Irish Child Ballads in Canada

Subject: Folklore: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:08 AM

Advice please
I've been gathering examples of Irish versions of Child Ballads for some time now and have extended my search to the US and Canada
The N.E. States of the US have proved a goldmine, but I'm having some difficulty with the Canadian/Newfoundland ones
Helen Creighton, Edith Fowke and Maud Karpeles mention in their collections that many of their singers came from Ireland, but seldom identify which they are - likewise Trevor Peacock
Any idea who I might contact for such information or Journals I might consult ?
I think the editor of 'The Canadian Folk Song Journal' once posted to this site - I'm not even sure it still exists
Any help would be much appreciated and earn them a seat at the right hand of... name your traditional song hero
Thanks in anticipation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 09:09 AM

Try Shelley Posen. If he doesn’t know, he knows who does.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 09:18 AM

See if this is any help:

http://gestsongs.com/indexnav.htm

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 12:13 PM

The following link has nothing to do with your request, Jim, but I thought you'd find it of interest.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/medieval-irish-dictionary-updated?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page&fbclid=IwA

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 12:58 PM

Many thanks all
The readiness of people to help on this forum never fails to impress me
Don't know about Shelley Posen, but I'll look him up
The Peacock site is very interesting - will search that thoroughly later (I ment to write Kenneth Peacock, of course
I'm mmaking my way through Maud Karpeles Folk Songs of Newfoundland at present - a number of fine ballads there, though, like the others, she refes to Irish singers rather than identifying them
I wonder if anybody has a contact number or information on David Gregory, who wrote a superb account of her Newfoundland trip (availabke as PDF on line)
Thanks again
Jim

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 01:19 PM

E David Gregory, the academic, is of English origin, English educated at Keele University, and now a Canadian Citizen. He is excellent on A L Lloyd. There are two long essays by him on that topic online. He has a web site at Athabasca University. If you use google, you will find an email address for him on that University web site.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 01:34 PM

davidg at athabascau dot ca Squeeze it all together as one 'word'.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 02:50 PM

Thanks amillion
Never ceases .....
Jim

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 04:23 PM

There is a reasonably good overview in the Canadian Encyclopedia. Takes about five minutes to read:

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/ballads-emc

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 02:30 AM

This is great, it'already helping me work through the collections I have
Jim

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 08:25 AM

Jim, if I may be of assistance in terms of looking for information regarding specific Child ballads, please say so. I understand there are 305 of them according to this Wikipedia link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Child_Ballads

If you'd like me to look into specific ones to see if there's a Canadian context/history, just point, ok? Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 09:53 AM

The sticky part is that he's looking for Irish versions of the Child Ballads. You know, the English and Scottish popular ballads. So is it the songs in Irish, or the songs that have come to Canada from Ireland, or ???.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:12 AM

I am unable to create a link to the following, but if you copy and paste the following into Google it will take you there. It is entitled

THE CHILD BALLAD IN CANADA: A SURVEY1
LAUREL DOUCETTE and COLIN QUIGLEY

(I cannot find a publication date. However, it is likely post-1976.)

file:///C:/Users/User1/Downloads/21820-Article%20Text-32314-1-10-20140513%20(1).pdf

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:14 AM

"So is it the songs in Irish"
Sorry Jeri
I meant English language version which established themselves in Ireland
As far as I know there are only five Child Ballads in Irish - it was thought there were only four but I think I've added a fifth
Jim

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:19 AM

Good point - I would have thought that most Child ballads collected in Canada were of Scots or Irish origin but that it would be difficult often to tell from which of the two.

I would like to mention Raymond's Folk Song Page. It is not a primary source but there are number of sources suggested for each ballad that would be worth following up. It does mention Joe Estey of New Brunswick and his performance of Hind Horn which is very near the top of my all-time favourites of ballads performed by traditional singers.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:25 AM

One more thing: Another area to check into are Upper Canada (present-day Ontario); Lower Canada (present-day Quebec; Northwest Territories; and possibly St Pierre and Miquelon, which despite being a 'collectivity' of France is just spitting distance from Newfoundland. (These are "notes to self" so I don't forget.)

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:32 AM

I meant English language version which established themselves in Ireland
This brings Jim up against another problem. There are ballads from The British Isles collected in Canada which seem to have disappeared from these islands. Off the top of my head, I can think of The Rose Of Britain's Isle (Laws N16) and The Plains of Waterloo (Roud 960 ; Laws N32). Yes, neither are Child ballads but they exemplify the lost-in-Britain process.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM

Many more than those Vic
In fact the English brought a load of songs to Canada
Philip Donellan made a fascinating two-part programme entitled 'Passage West' the second of which dealt with the migrations from Britain - The Potteries sticks in mind
My aim is solely around Child Ballads, but there's a few lifetimes to be spent on tracing the songs
If anybody is interested, Helen Hartness Flanders's site has loads of songs which went to the N.E. States of America
The quality isn't great but they're well worth the effort
As far as Iruish Child ballads go, one of her main singers, Mrs Sullivan (originally from Cork) sang sixteen of them
One of the weirdest finds was an version of 'The Broom of Cowdenknowes" learned in Irelandjust after the Famine
This has been a real voyage of discovery
Jim

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:55 AM

Thanks for the clarification, Jim.
I agree with Charmion, who suggested contacting Shelley Posen.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: meself
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 11:30 AM

Bit of a correction to an earlier post: 'Lower Canada' was present-day Quebec - not the North-West Territories, nor St. Pierre & Miquelon.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM

"Shelley Posen."
Thanks to both of you for that
I'd never heard of him and have just looked him up - he sounds just the source I'm looking for
I've now got an e-mail address and will contact him as soon as-
Jim

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: meself
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 11:36 AM

Btw, in the 1980s, I encountered the tail-end of an English-language ballad tradition among Scottish-Metis in Manitoba, including Barbara Allan, Gay Spanish Maid, Lake of Coolfinn(?), and others, among songs and ballads with North American origins. Anne Lederman would have recorded more of this than I did; presumably she had these archived somewhere official.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM

Good clarification, meself. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 12:17 PM

Messages now sent to Shelley Posen and David Gregory
Everything crossed
Jim

Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 04:40 PM

Jim,
I have a reference to Child Ballads found in Ireland in Notes and Queries for July to December 1885, p223. It's by W F Prideaux a regular contributor, and refers to Lamkin, The Two Sisters and The Grey Cock. I know you will have versions of these but the references might be useful. I can send you a copy if you wish.