Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:44 PM

John Minear, Please email me for my conclusions - address above

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:42 PM

John
I see your dilemma and wish you luck in finding evidence. If that evidence is not forthcoming you might want to fall back on probabilities. If we are to believe the collectors and Child, c1800 the ballads were very much alive in Scotland at that time, even allowing for a substantial percentage of forgeries and literary interference. It is therefore extremely likely that any waves of migrants from Scotland and N Ireland/Sc would have a store of ballads in their heads, and using the old 'Scots abroad' maxim they would have been very keen to keep these artefacts alive.

Brian,
I have posted on Mudcat before my feelings on Earl Brand and the Bold Dragoon. They simply have a couple of lines in common and no other relationship. The desire to connect the two, somewhat ironically in light of what you say, was due to American collectors in the first half of the 20th century being desirous of including Child ballads in their collections and grasping at straws. I have mentioned this to Steve and I can't remember what he did about it. I have an up-to-date Access spreadsheet of the Index but unfortunately haven't currently got Access on my new computer. I'll be seeing Steve tomorrow night when he gets his EFDSS Gold Badge and will ask him to check. Certainly The Bold Dragoon and Earl Brand should have separate numbers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 01:14 PM

I am appreciating all of this good response and I'm seeing that the "Scots (Scotch)/Irish" business is complicated. Let me back up a bit. My primary interest is trying to establish whether or not there is any documentation for any of the so-called "Child" ballads in America in the 1700s. A secondary question would be "can they be documented prior to the American Revolution in America?" Or did they come after the Revolution was over? Can we document them prior to the 19th century?

I've been looking at one particular geographical area known for its ballad singers, documented by George Foss, and located along the eastern face of the Blue Ridge Mountains west of Charlottesville in Viriginia. Here is the link:

http://www.klein-shiflett.com/shifletfamily/HHI/GeorgeFoss/whall.html?

This is called "From White Hall to Bacon Hollow" and is a fascinating account of these folks, much of it in their own words. There is some genealogy material here in relation to ballad singing, but none of it really goes back before the 19th century.

John Moulden, I'd be very interested to know what kind of conclusions you were able to make in your research on "the Scotch Irish, and the songs they might have carried and deposited in the Southern Mountains".

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 12:40 PM

Most interesting, John and Brian. Perhaps it would be good to rename the "Scotch-Irish" and the "Ulster Scots" the "Anglo-Celts."

But I don't see it catching on.

Another point: even actual Ultonian immigrants could have been "Irish" for only a generation. Any Irish culture they might have absorbed in that time would have been quite minimal. (I'm inclined to believe that it would have been minimal for longer than that: the native Irish were not exactly held up as role models.)

And "ethnically" (i.e., "racially"), which is what much of the whole "Scotch-Irish" subject is about, the discussion is meaningless. The "Scotch-Irish" are at best a subculture of the broader English-speaking culture. They're obviously not a "race" in any non-poetic sense of the word. Even if they were, folk music is not carried by the genes.

As I've suggested, much of "Scotch-Irish" theory is based on nineteenth-century romanticism, which in the USA was an intellectual force well into the 1920s. (If you listen to the Republican candidates, you'll see that it's never gone away completely.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:52 AM

Wiki on 'Appalachia':

"An estimated 90% of Appalachia's earliest European settlers originated from the Anglo-Scottish border country— namely the English counties of Cumberland, Westmoreland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancashire, and Yorkshire, and the Lowland Scottish counties of Ayrshire, Dumfriesshire, Roxburghshire, Berwickshire, and Wigtownshire. Most of these were from families who had been resettled in the Ulster Plantation in northern Ireland in the 17th century."

Wiki's source is D. Newhall, Encyclopedia of Appalachia (Knoxville, Tenn.: University of Tennessee Press, 2006), pp. 253-255.

You might want to dispute that 90% figure, but what interests me is that the term 'Scotch-Irish' clearly includes many migrants with English ancestry, from 'Border' counties as far South as lancashire and Yorkshire.

Sharp's Appalachian collection is full of singers' names of apparently English origin, although - at first glance at least - many of the common ballads in it (Earl Brand, Young Hunting, House Carpenter etc.) seem to be ones with a more vigorous history in Scotland.

Talking of Earl Brand (and realising that some knowledgable people are participating here) can anyone expalin to me why the English versions of The Lady and the Dragoon are catalogued under that title (Roud 23, Child 7), whereas the American ones are not (Round 321)? I only noticed that a minute ago.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:50 PM

John, even though Wiki cites a Harvard publication, you'll notice that what it says squares with what I wrote. The estimates are based on inferences from surnames rather than on direct evidence:

"The ancestry of the 3,929,326 million population in 1790 has been estimated by various sources by sampling last names in the 1790 census and assigning them a country of origin. According to the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups (Thernstrom, S 1980, 'Irish,' p. 528), there were 400,000 Americans of Irish birth or ancestry in 1790; half of these were descended from Ulster, and half were descended from the other provinces of Ireland."

And how culturally significant is "Irish ancestry" - much less Scotch-Irish - when all there is to go on is a surname? If one parent is Irish and another English, Scottish, or Welsh, which category fits?

Wiki's source is dated 1980. I read about the sampling bias in the late '90s. Wish I could remember where. (Some big red book with lots of demographic articles. Maybe it'll come to me.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:49 PM

I'm sure Nathaniel Coverley and Deeming of Boston printed some of them. John might care to check out the Thompson Collection and those in the LoC. Some definitely appeared in those little dime songsters printed by the likes of Nafis. But then, as in Britain, there was a healthy interchange between cheap print and oral tradition.

Such an investigation would certainly enhance Richie's website.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:43 PM

I researched the topic of the Scotch Irish, and the songs they might have carried and deposited in the Southern Mountains, exhaustively about 10 years ago and am to give a presentation on it in Atlanta at the end of next month (with some need to update my knowledge - and quickly!) I too have reservations about the emigration figures - they may be anything between 100,000 and 200,000 for the period 1715 - 1775, curiously, exhaustive research on entry from the north of Ireland through the Delaware ports shows considerably less activity than was previously argued. The most recent conspectus is probably Brian Lambkin and Patrick Fitzgerald <> (Palgrave MacMillan, 2008)- they summarise a considerable range of sources.

If you want to discuss this further, it might be best to go private since it could get quite academic. jmoul81075(at)aol.com - for (at) read @.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:38 PM

FWIW, Ron Byrnside wrote an entire book on "Music in Eighteenth Century Georgia" (U. Ga. Press, 1997), in which he could only assume that the early settlers sang ballads like "Barbara Allen." The contemporary references just weren't there.

This sort of thing makes me wonder. Could it be, Steve, that most of the American popularity of Child ballads came from some sort of latterly unnoticed "broadside/songster revival" from around 1830?

Just thinking out loud.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 06:33 PM

Child Ballads as opposed to broadside ballads (I know a lot of the Child Ballads appeared on broadsides)should be easier to study and come up with some general conclusions, which is one reason why Richie's collection may prove valuable. What I'm proposing can only be useful in very general terms and can't be actual proof, but if multiple US versions of a ballad differ significantly from their British counterparts it shows they have been in oral tradition in America for a significant period of time. The more and varied the differences the longer they are likely to have been in oral tradition there. An extra factor that would need adding in is the interference of broadside and literary versions, and indeed forgeries. Literary and forged versions can easily and quickly slip into oral tradition. I base my theories on my studies of broadside ballads over a long period. Those, generally speaking, that vary the most are the earlier ones like The Gosport Tragedy. What must be factored in here of course is the influence of intermediate printed texts.

You mention Bronson. I can't imagine Bronson being any use here as of course he was only dealing with texts with tunes and as far as I know, prior to Sharp there weren't any American collections that gave tunes, although Child himself may have had some.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 05:56 PM

Hi Lighter, always good to hear from you. My information came from the Wikipedia. I very much appreciate your corrections on that. I have certainly come across some of what you are talking about in both old and quite recent accounts of the Scots-Irish. I am also aware that there were a lot of Germans coming into the Port of Philadelphia at the same time that the Scots-Irish were arriving. Since about WWI, their presence has been down-played somewhat in the development of the "upper South" and Southern Appalachian regions.

I'm just wondering if there is any print documentation for an early importation of the "Child" ballads. I approach this question with a good deal of skepticism. But maybe there are some family accounts out there, or smaller collections like the Western NY one mentioned above that have some early references. The question is have they been noticed by anyone enough to get into the discussion. I was amazed to find the "Sarah Willard" manuscript copy of "The House Carpenter" on the TAUNY (Traditional Adirondack Music) website, which is a handwritten copy of "The House Carpenter" dated April 18, 1869, and no discussion of it anywhere. Here is the link:

http://woods.tauny.org/images_start.php?gal=gallery/sub5/&img=48

Do you know if anyone has actually done a study on the early dating of these ballads in America?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 04:36 PM

John, perhaps you have access to new information, but otherwise I'm very skeptical of the immigration figures you cite.

Some years ago, I came across what I believe was the original research "establishing" the immigration patterns of the Scotch-Irish to the South. It was done around 1915, in the heyday of the belief that ethnicity was a powerful determinant of group and individual character. The Scotch-Irish were thought to be especially strong, vigorous, visionary, and ready for physical challenges: the ideal "race" to clear forests, fight Indians, and dream of westward expansion. It would have been satisfying to myany patriotic researchers to show that they had contributed disproportionately to the development of the United States.

However, American immigration records of the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries give few indications of cultural identity within the UK (English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Scotch-Irish). About all that can be recovered with any degree of reliability are personal names and ports of embarkation.

In an obvious effort to bulk up Scotch-Irish immigration to America, the investigator (I wish I could remember his name) counted all UK immigrants, regardless of port of embarkation, *who had Scotch-Irish surnames.* And he included, as Scotch-Irish, names known in Ulster that were *also* distributed elsewhere in the British Isles!

And voila! A preponderance of Scotch-Irish immigrants to tame the wild frontier!

The idea that the Scotch-Irish made up the great majority of early settlers in Appalachia is evidently a myth. The truth seems to be that they were the largest white, non-English minority.

Which isn't to say they didn't have Child ballads. But the earliest printed reference to one in America that I can recall seeing is "The Mermaid," from around 1850.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 03:11 PM

John,
It also occurs to me that Richie might be able to assist you. Take a look at his website. I'm sure he'll chip in at some point.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

Another possible source is Flanders 'Ancient Ballads Traditionally sung in New England' I have a vague recollection that some of the texts come from manuscripts.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:11 PM

John, thanks for connection with the "White Spirituals". I will definitely take a look at this. I have always been curious about the relationship of the ballads to the religious songs.

I did find a complete version of THE PIONEER SONGSTER online here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/pioneersongstert00thom#page/n5/mode/2up

It looks like 1841 is the date for the earliest part of this manuscript, but of course if these songs were being copied down at that point they were around before then. However, I couldn't find much in the way of specifics as to which ones might have been earlier or what their dates might have been.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:44 PM

There is evidence in the early shape note hymnals, sometimes the tune associated with particular ballads can be found, sometimes the form of the hymn parallels that of a ballad and the association is clear. See the work of George Pullen Jackson and Don Yoder, especially George Pullen Jackson: White Spirituals in the Southern Uplands (New York, Dover Publications, 1965)where chapter 15 gives a list of such correspondences. However, the earliest of these hymn books is of about 1815 (though there are arguments for assuming that some were printed previously) - this is too late for the first wave of Scotch-Irish though the areas in which they circulated coincide mainly with those of greated S-I influence.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:32 PM

Steve, thanks for calling my attention to the song in A SAILOR'S SONGBAG by George Carey. I was just looking at that book a few days ago, but I didn't have this question in my head at the time. Carey doesn't venture an opinion on whether this is from oral or written tradition or whether it came from a fellow American prisoner or from an English source. However, it does suggest that this particular ballad, #112, "The Baffled Knight", was being sung in 1778. The version in the SONGBAG does look like a sung version.

If nothing else, this collection probably made its way back to America after the war, before the turn of the century, and would thus count as a documented version in America in the 1700s. I couldn't find an exact reference in Carey as to when Connor, the prisoner who collected these songs, returned to America. It just says that he was part of a prisoner exchange on June 14, 1779, and was taken to France.   

And thanks for your other suggestions as well, Steve. I notice that "The Baffled Knight" shows up in the PIONEER SONGSTER as "Katie Mora" (p. 9). Unfortunately, the Google Books excerpt does not give very much of the book, and the only information I could get on the dating was from the subtitle "Texts of the Stevens-Douglass Manuscript of Western New York, 1841-1856." I will add this to my library search list.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:52 AM

There is a version of Child 112 at p80 in A Sailor's Songbag by George Carey. It is from the ms of an American POW at Forton Prison near portsmouth, England, and is dated 1778. Many of the ballads here are however from British broadsides and were written down while he was in the prison so may be from British sources, or perhaps in this case from one of his fellow American prisoners.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:00 AM

In the absence of actual documentation one is thrown back on conjecture. It is hard to conceive that the ballads did not come across in all waves even starting with the Pilgrim Fathers. Off hand I can't remember actual ballads but I'm sure I remember there being some of the Child ballads found in America that have died out long ago in oral tradition this side of the pond.

You might find it useful to look at 'A Pioneer Songster' edited by Harold W. Thompson. The book is an anthology of ballads from the Stevens-Douglass Ms of Western New York, 1841-56

It has versions of Child, 45, 84, 112, 268, 283, 285, 287, 289, not the most typical of Child Ballads, but Child Ballads nevertheless.

There will be other manuscript collections. I suggest you repeat your request to the scholars on the Indiana Ballad List.

Subject: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 09:39 AM

Does anyone know of any documentation or manuscript evidence for any of the "Child Ballads" in the 1700s in America? After having spent a good deal of time on looking at "The Demon Lover"/"The House Carpenter" (#243) in New England, we were not able to find any written documentation for the ballad in the Northeast prior to the Andrews/De Marsan broadside of 1858/1860. I am not aware of any written documentation for this ballad earlier than this for anywhere else in America. Here is the link for that discussion:

thread.cfm?threadid=141964&messages=153

In relation to some other research I am doing, I began to wonder about the rest of the ballads in the Child Collection. Can any of them be dated in America prior to the middle of the 1800's with any written documentation?

I realize that the commonly accepted theory for the presence of these "old ballads and love songs" in America is that for the most part they probably "came over" with the Scots-Irish, along with some of the English from certain parts of England and some from Scotland. About 200,000 Scots-Irish came to the Colonies - mostly to Philadelphia - between 1710 and 1775. Following the American Revolution, from 1783-1812, another 100,000 Scots-Irish came to America, and another half-million came between 1815 and 1845. The question is, can we document the arrival of these ballads with that first wave of immigrants, or with the second wave, or did they in fact not get here until the third wave between 1815 and 1845?

Are there records of family traditions that document the earlier arrival of these ballads? I'm thinking of places like the Beech Mountain and Sodom Laurel communities in North Carolina.

Please understand that I am not saying that these ballads did not arrive before the middle of the 1800s. I'm just wondering if we can actually document that they did in any way. Bronson does a good job of giving the historical dates for the tunes that he has collected for these ballads. I haven't begun to look at all of this material, but a very casual glance suggests that his tunes either come from an earlier period in the British Isles, or from the second half of the 1800s in America. Is there anything in between in America?

If I have somehow missed this discussion on Mudcat, please point me in the proper direction and let's not rehash it. Thanks. J.