BS: UFOs do not exist!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:37 PM

over & over & over..."The reason we don't see proof of many things is that there is this BIG conspiracy to a)hide evidence of aliens & new power sources, b)suppress science that could TELL us the truth, and c) create secret societies that will continue the conspiracy.

It MUST be true that this is happening because we don't see it! See? The fact that we don't HAVE unlimited, non-polluting power PROVES that it is being suppressed! There must BE a secret conspiracy, because I can't identify any members! UFOs must be aliens who are more advanced than us, or we'd catch them! In fact, the more we don't know and can't prove, the more confident we can be that it is being withheld.

Do I exaggerate the attitude? Maybe a little,... but the 100mpg carburetor was 'being hidden' when I was in high school. Fusion power is being suppressed by the oil companies until the last drop is pumped from Iraq. The Tri-Lateral Commission has been manipulating global politics for years.

Lordy! "The world ain't like it should be, so someone must be keeping all the good stuff from me!"

Who, me? Cynical?...nawwwwwww

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:53 PM

You've hit the crux of the matter, Donuel. Physical evidence of a UFO is damned hard to come by unless an alien vehicle crashes in one's own backyard...or you find their staging bases. In the former case, supposing such a crash happened, the civil and military authorities would have your backyard cordoned off pretty damned fast and they would take away all the evidence toot sweet, and tell you some kind of story to shut you up. And the local papers would talk about it for a day or two and then never speak of it again.

In the case of the bases...they are undoubtedly beyond the present reach of our military, and our military is driving horses and buggies and trying to catch Ford Mustangs, comparatively speaking...which is why they don't tell us much about it. They figure they wouldn't look so mighty and omnipotent anymore, and it would invalidate much of our normal political agenda on this planet, which is all about making money and controlling strategic resources.

So any evidence they have (and they have plenty) is kept secret from the public. There's also this quaint notion held by people in high places that the public would "panic" if told. Ha. Some people would panic, but most people would not, they'd be fascinated. The general public is ready for contact, the corrupt leaders of our society are not. They fear the loss of their image and their power. How many elected politicians know about this, I'm not at all sure...maybe only a few, maybe quite a few. But most politicians are just errand boys for the real power brokers who stand behind them unseen.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM

Well, in answer to the thread statement: I believe in the one I saw. How's that?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:34 PM

I have never gained any tangible evidence from any of the airplanes I have seen pass over head. And thank goodness I have never seen one crash in front of me. Not unless I went to the airport would I find evidence. Likewise there must be bases of some kind to support unusual craft.
Our solar sattilite has taken some fantastic pictures of bizarre looking symetrical looking craft. Perhaps their airport is one of these or on Mars or the dark side of the moon. Undersea earth bases seem remote to me. Still if you want proof you will have to go to their source.

Meanwhile on TV right now Bush just had an extreme senior moment and couldn't say anything for several minutes. First he condemned the questioner for not having been submitted in writing beforehand then he remained tongue tied for 3 minutes. He was lost and embarrassed and apologetic but still could not answer the simple question if his response of war was the best strategy that could be undertaken.
Now he is preaching the almighty and regained his confidnce in sermonesque fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:51 PM

For instance, just read this article:

Going Tactical

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:42 PM

For a great deal of further info and opinion, go here:

Disclosure Project

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:33 PM

some of those are really interesting...I'm ready for one to sit down and be photographed on the ground from 9 different angles...preferably with ME standing next to it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:03 PM

Photos of UFOs

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:57 PM

well, I'm as normal and trustworthy as the next fellow, LH! I'd LOVE for one of them danged things to buzz me...or better yet, land and let me ask some pointed questions! One time, when I was about 15, I saw a little flash of light seem to zoom by in broad daylight, but it was so fleeting that even then I couldn't be sure it wasn't just a reflection.

Since then, they have carefully avoided coming near me...(guess they knew I'd be a hard case...inside my bell jar & all...)

If they ARE " ...intelligently piloted or controlled vehicles, not of human Earthly origin", it makes me madder, as I was a big sci-fi fan! I WANT them to be real...I'd VOLUNTEER to be abducted! I'd love to have a 'crop circle' in the grass in my front yard.

It seems like they ar so clever, they almost never leave any real evidence, and if they do, the govt. covers it up and hides it. Why, it's enough to make a fellow think 'ol Hiram IS at the bottom of it all!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM

Du bist ein sehr glucklicher Mann in any case, LH. Transcendently so!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM

It would make absolutely no difference if they did, Bill. Thousands and thousands of excellent photos have been taken of purported UFO's (and some were hoaxes, a great many were not). I saw some of those photos in an issue of Life Magazine (cover story was on recent notable UFO incidents) in the early 70's. Life treated the matter seriously, and treated the photos as the real thing (unexplained flying objects) and not as hoaxes. One of the most interesting photos was over a harbour city in Australia, I think it was Sydney.

You see, Bill, if you live in a mental bell jar and you don't know about these things, then you can easily discount them in a casual sort of way on the rare occasions when someone brings them up.

If you don't live in such a mental bell jar, and you actually bother seriously investigating what's already out there, only the most rank prejudices could cause you to dismiss the evidence out of hand.

I've personally known a great many people (and trustworthy, normal people, including professional pilots) who have seen what could only have been alien vehicles or some other very odd natural phenomenon that we are not familiar with and have no name for. I've personally seen such phenomena. The best guess is: they are intelligently piloted or controlled vehicles, not of human Earthly origin. Another possibility is that they are secret government craft of Earthly origin, but given their capabilities of maneuver that seems much less likely. Besides, the government would not keep exposing such things to public view, they would test them in restricted areas.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:21 PM

don't suppose one of those hundreds of people had a camera with them....?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Jilly
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:28 PM

I believe that ufo's do exist!I have seen one hanging in the sky,everyone said it was a weather baloon but how could it hang there for three hours in broad daylight.
Hundreds of people were watching it.The report in the papers said it could be seen from miles away.A large plane flew under it. The ufo was so large that the plane looked like a toy, very tiny.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM

It definitely appears to me that I have offended your sense of proper English, Wolfgang! :-) Most definitely. May I emphasize that! Extremely, overwhelmingly most definitely, nicht war?

Wenn die meine schlechteste Sünde ist, bin ich ein sehr glücklicher Mann.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM

The small softball sized balls of nebulus light that I watched pass right through two brick walls were very exciting, I actually touched one.

a clever illustrated poem of the esperience...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/balloflight1.jpg



The large resonant electric trobbing of a trianular craft created such an ominous feeling in our bones that my wife and I were struck motionless with a feeling of danger that prevented any attempt to chase after it. It was'nt the size but a sonorous terror that was unlike any other experience. I normally would run out into a horrendous thunderstorm but this was different. There was no static electricity that made hairs stand on end but a feeling of danger none the less.

A man by the name of Michalak did once approach a landed craft and was surprised by small port holes emmitting deep burns in his abdomen.
The wounds persisted for the rest of his life and is supported by numerous hospital photographs.

Intent may be benign but technology has its dangers if its a helicopter rotor or unknown device. These unknown devices are so energetic that they tend to ionize the air around them. The air turns silvery and reflective like a mirage. This is why so many sightings are so fleeting.

One of the only non fiction books of this phenomena is by Paul Hill.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:54 PM

but wolfgang - though the likely suspects which get "identified" as UFO's (isn't that self-contridictory?) tend not to be objects; or if objects tend not to be flying - they are PERCIEVED as objects that are in flight - thus "Unidentified Flying Object". Whether or not there actually is an object or if that object is flying is irrelevant to that perception though certainly not irrelavent to the question of "visitors".

but that there are unidentified flying objects is fact. That even some of the unidentified flying objects are visiting spacecraft or evidence of non-terrestrial intelligent life is conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:30 PM

By definition UFOs do exist .They are flying objects that have not been identified.

Several here have used this definition but I disagree. 'UFO', from the very start, has been a misnomer, though this word will not go away. Several explanations for what can give rise to a perception described or recollected as 'UFO' make use neither of objects nor of flying things.

Venus is the number one suspect (e.g., J. Carter's 'UFO'), an object for sure, but 'flying'??
The play of disco lights on clouds is another suspect, neither objects nor flying.
Entoptic phenomena (very remote suspect) are neither objects nor flying and not even 'out there' in the sense of a disco light.
Real objects can be perceived as flying though they are not (autokinetic movement, which can happen if you see a tiny object in front of a big background without stable frame of reference close by, like the sky is; what moves there are your eyes).

That's in short why I consider the use of the above definition as wrong for it excludes some possible explanations.

There are many more possible explanation, all well know. One of many is that there are actually alien crafts visiting us, and I find it very amusing that some people consider others lacking the open mind when all they themselves entertain is one particular of many possible explanations.

LH, the juxtaposition of the two words definitely appeared is priceless.

Whats the difference between those that believe in God and those that believe in UFO's? (dianavan).

That's an interesting question. On an empirical level, these two groups have not much in common. If there is any correlation at all, it is negative; that is (traditional) religious people are even less likely to believe in UFOs than non-religious. (Trad.) Religious based beliefs are negatively related to degree of education, non-religious-based beliefs are unrelated to degree of education, to name just one of many more differences.

I would have loved to cite Massimo Pigliucci here for one obvious similarity, but I do not refind the quote so you have to make do with my clumsy retelling:

For both, the object (object? focus) of their reveration, attention, curiosity is extremely and suspiciously elusive. Both an omnipotent god and (from our present narrow point of view) near-omnipotent alien civilisation visiting that often that roughly 20% of North-Americans report having seen a UFO, could easily demonstrate their power in a way that no further doubt would be possible. Curious that they don't.

As others, I consider it nearly sure that life exists outside of this planet, fairly likely that even intelligent life exists outside of our planet (though not necessarily at the same time), very unlikely that we have been visited even once in time. As for the near continuous (epidemic in the North Americas of the last 50 years) reports of UFOs, I consider them a sure sign of intelligence at work, but not of alien origin. The intelligence at work here is the intelligence between the two ears of the human species.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:06 PM

WHAT??? STILL?????? I thought I gave that nanny goat very specific directions.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:58 PM

Bill D: 14th level of Nangapurshta: Would that REALLY be the thirteenth level because elevator shafts don't have a 13th floor--in which case it would then have to be the 14th level? Or am I getting confused here?

Amos: Listen fellow, you have been nominated to become the new William Shatner. When you are honoured in that way, you simply say "Thank you" and accept the accolades with grace and decorum.

Little Hawk: Do NOT piss me off. Amos is a closet Shatner fan. He has never said so in that many words, but my eye has been to Nanga--whatever, and I (eye?) know.

I am thankful to all of you that no one lately has mentioned my virginity. I truly appreciate that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:42 PM

I like the idea of Amos being simultaneously the butt of crude, disrespectful humour, and unremitting adulation on Mudcat, but I still don't think he can replace Shatner. No one can fill that belt.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:59 AM

"...you get the ONE hit you need most to understand!!"

*bemused, tolerant smile with eyebrows raised here*

Yes, indeed, Amos...I will study those words at length and report back when I have reached the 14th level of Nangapurshta with my internal eye. I suspect this may take awhile, as my internal eye seems to have a cosmic cataract! My Meta-Ophthalmologist says I would do better with a white cane and/or a seeing-eye Seer.

We hopeless cases need all the help we can get! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

Brucie:

I am not sure what to make of that idea -- being compared to Shatner is not the compliment you may have intended; and if you didn't, why, let's step outside, buddy! :>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:43 AM

No way. Shatner will never die.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

Amos: You could become our new William Shatner when the icon passes.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:47 AM

I am persuaded, George, that barring meself you may well be the smartest jerk on this forum.


At least, you know all the right lines!! :>))


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:46 AM

Ellenpoly I think you've got the right of it. Height of concete to think we're the only and most intelligent race in the universe. Sad statement if we are!

The funny thing is we all seem to want to see them as variants of our own physiology and their craft as some form we could comprehend. THe fact that we have found life forms that survive by chemosynthesis at the bottom of our oceans near deep sea vents (although evolved from known species to dwell in that ecological niche) lends credence to the hypothesis that other possible life forms are possible. I have also read recently that scientists have found a silicate life form in geothermal springs (about the size of a microbe).

Perhaps they are travelling on the falling stars as has been the basis of many a "B" horror flick. They could also have an extremely long life span as compared to ours or have found a way to suspend their own physiological processes in order to make the trip? Basing your beliefs on what we are capable of being or doing at this precise time is a bad start.

Amos, quite a while back in the thread:

"Shatner is a lower form of life. WHen he dioes his body is going to be donated toi science so they can study his brain to determine if it reveals the boundary conditions between simian and sapiens."

My friend Chongo read that and screamed! He want's you to take it back. He says there's no way Shatner reaches the boundary conditions between sapiens and the higher evolutionary form simians!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:21 AM

Bill - "I'd love to know myself why some perfectly reasonable, intelligent people DO believe in various things, while others do not."

Ah. Well, there are as many reasons for that as there are individual people.

Here are some of the more common ones:

1. People tend to believe what their parents and peer group immediately around them believed when they were young...but there are also exceptions to that.

2. Some people tend to believe what their government tells them. Others believe the opposite. This tells you a lot about whom they have confidence in.

3. Some people tend to believe what their church or religious leader tells them. Others don't. The latter tend to leave that church.

4. Most people develop an emotional loyalty to the first thing they believed about any given subject! They are loath to change that loyalty by adopting a different belief, because they have to allow something that is part of them to die in order to do that.

5. Some people's beliefs are changed through an actual experience. That happened to me. I did not believe in alien vehicles at all until I saw what appeared to me to be alien vehicles. This caused me to develop new beliefs.

6. Other people's loyalty to an old belief may be so strong that not even a direct experience invalidating that belief will cause them to alter it!!! This, I would assert, is a mild form of insanity.

And so on...there are thousands of possible reasons why reasonable, intelligent people have divergent beliefs about things.

That goes for anything. Politics, UFO's, life after death, God, telepathy, vaccinations, rap music, you name it.

It is a common mistake to assume that people who don't believe what you believe are stupider or less well-informed than you. Not necessarily so! To realize this is to attain some degree of humility and brotherhood.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:57 PM

Dang, Amos, sorry 'bout that. The quiet spot with green walls and a view of the mountains is with a TA. Got it. The C is the--got it. Man, OK. I'm with you.

Burce

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:52 PM

Brucie:

You had me worried for a minute -- but what I wrote and meant was mediTAtion; changing it to mediCAtion was your idea, man! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:41 PM

"Good medication does this, for example."

Amos, truer words were never spoke.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM

Wow -- Bill -- that is SOOOOOO weird that you were just playing with Google and out of the blue you get the ONE hit you need most to understand!! I mean, like WOW! That is sooooo coool!!

Yeah the lessons in words are a bitch because of the plastivity -- anyone can mold anything in their minds and have it be stunningly real.

The way around this is finidng the lessons in experience instead of words. Good meditation does this, for example.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 09:38 PM

*grin* --yup!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 09:36 PM

I know people who believe in UFO's with a passion equal to believers in God. The only difference I can see is that God is legitimized by the church. Sort of like:

Whats the difference between an eccentric and a crazy man?

The eccentric has money!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM

I dunno how something can exist without shape....'taint MY claim..*musing smile*...I just get from folks like Little Hawk the claim that "God" or "spirit" or whatever the **Universal Force of the Universe** is is everywhere at once and somehow pervades all being, without having any particular shape or substance of its own. Perhaps it partakes of shape by pervading entities? (I spent several years learning to talk like that, and never did figure out if anyone really knew what they meant by such terminology!)

Language is fascinating....we can argue all day about things no one has ever seen....(been away 3 minutes on a whim to do a search on the phrase "higher planes of consciousness"...and got 395 hits, of which this was among the first..[I confess, I am sure that if I ever did achieve a "higher plane of consciousness", I'd have to come back down, as I couldn't cope with it]

"''You seek now, within the action of this shift, a new consciousness; to widen your awareness and to hold an objective understanding of HOW you create your reality. You DO create your reality, but much of that doing is veiled from you. You do not allow yourselves, within your singularity of attention, the viewing of how you are creating your reality within the creation of your line of probabilities in every action that you choose. This is the action of this shift, to be objectively aware of your creation of your reality, and therefore allowing you a fuller expression of your creativity and more of free movement through consciousness.''"

--The Elias Digests

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 07:57 PM

Interesting question, 'How can something that exists have no shape? (Unless it is not actually glued in to the space-time continuum but exists otherwise...)'

I've heard that yellow is tubular and gratitude is heavier than air, but I don't know.

Way back when I first started doiog computer graphics, I got to wondering, "Where is the drawiing I just did on the machine?" You can print it out in a number of ways, including color, b&w, sepia,1's and 0's, and typographic characters. And I suppose punch cards. Dot matrix. So where's the original? And what's the original?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:29 PM

Wlel, Bill, that's a pretty major point you're making there!! How can somethign that exists have no shape? (Unless it is not actually glued in to the spacve-time continuum but exists otherwise...)


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:19 PM

well, if I understand correctly, 'spirit' HAS no shape...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:16 PM

I meant the shape of what they believe in....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM

well, dianavan didn't ask about the difference between God & UFOs, but in the difference between their believers. I'd guess the question was related to psychology and mindset.

I'd love to know myself why some perfectly reasonable, intelligent people DO believe in various things, while others do not.

(I have some suspicions and ideas, but they are merely conjecture)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:09 PM

Can't get the link to work. If you are interested in UFOs that have been portrayed in old art, google    ufos, art    and click on this site

NIBIRU, PLANET X, ANCIENT ASTRONAUTS, NASA, MARS, EARTH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:30 PM

I agree with Amos. Definitely the shape.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:40 PM

Huh? I don't quite follow your question, Dianavan. I believe in UFO's (alien vehicles?) because I saw some. I believe in God because I FEEL that there is a greater power within everything that I can't see, but that I can sense and perceive the workings of in various ways.

To explain the nature of that God would take some considerable time, and would have little to do with conventional religions, per se.

A UFO is a specific, isolated phenomenon. God is an indwelling intelligence, awareness, force/energy/intention/spirit that is within and around everything...and is the summation and source of everything...according to my view of it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

Their reviews of "The Passion" and "ET"? I don't know. What?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM

The shape?

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:02 PM

Whats the difference between those that believe in God and those that believe in UFO's?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM

A couple of thoughts here:

I have NEVER seen a 'figure' of Jesus that looks anything like a man one would expect a Jew from that area and that period of time to look like. Is this conscious pandering or an example of unconscious racism?

Regarding the faces and figures one routinely sees in wood and linoleum and wallpaper stains - doesn't everyone?- it would be interesting to use a magic marker to outline each one. Wouldn't that be a busy scene!

I have written previously in various threads about my own experiences with the unexplained- so, yes, I do believe that there are things out there - and in us, for that matter - that science and the man down the street does not yet have a glimmer of. The fact that people say that it isn't so, even though they carefully explain why it isn't so, is no more convincing than what we already know.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 02:15 PM

True, Amos...and there is a difference between physical and documented evidence that is openly presented to the public, and that which is not.

Big difference.

Got a great book on crop circles coming your way, Amos. Tell me what you think after you read it. (I'm not suggesting, however, that crop circles are necessarily caused by UFO's. Aside from the obvious hoaxes, I have no idea what they are caused by, but it's clear that they are not all hoaxes by any means.)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM

Oh. So? What about 'em. Doug and Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM

Little Hawk:

What I mean is that there is a difference between testimonial and evidence. Because of the unplumbed plasticity of the human mind, it is very difficult to resolve a question as far-out as ETs absent some sort of material evidence that can be measured. It is a sorry fact that anyone can believe anything.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:57 PM

oh, brucie...we have DONE crop circles...*grin*.... You think Mudcat has missed ANY of the popular debates?