U.N. defines food security as, "when all people, at all times, have physical and economic access to sufficient, safe and nutritious food to meet their dietary needs and food preferences for an active and healthy life." Over 200 families were re-located from the area in the 1990s, some by force. Of these, more than 85% report they had to abandon their traditional livelihoods. More than 500,000 Israeli civilians live in Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including in East Jerusalem, built in contravention of international law (4th Geneva Convention, Article 49). In this year alone, at least 755 Palestinians had been forcibly displaced due to demolitions, and 127 due to settler violence – some 40% of these were Bedouin.
The relocation deal proposed to the roughly 20 Bedouin small communities that live in the Jerusalem periphery, is to move inside a major municipal garbage dump (also see thisPDF). This is a 'settlement', not of two parties negotiating (relocation agreement), but of the ICA giving a compensation package. This is akin to saying, "sorry we are removing you again (first time was in 1948) from your homes and traditional lifestyle, but take this money and we'll call it even?" The ICA has argued that this is a step up from their current lifestyle, mainly because the ICA is essentially bribing them by building up their new infrastructure and giving them money; they also maintain that urbanization is superior to their traditional herding lifestyle. The current Bedouin way of life is only in a humanitarian and cultural crisis due to Israeli colonization and restrictions over their lives. The new 'deal' the ICA is proposing may not even meet basic standards of living and a minimum standard of cultural perseverance, as enshrined in international law and previous bilateral agreements on the part of the Israeli government.
There is an ethical dilemma for NGOs and those generally in the human rights world here. When a case of deportation or something similar gets high media visibility, it makes it more likely that the Israeli government will punish the occupied population. Increased humanitarian support always results in more demolition orders and a furthering of the elaborate matrix of control. Sometimes the soundest advice for Palestinian communities is to 'settle' with the Israeli government, and in turn get maybe slightly more land and cash in their new package. The ICA and the Israeli government have long understood the colonial principle of 'divide and conquer' by cutting deals with small individual communities and coaxing them not to resist colonization.
The ICA strategy is to make life as terrible as possible for the Palestinians where they are now, while making the land where they want the population to be moved to as desirable as possible so they 'choose' to move. The ICA is planning to make this forced relocation happen in 2-3 months, so it's very important that the story of the Bedouin community gets heard in the international community soon. It's only a matter of time before the ICA tries to forcibly remove the Bedouins elsewhere in the West Bank. The Israeli government wants to urbanize a traditionally rural population to make it easier to judaize the West Bank, and to more easily control the Palestinians. It makes strategic sense that they are trying to remove those in the E1 settlement bloc first, because full colonization of that area as planned, would effectively divide the West Bank into two parts, eliminating any illusion of territorial contiguity that was once there. It unarguably destroys the possibility of any two state solution that isn't legitimized apartheid.

Zach Resnick is living for a year in Israel/Palestine and blogging at Thoughts from Jerusalem. He recently graduated high school and is spending a year before Oberlin College interning for the Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions, studying jazz music at Shtriker Conservatory, and taking in life in Israel/Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

The reality
Jim Casrroll
Wadi al-Na'am is an unrecognized village in the Negev Desert in Southern Israel. The nearest official settlement is Beersheba. The village is home to about 5,000 Bedouin who live mainly in tents and tin shacks less than 500 metres away from a toxic waste dump, largely surrounded by the Ramat Hovav industrial zone and military areas including anIsrael Defense Forces live-fire range. Because the village is unrecognized, it is ineligible for basic services and subject to periodic house demolitions, even though the inhabitants hold Israeli citizenship.[1][2]

State treatment of unrecognized villages
Israeli government uses different means in order to attract the Bedouin into the planned settlements. It offers land lots at very attractive prices on the one hand,[55] and as an extreme measure - following the court order and all the legal procedure - demolishes houses built illegally on state lands and in rare cases even sprays toxic pesticides onto crops[56]planted in unappropriate places. This is done in order to implement law and order in the Negev, as well as to build new settlements there, both for Jews and for the Bedouin, and improve life conditions of the Bedouin by moving them to townships with a developed infrastructure.

Uprooting Weeds, by Devorah Brous
On Thursday, March 11th, 2004, Bedouin fields were sprayed with Monsanto's toxic Roundup for the seventh time in 2 years as the Israel Lands Authority sent a fleet of planes to 'redeem' land near Mitzpe Ramon, in Abde and in Qatamat, unrecognized villages in the Southern Negev. In such cases, the State has rendered Bedouin cultivation of unused desert expanse, illegal. Twice in February, fruit trees (olives and dates) were uprooted from Bedouin villages, each time some 50 trees. Below please find an article analyzing this policy of uprooting, and destroying food crops. Bustan is collecting any information on crop-spraying operations around the world as a tactic to gain state control over lands.

Jewish settlers spray toxic substance, kill herd of sheep
By Palestinian Information Center
August 13, 2012
AL-KHALIL– Jewish settlers sprayed toxic substance in Palestinian grazing fields near the town of Yatta, southern al-Khalil, causing the death of a herd of sheep.
The coordinator of the popular committees against the wall and settlement in Yatta, Ratib Al-Jabour, asserted that the herd of sheep, which belonged to Jihad Noajah, had died after grazing in wild herbs, which were sprayed with toxic substances by settlers from Susiya settlement to the southeast of Yatta.
Meanwhile, the head of Wadi al-Maleh village council, Aref Daraghmeh, stated that the Israeli occupation authorities (IOA) have ordered Palestinian Bedouins in Wadi al-Maleh in the Jordan Valley to pay excessive fines of up to 15 thousand shekels to retrieve their cattle confiscated a few days ago.
He added that the residents lost numbers of their cows which died during the confiscation raid while others were still held by the IOA even after paying the fines.

The story of the Bedouin tribesmen in the unrecognized village of wadi al-Na'am southern Israel desert.
Wadi al-Na'am is an unrecognized Bedouin village located in the Negev Desert in Southern Israel. The village is home to about 8,000 Bedouins. Since the Bedouins never registered their holdings on paper, their villages were considered illegal and termed "unrecognized". The villagers are deprived of basic services such as electricity, running water, sewage system and medical services. As the villagers cannot build homes legally, the Israeli government uses demolition orders against their homes.
Israel's hazardous industrial park and waste disposal facility, Ramat Hovav, is only 1 km away from Wadi al-Na'am. Ramat Hovav currently encompasses 14 hazardous agro and petro-chemical factories and a toxic waste incinerator. The village is also encircled by a large facility of the national electric company as well as military areas including live-fire range.
An epidemiological survey, which was released by the Israeli Ministry of Health in 2004, found higher rates of prenatal deaths, respiratory problems and birth defects among the Bedouins in the Negev. Wadi el Na'am inhabitants have been suffering from high rates of cancer, asthma and miscarriages.

Respiratory morbidity in hospitalized Bedouins residing near an industrial park.
Kordysh E, Karakis I, Belmaker I, Vardi H, Bolotin A, Sarov B.
Source
Department of Epidemiology and Health Systems Evaluation, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer-Sheva, Israel.
Abstract
The residents' concern about exposure to a chemical industrial park (IP), which includes the national toxic industrial waste site, prompted the authors to initiate this ecological study on the association between residing near the IP and being hospitalized for respiratory ailments in the local Bedouin population. The population was stratified by sex, age, and locality type (permanent settlements and traditional tribal settlements). The distance and wind direction from the IP were used as exposure indicators. Hospitalization data were obtained from the regional medical center. Increased hospitalization rates for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and all respiratory diseases were found to be associated with residential proximity to the IP. Attributable risk for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease was 34.2% in male members of the traditional tribal settlements and 49.3% in female members of the permanent settlements.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

Yes Jim.
That village IS near a toxic dump.
It is one of the unrecognised settlements that Israel wants to remove.

"There is no basis in reality to the recently made claim that we supposedly want to move 70,000 Bedouin to existing towns," said Begin this week. "Our inclination is to work toward a range of Bedouin settlements. The Bedouin will be left where they are to the extent possible.

"At the same time," he added, "we cannot allow one house per hilltop, because this is economically unsustainable. This means construction is going to have to be more dense." According to Begin, a small part of the Bedouin population will have to move from locations where it is claimed villages cannot exist, partly because of environmental concerns. "There is no justification for Bedouin children growing up next to the airstrips of the Nevatim airbase. A settlement such as Wadi al-Na'am, located in an environmentally hazardous area near military industries and the Ramat Hovav industrial zone, cannot be sustained."

Begin agreed there is justification in recognizing some of the settlements as farming villages, but said there is potential for more urban forms of development. He mentioned the great demand for apartments in the Bedouin city of Rahat.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:22 AM

And here's an end to the toxic question - see source of quota
Jim Carroll

Information gathered by Oxfam from Bedouin families in the West Bank last year suggested that selling animals, mostly sheep, can earn a herder as much as £21,000 in a year. The problem is that as their grazing land has diminished, about half of this income is now spent on animal feed. Add to that the costs of trucking in water and paying for fuel for electricity generators, or investing in solar panels, and there is very little cash left over.
Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, says there is understanding between the government and the Bedouins that the situation is untenable. He insists, contrary to what is laid out in the proposed legislation, the Negev herders will be offered a choice to move to a town or rural village.
"The pockets of poverty and neglect in Bedouin communities must end. One [Negev] village is right next to a terrible, polluted dump. No one should be living next to a toxic dump, " Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 13 - 08:21 AM

Abdulla, you do your daughter a disservice if you tell her that lovers of a music will always share the same views and philosophies.

We have produced massive amounts of documentary evidence of what is being done to the Israeli Bedouin, which you have ignored, responding only with "I don't believe it",
Not true Don.
I produced testimony from a patriotic and successful Bedouin Israeli and showed that he was not unusual in that.
Anyone who builds insanitary shacks without permission will have them removed.
Not just Bedouin, and not only in Israel.
The same would happen in the most progressive countries, and in ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 04:23 PM

I take it that the blockade has meant that there are no compasses in Gaza? they kind of lost their sense of direction if they attacked Egypt instead of Israel.
No Don.
The plan was to use captured Egyptian armoured vehicles to launch an attack into Israel.
They probably did not expect the Egyptian soldiers to resist.
By the end of that fight the IDF were ready for them.

A claim for which we have no other evidence than the word of the government which ordered the incursion.

Your prejudice and bigotry makes you just "know" it is a lie.
I believe it.
So does the whole world except you Don.
Or, can you find one other source or person in the all creation who shares your ridiculous blindness to reality?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 03:14 PM

""The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad.""

A claim for which we have no other evidence than the word of the government which ordered the incursion.

Really handy being your own judge and jury. Nobody can ever find you guilty.

A pity that so much of what they say is proven lies by their own citizens and soldiers.

""To demonize Israel you have to rake up an event from over thirty years ago that was committed against Arabs by Arabs, and falsely claim the Bedouin in Israel are persecuted.""

1.) A grossly over simplified statement which attempts to cover up the FACT that the Israelis brought those Arabs in and watched them slaughter unarmed civilians including children, aand to cover up the fact that those particular Arabs were deadly enemies of the Muslims, a fact which was well known to Israel, and which destroys your Arabs killing Arabs justification.

2.) We have produced massive amounts of documentary evidence of what is being done to the Israeli Bedouin, which you have ignored, responding only with "I don't believe it", which absolutely fails to qualify as either evidence or argument.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM

""Only extreme prejudice could lead anyone to blame Israel for the incursion.
Israel was the intended target and its only role was to kill them all when the suicide attack was launched through its border.""

Israel was the intended target?

I take it that the blockade has meant that there are no compasses in Gaza? they kind of lost their sense of direction if they attacked Egypt instead of Israel.

""That Egyptian publication you linked to suggested that Egypt closed the tunnels to screw the poor persecuted Sinai Bedouins even harder.
They make money from the tunnels.http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/destroying-gaza-tunnels-seen-punitive-not-security-measure
The Bedouin hate Egypt for its treatment of them and were probably involved in the killings.""

Or maybe the Bedouins were entirely responsible. That's the whole point Keith. There are several possibilities, and I don't pretend to know who actually did the deed and you certainly cannot claim to know either.

You, however, not knowing are bound and determined to exclude Israel alone from any involvement.

You have ignored my entirely credible analysis of the situation with respect to WHO has most to gain, because responding would mean that you would have to refute it logically, which you cannot do.

If all other suspects were eliminated and Israelis were caught red handed, you would blame pixies rather than admit it.

The most intransigent bigot here remains your good self.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 08:43 AM

Proof.
Egypt says so.
They should know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 08:35 AM

Proof?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM

No-one is interested in your attempts to slander me.
You always do it when you are losing an argument.
Personal attack.
It is what you do.

Egypt acted against the tunnels because the attack came from Gaza.
The Israeli airstrike was justified and no significant nation or UN has "condemned" them.
The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad.
To demonize Israel you have to rake up an event from over thirty years ago that was committed against Arabs by Arabs, and falsely claim the Bedouin in Israel are persecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 06:02 AM

Oh - and my apologies - your description of "all male British Pakistanis" as having "cultural implants" whic incline them to having sex with underage girls - unarguably presents them as being 'perverted cultural degenerates' - slip of the finger - often happens, as you have pointed out.
Thanks for the opportunity to present you with your extreme racist statement again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 05:40 AM

Yeah, yeah - we know all about that Keith - you've lied about that interminably.
Losing what argument - you haven't put one up - just denial.
Though I must admit that the mountain of support you are getting for your obscene views might throw some doubt on this.
And relying on one of many dozens of pieces of evidence you have had put before you (after your sole piece of "evidence" comesd from a self declared Israeli apologist site) only serves to underline your attempts to debunk all that has been given to you
Game, set and match I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 05:01 AM

Jim.
'all male Pakistanis are cultural degenerates' 'Pakistani perverts'

I never have and never woulod say such ridiculous things.
Putting them in quotes is lying.
It is what you always do when you are losing an argument.

Electronic Intifada is about as far from "solid evidence" as it is possible to get.
Only a complete fool or a bigot blinded by prejudice would treat it as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 04:06 AM

"It is all lies Jim"
Throughout this thread you have dismissed solid evidence of Israeli atrocities, you have defended or ignored human rights abuses and war crimes, denied documented and fully accredited massacres, have described the moving of whole communities onto poisoned land, the deliberate use of toxins on crops and livestock....
Disgustingly, you have dismissed the Israeli soldiers who were part of and witnessed the massacres at Sabra and Shatila, as liars.
Amnesty, the UN, Jews for Peace and other liberal groups and individuals, Rabbis, journalists..... all "anti-Semites"
All this is (apparently) in support of the systematic slaughter and persecution of ordinary civilians, men, women and children, young and old – all non combatants.
You have consistently lied about your own statements, claiming not to have made them, while they are still in full view without having to leave this thread.
You have also lied about following links that you have been given - you were caught red-handed with this one.
All this you have done while at the same time defending your earlier stance that Anti Semites in the upper echelons of the British establishment pouring out their rabid Anti Jewish filth at the time when Nazi Germany was at the peak of its power and set to invade Britain, were "as harmless as the theme song from Dad's Army".
Your declared support for Israel and the Jewish people is as false as your crocodile tears for the Syrian people.
YOU STILL HAVE NOT PRODUCED ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO BACK UP ANY OF YOUR ARGUMENTS - NOT ONE.
YOU APPEAR TO TREATING ALL THIS AS AN EXTREMELY SICK GAME DESIGNED SOLELY TO DRAW ATTENTION TO YOURSELF
You really have surpassed your 'all male Pakistanis are cultural degenerates' on this one.
The great advantage of these two particular threads, like your 'Pakistani perverts' arguments, is that you have presented a picture of yourself as one sick individual who is prepared to use this forum to spread his sickness - nobody in their right mind could possibly take your psychopathic rantings seriously again.
The picture you have painted of yourself will be available to us for future use for as long as this forum exists - thanks for that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 03:06 AM

Don, we are all old but not all bigots.
Only extreme prejudice could lead anyone to blame Israel for the incursion.
Israel was the intended target and its only role was to kill them all when the suicide attack was launched through its border.

Jim, Electronic Intifada and Palestine Information Centre are just propaganda sites, for the gullible and the bigot.
It is all lies Jim.

That Egyptian publication you linked to suggested that Egypt closed the tunnels to screw the poor persecuted Sinai Bedouins even harder.
They make money from the tunnels.http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/destroying-gaza-tunnels-seen-punitive-not-security-measure
The Bedouin hate Egypt for its treatment of them and were probably involved in the killings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:18 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:12 PM

Another selective piece of out of context argument from BB.

Last August, when the alleged Palestinian attack happened, the only way out of Gaza was through one of the tunnels.

The Egyptians have reported that SOME of the militants came through the tunnels, so it follows that the rest must have come from somewhere other than Gaza.

At least some of them cannot have been Hamas or Palestinian since Israel has the rest of the border blockaded.

Mossad agents from Gaza (and don't try to say there aren't any) meeting up with Mossad agents from outside Gaza?

Israel, and more specifically Mossad has agents in many countries, as has the USA and more specifically the CIA.

Again I say, who has the most to gain from preventing a link up between Muslim Palestine and Muslim Egypt, and the most to lose if such a link opens the Egyptian border to free movement from and to Gaza?

I don't know how anybody would doubt the possibility, given the fact that they bombed a convoy on Syrian territory without so much as a by-your-leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 04:07 PM

In a highly symbolic break with previous policy, Egypt reopened its border crossing into Gaza on Saturday,

And about time, too, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 03:40 PM

Would you describe that as "TOXIC" Jim?
Yes I most certainly would - what's your point.
Surely you're not still suggesting that the behaviour of a fundamentalist military government is an excuse for human rights abuses comparable to ethnic cleansing by the Israelis
Jim Carroll

Comparable examples - I don't think so.
From the Economist
THE Bedouin of Israel are not a happy lot. Once nomadic lords, Binyamin Netanyahu's government plans to pen tens of thousands of them into cities. This may be Israel's biggest removal of Arabs from the land since the 1948 war.
In the Israeli-occupied West Bank, soldiers knock down their shacks with abandon. Plans are afoot to transfer some 2,000 to the edge of a rubbish dump to make way for more Jewish settlers east of Jerusalem. To cap it all, religious Jews recently torched a mosque in Tuba, a Bedouin town in the north-east of Israel.
Traditionally split into often feuding clans, the nomads have been easy for Israel to divide, conquer, shift and, at least in the Israeli state's early days, expel. Whole tribes of Bedouin once roamed from Libya to Iraq. But concrete walls and a regime of permits have splintered them, reducing contact, commerce and marriage between Israel's 200,000 Bedouin, the West Bank's 40,000 and millions beyond, in Gaza, Jordan, Sinai and the Arabian peninsular.
Forced first into narrow enclaves and then into towns, they have generally downsized from camels to goats. Many have abandoned their herds entirely. The West Bank's last surviving herders are hemmed in by Israeli military bases, by-pass roads and Jewish settlements. Israeli soldiers confiscate flocks that stray. The settlers see them as trespassers and bar access to springs.
Life in Israel proper is little better. Nearly half the Negev's Bedouin live in villages often predating the state but officially unrecognised and so denied state support. There are no paved roads, public transport, electricity or water. ALONGSIDE WADI NAAM, A DUSTY BEDOUIN CAMP OF 4,000 PEOPLE, A TOXIC WASTE PLANT PUFFS AWAY.
www.economist.com/node/21536645

And this
Israel's poisonous aerial spraying of Negev crops illegal, endangers health of Bedouin villagers
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-poisonous-aerial-spraying-negev-crops-illegal-endangers-health-bedouin-villagers/385

And this
From Jews for Justice
Jewish settlers spray toxic substance, kill herd of sheep
By Palestinian Information Center
August 13, 2012
AL-KHALIL– Jewish settlers sprayed toxic substance in Palestinian grazing fields near the town of Yatta, southern al-Khalil, causing the death of a herd of sheep.
The coordinator of the popular committees against the wall and settlement in Yatta, Ratib Al-Jabour, asserted that the herd of sheep, which belonged to Jihad Noajah, had died after grazing in wild herbs, which were sprayed with toxic substances by settlers from Susiya settlement to the southeast of Yatta.
Meanwhile, the head of Wadi al-Maleh village council, Aref Daraghmeh, stated that the Israeli occupation authorities (IOA) have ordered Palestinian Bedouins in Wadi al-Maleh in the Jordan Valley to pay excessive fines of up to 15 thousand shekels to retrieve their cattle confiscated a few days ago.
He added that the residents lost numbers of their cows which died during the confiscation raid while others were still held by the IOA even after paying the fines.

And this

The Negev comprises 60 percent of Israel's land, explained the University of Vermont graduate, but only 2.5 percent of it has been relegated to the Bedouins, who once grazed their animals throughout the Negev and Sinai Deserts, as well as Jordan. The Negev's estimated 190,000 Bedouins (27 percent of the region's population) are forced to live within a small area called the siyag ("fence"쳌)—a confined space which also contains Israel's infamous Dimona nuclear plant and reactors, 19 agro- and petrochemical factories, a toxic waste incinerator, an electric power plant, a prison, quarries, industrial and military zones and a military airport.
http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/313-washington-report-archives-2006-2010/september-october-2007/9446-jewish-american-activist-champions-cause-of-israels-disenfranchised-bedouin.html

And remembering this is about the excellent treatment meted out to the Bedouins by Israel
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 2012
Extreme Israeli violence in recognized Bedouin village of Bir Hadaj - Report from Negev Coexistence Forum
In the early morning hours of November 12, hundreds of Israeli police stormed the recognized Bedouin village of Bir Hadaj. The police officers were accompanied by representatives of the Israeli Ministry of Interior, who attempted to distribute home demolition orders to village residents.http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 10:01 AM

"
This just gets better! So, how did the gunmen who didn't come through the tunnel get there, if they were Hamas, or Palestinian?
The tunnels are the ONLY way out of Gaza!
"


Jerusalem (CNN) -- In a highly symbolic break with previous policy, Egypt reopened its border crossing into Gaza on Saturday, opening the door for Palestinians to the outside world and raising fears among some Israelis that militant attacks will increase.
"Procedures were excellent," said Younes Ahmed, who described his travel into Egypt as the first such visit in his life. "I hope there will be peace between our people and I want to thank the Egyptian people and the Egyptian government ... we always hope for easier ways for Palestinians because our people suffered enough."
Crossing officials said more than 600 Palestinians passed Saturday through the Rafah border, which had been subject to frequent closures by Egypt after Hamas, an Islamic militant group, took control of Gaza in June 2007.
The closure of the border had been part of an embargo policy by Egypt and Israel aimed at cutting off Hamas, though it simultaneously created an economic hardship in Gaza by limiting shipments of goods in and out of the country.
Egypt opted to reopen the border to offer relief to the people of Gaza, said Ambassador Menha Bakhoum of the country's foreign ministry.
"Today, we are facing a new stage, a new stage were this blockade is defeated," said a Hamas representative at the crossing. "This step is to support the resistance of the Palestinian people to face the Zionist blockade."
"This is a Palestinian-Egyptian frontier and it's not the business of the invaders," said Salam Baraka, general director of border police. "This border does not submit but to the Egyptian-Palestinian rule."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM

""prejudiced old bigots who blame Israel for everything""

Well Keith, we are old (depending on what your definition of the word is), but definitely not bigots.

You are a bigot and will soon enough be an old one as well.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:49 AM

""I am sure you are much better informed than the Egyptian Security Forces Don, but I still am more inclined to believe them than two blinkered and prejudiced old bigots who blame Israel for everything.""

SAME OLD LIE KEITH! Just 50 minutes after I posted the following, which you ignored because it is inconvenient to have to acknowledge that I have been blaming both throughout the discussion for months.

Much easier to LIE, than to admit that you are the donkey with blinkers and a stubborn bias, eh Keith?

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:20 AM

""Judge Richard Goldstone of the Goldstone Report makes it clear that Israel and Hamas are in violation of the ostensible peace treaties between Israel and Palestine. He doesn't favor one side over another. They are both culpable.""

Which is what I have been saying, and you and your cronies have been denying for months past.""

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM

I am sure you are much better informed than the Egyptian Security Forces Don, but I still am more inclined to believe them than two blinkered and prejudiced old bigots who blame Israel for everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:30 AM

""Citing security concerns for the crackdown, Cairo said some of the gunmen who killed 16 Egyptian soldiers near the Gaza border fence in August had crossed into Egypt via the tunnels.""

SOME of the gunmen?

This just gets better! So, how did the gunmen who didn't come through the tunnel get there, if they were Hamas, or Palestinian?
The tunnels are the ONLY way out of Gaza!

That surely points more toward Hamas not being involved.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:20 AM

""Judge Richard Goldstone, writing in The New York Times in October 2011, said of the Russell Tribunal on Palestine that "It is not a 'tribunal.' The 'evidence' is going to be one-sided and the members of the 'jury' are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known.

Very smart Keith, quoting the same man who made the following statement:-

""Judge Richard Goldstone of the Goldstone Report makes it clear that Israel and Hamas are in violation of the ostensible peace treaties between Israel and Palestine. He doesn't favor one side over another. They are both culpable.""

Which is what I have been saying, and you and your cronies have been denying for months past.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 08:08 AM

""All we know is that they closed the Gaza tunnels immediately, and seven months later flooded them.
Now why would they do such an unfriendly thing?""

OK genius, First question! Why would Hamas attack Egyptians, just at the time when they are conducting delicate negotiations with the Egyptians? They may well be nasty, but they ain't STUPID!

Second question! Would Israel view a detente between Egypt and Palestine with equanmity, or dismay? It would destroy the Israeli blockade, and put their expansionist plans in jeopardy.

Third question! Would Israel use a covert military attack to derail such negotiations? You can bet your life savings THEY WOULD!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:43 AM

""Just a tiny bit far fetched Don.
Were you being serious?""

Entebbe was far fetched until they did it.

You are seriously telling me that you don't believe Mossad has agents operating in the Gaza strip.

Wake up and look around mate!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:39 AM

""I have taken Egypt's decision to close the tunnels in response to the incursion as sound evidence that they think the tunnels were used in the incursion.
If that is correct, then they were not being honest when they implicated Israel.""

Oh really Keith!

Are you naive enough to believe that Israeli agents, most likely Mossad, would be unable to make their way through Gaza and enter Egypt by the tunnels?

You have no more idea who was responsible for that attack than I, or anyone else, and only your blind faith in the word of the Israeli government makes you think you have.

Do us all a favour and stop making claims that neither you, nor anyone else, can prove or disprove.

Try sticking to FACTS! And try to remember that a statement doesn't necessarily become a fact simply because it came from an Israeli source.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 07:08 AM

A "toxic dump" no less.
On Hamas!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 06:56 AM

Would you describe that as "TOXIC" Jim?
This time I would too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 06:53 AM

New York Times yesterday.


The Egyptian military is resorting to a pungent new tactic to shut down the smuggling tunnels connecting Sinai and Gaza: flooding them with sewage. Along with the stink, the approach is raising new questions about relations between Egypt's new Islamist leaders and their ideological allies in Hamas who control the Gaza Strip.

"Awful," said Abu Mutair Shalouf, 35, a Palestinian smuggler on the Gaza side, watching workers haul buckets of sewage-soaked soil from the shaft of a tunnel flooded by the Egyptian military 15 days ago. "I don't know why they did this."

Concern in Cairo about the tunnels spiked last August, when 16 Egyptian soldiers died in a militant attack on a military outpost in Sinai. The Egyptian government believes the attackers came through the tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM

Speaking to Egypt's Bawabat Al-Ahram newspaper, Ahmed Ali, a spokesman for the Egyptian army, confirmed that Egypt's armed forces aimed to damage all tunnels on the Sinai-Gaza border for security reasons.

Ali said that maintaining security in Egypt does not contradict supporting the Palestinian cause, and the flooding of the tunnels should not upset supporters of Palestine.

"Gaza has its legitimate crosspoints such as Rafah and Kerem Shalom, where it can import and export goods. Therefore, remarks about Egypt supporting the siege over Gaza need to be reconsidered," Ali said.

Despite the immediate repercussions for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza, closing the tunnels might push forward the slow Palestinian national reconciliation process between Fatah and Hamas, as they will have to form a united authority on its borders.

While Egypt's decision is understandable, the timing of it is surprising, says Gaza-based political analyst Talal Okal.


Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/02/egypt-floods-gaza-tunnels.html#ixzz2LcPukDP7