BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

In deploring the construction of the Apartheid Wall and attempting to being to the attention of others the increasing humanitarian crisis in Gaza I too have been labelled anti-semitic by people in this forum.

Far worse, however, is the treatment of those Jewish people throughout the world and in Israel who have also sought to criticise the actions of the Israeli Government.

These courageous people have been labelled 'self-hating' Jews and traitors; eZion calls them
"Jewish Anti-Zionists - The Uncle Yankel Jews"

"....a particular feature of the new European anti-Semitism that has been less commented on. This is the crucial role played by some European Jews themselves, mostly intellectuals or academics, who have responded to the latest assault on the Jewish people by excusing it, justifying it, and in effect joining it.

For the most part, those answering it have been not the long-term, all-out, rabid haters of Israel of the Harold Pinter or (in American terms) Noam Chomsky stripe, who need no excuse and waste no pieties in reviling the Jewish state. "


Dr. Hajo Meyer, a holocaust survivor, spoke in Dublin earlier this year about the lesson he learned from the Nazi Holocaust, which was that "only those who are themselves dehumanised can attempt to dehumanise others, for example to inflict sufferings such as collective punishment. I personally never want to inflict suffering on anybody."
This 86 years old, peace loving humanitarian Jewish scholar human rights activist has been labelled an anti-Semite !

Yael Kahn has described the treatment Dr Meyer received at the hands of pro Israeli Zionists in when speaking in Portcullis House on 27 Jan 10, on Holocaust Memorial Day
He reported that he 'never witnessed such contempt and disrespect to a Holocaust survivor. It is inconceivable that such conduct would have not been labelled anti-Semitic by the same people who were doing the attacking, had Dr Meyer not been anti-Zionist.

It was a personal reminder of an attack on my father, who, like Dr Meyer, grew up in Nazi Germany. My father, Michael Kahn, escaped Nazi Germany in 1937. In 1988 my father joined us at a weekly protest at Dizengoff Circle [in Tel Aviv] against Israeli attacks on Palestinians. He was singled out by Zionist Israelis, who told him in Hebrew: "shame the Nazis didn't finish you off".'

Back in 2002 a peaceful protest by Jewish women was reported as -
"Women In Green will demonstrate at the Rose Garden in Jerusalem (opposite the office of the Prime Minister) during the time the Cabinet is in session on Sunday, against the building of a ghetto wall in the heartland of historic Israel.

The futile act is one that disgraces the dignity and nobility of the Jewish People, and makes a mockery of its basic national aspirations"

This all, as has been said, conflates anti-Zionism with anti-semitism,

defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly ,

Trivializes the meaning and very real existence of anti-semitism,

AND exploits anti-semitism in order to silence debate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/jun/05/gaza-flotilla-protesters-story?CMP=twt_gu

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

Well CaroleC, is it reasonable that the Israel government would consider either statement, a reason to trust Iran?...as the earlier post (where the current discussion started), contended. And, not I use the word reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM

"So, where has Israel stated they will "wipe the Palestinians off the map'?"
They don't have to, they are in the process of doing so - watch your television; see the tanks obliterating homes, watch thephospherus bombing, the daily oppression and humiliation......
I would take your point a little more seriously if I could find one word of condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians and all the other war crimes committed by the Israeli Army.
Similarly, the Jewish people would be in a far mor credible position if they turned out in their thousands to protest what is being done in the name of Judaism.
As has been stated on numerous occasions - this is not a defensive war on the part of Israel, it is a territorial war waged against the Palestinian people and the main victims are civilians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-04/henning-mankell-diary-of-the-gaza-flotilla-israel/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:55 AM

Ed, your post that appears just before my last post makes no sense at all.

I told you I would provide sources for what I said about Ahmadinejad. Had you been willing to exhibit some patience, you would have been rewarded. The material is in my last post.


On the subject of the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing, well, if you think words trump actions, then I think that you are living in a fantasy world.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

"So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

The Proof:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from)."

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025



"Ahmadinejad once again fails to call for the annihilation of Israel, despite what you heard on CNN
Posted on February 27, 2010 by Juan

I saw Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on CNN Friday afternoon. Oren said that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had called for the annihilation of Israel, and was therefore speaking of genocide.

It is dreary to see this constant drumbeat of dishonest propaganda. Whatever one thinks of Ahmadinejad or the Iranian regime, one should not misrepresent their statements, since that will lead to bad policy-making.

The Washington Post also wrote, "Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier, spoke of Israel's eventual "demise and annihilation". In fact, Ahmadinejad never mentioned Israel as a country at all, and spoke only about what he called the 'Zionist regime.' He favors an admittedly odd form of the 'one state solution' in which Palestinians and at least some Jews would all vote for the same government.

So this is what Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday at a press conference in Damascus:

"Iran, Syria, the Palestinian Resistance and Lebanon are ready to meet any conditions, and we hope that the enemies of the nations of the region will change their course and instead walk beside regional states in cooperation. Insofar as the Zionist regime threatens Lebanon and Syria and prominent personalities of these two countries every day, it must accept its end and grant in their entirety the rights of the Palestinian nation."

That is, Ahmadinejad began by offering an olive branch to any former enemies that wanted to make peace. But he characterized the 'Zionist regime,' i.e. the Israeli government with its current ideology, as intrinsically belligerent, and insisted that this 'regime' must 'accept its own end' and grant Palestinians their full rights (presumably, citizenship and property rights, which they now lack)."

http://www.juancole.com/2010/02/ahmadinejad-once-again-fails-to-call.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:37 AM

Israel has been in the process of wiping the Palestinians from the map since before it even declared itself a state. It is still doing this in a slow motion ethnic cleansing and genocide. They don't need to state their intention to do it, they just do it, and have been for decades. We don't need to see a declaration of intent from them to know that this is what they are doing. We only need to see what they have been doing and continue to do"

CarolC

Well, I suspect this is your, and many other opinions, which is OK.
However, we were discussing a quote that was reported to be made, that is suggested gives grounds for concern in Israel. (this was in reference to another post, where someone stated Israel has reason to duistrust the Palistinians ((Hamas is the leader) and Iran. Then you jump to a personal opinion. In doing so, it could easily lead to a conclusion that domeone representing the Israel leadership has said this, which I suspect could be seen as a tactic that you frown on CNN for doing.

There are few who suggest that Hamas and the Palistinians have a good reason to distrust the Isrel government. The suggestion was that Israel (the government) also has a good reason to distrust Palistian officials, and Iran (which is a major supporter of Hamas, (the majority factor in the elected government, I believe).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

On the subject of saying that Israel gives Jews a bad name, I also disagree with statements like this. I think that they arise from ignorance most of the time, and sometimes from anti-Semitism. But I think the ignorance can be understood, to some extent, because Israel is so often conflated with Judaism by Israel itself, and by many diaspora Jews.

People who criticize Israel are almost always called anti-Semitic by many Jews. This is a conflation of Israel and Jews generally. And when this happens, it is rare for Jews to come to the defense of the person who has been attacked in this way. So while I totally disagree with the premise that Israel makes Jews look bad, I understand how such ignorance can take place.

I have been attacked many, many times here in the Mudcat by Jews as being anti-Semitic because of my criticism of the government of Israel. I don't recall ever seeing any Jews come to my defense to say that Israel and "the Jews" should not be conflated in this way. Perhaps if more Jews were to do this, fewer people who aren't Jewish would conflate Israel with Jews generally.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM

Ed, Israel has been in the process of wiping the Palestinians from the map since before it even declared itself a state. It is still doing this in a slow motion ethnic cleansing and genocide. They don't need to state their intention to do it, they just do it, and have been for decades. We don't need to see a declaration of intent from them to know that this is what they are doing. We only need to see what they have been doing and continue to do.


I have already provided more than ample documentation on the subject of the Ahmadinejad quote. But I will go ahead and round it up again just for you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

"Israel has to bear its share of the blame for the image it projects of Judaism."

Apart from the appalling humanitarian crisis brought about by the blockade of Gaza .....

Settlements on occupied territory are illegal under international law and even Israeli military lawyers decreed that settlements are illegal when the government first started to allow construction after the 1967 war.

Today, half a million Israelis - 10% of the Jewish population - live in illegal settlements.

In the past, U.S. administration would utter words about stopping settlements but then never follow with pressure. Israelis took this as a green light and continued with construction.

Obama initially attempted to break that tide by ruling out any new construction even for the Israeli euphemism of "natural growth".
However, Defense Minister Ehud Barak in June 2009 nevertheless responded by authorizong the building of 300 new homes in the West Bank, defying U.S. calls for a halt to settlement growth.

The new construction is located around 13 kilometers east of the Green Line, on the "Palestinian" side of the separation barrier. According to the Sasson Report, this outpost was built without government approval and without a master plan and damaged private Palestinian property.

British citizens - following real estate fairs in recent years in London and Manchester that have advertised properties for sale in Israeli settlements such as Maale Adumim and Har Homa (both in the West Bank) - were to be formally advised by the government not to buy property in settlements in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories
The UK government has long insisted that settlements beyond the pre-1967 war "green line" border, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights — both of which have been annexed by Israel — are illegal.

Settler violence has frequently caused concern.

The Israeli government depicts violent settlers as aberrant citizens engaged in rogue behaviour. But a report released by the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) says these ultranationalists have been encouraged by the state to take over Palestinian land and natural resources.

Proponents of the settlements in the occupied terrorties argue that the settlements are actually supporting the US

"Israel is fully entitled to expand existing settlements or build new ones in the disputed territories.
Netanyahu is to be commended for resisting intense international pressure in order to engage in the former and to reserve the right to undertake the latter after final status negotiations have been completed.
By so doing, he is engaging in the well-established Israeli practice of strengthening its physical position in strategic regions, increasing Israel's self-defence capability and undergirding US interests in the region by enhancing the security of America's most reliable ally in the region."

to the historical / religious 'right' to the land

"The so-called West Bank, according to the Bible and tradition, represents the cradle of Jewish civilization, and some Jews, driven by faith and history, wanted to reassert that link"
"The Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People as the Bible and the God of Israel has indicated......The solution to terror is thus not erecting a fence but completely destroying the Palestinazi Authority; expelling all supporters of terror and reinstalling Jewish-Israeli control and sovereignty over all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza."

The Israeli leadership continues to defy countless UN resolutions pertaining to its policies

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM

http://www.freegaza.org/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:15 AM

The rest of my last sentence:

Seems like a good reason to be concerned, if you could be on the receiving end?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM

"Hamas has indicated that they are willing to accept Israel within its '67 borders. They are not willing to revise their charter until they see some indication that Israel will discontinue its long standing program of wiping the Palestinians off the map"

So, where has Israel stated they will "wipe the Palestinians off the map'? (Could some folks be doing what they claim CNN has done)?

This alonbe lies a logical divide and what seems to be a good basis of distrust on both sides.

The CNN story I linked to was widely reported in the media world-wide, and commented on by many national governments, with the same interpretation. It seems quite clear (and,easily interpreted as a threat< if you are on the receiving lines) and if it was inaccurate, where is the later Iran leadership clearification? Sorry, CarolC, I suspect Iran speaks for itself, so sources, rather than outside interpretations, are important. Governments rarely make statements that can be interpreted as treats by another nation, unless they mean it as such.

Seems like a good reason to be concerned, if you

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM

Ed, Hamas has indicated that they are willing to accept Israel within its '67 borders. They are not willing to revise their charter until they see some indication that Israel will discontinue its long standing program of wiping the Palestinians off the map.

And that CNN article is a pack of lies (no surprise there). What Ahmadinejad quoted from Khomeini was a prediction that eventually, the zionist regime in Jerusalem will be wiped from the pages of time in the same way that the Soviet Union was. He neither mentioned wiping Israel from the map, nor called for anything whatever to be done to Israel. And Komeini is right about that. The zionist regime is in the process of self-destructing right now. It doesn't have very much time left.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

"I'd say those who do judge as such, would fall under the category of ignorant."
Yes, but understandably so, and (quite apart for its own inhuman activities) Israel has to bear its share of the blame for the image it projects of Judaism.
"This is the unfortunate situation that Israel finds itself in."
No it isn't - it is in the position of having illegally occupied its neighbour's house (using your own analogy) and facing the consequences of having done so. The women and children non-combatants killed and maimed by Israeli weapons should not be part of this, yet they have been deliberately targeted by the occupiers - I think the euphamism created elsewhere is 'collateral damage'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

As to Iran's leader Is CNN wrong, or has this position changed?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:40 AM

Questions for consideration (though I suspect this has been debated many times before in Mudcat).

Is it logical for the government in Israel to take the Hamas Charter (elected government of Gaza, and leadership of the Palistians ), and public statements of the leader of Iran seriously? Has the Hamas charter officially changed, since it was established?

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

Hamas has said that they will accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders. And Iran has never said or done anything that would even remotely indicate a desire to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM

"Neither Iran nor the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth"
How is the accuracy of this statement determined?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM

Neither Iran nor the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, John. What all of them want is for the Palestinians to have all of the same rights as everyone else. And they want the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to stop.

Remember, it was the Jewish paramilitaries in the months just prior to Israel declaring itself a state, who actually did drive the Palestinians into the sea.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

If your neighbour threatened to kill you and wipe you off the face iof this earth, would you be happy to let him fill his house with weapons and explosives?
This is the unfortunate situation that Israel finds itself in.
For anybody from the USA where the right to bear arms is sacrosanct to criticise a countyry for protecting itself from overt threats, would seem to me to be hypocrisy of the highest order.
I'm sure that, like me, the majority of Israelis want peace with Palestine, but until Hamas and their allies in Iran and other Israel hating countries cease their attempts to obliterate Israel, what else can they do?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

Thank you Mr. Happy, thank you Lox. Right on.


There has been, and currently still is to much hate and anger in this world.

The only hope we have is through understanding, tolerance, humanity and love for our fellow human beings. Only then can these solutions be found.

peace
biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

The events of 31st May were carried out by The Israeli Defence force on behalf of the Israeli National Government.

The Israeli National Government is made up of those politicians who won the most votes.

It does not represent the views of All Israelis.

It certainly does not represent the views of all Jews.


Tamarack Jack.

It is imortant to be clear about what you boycott.

Boycotting Israeli goods is an legitimate way of inflicting personal sanctions on the Israeli state in protest of its administrations actions.

A blanket boycott of Jewish businesses is not a way of protesting the actions of the Israeli state.

A blanket Boycott of Jewish businesses in Canada or anywhere else outside Israel clearly constitutes Anti-semitism.

The events of May 31st are not an excuse to scapegoat Jews.

I would like to read a clarification from you that you mean to Boycott Israeli goods and not Jewish goods.

If you advocate boycotting all Jewish produce, or scapegoating all Jews in any other way, you can count on full on opposition from me on this thread.

I await your clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM

Furthermore, in all honesty, do the mass of any country or nation always agree/ condone / actively support the mandate of their govts all the time, particularly, as in this case, foreign policy.

We all recall the damage the last UK govt did themselves following their acquiescence in following the Bush regime's illegal invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM

'LIKE I SAID   ( ISRAEL )gives jews a bad name..What is this about a jewish State??Does this mean all within is jewish like the good ol boys club passing the talking stick around or lets spin the bottle for our next bottom feeder leader??
Now let me see,everything i eat in CANADA comes form Jewish owned shopping centers,everything i ware comes from jewish owned factories very thing i here and see comes from jewish controlled TV and radio stations. I just got married with a diamond ring from jewish diamond mining company that has devastated the pristine forests of North West Territories ?and how do CANADIANS feel you ask?Is this collective monopoly of goods and services laws ie.(gun control) and law inforcers,and imigration over seen by CANADIANS ? I think not.
The big excuse is to call my facts anti semetic? I think not. The very fact that it is called a jewish state shows how anti EVERYTHING this state is.who calls the kettle black .Anyone for a bagle? Only in CANADA i say?? '

Tamarack jack's post here is a perfect example of the muddle-headedness of some contributors [& also of many of un/ misinformed folk all over]



********


Please, please don't confuse all Jews in other countries [also in Israel] of being perfectly in tune & in favour of their [Israel's] govts policies.

There's clear evidence from many parts of the globe including inside Israel itself of the sheer outrage felt by most fair-minded people.

*********

Confusing the issue this way is similar to labelling all Muslims as terrorists - which they definitely are not, & other national stereotypes based on inter cultural ignorance

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:46 AM

As I said ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name.

I should rephrase ... ignorant and/or antisemitic.

Jim Carroll ... you are correct .. many people are judged from the political actions of the country of their origin ... I'd say those who do judge as such, would fall under the category of ignorant.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:32 AM

"no 'Israel' doesn't give Jews a bad name ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name"
Unfortunately this isn't true. Sure, there are plenty of anti-Semites around who will use Israel's viciousness to fuel and promote their own bigotry, but hiding behind the 'anti- Semitism' argument to defend that viciousness is despicable. It demeans all the Jews in history who have suffered through real anti-Semitism, most recently those who suffered and died at hands of the Nazis in the ghettos and concentration camps of Europe.
People see Israel as the Jewish State and are bound to equate how they behave there as representative of Judaism, just as here in Ireland, Travellers are judged by the behaviour of the bad ones because that is the public face of itineracy; and for that matter, how the Irish themselves were judged during the recent 'Troubles'.
Acts of State terrorism, piracy, assasination, random executions, the murder of innocent women and children, illegal seizure of territory, torture, the use of chemical weapons on civilians, the deliberate act of destroying peoples' homes, the incarceration of opponents as political prisoners, the persistant abuse of human rights and what verges on ethnic cleansing - criticism of such acts have nothing whatever to do with anti-Semitism; they are an assessment of a repressive regime out of control.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM

LIKE I SAID   ( ISRAEL )gives jews a bad name..What is this about a jewish State??Does this mean all within is jewish like the good ol boys club passing the talking stick around or lets spin the bottle for our next bottom feeder leader??
Now let me see,everything i eat in CANADA comes form Jewish owned shopping centers,everything i ware comes from jewish owned factories very thing i here and see comes from jewish controlled TV and radio stations. I just got married with a diamond ring from jewish diamond mining company that has devastated the pristine forests of North West Territories ?and how do CANADIANS feel you ask?Is this collective monopoly of goods and services laws ie.(gun control) and law inforcers,and imigration over seen by CANADIANS ? I think not.
The big excuse is to call my facts anti semetic? I think not. The very fact that it is called a jewish state shows how anti EVERYTHING this state is.who calls the kettle black .Anyone for a bagle? Only in CANADA i say??

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:52 AM

"But Mr Ovenden told the Morning Star: 'This was a peaceful humanitarian mission in international waters. The youngest person on board was not yet one, the oldest was 88 years old.

'We had no weapons on board. The Israelis are displaying knives taken from the kitchen. People did defend themselves with whatever was at hand.

'The attack started with percussion grenades and we feared they would use tear gas. The Israeli commandos attacked from all sides and began shooting almost immediately, initially with so-called rubber bullets but certainly within two or three minutes we heard the unmistakable sound of live rounds.

'A colleague from Viva Palestina, Nicci Enchmarch, was next to a Turkish man who was holding a camera. He was shot through the middle of the forehead. The exit wound blew away the back of his skull and she cradled him in her arms as he died.'

At least four of those killed were shot through the head, he said.

Mr Ovenden praised the Turkish crew of the vessel as "truly heroic in their attempts to prevent further loss of life," saying they had taken two injured Israeli soldiers inside the ship to prevent them being hurt further in the panic and chaos.

Appeals to the Israeli forces telling them their soldiers were safe and that there were wounded people who needed assistance were ignored, he said."


http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/91138

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM

I'm jealous, Bill.


On another note, I'm totally gobsmacked to see something like this in USA Today. I never, never would have expected it...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-06-04-bisharat04_ST_N.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM

I haven't seen Tevas for a few years up here.

Mexican huaraches are incredible ..... the rawhide leather and the old tire treads just don't wear out ... comfortable as hell also!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:35 AM

Sorry. I didn't mean you specifically. I was wondering if they sold them up where you are. Mexican huaraches are great.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:22 AM

Do I have Teva sandals ... nope. I wear Mexican handmade huaraches.

Teva must be part of Naots.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 AM

BTW .... "I tell my Jewish friends that Israeli gives Jews a bad name"

no 'Israeli' doesn't give Jews a bad name ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name ... the actions of concerns that are the subject of this thread are of the Israeli government ... NOT JEWS.

Unfortunately antisemitics will use the actions of the Israeli government to espouse and promote the hatred of Jews not only in Israel, but worldwide.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:11 AM

Do you have Teva sandals there, Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM

Boycott Israeli goods

Cool ... the only consumer goods imported to Canada that I'm aware of are Naot shoes and some brand of matzo ... not in need on any new shoes and passover isn't until next spring ... as if anyone reading this thread buys Naot shoes, and/or that particular brand of matzo or any other made in Israel product.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM

This is "democracy" as it is experienced by Arabs in Israel. This is MK Haneen Zoabi, a Palestinian Israeli, who was aboard the Freedom Flotilla. She was the one who was trying to get help for the wounded by calling for help for them in Hebrew. Her calls for help were ignored by the Israelis, and several people bled to death because of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRf0aB3BNEY

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:55 PM

Here's the video that proves the Israelis opened fire first, in a YouTube viewer (which makes it easier to find than the one that was embedded in the large page that I provided before). In it we can see the correspondent saying that there are wounded people on the ship before any of the Israeli terrorists had even left the helicopter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g

And here's some more information about the killed people (that we know about, there are several people who are still missing). They left behind 28 fatherless children...

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129187§ionid=351020202

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:35 PM

Now Noam Chomsky can be turned back at Niagara.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM

I also urge the jews to take a stand ..I will NOT knowingly buy any product or service from Israel ..Get this Our Canadian Gov`t just recently asked Israel to monitor our airports security??
What the F--k is that about?
No more ( MK ) ( TK ) or ( K )food for me, i`ll bless my own
THANK YOU!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

Well,well,well.Its a little like blah, blah,blah ??Canadas position on this matter of high sea piracy is water off a ducks arse..
The CANADIAN PEOPLE not the rigged media polls are dead against this or any other bulling on the planet..Our democraticly selected bottom feeders have no spine or spunk to dig a good bucket a clams.   
Joe CANADA beer buddy don`t stand a rats ass in addressing this terrible atrocity..Last night on TV Ontario there was a debate by 5 members of a panel regarding this issue they were all Jews??
What am i or Joe CANADA to make out a dis. Am i to listen to this waste of tax dollar ?Are we so blind to come up with some rational conclusion ? or more questions?I am JOE CANADA and i and all of the people i know or ever new which is quite a few do not support this utter garbage that the media throws at us..I tell my Jewish friends that Israeli gives Jews a bad name...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

Another political perspective:
http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2010/06/04/110460.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM

"That's because the wall was put up by their own government. So who are they going to kill, themselves?"

Yes - well their own subjects anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:58 PM

The parallels between apartheid South Africa and Israel are striking - as is the evidence for co-operation between the two regimes, including nuclear weaponry co-operation - Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons (From The Guardian a few days ago.)

The case seems clear for an economic, cultural and sporting boycott similar to that which helped to change things for the better in South Africa, for all its people.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM

"this is, and always has been a totally offensive action by the Israelis in order to expand its borders."

What Jim says is backed up totally in an article in today's Huffington Post by

Dr. Geoffrey Wawro , the General Olinto Mark Barsanti Professor of Military History and Director of the Military History Center at the University of North Texas. He is the author of Quicksand: America's Pursuit of Power in the Middle East

He heads his article "A Head for an Eye' - the limits of 'escalation dominance'

Israel has long defended itself through a "doctrine of retaliatory action," which President Eisenhower angrily characterized in 1955 -- after savage Israeli reprisal raids into Gaza and Jordan -- as "more like a head for an eye than an eye for an eye."

The doctrine has not worked since Israel's 2006 invasion of Lebanon, which, in common with Gaza today, was launched to punish missile attacks (from Hezbollah country) and force the release of two Israeli soldiers seized by Lebanese guerrillas and carried back across the border.

Today, Israel is blockading and intermittently pummeling Gaza (about 1,200 Palestinians were killed in the January 2009 "Gaza War") to secure the release of Sergeant Gilad Shalit, who was abducted in 2006, and to stop the sputter of missile attacks from Hamas country.

But, as events in Gaza now demonstrate, escalation dominance no longer works, and Netanyahu is exposed as having no new usable doctrine to replace it.

The first cracks appeared in the Lebanon War of 2006. When Hezbollah paramilitaries fired Katyusha rockets into northern Israel and seized two Israeli sergeants from a Humvee patrolling the border, Israel reflexively demanded "a head for an eye."
"If the soldiers are not released," the IDF chief of staff growled, "we will turn Lebanon's clock back twenty years."

He wasn't kidding. Israeli airstrikes took out bridges, roads, airports, harbors, water and sewage treatment plants, power grids, schools, hospitals, shops and homes. At least 1,000 Lebanese civilians were killed in the campaign, several hundred Hezbollah fighters, and 121 Israeli troops and 43 Israeli civilians. The attempt at escalation dominance -- ratcheting the rocket attacks and kidnappings into a knock-out blow against Hezbollah -- failed. The two kidnapped soldiers were returned -- in a prisoner exchange -- but they were dead. Hezbollah lived on, and has been rearmed.

Israel was condemned for its disproportionate use of force everywhere but the Bush White House.

Operation Cast Lead in Gaza in December 2008-January 2009 repeated the methods of Lebanon. More than a thousand Palestinians were killed -- including hundreds of civilians -- and factories, workshops, mosques, homes and water treatment plants were destroyed.

When Israel escalates and takes a "head for an eye," it no longer enjoys the respect or connivance of the international community."

full article

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:15 PM

"You know one can't help thinking that if Hamas pledged to do all it could to stop rockets being sent into Israel then there would be no need for the measures Israel is taking to ensure that."
Dream on - the occupation and the atrocities happened a long time before the rocket attacks - this is, and always has been a totally offensive action by the Israelis in order to expand its borders.
Try asking them if the rocket attacks stopped would they return the occupied territory to its rightful owners.
Israel is a fanatic terrorist nation; the fact that they are a nuclear fanatical terrorist nation gives one pause for thought - don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM

The friend in Gaza whose words I quoted previously in this thread just said this...


"i am so proud to be Palestinian !! so proud to be from Gaza !! so proud of all this people who are standing on our side and beliving in our rights !!
love you all ♥ ♥ !! and i want so badly , to see you all here in Gaza !!"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM

Hamas did pledge to to that, bobad. And they are doing everything they can to stop the rockets. But Israel has almost completely destroyed the Gazan infrastructure, and Israel killed a lot of their law enforcement people, so they have a lot working against them, and not much working in their favor.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

You know one can't help thinking that if Hamas pledged to do all it could to stop rockets being sent into Israel then there would be no need for the measures Israel is taking to ensure that. Just two days ago four rockets were launched into southern Israel - and on it goes.