Bronson tunes - Child Ballads

Subject: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST,pinelady
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 02:49 PM

Hello friends,

I'm wondering if anyone happens to know what publisher now has the rights to the Bronson book of tunes to the Child ballads. Or, for that matter, to the Child ballads. I don't know why they have been allowed to stay out of print so long. It occurs to me that if enough folk song societies wrote to whoever that publisher is and told them how many members they have, how much they want the books reissued, and how much people are paying for used editions, and if they offered to do everything in their power to publicise the existence of a new edition - that maybe it would happen - ???

What do you think? Has anyone got info to contribute?

Susan

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 02:54 PM

I suspect that Princeton University Presss still has the rights to Bronson's vols.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM

Child's collection is out of copyright, but whether any publisher would be prepared to underwrite a re-issue is a difficult question; at the moment I should say probably not, given the relatively small demand likely and the costs involved.  As Guest points out, Bronson's collection would still be in copyright.  One-off paperback reprints of the first two volumes can be had from  Books On Demand  for $156.00 (vol.1) and $181.40 (vol.2), but that's probably the closest to republication -and the cheapest price- they are likely to get for the time being; again, costs are such that a new issue just isn't an economic proposition for an unsubsidised publisher.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 06:11 PM

(hello Susan *smile*)...

from OUR viewpoint, there is lots of demand for these volumes and hundreds of people would likely buy a copy immediately, but from a publisher viewpoint hundreds..even several thousand...would not justify it. I suspect that they are expecting the material to become 'available' on the WWW/internet before they could make a profit.

The easiest way to get it, and probably cheaper, is to borrow a set and xerox until you drop!..

(Yes, some of us are acquainted with several sets)

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 06:50 PM

(pinelady & I sort of share ownership of the abridged version of Bronson...whoever needs it borrows it back)

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Dulci46
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 11:15 PM

I am curious about the name of this book, I have never heard of it, but would like to know more about it. When was it first published, and are the songs in it written by someone with this name. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Judy

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: IvanB
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:29 AM

Dulci, Bertrand Harris Bronson's The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, Vols I-IV (New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1959), is a compilation of tunes to the ballads collected by Francis James Child. Since Child collected only texts for the ballads, many consider Bronson the essential source for the tunes to which they should be sung. As mentioned above, it's very rare, and the few copies that do turn up in used booksellers' collections (and EXTREMELY rarely does a complete set appear for sale) are quickly snatched up at high prices.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: pavane
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM

I imagine that even though the book may be in copyright, the tunes themselves may not be. An index to the ballads and tunes could perhaps be compiled, and the tunes found from other sources.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Willie-O
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:39 AM

Don't know about Bronson, but there's no doubt that getting a new edition out of the original unabridged Child (how many volumes) would be massive and hugely expensive.

Like other interrested parties of modest means, I have a copy of the Helen Child Sargent/George Lyman Kittredge single-volume Cambridge Poets abridged edition. The copyright notice on it is: c 1904 and 1932 by George Lyman Kittredge. Doesn't that second copyright expire after 75 years? That would be...2007.

Now there's a niche publishing project...this edition has has all but 5 of the numbered Child ballads, typically 1-3 lyric variants of each, plus notes and glossary. And if it were published in Canada and sold a thousand copies, that would make it a Canadian best-seller! (certainly in the 'poetry' category).

W-O

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GeorgeH
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:45 AM

I seem to recall Child claimed (in his intro.?) that the tunes to the ballads were generally too well known to require publishing . . he did include some tunes (or tune fragments) of "rare and unusual" variants, but they only relate to a small fragment of the whole.

As far as I know the Dover paperback edition was the last full edition of Child to be published. Fortunately in the days when paperbacks used paper which would last more than 20 years . . .

George

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:21 AM

Certainly, as Pavane suggests, the tunes in Bronson could be re-compiled from the original sources; indeed, there is a lot of material accessible now that was not available to him.  If someone suitably knowledgable were able and willing to devote a decade or two of their life to it, maybe it could be done, though as with Child, much of the value of the work lies in the accompanying scholarship; however, the problem of publishing costs remains.  I should imagine that Princeton would happily re-publish if they were in a position to do so without incurring financial risk, but that doesn't seem to be on the cards as things stand.  As I said, the first two books can be bought as on-demand reprints, though not cheaply; they would not be cheap if fully republished, either.  The fact remains that very few people actually need to own the books, and many who do never use them; there are sets I know of which sit unopened in boxes from one year to another, galling though that may be.  Meanwhile, there are, fortunately, libraries, and, yes, photocopiers.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST,Susan of DT
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:23 AM

There are a couple of projects underway to republish Child and Bronson on CD ROM. The person heading the Child project expects it to be ready in 2002.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: pavane
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:39 AM

I would have thought that many of the tunes and many of the texts are already available online. It just needs someone with the knowledge (and time!) to link and index them. Of course, there are so many variants of both that it would not be practicable to create a 'complete' index, even if such a thing were possible - it would have to allow for additions. But I wasn't actually envisaging repeating the whole of the research!

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:09 AM

I would suspect that between this site (due to the Digital Tradition) and the Contemplator site - are included most if not all of the web-published child's ballads and the tunes. It's a lesser percentage then one would think, but is increasing.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Gypsy
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 11:23 AM

Books on Demand is a great thing. After doing the search for Bronsons, finally had a copy made. Yes, it was dear, but the lowest price i could find used was in the neighbourhood of 500.00. And before i get hit with the stories of 50.00 copies, that tends to be anecdotal. Have never seen it, or Child, at that price. And i looked, really i did!

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Abby Sale
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 04:11 PM

Bill D: I did that. Thing is, I'd been craving the things since they were first announced. A few years later my wife bought me vol.s I & II as a present - a full $25.00 each, a fortune for a book then! Someone ripped then off though, & we've been saddened ever since. Finally we did get them all from Inter-library Loan and set off to Office Depot & did the whole thing. Made a special deal with the manager re the cost per page since it was so much. Took weeks and weeks but I am indeed pleased and use it regularly. Punched holes & put them in loose-leaf so if anyone needs a fax of a particular song, just ask.

Thing is, there's no place on the Web to get this as there might be 25 or 50 tunes for a song. Or just one. Last I heard, though, both President Taylor of Edinburgh and Dick Greenhaus were independently (I couldn't get them to cooperate on it) doing them all up in simple midi. That's all you'd need. They'd each done the major part of them last I heard from them.

As to Child, the full Dover 5-volume is easily available through all the online used book & auction places. About $200, I believe. But I strongly recommend getting the Sargent/Kittridge abbreviated version (copyright 1904 & 1932 - I think the 1932 has some important revisions) I bought mine new in 1959, recently published by Houghton Mifflin of Boston, no date. It has all but 5 songs, a good intro, all of Child's notes and an excellent glossary. It basically covers all the "A" versions, most of the B's and a few C's or D's. I checked recently and noone seemed to think it had any value & was generally available at $8 to $25 at auction. It has never left my desk since I bought it.

If you get any of these, be sure to get the right edition. There are several books that are similarly titled. (Both Bronson and Child published other stuff, obviously.)

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: English Jon
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:51 AM

Susan, do you know any more about the CD Rom project?

EJ

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:52 AM

The CD-ROM edition of Child is progressing. Expected? release is 2002.

THe Bronson portion of the project is progressing more slowly, due to lack of both time and funds. It's a major undertaking--some ballads have over 100 tunes listed by Bronson, and it's often unclear as to how the words fit the melody (or vice versa). Present plans are to publish (on CD) a photocopy of Bronson's transcriptions, and a click-to-play-or-view the same tune (or a simplified version, if necessary) with words displayed (synchronized with the music).

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM

Just an approximation will do, "Any idea what this is going to cost me Dick ?" JohnB

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:11 PM

Like I said, just the knowlege that someone would undertake this project with WWW and CD-ROM now available is enough to give a publisher pause. Wish I was 30 years younger.(sort of)

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:04 PM

JohnB- I'm not involved directly with the Child project(s), and I'd hate to hazard a guess as to what the finished work will cost. Depends on how many colleges, libraries and the like will buy it.

The Bronson one will likely be a single CD, selling for (very roughly) $35 to $65. It's a long way off, though.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

Put me down for the $35 version Dick ;) Thnks for the info, JohnB

Subject: Bronson
From:
Date: 18 May 02 - 05:21 PM

Hi, I have heard you are going to put out Bronson's: Traditional Tunes to the Child Ballads. Is this true? If so can I ever thank you enough. Yours in great excitement, Ray Black.

Subject: RE: Bronson
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 02 - 05:41 PM

Who is you???

Subject: RE: Bronson
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 May 02 - 06:38 PM

Guest, I enjoyed the twist on the grammar!

Subject: RE: Bronson
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 May 02 - 09:54 PM

No concrete plans for a reissue just yet, so far as I can tell, but see these two earlier discussions for some relevant information:

New Edition of Child
Child Ballad site

Loomis House Press may perhaps be having informal discussions with Princeton University, who own the rights to Bronson's book; we shall have to see what happens. Meanwhile, there are always photocopiers..

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 02:04 AM

Transferred from the Help Forum.
-Joe Offer-

---

Subject: Bronson
From: [e-mail]
Date: 02-Jun-02 - 07:20 AM

Hello Mudcat folks,

Do you know if Bertrand Bronson's tunes to the Child ballads are available on the web?

All the best-- --Rick Gagne, Bath, New Hampshire

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 09:37 AM

Not to the best of my knowledge. I have never found them.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: MMario
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 09:07 AM

in the Thread re: Child's I have listed those Bronson Tunes I have available.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:21 AM

I think MMario should spend his money on the Bronson volumes instead of the Mudcat auction! ;-)

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:44 PM

I just got the Loomis Press edition of Child (Volume I) from Dick Greenhaus at Camsco. They've done a splendid job! Hope they hurry with the other four volumes!

Heritage Muse will have Volumes 1 and 10 of their digital version of Child ready to demonstrate at a big book dealer gathering at the end of the month. The remaining volumes should be ready by the end of the summer. I don't know what the price will be. They're working from the 1887 10 volume edition and will have OCR make it completely searchable. That'll be a help! They also plan to release a CD of sung examples to go along with it.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 04:52 AM

I wrote to Princeton UP a year ago and asked whether they planned to reprint etc. and never got an answer. My (complete) Bronson is the ring-bound type.

As to the "few" tunes published by Child in Vol V, I count 55, not a bad haul, and all from mss.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 08:22 AM

Not much I can add here except to say what a great work it is, and to say we have a copy in the Henry Watson library, Central reference library Manchester UK ( though it's not on the shelves; you have to ask for it. While I'm hear there's a photo copy of Oswalds "Caledonian Pocket Companion" (all 12 volumes) in Stockport library (again not on the shelves). All the best PP.

Subject: FJ Child Reissue
From: GUEST,Tom McKean
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM

Dear folks,

I've probably missed some one else's message saying this, but:

Loomis House Press is currently issuing a very nice looking New Edition of Child. What a nightmare. Glad someone else has done it! But don't look to those ol' texts, what about all the great field tapes currently being released? It's a good thing that Child and Bronson did their work when they did as there are far too many variants and versions out there now to do anything that could be considered nearly as authoritative.

Tom McKean

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 03:31 PM

Two extremely nice features of the Loomis House edition of Child are:

a: the tunes that are provided accompany the text, rather than being buried in an appendix in v. 5

AND

b: the tunes that were available to Child, but not included in his first edition, have been added.

volume I, the only one released as yet, sells for $25 in soft-cover (a quality binding job, much like the Dover edition) or $35 in hard cover. Yes, CAMSCO carries it.

Subject: Digital Child, Bronson, etc.
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:28 PM

A message from David Kleiman, of Heritage Muse, Inc., that was forwarded to Ballad-L on Nov. 18, 2002 (AFS is the October conference of the American Folklore Society):

"...the new web-site goes live this week. Since we announced all this at AFS here is the latest scoop.

1 - At AFS, at the NOMAD Festival, and elsewhere, I have been demoing the actual Child product (Heritage Collectors #1) to live audiences here in the northeast.

2 - Due to technical issues the target release date slipped. Those issues have been wonderfully resolved and we are working our proverbial rear-ends off to put the package in folks hands around Christmas (this year). It may be tight but if the manufacturer can move fast enough we can do it.

3 - Demos of some of the product features will be available on the web-site by end of this week.

4 - Heritage Collectors # 2, to follow Child, will be "Traditional American Folk Songs from the Anne & Frank Warner Collection". We're doing this in an expanded edition with 20+ new songs/ballads added onto the original. Same format aa the Child (digital, searchable text; computer playable tunes; new maps; an accompanying audio CD; etc.). SLated for release Spring/Summer 2003.

5. - Heritage Collectors # 3 - Bronson's full four volumes of the tunes for the Child Ballads. To be published in cooperation with Princeton University Press. Same treatment as above. Slated for Fall/Winter 2003.

6. - Heritage Collectors Other Projects - We have an agressive agenda for the Heritage Collectors Digital Folk Music Library and have already begun work on: "The Collected Works of Cecil Sharp", "The Abandoned Child", several previously unreleased, private collections and a two volume set of Maritime/Naval/Chantey collectors (British and American). Overall we're looking at 10-12 projects in the next 5-6 years. We'll have to see how the Child and subsequent projects go.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,

David M. Kleiman
President
Heritage Muse, Inc. and ESPB
Publishing, Ltd.
165 West End Avenue - Suite 12D
New York, NY 10023
212-724-7840 (office)
917-575-9633 (cell)
[e-mail]
www.heritagemuse.com

The advantage of a digital edition of the original Child (aside from the extras they'll add), in comparison to the recent revised print edition, is that it's searchable and the page references will be consistent with earlier workers' citations.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Digital Child, Bronson, etc.
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:35 PM

Sorry, that link above that's supposed to be for e-mailing David Kleiman got turned into a web link. Copy the text as above or use the contact info on the Heritage Muse web site.

~ Becky N.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

To be fair to Loomis House, they also give the original page numbering in the margins, so references aren't hard to trace. Although searchability is a big plus, so is being able to leaf through a book and make serendipitous discoveries; it's "horses for courses", really.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:40 PM

both the CD and the remaining Loomis Volumes are on my wish list. I find that electronic and hard copy are useful for different things.

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:58 PM

Well, let it never be said that I personally prefer pixels to print... the piles of books overflowing the shelves around me attest to that! And I sure wouldn't want the Loomis House folks to lose their shirts and give up on it all.

That said, these digital editions sound pretty exciting to me!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:15 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: cshurtz
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:39 AM

Does anyone have any updates on this post. Have the Bronson books been digitalized by anyone?

Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:21 AM

Not legally, so far. The (legitimate) 'Heritage Muse' project is already several years behind schedule (their website doesn't seem to have been updated since September 2003, either) and, on previous showing, if and when it does eventually appear it will be unwieldy in construction and 'copy protected' to the extent that half the people who buy it won't be able to run it anyway.

It's a great pity that the project was not put in the hands of an outfit competent to handle it. Perhaps nobody else wanted the job. Meanwhile, if you don't fancy growing old and grey waiting, I would suggest that you locate the nearest library that has a set, and make your own arrangements.

---

Threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Magjam
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 12:01 PM

Hi
Does anyone know of anywhere I can get Bronsons tunes as midi, abc, nwc or anysuch yet. Heritage are useless even though they're advertising. Is there anything else online apart from Contemplator and Mudcat?

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 01:24 PM

You need to be more specific about why Mudcat & Contemplator are not sufficient. Most sites who have midis got them from one of those sites.

What are you trying to do...just 'collect them all' or learn some songs? There are various ways to get what tunes are available...and not all of the ballads HAVE extant tunes.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 01:26 PM

Is it specifically Bronson tunes you want? There are variants not from Bronson.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 02:08 PM

Hmmm. By "Heritage," I suppose you mean Heritage Muse, which put out a digital version of the Child Ballads with some tunes.
There has been discussion of a MIDI transcription of Bertrand Harris Bronson's four-volume The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, but it hasn't been done yet.
Some of us have Bronson or the one-volume condensation of Bronson's work. Many of us would be happy to transcribe a tune or two on request, but not the whole work.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 07:27 PM

I currently have a set of Child - which when I get back from holiday, will go on sale on ebay and then if not sold to a book auction.

If anyone is well enough off to want a copy - published 1882 - 1898 limited edition of 1,000 and in good condition - PM me.

It falls into the category of "If you ask the price you can't afford it"- but to mudcatters - around £1200.00 delivered UK.

I have sold 5 (five) sets of Bronson over the past year or so and each purchaser has been delighted (I think!!)

It sells for around £750 - £900.00 depending upon condition.

And before anyone mentions it - every single copy of Bronson I have sold has gone to a person I personally know will make good use of it.

I have never come across a purchaser in this area of expensive books who is not a musician or a singer.

Despite what people say - there is a minute market of people who hoard books for investment purposes - and speaking as a specialist book dealer I have never met anyone who does that with books about folk music. J.K. Rowling yes, Bertrand H. Bronson - no.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 10:57 PM

"a set of Child "...just what is this? Is this the set from "The British Poets" series that was published in 8 books? (I have a set of '8 volumes in 4' from about that period.

There was the large, unedited set, then the final winnowed down to the 300 'official' ones.

(I hope I said that somewhere near clearly)

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 11:04 PM

This, I believe, is what I have in 4 leatherbound volumes

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 01:31 PM

"...and not all of the ballads HAVE extant tunes."

Indeed not; a fair few have little or no history as 'traditional songs' in the way most of us would understand the term. On the other hand, some of them occur in scores of different versions, each with its own distinct tune, which is why to transcribe Bronson would be such an intimidating task. As Bill D said, it all depends on what the questioner actually needs.

Incidentally, I was one of those who purchased a full set of Bronson from Folkiedave, and I am indeed delighted with it - even though it took the sale of some rare books of my own to raise what knowledgable friends have told me was a very fair asking price.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,folkiedave - abroad and cookieless
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 01:44 PM

Thanks for that Brian - it is appreciated. The set of Child I am selling is emphatically not the British poets series!!

Child did that as a sort of "hack-work" by which I mean he was simply paid for writing it (around 1858-59 from memory). It was the researches for that - a lot from secondary sources - which inspired him to do the second work from primary sources which became (if you like) the Child Ballads.

These were published in a limited edition of 1,000 and in ten volumes between 1882 and 1898 in a unbound and uncut set, each one individually numbered. The idea was that you had them cut and then bound yourself after they had all been published.

Bronson´s Traditional Tunes was published 1958 to 1972 but not in equal numbers, so number 4 is rare.

HTH

Dave

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Marc Bernier
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 04:18 PM

Loomis House Press is up to volume III of V now. Just bought the 3, in hard cover. They'r beautiful.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 09:39 PM

Bronson #1 appeared in my college library in about 1961,,,and I kept going back, looking for more until I left there in 1971....and they only had #2. I thought I'd never see the rest....but now I know of 3-4 sets within driving distance ...among friends....I don't think at my age I'll bother trying to own a set.

   I have the Dover set, and the old "British Poets" set...and many, many recordings to listen to....plus the paperback 'condensed Bronson'. I guess I'll manage.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 12:52 AM

All the volumes of The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (1882-1898) are available at Internet Archive.

The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 1, part 1) [nos. 1-28]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 1, part 2) [nos. 29-53]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 2, part 4) [nos. 83-113]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 3, part 5) [nos. 114-155]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 3, part 6) [nos. 156-188]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 4, part 7) [nos. 189-225]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 4, part 8) [nos. 226-265]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 5, part 10) [Additions etc.]
The English And Scottish Popular Ballads (Vol. I, pts. 1-4) (rpt. Folklore Press/Pageant Book Company, 1956) [nos. 1-113]
The English And Scottish Popular Ballads (Vol. V, pts. 9-10) (rpt. Folklore Press/Pageant Book Company, 1956) [nos. 266-305, and additions]

Helen Child Sargent and George Lyman Kittredge, eds., English and Scottish Popular Ballads (1904)

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 03:59 AM

I am another satisfied customer of Folkiedave. The Bronson he sold me was immaculate and worth every penny ( quite a few!)
And I use the books - they haven't gathered dust on my shelves.
Mary

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Roberto
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 04:34 AM

Folkiedave, I've sent a PM to you, but I think you won't read it, being abroad and cookieless as you say you are. Abroad and cookieless could be a fine title for a faraway ballad. R

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 04:52 AM

Dave, Do these books - Child/Bronson ever appear on your web-site or is it 'personal callers only'?

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,OLDNICKILBY
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 11:20 AM

There is an excellent site for finding books at competitive prices and the range is amazing. Try ABEBOOKS, There are often sets of Child on there, it is always worth a look as the stock changes with great rapidity
Dont knock the 1854 edition of British Ballads as there are many songs in there that are not in the 1884 edition.
The last volume ,10, was published much later and is often missing.
I got my 4 vol Bronson and 2 vol Sharp Folk songs of England from there and both have been very useful in giving versions of the songs to my friends
Good Hunting
Old Nic
Young No More

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 12:54 PM

Usually for Bronson I have a waiting list. There is not much of qa secret to obtaining them I usually purchase them from people´s libvraires when they are selling up, occasionally dealers.

Thus they rarely appear on the website because I have sold them "before I have bought them" if you see what I mean.

I recommend ABE too.

Now I am going to see if I can get a cookie on this computer - internet cafe in Spain.

Dave

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 01:08 PM

Sorry - that was me again - and please excuse the wobbly typing if any - I am getting used to a Spanish keyboard again.

I apologise in advance for the non updating of the website. The truth is that I bought a huge library in January last year and I needed to sell some books - or so my wife said as she left me vowing never to return until I did. She came back on the strict promise that I would book into a whole rake of festivals (which is the easiest way to get a quick sale of materials).

We can now almost get into the living room again. The website should be updated when I return from this trip, and then I shall start putting stuff onto lists and finally onto ebay.

If it has not sold by then I shall be resigned to the single life.

May Humphreys, thank you for those kind words, I knew when I sold them they had gone to a good home and you and Brian Peters had two of the most immaculate sets i have ever seen.

I am dleighted you are pleased - again if you see what I mean!

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 05:57 PM

Thanks to Masato for reminding us that images of the books ARE available, and though it is nice to have a hard copy in your lap, no one need do without the information and texts. (It is, of course, possible to download the PDF files and print the whole thing....)

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 10:39 AM

When I began my researches [such as they were ! :-)] some 40 years ago, there were some volumes of Bronson's 'Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads' in the Henry Watson Music Library, Manchester Central Library, St Peter's Square.

I can't remember whether it was a complete set, but this might be an age thing.

I remember trying to find a tune for 'Willie's Lady'. I do not read music, so it was a case of putting the notes on to a stave, taking it home, deciding which was the bottom note and calling that 'doh', then working through the sol-fa. Tedious, time-consuming, frustrating at times and ponderous, I know, but it worked.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:31 PM

As far as I know, the Henry Watson Music library still has Bronson, though I would appreciate some information on that from any Mancunian who has a reader's ticket.
A colleague of mine who had access to information about Leeds City library said that they were considering throwing their copy out some years ago. We need to have a campaign to keep such important traditional research available to those who want to learn from scholarship of this order. The volumes may not be borrowed frequently, but their importance should not be compared to pulp fiction.
The John Rylands University Library of Manchester used to have a set, but I am not certain that it still does. ( I used to borrow it far more than I ever borrowed Biology books - that was what I was supposed to be reading!). Terry Whelan told me that he bought three volumes from them because the fourth volume was missing, and later found the fourth volume to complete the set from someone in the USA who had failed to return it to the library after completing their studies.
A Manchester Uni student could do a search and let us know. Anyone out there?

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:10 AM

What Mary Humphreys (sut mae, gyfeill ?) said.

Throwing a 'Bronson' out is IMABHO a gross act of vandalism.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:01 AM

I have noticed a worrying trend of late, certainly in my neck of the woods.

In former days our main library would periodically hold a 'sale' of books withdrawn from circulation. It was rather a hit and miss affair, but at least it provided an opportunity to 'rescue' books of musical value from destruction.

These days ALL withdrawn books are sent off immediately to be pulped. You'd have thought the library would have been grateful for the extra income generated by the sales.

I shudder to think how many musical gems have suffered that fate.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:30 AM

I spoke to one of the Print-on-demand publishers not all that long ago. The told me there were no plans to re-issue vols. 3+4 at that time.

As a bookseller, naturally I deplore people having access via the web and or photocopiers.

As a folkie so long as it is not blatantly illegal - well ok!! :-)

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:56 PM

There'll be a formal announcement in a couple of days, but CAMSCO Music has just re-issued (legally) the four volumes of Bronson's The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads. It will be available in either soft or hard cover, will sell for $40 per volume (soft) and $50 per (hard)

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: SylviaN
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:18 PM

Hi Dick - Great news and full marks for a job well done. Keith and I will have a set each, please. Let us know when we can do the deal.

Sylvia and Keith

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Jim P
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:26 PM

This is fantastic news. Good for you!

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Andymac (just restarted my work PC so cookie
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:48 AM

Dick,

That's great news indeed! Any chances of them being shippable to Scotland?

I'd be grateful if you'd PM me about costs etc once you have time to answer the inevitable flood of requests.

Andy..

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:43 AM

Me too - I've got a birthday coming up.

Valmai

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:34 AM

Andymac-
It looks like we'll be able to have them printed in the UK, too---avoiding those godawful carriage costs. I'm working in conjunction with Loomis House--the folks that are issuing the new edition of Child--and we're still ironing out some details.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 02:27 PM

That's great, Dick! Another priceless service to the folkie community!

Will start saving up now....

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 02:45 PM

Dick G. "It looks like we'll be able to have them printed in the UK, too---avoiding those godawful carriage costs."

That's terrific news Dick. Well, the whole project is. But the carriage cost is the big pain in the ass as far as ordering anything of that size from the States is concerned. Any idea when they'll be available over here?

BTW. A salutary tale. Liverpool Central Library reference section once had a complete set. Some years ago, I needed to check same. The librarian had no idea what it was I was after, and no record of anything by anyone called Bertrand Bronson. The best guess I can make is that they were sold in one of the many sales by which Liverpool decimated its priceless book collection. Probably bought by a dealer for around £5-00 per volume. Probably sold on by same dealer for 20+ times what he paid for them. TLF.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:50 PM

I don't have an exact UK price as yet, but it should be equivalent to the US prices I mentioned. BTW, the soft cover version is priced at exactly the same amount as the original publication (ca 1972).

I hope to make the formal, detailed announcement later this week.
I, for one, am very excited about the whole thing.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM

Fred McC - I had a similar experience in Liverpool many years ago - perhaps mid-70s. The Reference Department card-catalogue showed four volumes of Bronson - only two could be found. Similar gaps were found when I looked for other folk-song collections. The librarian I spoke to had no explanation other than theft - unimaginable to me at the time, but far more expensive volumes have been systematically looted from British libraries, both from public collections and from University libraries where you might expect a higher level of security. But it is also deplorable that reference books such as this have been arbitrarily discarded for space-saving reasons in the way you describe. Equally criminal.

Ross

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

Dick - I meant to add congratulations on getting the Bronson volumes out there again. My own set accumulated gradually over about twenty years, finally being completed by a good friend some years ago. A treasure (to have a friend who would bring such a treasure!)

Ross

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:24 PM

Dick,
I'd say this is one of the most important announcements for years, possibly since they were first published. In some ways it's even more important than Child itself in that almost everything in Child is available elsewhere and has been much published. Almost everyone is text based so hopefully this availablilty should go a long way to redressing the enormous imbalance between text study and tune study.

I have had a set for several years now, but this is still really exciting news.

I take my hat off to you, sir!
Have you announced this on the Ballad List yet?

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:41 PM

Great news. I should be up for a set too.

Mick

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:21 PM

I'm waiting for the first lot to come back from the printer before I really go public with this---I'n cautious enough to ant to be sure that everything came out all right.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: trayton
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:03 AM

You are a hero Dick, Moira and I will be up for a set.

I do hope your name is printed in the credits, somewhere in the books, as an enduring record of this fine service to the folk community.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:38 AM

Ross, you'll be glad to know that Liverpool has a pretty good security system these days. Too late alas, especially as Liverpool's onetime wonderful collection of music books has now been largely dissipated through public sales.

BTW., and apologies for the thread drift, but some time ago I needed to access a scarse and important audio anthology of child ballads. Naturally I enquired of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library. Yes, they'd got a copy listed on catalogue, but the entire set had disappeared. The best guess that Malcolm Taylor could make was that they'd been stolen, probably in the 1970s when a lot of stuff got nicked from VWML. Somebody who figured they could sell them for a bob or two perhaps? Even worse, could it have been one of the army of wanabee folksingers who were knocking around in those days, who figured he could make a career for himself singing Child ballads? I don't know, but the abstraction of such valuable resources is just despicable.

"I had a similar experience in Liverpool many years ago - perhaps mid-70s. The Reference Department card-catalogue showed four volumes of Bronson - only two could be found. Similar gaps were found when I looked for other folk-song collections. The librarian I spoke to had no explanation other than theft - unimaginable to me at the time, but far more expensive volumes have been systematically looted from British libraries, both from public collections and from University libraries where you might expect a higher level of security. But it is also deplorable that reference books such as this have been arbitrarily discarded for space-saving reasons in the way you describe. Equally criminal."

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:38 AM

GUEST Steve Gardham, what is this Ballad List of which you speak? It sounds interesting.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Valmai

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:57 AM

Ballad list:
[e-mail]>
List-Subscribe:
[e-mail]
List-Owner:
mailto:[e-mail]
List-Archive:
http://jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?LIST=BALLADS

It's nothing like Mudcat, mostly announcements.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: BB
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:51 PM

Dick, you've just reduced the (monetary) value of our complete set of Bronson at a stroke! Seriously, they are invaluable to anyone interested in the 'big' ballads, and it's fantastic that they're going to be more widely available. Worth every penny, believe me!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM

Unfortunately the ballad list I meant, that Dick contributes to, is the American one, Indiana University. As it predated the English ones we were all already using Indiana and continued to do so. Obviously the more the merrier when it comes to discussing ballads and that means all interested parties on both sides of the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Songster Bob
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:42 PM

Sigh. I have the complete original set of Bronson, seldom if ever use it, and now it's lost a lot of what had been its high value because of Dick's announcement up above. Ah, well, wasn't thinking of selling anyway, despite that "we could use the money" feeling.

Songbob

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 11:34 PM

Songbob---

♫violins playing sadly♫

☺

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: karen k
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:36 AM

Dick, Will they be coming out one at a time like the Loomis Child books or the whole set at once? I need this.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Susan of DT
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 09:00 AM

Karen - All volumes are ready

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:31 AM

Any news?

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Adele Treskillard
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM

Yeah, any news?????

Smiles from a marvelling Sherwood!

Adele : )

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM

Although I have a set already, I am still awaiting their ready availablity in hopes that this might stimulate an interest in the ballad tunes among the young. The tunes are a much understudied area of our music.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 02:01 AM

I eagerly await details. The Lewes Saturday Folk Club runs one or two all-day ballad forums a year and we'd be very happy to display fliers for the books every week.

Our next all-day ballad forum is with Tom & Barbara Brown on Saturday 21st. November.

Valmai

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM

I'm another who paid up for an original set (which I will continue to cherish). But like Steve I'm glad they're going to be more widely available - a wonderful resource!

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: doc.tom
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM

And Tom & Barbara will be bringing their old copies of Bronson along to the ballad forum at Lewes in November (see Valmai's post above). So anyone who doesn't know what people mean by 'Bronson' can come and browse (that should put the re-issue sales up a bit!) We'll also have some of our other ballad books along too.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:14 AM

An excellent plan, Tom. Keep them on a strong chain!

Valmai

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,The Horse's Mouth
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:14 PM

Ye Gods! A set of Bronson for less than hundreds of quids? I want one. Please let me know when the English issue becomes available Mr. Greenhause.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 12:30 AM

Dick showed it to me and I immediately ordered mine.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 07:57 PM

Well it's official. It's out!
About time, too....every Child should have a companion. But rathervthan add to this already-lengthy thread, I've started a new one.

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Peter Shepheard
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 03:55 PM

The Loomis House reprint of Bronson's The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads is available through Springthyme both in UK and for Worldwide distribution - priced at £22 per volume (paperback) and £28 (hardback):
Link: Bronson: Traditional Tunes - full set for £87

We have also been distributing the Loomis House reprint of Child's: The English and Scottish Ballads for several years - since the first volume was published in 2001.

Bronson: Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads - Special Bargain: POST FREE (to UK and Ireland) : BUY ALL FOUR VOLUMES TOGETHER and be offered a FREE CD with fully searchable files for the complete collection: 2,200 pages of tunes and texts with notation for 4,120 tunes. The bargain of the century!

The Singing Tradition - that is, Bertrand H Bronson's The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads, is a single-volume, abridged edition of Bronson's four volume The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads.

To create this edition, Bronson selected those tunes and texts which had the strongest representation in the oral tradition, excluding those from the original collection which only existed in print. The volume has an excellent new introduction where Bronson analyses the essential unity of a ballad text and tune and he shows how ballad tunes have evolved to produce tune families. His introduction to the modal structure of tunes in the Anglo-American tradition is essential reading for singers and students of the ballad tradition.

Dick Greenhaus of Camsco Music was the driving force behind the Bronson reprint - obtaining permission from the original publishers Princeton University Press and then working with Loomis House Press to arrange the republishing. Loomis in the United States had already set about republishing Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads and we at Springthyme in Scotland arranged to distribute the Loomis Child volumes through our website. The four volume of Bronson's Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads became available earlier this year and now the condensed Singing Tradition in November 2009 is an alternative for those without the funds or the bookshelf space for the full set.

All these are available from Springthyme - including a special bargain price on the four volume set of Bronson: BUY ALL FOUR VOLUMES TOGETHER and be offered a FREE CD with fully searchable files for the complete collection: 2,200 pages of tunes and texts with notation for 4,120 tunes. The bargain of the century!

Have a look at:
Bronson: Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads
More about Bronson's 'Traditional Tunes' & 'Singing Tradition'

For years it has been almost impossible to get the full set of Bronson (and the cost could be well over £1000) and the condensed edition has been near £100 (paperback) and up to £400 for the hardback. Congratulations to Dick at Camsco!

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:12 PM

So now is my original, pristine set of Bronson worth much less than before? It's (sigh) virtually unused, and sits proudly on a shelf where it does, well, not much good, in that I almost never open it.

What happens to the perceived value of such books when reprints are available? Could I really have gotten a thousand pounds for it before, or could I still get a thousand pounds for it now?

What does happen to values of such items, which are scarce but useful (as opposed to scarce but useless, like diamonds)?

Just wondering.


Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:20 PM

Picking my set of the new publications tomorrow/Thursday- whoopee. I'm now wondering why I didn't know that my paperback single volume from the 70's was worth so much !! I might have treated it with even more care and concern than I originally did!!

Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Gordon Tyrrall
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:23 PM

Great news, I shall be ordering a full set immediately.I've used Bronson a lot - they had the full set in Leeds Public Library until the useless buggers lost it - unbelievable!