BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM

How do you know the weapons weren't at the ready?

Caorol's video shows soldiers descending.
The firing does not start until much later.
I find it hard to believe that IDF commandos would allow themselves to be clubbed into submission without firing a shot if they had weapons to hand.

Your uncritical acceptance of one side of the story is foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM

Lox stated:

"Firstly it is important to note that there is NO evidence of a large scale cultural antisemitism as described in your article".

I am not sure where your last comments to me come from?

Possibly there was a suggestion of something like that included somewhare in an article I linked to (I did not notice it, or I would have stated that this is not my position) to make another point. To be clear, that was not a position I hold.

BuAlso, it was not "my article" as you state. In fact, I have not given a position on "a large scale cultural antisemitism" To tell you the truth, I have not even thought about this, done any research, nor have a current position on that. Just because some posts an article for consideration, it does not mean all contents on the site is their position, nor the article "their article".

I do not believe I have accused anyone here of anti sematism. I do not equate being anti Israeli or having a position (or being associated with like minded groups) on the Palestine-Israel issue with antisemitism... However, I recognise some do suggust such a connection.I have mostly stayed clear of that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM

"Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready."

1. How do you know the weapons weren't at the ready?

2. Testimony from the passengers states that live ammo was fired from above and from the boats before the troops landed. This testimony is corroborated by the commentary in the live feed which states that some of the passengers were wounded before any troops landed.

It is clear that the troops did not expect the resistance they encountered, but this says nothing about whether or not they were the aggressors, it just shows that they underestimated the determination of the people on board.

It is really important to ask who is trying to cover the evidence up and who is trying to make it public.

The question of who is telling the truth is best answered by that factor alone.

Israel has engaged in a clear policy of falsified evidence, secrecy, accusations of terrorist links and accusations of global anti semitism.

Nowhere do I see them saying "here is the evidence, we welcome an independent enquiry"

There is not much that is believable about the official Israeli positon.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

DonT ".....its apparent intention of starving the inhabitants of Gaza so that they will leave, or die."


"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them. It does not prevent the daily arrival, via Israel, of between 100 and 120 trucks laden with foodstuffs, medical supplies and humanitarian goods of every kind. Humanity is not "in danger" in Gaza, and it is a lie to state that people are "dying of hunger" in the streets of Gaza City."

Bernard-Henri Lévy
Haaretz, Wed.June 9, 2010

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

Hamas TV clip referred to above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HThF8ft5Cls

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

"While I have been dissapointed in the past, I hold onto a faith in humanity and people care about people...regardless of their ethnic background and history, religeon, or natioinality."

Right on Ed - hold onto that - it maybe all we have left.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:09 AM

Emma, the cock up I find most likely was the soldiers being left vulnerable and exposed. The fight was not anticipated and perhaps should have been. The day before Hamas TV showed an interviewee who said that some on board wanted martyrdom more than they wanted to get to Gaza.

You are suggesting that there was an attack, a cock up, but then the soldiers would not have landed one at a time without weapons at the ready.
Hard to believe I think.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM

Was the blockade legal: I suspect so, as they have been impsed by states before and international law seems fuzzy in this area.

Was the blockade wise to impose:No

Was the blockade excessive (though to me it is more like a quarintine): Most certainly

Is there a case to be made that it breaks humaritarian laws: I feel there is a good one, and would expect the UN to be more agressive in dealing with it.

Has the blockade helped Israel? Maybe it halted an escallation of the Hamas rocket fire, but in the long run it can only hurt Israel.

Has the Blockade helped the long term Hamas cause: Yes

Has the Blockade hurt the peace process. I see that the jury is out on this one. It did little to build trust and has focused opinion against Israel (not for those aready clearly opposed to Israel).It may increase international pressure on Israel to work towards peace. But, peace requires trust and willing partners...not just international pressure.

Would international santions force Israel into a peace process and to make concessions? I feel this would be no more effective in changing Israel's position than changing the position of Hamas through a blockade. So, my answer is no.

Do Hamas and Israel care about the impact of the blockade on civilians. The site below seems to state that concern for civilians is often secondary to broader objectives of governments involved. However, I would like to believe people care about people...beyond those broader national/government/military strategic issues or goals. But, I have been often dissapointed by governments before. While I have been dissapointed in the past, I hold onto a faith in humanity and people care about people...regardless of their ethnic background and history, religeon, or natioinality.

Here is a perspective on blockades:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/TC.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:04 AM

You know edT,

In the UK recently we have seen the formaton of a new group of right wing nationalists called the English Defence Leaugue.

They hold rallies outside mosques and exist to drive Moslems out of Britain.

They are comosed of football thugs and other BNP old guard.

I suggest you look at some of the Youtube videos of them as they chant their slogans of hate.

You may be surprised to see a few Israeli flags being waved.

There is conflict brewing at a very low level in the UK between Jews and Moslems.

Firstly it is important to note that there is NO evidence of a large scale cultural antisemitism as described in your article.

But secondly, what tension that does exist is as much the product of Islamophobia as it is a product of Anti-semitism.

In addition, there have not been similar rallies by moslems outside synagogues.

Islamophobia is also heavily promoted by newspapers like the sun, the mail and the express, and moslems are an at risk section of society in the UK as a result of this, much more so than British Jews.


Gerald Kaufman, Friend of Golda Meyer and Jewish Member of the UK Parliament has criticized Israel for hiding behind the holocaust and accusations of anti-semitism in an attempt to justify what he describes as the murder of palestinians.


I personally, coming from an Irish perspective, know that it is essential to recognize political problems as just that political problems, and not religious or cultural ones.

Political problems need political solutions.

Blaming the whole world for being Jew haters in response to accusations of Human rights abuses and racism is not an effective political solution.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM

Lox, I find that scenario easier to beieve than the alternative, i.e.
1 Israelis thought it a good idea to make this the first and only antiblockade ship they have ever fired on.
2 Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready.

The previous treatment of Israeli prisoners would influence how their friends and comrades reacted to this abduction.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:58 AM

Keith I am more likely to subscribe to the theory of 'major military cock-up' these are by no means unknown in history

Neither is the tendency to present such a cock-up resulting in an unacceptable loss of life as something different in order to 'save face' a prime example of which was disastrous charge of British cavalry led by Lord Cardigan against Russian forces during the Battle of Balaclava in the Crimean War immortalized by Alfred, Lord Tennyson, whose lines have made the charge a symbol of courageous warfare

Writing in Haaretz Reuven Pedatzur reports

"Perhaps the commanders of the Israel Navy and policymakers should have read history books before sending special forces to raid boats carrying civilians."
"The operational details of Israel's takeover of the flotilla of boats headed to Gaza won't be clear for many days, if ever. But there's no need to wait for a blow-by-blow account to point out that from the military point of view, it is hard to understand how an action that the Israel Navy spent so long planning ended up in so severe a debacle."

"And that's without even addressing the questions that arise regarding how wise it was to carry out a military action against civilian craft in international waters."

"The decision to act at night is also problematic. Presumably, some of the commotion and the hysteria on the ship was a result of the fact that neither the soldiers nor the civilians could see clearly what was going on. This is a sure recipe for escalation on the part of people who have to guess without being able to see who is approaching them and what they are doing."

From the same newspaper

Fiasco on the high seas by By Ari Shavit

"Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak and Moshe Ya'alon are supposed to know history. They are supposed to know there was no greater mistake than that of the British with regard to the illegal immigrant ship Exodus in the summer of 1947. The brutality employed by the British Mandate against a ferry loaded with Jewish refugees turned the regime into an object of revile.
It lost what is now called international legitimacy

The Turkish ship Mavi Marmara was no Exodus.

But a series of baseless decisions on the part of the prime minister and the ministers of defense and of strategic affairs turned the Marmara into a Palestinian Exodus. With a single foolish move, the Israeli cabinet cast the Muslim Brotherhood in the role of the victim and the Israel Navy as the villain and simultaneously opened European, Turkish, Arab, Palestinian and internal Israeli fronts.
In so doing, Israel is serving Hamas' interests better than Hamas itself has ever done.

Perhaps the most troubling question in the wake of this fiasco on the high sea is this: Who is navigating our ship of state, and toward what catastrophe are the captains of this ship of fools steering us? "


Given the reaction in Israel - not to mention internationally - it is not difficult to see how a government prepared to sanction the forging of British Australian and Irish passports to enable a state sponsored assassination had no compunction other than to put the best possible spin on this attack in international waters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:53 AM

Ed, I have come to the conclusion from the comments posted by some people that they don't actually bother to look up the actual links therefore a summary of some of the information may give an impression of the contents and the reference will enable them to check out the original

The extract that I chose from the advice by the Israeli Law firm specifically addressed your challenge that

"Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years)".

was "not a fact...but propaganda often repeated in the past."


Sometimes several short extracts from longer articles serve to illustrate a particular issue which the links alone would not do or a particular point is contained in a much longer article that may be irrelevant to the specific discussion .
I am by no means the only poster who uses this form and rarely, unlike some others, post whole newspaper articles.

Joe Offer is the arbitrator of 'style' - but I take your point completely about lengthy posts and have strived to contain posts to one screen where ever possible in the past
As people in this thread have pointed out however the issues are complex.

now back to topic.......

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:50 AM

"I find it easier to believe that some on board, willing to die as martyrs fighting Israel, flew at the soldiers and began clubbing them as can clearly be seen in video.

Abducted Israeli soldiers are invariably murdered and that would influence what happened next. "

On what basis do you find that easier to believe?

If it is that abducted soldiers invariably get murdered then you have no premiss, as in this case the abducted soldiers were not murdered, but instead, once they were disarmed, received treatment.

You also asked how we know that Israel is witholding video evidence.

We know because numerous reputable reporters on board have said that their video and photographic evidence was stolen.

The evidence on the one hand that there was a deliberate attempt to misinform, and on the other hand that evidence has been hidden, all adds up to an overwhelming likelihood that the Israeli Govt is covering up and that their version of events is unreliable.

Now apart from your feeling of what you find easy or hard to believe, what evidence have you that the passengers on board are not telling the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM

Those who deny anti-semitism may wish to read and reflect upon the following.


Irwin Cotler: The new anti-Semitism
Posted: February 17, 2009, 9:00 AM by Kelly McParland

Reflecting on the contemporary surge in anti-Semitism, Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel has stated, "I have not felt the way I feel now since 1945. I feel there are reasons for us to be concerned, even afraid ... Now is the time to mobilize the efforts of all of humanity." This sentiment is what brings together parliamentarians from around the world, for the first conference of the International Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism.

What we are witnessing today is a new sophisticated, virulent and even lethal anti-Semitism, reminiscent of the atmospherics of the 1930s, and without parallel since the end of the Second World War. This new anti-Jewishness found early juridical expression in the United Nations' "Zionism is Racism" resolution, but has gone beyond that. Traditional anti-Semitism is the discrimination against, denial of or assault upon the rights of Jews to live as equal members of whatever host society they inhabit. The new anti-Semitism involves discrimination against the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the family of nations -- the denial of, and assault upon, the Jewish people's right even to live -- with Israel as the "collective Jew among the nations."

Observing the complex intersections between the old and new anti-Semitism, Per Ahlmark, Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden, pithily remarked that the new anti-Semitism is marked by attacks on the "collective Jews -- the State of Israel," which then "start a chain reaction of assaults on individual Jews and Jewish institutions." In and around my home city of Montreal, I have witnessed chilling examples of these phenomena -- from the firebombing of my own high school, to the physical assault of Jews in the Laurentians, to the vociferous chants against Israel during recent Gaza hostilities.

Let me be clear: I have never argued that Israel should be immune from criticism. But the protesters at purported anti-Israel rallies who cry "Jews are our dogs" are of common ilk with traditional anti-Semites. The whole underscores Ahlmark's conclusion: "In the past, the most dangerous anti-Semites were those who wanted to make the world Judenrein, 'free of Jews.' Today, the most dangerous anti-Semites might be those who want to make the world Judenstaatrein, 'free of a Jewish state.'"

The indices of this new anti-Semitism are different from those of the old. Today it may be uncommon for a Jew to be refused service in a restaurant. But now Israel remains the standing object of genocidal threat from Iran and its terrorist proxies Hezbollah and Hamas; the Jewish state is singled out in the international arena while the major human rights violators of our time enjoy exculpatory immunity; the legitimacy of Israel is discriminatorily scrutinized to the extent that, for the purpose of country groupings at the United Nations, it is considered not even to "exist" in Asia; and less sophisticated voices spread rumors of Israelis injecting Palestinians with the AIDS virus. Jews may no longer be denied equal housing, but they are now being denied an equal homeland.

As New York Times commentator Thomas Friedman put it: "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanctions, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

It is this escalation of anti-Semitism that necessitates the establishment of an International Parliamentary Coalition to confront this oldest and most enduring of hatreds. Silence is not an option. The time has come to act. For as history has taught us only too well: While it may begin with Jews, it does not end with Jews. Anti-Semitism is the canary in the mine shaft of evil, and it threatens us all.

National Post

Irwin Cotler is the MP for Mount Royal and former minister of justice and attorney-general of Canada. He is a professor of law (on leave) from McGill University who has written extensively on matters of hate, racism and human rights. He is a co-founder of the International Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism with U. K. MP John Mann.

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/17/irwin-cotler-the-new-anti-semitism.aspx#ixzz0qLpR7qJH

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:32 AM

EmmaB, Why not just provide a link to the articles, and state your point, rather than cutting and pasting them. It just takes up space,makes it a difficult read and takes away from your point rather than adding to it. Long posts tend to get ignored, or the point is lost in the fog:)...IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM

""Jim Carroll, I'm not ashamed of myself for contrasting a view of the Israeli/Palestinian tragedy that considers only one side and doesn't value at all the right to exist of the other side.""

Roberto, you are seriously out of order.

Nobody here has ever (to my knowledge) denied the right of Israel to exist.

What we are opposed to is its expansion into areas set aside for Palestinians, its colonisation of the more fertile regions of these areas, its brutal suppression of any resistance to the above, and its apparent intention of starving the inhabitants of Gaza so that they will leave, or die.

I do not think that our objections are unreasonable, or anti-Semitic.

What do you think?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:14 AM

""It is wrong to hate Jews because of what the Israeli government is doing. But it's also hard to say "Uncle Bob is really a nice guy" when everyone can see he's kicking the dog.""

In case it has escaped your attention Mousethief, most of us here are trying our best to lay the blame where it belongs, on the Israeli government, not on the jewish population of Israel.

It is you who constantly states that the two are in fact one unit, and thereby lays blame on innocent Jews.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM

""Cramped thinking, anyone? Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. For the most part the two sets coincide.""

NO! IT IS NOT!

The religion is Judaism.

The ethnicity, tragically, is Semite. I say tragically because it is the same ethnicity as the people they they are oppressing, and trying to destroy.

There is a crying need to expose this nonsensical insistance that a religion is the same thing as ethnicity, and the same thing as nationality.

It simply is not true.

There are Jews of every nationality on this planet, and the vast majority of the world's Jews have never even visited Israel.

Two thousand years ago, Palestine was a country of Jews and Arabs living together in harmony, who were being oppressed by Rome. Those Jews and Arabs were all Palestinians.

Today we have both Jews and Arabs living (rather more uneasily) side by side in Israel. Those Jews and Arabs are Israelis.

Then and now, the country has both Jewish and Muslim, as well as some Christians, but it is not a Jewish, nor a muslim, nor yet a Christian state.

By its actions, it is apparently a fascist state, wishing to expand into ever larger areas currently outside its legal borders. It does not care about world opinion, and is inhumane in the extreme, in its dealings with weaker opponents.

Does this ring any bells for those who can remember 60+ years ago?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM

Emma, thanks again.
I did know that there were lots of nice people in the flotilla, and I am not questioning what happened on other vessels.

Ignoring claims and counter claims, I find it impossible to beieve that
1 Israelis thought it a good idea to make this the first and only antiblockade ship they have ever fired on.
2 Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready.

I find it easier to believe that some on board, willing to die as martyrs fighting Israel, flew at the soldiers and began clubbing them as can clearly be seen in video.

Abducted Israeli soldiers are invariably murdered and that would influence what happened next.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM

Real-Estate in Israel can be divided into 2 categories private owned, and State owned.

In the "State owned" category is included all real-estate that is owned by the state of Israel itself, and/or local-authorities/municipalities. and/or governmental institutions and/or governmental corporations


1. According to a basic (constitutional) Law called The Basic Law of the Lands of Israel, The State may not sell the ownership in it's lands to anyone, not even citizens of Israel and/or Israeli corporations.
Nevertheless, the state may and does rent (lease) it's real-estate, keeping the ownership always to itself.
The rent (lease) is usually for a period of 49 years that automatically renews itself for another 49 years, so in total – 98 years.
The long period of the rent makes the leaser almost an owner, yet the state, as formal owner, may intervene and/or veto requested actions in the real-estate (such as building on it, as any owner would).

A big part of the residential property in Israel is owned by the State and leased to the residents in the above way.

2. The State of Israel has rules restricting the possibility of foreign people and foreign corporations to lease State owned residential property.
In general, these limitations do not allow foreigners to acquire State owned property. There are several exceptions, one of which is that foreigners that are entitled to Israeli Citizenship according to the Israeli Law of Return would receive permission to buy (actually – as said above – rent) such State owned property.

The above Law gives this privilege to any Jewish person, man or woman, anywhere around the Globe.

Non-Jewish persons would have grave difficulties to own (actually – as said above – rent) state owned real-estate.

The above situation is both when renting the real-estate from the State itself ("first hand" property, that is new property/apartment) and when buying the rights from a former renter ("second hand" property/apartment)

3. In addition to the above, special problems may rise if the desired residential property is not in one of the cities but in a Kibbutz or other social-corporated village, usually integrating residential usage and agronomical usage of the lands.

Not only that these lands are owned by the State, therefore the above rules in art. 1-2 apply, but these social-corporations have inner rules restricting who may become a member in them. These inner rules usually do not allow foreigners and non-citizens to become their members.

- from Israeli Law - Laws regarding property ownership in Israel
information provided by Yosef Miller, adv.
Miller – Sieradzki
Advocates & Patent Attorneys
18 Mahanaim st, Haifa, Israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM

Roberto,
As I said, there has been no evidence of anti-Semiitism either on this thread, nor in general to the recent events - what you describe is the response to Israel's continued and expanding occupation of Palestinian land - it has no place in this present argument.
I cannot speak for Italy - I can only comment on what I see here.
In citing an anti-Semitic ballad as a counter to CarolC's argument you are grossly distorting what she and the rest of us have to say on this affair.
Your "my faith, right or wrong" argument is totally unacceptible and does nothing but damage to your case.
If opposition to Israeli policy is 'anti-Semitic' then equally, support for their actions against the Gazans must be considered anti-Arab, or opposition to Mugabi, or China, or Cuba, or Korea, or Iran - or anywhere you care to name, has to be 'racist'.

According to a letter in today's Irish Post, it seems that I was not alone in my impression that some of the nine killings were executions.

"Madam, - The Turkish autopsies on the activists seeking to bring toys, school books and medicine to the people of Gaza show all but one of the victims of the attack were shot in the back or in the back of the head.
As anyone with military training (I have five years), could tell you; if you are being "attacked by someone with a kitchen knife or a metal bar, you shoot them in the chest. You do not turn your back to them, you do not ask them to turn around so that you can shoot them in the back of the head. And key to this over all, you do not waste your ammunition putting two, three or four bullets into the back of the head of an already dead man. Unless of course you are sending a message.
The victims of the Israeli slaughter in the international waters of the Mediterranean were in fact executed at point-blank range. This was done, with the usual Israeli Defence Forces precision. The only difference is, this time they were not carrying Irish passports. And their message is clear: don't try to help the people of Gaza, our genocide there isn't complete yet.
I am no longer morally able to vilify Hamas. It has my support from this day forward. - Yours, etc,
MICHEAL HIGGINS,
Adare,
Co Limerick."

Todays paper also carries a detailed report of an Irish protester (of Turkish origin) being systematically beaten by Israeli forces.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:09 AM

How do you know there are withelf videos?

Keith, the passenger lists on the boats included a number of people of various nationalities - some of these had a more visable public face than others

Amongst them were -

Henning Mankell, 62, the Swedish author of the Inspector Wallander books, was released today and is flying home. He was on board with eight other Swedes. Mankell is married to the daughter of the film maker Ingmar Bergman.

"We are worried about our friends who are still in jail," he told the Expressen tabloid on a flight to Sweden.

The daily, which published a picture of Mankell standing in the aisle of the aircraft , reported that the author and Mehmet Kaplan, a Swedish MP, had been allowed to leave Israel.

The Swedish Foreign Ministry said four of the eleven Swedes who had been travelling with the flotilla when it was attacked early yesterday had been permitted to return home.

Anders Joerle, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, said that the others were not all being held at the same place and some had been imprisoned while some had simply been taken into custody.

The former US Ambassador

Edward Peck, 81, a former US Ambassador to Mauritania, was expected to arrive home today after the Free Palestine movement ship that he was on was seized by Israeli commandos.

Ann Peck, his wife, said that she received a brief e-mail from the Israeli Foreign Ministry yewsterday informing her that her husband was fine and on his way home. The e-mail said he was likely to arrive today, but that did not have a mobile phone with him and would call from an unnamed New York airport when he landed, she said.

"He gets himself into these messes, and the phone is going to ring," she joked.

Mrs Peck said that as of yesterday evening she had not spoken to US officials, nor had she been able to talk to her husband, since the raid. She had last spoke with him briefly by satellite phone just as the aid ships were leaving their rendezvous point.

"Knowing him I doubt there are regrets," she said. "I think he was really hopeful of it making a difference."

Mr Peck served as deputy director in President Reagan's White House Task Force on Terrorism.

The US Navy veteran

Joe Meadors, 63, of Texas, is a navy veteran. His wife Jean said yesterday evening that she believed he was safe, "but I'd like to hear that from him".

She said his exact status, whether under arrest, detention or otherwise, was unclear.

Mr Meadors served aboard the US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty that was attacked by Israeli forces in 1967, killing 34 crew members.

"He hasn't had much luck with the Israelis," his wife said.

The television producer

David Schermerhorn, retired television commercial producer of Washington state, was also on the flotilla as an activist with the Cyprus-based Free Gaza Movement, his daughter told The Seattle Times.

Kate Schermerhorn said US Embassy officials had told her that the 80-year-old was taken into custody by Israeli officials and was unharmed.

The Germans

Norman Paech, 72, a former member of parliament, who was on board, told reporters in Berlin: "Personally, I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used . . . There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives. The Israeli Government justifies the raid because they were attacked. This was absolutely not the case. This was not an act of self-defence."

Mr Paech said that he had taken photographic evidence, but Israeli authorities confiscated his camera. "We had not prepared in any way to fight. We didn't even consider it. No violence, no resistance — because we knew very well that we would have absolutely no chance against soldiers like this. This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission . . . This was a clear act of piracy," he said.

A German doctor, Matthias Jochheim, was also on the ship and said he had seen four dead bodies and expected the death toll to be 15.

Inge Hoeger and Annette Groth, two German MPs who had been on board the convoy, also said that they had seen no one with weapons.

The Irish

The group of Irish activists held in Beersheba includes Paul McGeough, 56, an Irish-born journalist and chief correspondent of the Sydney Morning Herald. He has reported from the Middle East for two decades.

Dublin-based Shane Dillon, 36, first mate on the Challenger 1, was being deported today. He has served as chief officer on Irish and British merchant ships. He is the brother of the musician Eoin Dillon from the traditional band Kila.

Dr Fintan Lane, 43, is a historian, political activist and spokesman for the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign. He is the author or editor of seven books on modern Irish history.

Fiachra O Luain, 28, is peace activist from Donegal who stood unsuccessfully as an independent candidate in the 2009 European elections. He was one of the first people to protest over the US military using Shannon Airport.


The retired German MP specifically mentions the consfication of his camera others have reported since their return the consfication of all personal items like mobile phones etc that could have recorded images

Do you wish to accuse all these disparate individuals of lying?

This week The Israeli Defense Force has issued a "clarification" admitting it manipulated audio of its raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

On Friday, the IDF released audio of what it said was an exchange between Israel Navy officers and the crew of the Mavi Marmara, the main vessel in the flotilla. In it, voices could be heard telling the Israeli soldiers to "go back to Auschwitz" and "we're helping Arabs go against the US -- don't forget 9/11, guys."

But flotilla passengers quickly began disputing the veracity of the audio clip.

On Saturday, the IDF's public blog issued a "correction" explaining that the tape had been edited "so as to make it easier for people to listen to the exchange."

The IDF's latest version of the audio is actually the third version the military organization has released. Its first audio version of the incident, a one-minute clip released the day of the raid, did not include any of the controversial comments -- no voices can be heard saying "Go back to Auschwitz" or "remember 9/11."

Critics of Israel have suggested the audio clip -- and the IDF's admission it was edited -- shows the Israeli military is involved in a propaganda campaign to discredit the flotilla as a humanitarian effort. And investigative journalist Max Blumenthal notes that the IDF audio has already made its way into US media as fact.

"Hours after the IDF's admission, major news outlets which reported on the doctored audio clip as though it was a shocking revelation and not a scandalous forgery have still not corrected themselves," Blumenthal writes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM

"Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years)".

If the site below is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, it indicates that the statement above is not a fact...but propaganda often repeated in the past.


http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:50 AM

Jim Carroll, I'm not ashamed of myself for contrasting a view of the Israeli/Palestinian tragedy that considers only one side and doesn't value at all the right to exist of the other side. I'm not ashamed of saying that the single-state solution is only a more presentable version of the project to destroy Israel. Also the single-state solution as promoted by Israel's extreme right wing is totally unacceptable. South African Apartheid is a misleading comparison. I'm not ashamed to criticize them who propose a fairy-tale vision of Hamas democracy, as CarolC does. I'm not ashamed of saying that you can't make a present of We Shall Overcome to radical islamism. I'm sorry that you think I would stop saying these things and retraet in shame, I won't meet your wishes.

You write: "There has been virtually no evidence of anti Semitism in the general response to recent events in Gaza". As I've written previously, the Italian group on the flotilla was no doubt formed by anti-semite. Please, go and visit their site, TerraSantaLibera, HolyLandFree, there is also a section in English.. The demonstrations in Italy, as usual when Israel is involved, have had several anti-semite traits. In Italy… Only in Italy? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM

"The reason there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening is because you are repeating the discredited narrative that is becoming more and more difficult to maintain by the people trying to hold on to the status quo".

CaroleC
Just because you post alot (the record on this tread speaks for itself), does mot mean you are posting anything new....that hasn't been said alot by your compadres on the web.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:12 AM

Regarding previous Israeli enforcements of the blockade, you may think they were heavy handed, but there has never been shooting or deaths apart from this one ship.
Explanation?
Israel certainly gained nothing and has been damaged by it.
Is it significant that families of some of the killed have stated that they wanted to be martyred?

You have said I am in no position to describe others as partisan.
I am suspicious of the statements of both sides and try to judge by their actions not their words.

How do you know that there are witheld videos?
Why should we not believe the evidence visible in the images that have appeared?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM

98



(and centenery post too)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:03 AM

Carol, you asked "Keith, I want to see the language that defines who can blockade whom. The language I've seen so far says that a country can prevent foreign countries from bringing anything to the shores of the country that is enforcing the blockade. I have not yet seen any other definitions of who can conduct blockades and who can be blockaded."

A blockade is a method of warfare between belligerent states.
Here are the relevant San Remo sections.

Blockade

93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.

96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.

97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.

98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:35 AM

"I suggest your song to be Child #155."
There has been NO anti Semitism on this thread.
There has been virtually no evidence of anti Semitism in the general response to recent events in Gaza; certainly not in Britain and Ireland.
The reaction has been entirely against the brutal nature with which the Israelis have carried out their expansionist policies - nothing more than that.
Previous requests have been met with silence - let's try again - if you have any evidence of anti-Semitism on this thread, please produce it. If you are unable to, it is you who is carrying "the torch down a ditch" - into the gutter in fact Roberto.
Crying "anti- Semitism" whenever Israeli actions are criticised is a deep and harmeful insult to the real victims of anti-Semitism - you really should be ashamed of yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM

It is because it was a song from the Civil Rights Movement that I can't accept it to be bent to a sectarian support to a part that doesn't recognize at all civil rights, not even the idea of them, as Hamas regime. You are carrying the torch down a ditch. I'm from Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:33 AM

In what country are you, Roberto?

That song is an icon of the US civil rights movement from our own apartheid days. Since the work on behalf of freedom and equal rights for Palestinians is every bit as much a civil rights movement as was the movement for which that song is an icon, it's actually a perfect song for this struggle. We're not a new movement. We are just people carrying the torch forward from the past to the present day manifestation of the same old struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:25 AM

A very bad idea to transform We Shall Overcome in a sectarian anthem, it had a universal breath. CarolC, being on a Folk and Traditional music site, I suggest your song to be Child #155.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

Awful. A political culture that lost the sense of the good things that produced decades ago and can't read the present.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:44 AM

Here's another musical note - a nice rendition of We Shall Overcome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMMHepfYVc

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:24 AM

Anti-semitism is an evil thing, and the rise in anti-Semitism cannot be anything but bad. Links to the Nazis like the Italian "don't buy from Jews" slogan, even if unintentional (and I have a hard time believing they are unintentional), are wronger than a wrong thing that's not right. And we at Mudcat know how wonderful the BNP isn't.

I really don't think the state of Israel is doing the worldwide cause of reducing anti-Semitism any favours, though, in its actions over the past couple of weeks. It is wrong to hate Jews because of what the Israeli government is doing. But it's also hard to say "Uncle Bob is really a nice guy" when everyone can see he's kicking the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:06 AM

More on the subject of the link in my last post. Those Sailors and Marines must have been terrorists trying to bring weapons to Gaza disguised as humanitarian aid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f98jxoUUrzg

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:38 PM

Here's more truth telling in the face of the propaganda...

http://freedocumentaries.org/teatro.php?filmID=104&lan=undefined&size=undefined

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:21 PM

Interesting perspective on Helen Thomas

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM

Since Judaism is a religion, it cannot possibly be a nationality.

Cramped thinking, anyone? Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. For the most part the two sets coincide.

Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years). Only Jews are registered and called up in the selective service. Jews from anywhere in the world are given a free immigration pass, but no other people group has that privilege (certainly not displaced Palestinians whose land was stolen from them in either 1948 or 1967!). What else needs to be the case for it to be a Jewish state? Zionism is not about creating a secular democracy where Jews and everybody else can settle at will. It's about creating a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:32 PM

I suggest that't true for all those here...hopefully it's not a surprise for anyone posting their opinions....otherwise they will likely be dissapointed

Actually, that's not true. The more people expose the truth of what is going on, the more people wake up and decide to do something about it. When I started speaking up about it, in 2002, the situation was very different than it is today. The number of people who understood the reality of what has been happening was vastly smaller than it is now. And without people exposing the truth in the face of the propaganda, and making sure that the propaganda is not the only narrative out there for people to see and hear, this would not be the case. For a very long time, the propaganda was the only narrative that was seen and heard by most people in the West. This has changed dramatically now that the internet makes it much easier to cut through the propaganda and the hasbara. Speaking up is what creates change. And as my friend said, "silence = death".

The reason there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening is because you are repeating the discredited narrative that is becoming more and more difficult to maintain by the people trying to hold on to the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:27 PM

Yet another viewpoint from Haaretz, French philosopher Bernard Henri-Lévy

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:03 PM

""Would this be the "political opponent" to whom you are referring DonT?""

It would indeed, and a thoroughly nasty piece of work he was.

That does not, however, justify violating the territorial boundaries of a sovereign nation, using cloned passports of real people (which could, in some countries get the genuine passport holders a bullet in the head), and committing cold blooded, premeditated, murder.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:48 PM

""This is a miasma of intolerance in which the only oasis of democracy, tolerance, and freedom is constantly being set up as a fall guy in order to eliminate it.""

If this weren't so bloody tragic, I'd be rolling on the floor, howling with laughter.

I assume that the above conglomeration of absolute garbage refers to the state of Israel?

An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description.

Ask the unfortunate residents of Gaza which of these statements seems, to them, to be closer to the truth.

Ask the survivors of the aid flotilla the same question.

Ask the relatives of the assassinated Hamas leader.

Ask anybody who has experience of the Israelis dedication to democracy (for Israelis only), tolerance (for Israelis only), and freedom (for Israelis only), whether they feel that it is Israel, or themselves, in greater danger of elimination.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

""Or do you mean that Iran will use it's nuclear weapons on Israel, and kill off both those pesky Jews and those annoying Palestinians? Or will they just give the WMD to Hezboallah, for them to use on all those non-existant missles that Iran sent them through Syria?

Either way, the Palestinian people will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations. I don't know why you think that a good thing- I don't.""

Iran will use it's nukes. WHAT bloody nukes? It doesn't have any, nor the means to deliver them if it should succeed in making one or two.

ISRAEL, on the other hand, has plenty, and the malevolent will to deploy them, and the Iranians know that. They're not the stupid ragheads you would wish them to be BB.

""The palestinians will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations.""

They won't get that far if Israel has its way. They'll be destroyed by Israel. Would that suit you better BB. Would that, in your estimation, be a better idea?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:26 PM

"That's nice, Ed. But nothing you say or do is going to change the outcome"

I suggest that't true for all those here...hopefully it's not a surprise for anyone posting their opinions....otherwise they will likely be dissapointed

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:18 PM

""Sorry, Netanyahu says it's a Jewish state. He demands that Hamas recognize it as a Jewish state. You're just flat-out wrong. STBU.""

Then Who Pray are all the Arab citizens of Israel who seem to be quite numerous.

Since Judaism is a religion, it cannot possibly be a nationality.

Use your eyes, then marshal the little common sense you seem to exhibit, and find a rational explanation for the fact that the world is full of Jews of every nationality, including Israeli.

The state of Israel might well claim to be a Jewish state, but it is patently not so.

YOU ARE MISTAKEN, and the main reason is that you choose to believe the words of one of the world's most corrupt and bigotted men, Netanyahu, who would cheerfully kll every Arab and Muslim in Palestine if he thought he could get away with it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM

Would this be the "political opponent" to whom you are referring DonT?

Mahmoud Abdel Rauf al-Mabhouh (Arabic: محمود عبد الرؤوف المبحوح; February 14, 1960[1] – January 19, 2010)[2] was a senior Hamas military commander and one of the founders of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. He was involved in several actions against Israel, including the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers.[3][4] In recent years, Mabhouh was also alleged to have played a key role in forging secret connections between the Hamas government in Gaza and the Al-Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guards in Iran.[5]

Al-Mabhouh was killed in the five-star Al Bustan Rotana Hotel in Dubai on January 19, 2010, having arrived in the country earlier that day from Syria using one of his five passports, under the fake name of Abdul Raaouf Mohamed.[6][7] The Dubai police have voiced their suspicions that he was murdered in his hotel room, with accounts of the cause of death ranging from suffocation to electrocution. Controversy has arisen over speculation that his death may have been an Israeli government-sanctioned assassination, and allegations that the assassins used fraudulently obtained European[8] and Australian [9] passports. At the time of his death Mabhouh was wanted by the Israeli, Egyptian and Jordanian governments.[10]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:04 PM

I also think that the best chance for all the people of Israel and Palestine is for a continued and sustained continuation of the recent surge in large scale, coordinated, non violent action.

This is precisely what will bring about the end of the present regime in Israel. Those who were close to the unfolding of events in South Africa during the struggle against apartheid say that the situation in Palestine/Israel is very close to where things were when the apartheid regime in South Africa was dismantled. And everything that the government of Israel does these days has the effect of speeding things up and awakening ever larger numbers of people to what is really going on. It's already snowballing. It took several years of civil society action to bring about the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa, but the end was very quick when it finally came about.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:55 PM

Sometimes folks prefer if those with views do the popcorn/armchair thing in dicussions...I either participate in a meaningful way, or I contribute elsewhere....where it amtters more to all, But, I am still here.

That's nice, Ed. But nothing you say or do is going to change the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

""And that law suggests it is made up by those with the guns to justify anything they do. Such as sinking the Rainbow Warrior, torpedoing South Korean ships, sabotaging ships on their way to Cyprus, whatever. If it has any validity, surely it was devised to deal with gun running and suchlike aggressive behaviour, not prefabs, coriander and butter.""

Indeed Penny, and let's not forget using cloned passports, to gain access to a political opponent, in order to assassinate him on somebody else's territory.

And before anybody tries to claim that was a Mossad action, not supported by, or known to, the Israeli government, I have this to say.

IF the Israeli government doesn't know what Mossad is doing in its name, then it's time the government was replaced by a competent one.

I, however, do not believe for one second that Mossad operated illegally, on foreign soil, without the full knowledge, and under-the-counter support of that government.

Israel is out of control, and arguably it is that state which should be blockaded by the whole western world, before they start a war which we may have to finish.

Don T.