BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST,
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST,Bugsy
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:19 AM

The Guest from hell and Big Mick
Had a hell of a bone to pick
They growled and gnawed
They hemmed and they hawed
'Til both ended up with a sore dick.

B

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 06:27 PM

Guest:

Your statement is just innuendo -- you giveno facts of substance. Why do you not cite details?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 05:28 PM

Let's just say Mick, I got quite the education about Max, about Mudcat, and about you and the other Mudcat's clones when I went to my service provider.

You've done a bit more than just respond to my posts, shall we say?

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 05:18 PM

Your paranoia is really going a mile a minute these days. The truth is that other than responding to you when you say things that I believe need challenging, or when you are being cruel, I don't spend any time on you. When you try and make this case with Charmion, I believe you waste time as she knows me personally. She also knows what I am about.

GUEST, it is a real shame that you just can't bring yourself to act in a decent fashion. My offer was sincere, and it wasn't the first time I have made sincere offers. But your offer of peace only if I agree to not respond to anything you say is not even reasonable. What you are really saying is that you don't want to be accountable for the positions you take.

My offer stands, and so does my bottom line. I will respond to posts that I think need responding to. If you are being rude and nasty, then I will point that out. Respond if you want, don't if you don't want.

Shame, really. I believe we could actually do some good by showing different approaches to the same problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 04:38 PM

If you are wondering how that works Charmion, it goes like this.

Many site operators like Mudcat's Max have the ability to do data mining (Max's former business was doing just that) including (but not limited to) placing tracking "web bugs" on their pages to collect information about site visitors, such as which pages are being read most often. Too small for readers to see, the bugs also can be used in more invasive ways, for instance, capturing a visitor's Internet Protocol address (or IP), and then tracking the visitor's presence on the World Wide Web.

The web tracking bugs can also be matched with "cookies," the electronic files that are stored on a PC and can contain personal information such as name and e-mail address, which is what Mudcat uses for it's members.

In the case of Mudcat's security policies, you have Max's promise that your data won't be used or abused. Which isn't exactly an ironclad guarantee of anything in this internet day and age, especially considering news accounts like these!

Once your IP address has been captured (think of it as your computer's address), a lot of information can be mined from the internet about you. Everyone who logs onto this website leaves behind the IP of the computer they logged in from, each and every time they visit, but only certain people whom the site provided has given special access to, can see that information.

Big Mick is one of the people here with those special access privleges, hence his and any of the other site users with those same special access privleges, has access to that information about you. And of course, here it is all on the "honor system". There is no system of checks and balances as far as privacy and security goes at private websites like Mudcat.

So it is just a question of whether or not you trust the site owner and the people he has given special access privleges, with your data.

Fortunately for me, I have an excellent provider who has actually done leg work for me on what the Mudcat is and isn't doing with my personal data.

There are a few ways to fight back against people spying on you online, but if I went into that here, this post would be deleted. In fact, this post will probably be deleted anyway. The site owner is really paranoid about the site users finding out about internet privacy and security relevant to this website.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:46 PM

Well, you do get het up some, don't you? Suit yourself.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:44 PM

Sorry, above should read "regular user of the site..."

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM

Hi Charmion.

The answer to your question is this: Mick has more abilities than you or I to track/stalk posters here, because he has clone privleges given to him by the site owner, which allows him to see more information about posters than what a regular use of the site can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST,Charmion at work
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:13 PM

Call me an idiot for sticking my oar in here, but the accusations of the anonymous GUEST against Big Mick seem inherently irrational to me. Stalkers keep under cover and don't let their target know who they are. Big Mick always signs his name so everyone can see that his opinions are coming from him. Who's the stalker here?

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM

Hey Guest, as long as you dragged me into it, you pukefaced, hairlipped, elephant eared, no genitalia, anal pore of a poster, why don't you just eat shit and ponder it's flavor?

OK?

don't let the door hit your smelly big ass on your way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:56 PM

You can stalk and attack me and call it "debating" all you want Mick.

But like I said, from here on out you are going to have play with yourself, not me. I won't respond.

Obviously, nothing you are saying here requires any further response from me, so this is the last post you'll see from me to you.

Same goes for you Amos. This post is it, fellas. You are on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:42 PM

No, Amos, I don't think that is the case. I think that this thing between GUEST and I has gotten to the point of being ridiculous. There is likely fault for that to be placed on both of us. I believe that GUEST is sincere in the request. GUEST is also a very good spokesperson for the point of view s/he represents. It is my opinion that s/he is wrong on the solution as she believes I am, but I think we can get by that, and turn it to productive discussion. One of the first ways to help that become the norm is to acknowledge that this isn't a contest with a winner or loser, just a discussion of positions.

GUEST, I have used terms to describe you that I will not use again. I will not question your motives, in fact I am willing to say here and now that they are honest reflections of your point of view. I will debate you, but only on the merits of your arguments as I see them. I only ask that you do the same. The Irish have a saying that can be used to describe this circumstance. It is, "To there and no further". In other words, what is past is past. I acknowledge to you that we have gone beyond what honest discourse requires and should be, and that I have been part of that. That will not lessen the passion with which I discuss things, as I am passionate in my beliefs. Can you do the same? Can you and I agree that the personal attacks on each other and others here are no longer necessary? I sincerely hope so, because I believe you to be an articulate spokesperson for the 3rd party point of view. I also consider you to have strong opinions on war that I am interested in discussing, as long as it isn't conducted as an attack on me, but rather an attack on the system you detest. If we could begin to develop a bit of respect for others views (respect does not equate acceptance), I believe these discussions could be of value to others.

I sincerely hope we can do this. I am very willing to give it full effort.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:40 PM

I'm obnoxious because I pointed out the illogic in your diatribe? Dear Gawd, get a grip.

I don't mind being in your ignore list. Fine company and all that. Are you serious that the illogic of your dialog is unclear to you?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM

I'll add you to the list of posters here I'll never respond to again Amos, just because you are so obnoxious. So since I'm turning over my new leaf for posting behavior with Mick, I'm going to add the two of you to my mental Mudcat killfile, right along with Martin Gibson.

You are all peas in a pod.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:14 PM

Guest: are you willing, here and now, to publicly promise you will never respond to another one of my posts here again?

Mick: Nope. But what I will promise is that I will only respond to the merits of the case you are presenting.

Guest: Then you aren't sincere Mick. You are interested in continuing on with your grudge match.

Dear Guest:

I am sorry to tell you this, but you are being irrational. Your conclusion is illogical. Not to say hysterical or paranoid or both. You've been offered a civilized deal of benefit to both parties AND the community.

I'd say take it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:05 PM

Then you aren't sincere Mick. You are interested in continuing on with your grudge match. Sure, it would have been great for us to be able to debate with one another like you and I both do with everyone else on the forum. But that hasn't happened.

So for years you have dragged out this totally pointless grudge match, just to reserve the right to attack me whenever you disagree with me. That says you have no interest in peace. You want the status quo--stalking me, and attacking me anytime you feel like it.

Nobody is fooled by your refusal to drop your grudge, because that is what this is about Mick. Your grudge.

All peace requires some sacrifice. I am more than willing to sacrifice the "right" to debate with you, for peace between us. But since you refuse to do that, you need to know that from here on out, it is going to be a one sided war, because I'm done with you. I will never respond to another one of your posts again.

So you win Mick. You are free to stalk me, and attack me whenever and wherever you want. I won't respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

Nope. But what I will promise is that I will only respond to the merits of the case you are presenting. Your "offer" is one sided in that you want the freedom to throw out ideas that I fundamentally may disagree with, in a public forum. But I will give you this. As long as you do the same, without the perjorative and vile comments, we will restrict our discourse to the discussion of the matter at hand. No talk of motives, no personal invective. Just discussion of whatever is at hand.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:31 PM

Mick, you said "Finally, if I really wanted you to leave, why would I have reached out to you a number of times to try and make enough of a respectful peace between us so we could just debate and discuss issues as two intelligent, mature individuals?"

Anyone with any internet experience with these sorts of grudge matches knows that isn't a practical solution, and it won't work.

There is one way and one way only for there to be a lasting peace between us: that I never respond to your posts, and you never respond to mine. Period.

However, up until now, you haven't been willing to do that, because you insist upon maintaining your right to personally attack me whenever the urge strikes your fancy, always claiming you are attacking me in order to defend the forum from my "attacks". We are all adults here, and no one posting to this forum needs you to defend them from me.

I went for a long time not responding to any of your posts attacking me. I do know that ignoring people with whom I just don't get along with on the internet is the best way to go. I have fallen off the wagon on this, but I am going to promise publicly, here and now, that I will never respond to another one of your posts, now matter how vicious your personal attacks, Mick. I am making that promise for my own peace of mind and for the good of the other people who use the forum who are fed up with this stupidity.

So how about it Mick? In the interest of peace, are you willing, here and now, to publicly promise you will never respond to another one of my posts here again?

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

Nerd, I'm not grasping your logic, but I'm guessing that may be because your thinking involves some loyalty to either the Democratic or Republican party?

So if you would please, help me see if I'm understanding you correctly.

Your argument is, it seems to me, that since someone is going to win the election no matter what, a voter with one particular threshold issue (just as a for instance) should vote for the person whom the voter knows is lying about the things on your (the voter's) election agenda, even if they won't deliver, because that candidate is preferable to voting for someone who may or may not be lying, but either has no equivalent plan or a plan you disagree with.

Have I got that right? Is that what you are saying?

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:45 AM

GUEST, my point was that pragmatism of that sort ("Kerry may have decent ideas but has a low chance being able to implement them") is dumb when your other options are to vote for someone with no ideas, or for someone with better ideas but no chance of implementing them, or not voting. It was not pragmatism itself that does not suit. It was pragmatism in that context.

In other words, you were arguing that we shouldn't vote for Kerry because it was not very pragmatic, when in fact every other option was even LESS pragmatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:34 PM

Funny, but Fuzzy endorses Kerry, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST,Peaseblossom
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:29 PM

Jocko Endorses Kerry.

Peaseblossom

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:17 PM

Egglet:

I don't get it. Explain.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST,Egglet
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:13 PM

Giuseppe the organ grinder:

Giuseppe the organ grinder had a monkey named Jocko.
One day they were going down a street and the street lamp had been freshly painted.
Jocko attempted to climb the first pole but Giuseppe said no no Jocko, that has wet paint.
Jocko attempted to climb the second pole but Giuseppe said no no Jocko, that has wet paint.
Jocko attempted to climb the third pole but Giuseppe said no no Jocko, that has wet paint.
Jocko attempted to climb the fourth pole but Giuseppe said no no Jocko, that has wet paint.
Jocko attempted to climb the fifth pole but Giuseppe said no no Jocko, that has wet paint.
And so it went until they got to the last pole.
Jocko attempted to climb the last pole and Giuseppe said "Jesus Christ Jocko, are you a Democrat or something"?

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM

That is funny. It is true that IP's are not private, but that is not how I track you. In fact I don't track you at all. I simply watch for a thread that begins with making comments about Kerry, then you turn it into an all out attack, and end up by advocating that folks vote for Nader. For what it is worth, that is how most folks know you around here.

As to your contention of wanting you to leave, I actually don't care if you stay or leave. That choice is up to you. But I will respond to you each time you make comments I disagree with, or if you are bullying folks. I, quite frankly, don't care if you don't like it. But that is no different than many others here. Further, I would direct you to the numerous threads you have posted in that I never attacked you. Did I agree with you in each? Nope, but you weren't being the asshole you accuse me of being.

Finally, if I really wanted you to leave, why would I have reached out to you a number of times to try and make enough of a respectful peace between us so we could just debate and discuss issues as two intelligent, mature individuals? Why would I do that? I actually believe that you don't want that. If you did, you would have taken the offer. It came with no conditions, and no need to admit anyone has been wrong. These offers were honest attempts for us to share dialogue from the perspectives of a couple of savvy folks, who see many of the same problems, but have different approaches to solving them. You have rejected that, often in vile terms, out of hand each time it is offered. The offer still stands. Just agree to stop attacking when someone doesn't agree with you. I will agree to the same. Maybe we could end the cycle that has developed here.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:30 PM

Hey Guest, what's for dinner?

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:25 PM

BTW Nerd, there are other options you didn't mention: not voting for president, but voting in all the other races on your local ballot, or not voting at all, which is how half the electorate exercises their political pragmatism: staying home, and watching it all on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:20 PM

And why doesn't pragmatism suit? If neither Kerry or Bush is going to make the necessary health care reforms to bring the US medical system out of the Middle Ages, why vote for either of them if that is your threshold issue in this election?

Why give the vote to someone you know won't do for you what you want them to do for you as your elected official? That is an argument against voting at all, actually, as the most pragmatic course. We should be withholding our votes from the candidates who we know won't follow a course of governance we want followed. That is doing our citizen's duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:10 PM

Kerry has made a lot of promises, most of which he will never deliver upon. I would put his so-called health care "reforms" at the top of the list of promises he will never fulfill, because 1) he won't have a mandate, and 2) even if elected by a +2% majority over Bush, he won't have the backing of Congress, because of the AMA/HMO lobby.


This is very pragmatic coming from GUEST. But pragmatism doesn't suit here. After all, your other choices are:

Vote Bush, who doesn't even make the promise.

Or vote for a third party candidate who won't actually win.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

You are a phony and a liar. You posted what you posted, because you knew it would get a rise out of me.

And just how is that you looked up the threads I started Mick? Answer: because you are abusing your Joe Clone privleges to stalk me. Right?

Debating me in threads is one thing. That is what Amos and the other Kerry supporters do, on a level playing field. They don't have the ability to stalk me, because they don't have access to the software you have to identify IPs. You do have that access, and you use it to stalk me all the time. And of course, it is purely political. Our disagreemnt over militarism, the election, you use your clone powers to come after me.

So that means you are abusing your power to stalk me in ways no other posters can, except other clones.

Why is my discussion of politics "propaganda" but yours isn't Mick? Answer: because I disagree with you, and you have power over me as a clone, and use it regularly to piss all over my posts.

That makes you some big man in the eyes of the other clones, and the forum users who vehemently disagree with my politics. But let's be clear about this. This is internet stalking, and I don't care if you have the blessing of Max to do it. It is sick, it is abusive, and you are way out of line to keep doing it.

I have no power to stop you short of quitting the forum, which I know is your personal goal--to drive me out. I also have accepted the fact that even when I ignore you, as I have always done on the internet when assholes like yourself come after me for my politics or the provocative nature of my writing, you won't leave me alone. That much you have made clear. You refuse to ignore me, because you are the kind of passive aggressive jerk that gets a big rush from power-tripping those you can lord it over.

Congratulations. I'm sure everyone is impressed with your omnipotence. But it is your personal impotence in your 3D life that matters at the end of the day. Not how successful you are at swinging your dick around in an internet chat forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:28 PM

To anyone who believes what this poor soul is saying, please go back and read my post of 1 Nov. at 11:19. You will find that I was responding to this person's post. You will find it was this GUEST who used her parents to evoke sympathy. The only reason you are angry is because I sincerely sympathized, but not in the manipulative way you wanted. If anyone should be ashamed, it is you.

I stand by my statements in response to you, and about the subject. Isn't about time for you to use crude sexual comments now?

By the way, in response to your charge that I am stalking you, I went back and looked up the number of threads that you have started with regard to Kerry, Nader, and your political agenda. How in the hell could anyone be accused of stalking you when you keep putting this stuff out there? You have wasted more bandwidth on the same tired old line than any other poster. And I repeat. As long as you keep laying your propaganda out there, I (and others, I have noticed) will hold you accountable.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:24 PM

Guest, stop it right now.

He said nothing of the kind. He triewd to offer his condolences for your sorrow, as any decent human might, and you would have nothing of it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:21 PM

"How about you take on a handle, claim your own life and point of view as your own, and join the ranks of people who..."

Because of stalkers like Big Mick, who obviously knows no bounds of true depravity, as he demonstrated above when he suggested that the misery and suffering of my parents was actually due to my poor voting choices.

I didn't know scum could stoop so low, even in a hotly contested election year.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:46 PM

For good and sufficient reason, too!! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

well it could be worse .........

pick nose, pick butt, pick bush, get face slapped.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:51 PM

Guest,

How about you take on a handle, claim your own life and point of view as your own, and join the ranks of people who all have burdens of the heart among others but who strive to over ocme them and steer toward better lives across the board? To so requires no compromise, no embarassment, but carries a reward of more open and freeflowing communication, which is a balm for the soul under any circumstances.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM

Sure, but first let's clear something up. I am not stalking you, I am talking to you in the internet sense. All you have to do to get me to stop talking to you is stop posting. But it seems what you want to the ability to throw your gratuitous assertions around, and we are supposed to just ignore the first rule of debate. A gratuitous assertion can be just as gratuitously denied". You post here to get a response. That is the nature of a forum.

Here is what Miriam Webster says a forum is:

Etymology: Latin; akin to Latin foris outside, fores door -- more at DOOR

1 a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper) of open discussion or expression of ideas

2 : a judicial body or assembly : COURT

3 a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities

If you really wanted me to not talk to you, you would stop posting. As long as you put out positions, it is my right, and the right of everyone here to respond. When you throw your parents very sad plight out here, you are inviting response. If that is not what you want, it should not be here.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:04 PM

So prove that you are sincere, and stop stalking me.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM

I am sorry that you are so bitter. As I have pointed out, you take different approaches on different threads. This is an example of why your protestations about stopping the attacks is nothing but rhetoric. You could care less about stopping it.

For the record, I am sorry that this has happened in your life. It shows clearly where the problems lie in our system. I believe the best way to not create more victims is to get this man out of office.

Deal with your anger. Or don't. It matters not to me. But I am sincere when I tell you that I am sorry for what has happened, in this case, to your parents.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:32 AM

Fuck you asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM

I hate to hear this, and it is why I believe that ousting Bush is job 1. While GUEST and I have serious disagreements as to the how this gets done, I understand the anger over a system that would do this to hard working, decent folks who happened to buy into the American dream. One of the faults of the land of my birth is the disgraceful way we treat our aged citizens. Another is the way we treat our teachers and educators. On both scores I am in the same camp. But our differences, and they are dramatic, have to do with the best way to effect change. It seems to me that a Quixote vote for Nader only creates more tragedies like your parents. Please understand that I am not trying to use your parents against you with that argument. I am sincere in saying it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:42 AM

It also split up my parents, and they lost their home.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:23 AM

re: Mom on Welfare.
The way system now works is - you go into a nursing home and pay until your money runs out. If you try to give your money away to relatives, it has to be done two years before you go into the nursing home or they can claim it. You are allowed enough to bury yourself and a few things like a TV. When the money is gone, Welfare and Medicaid take over the payments. So yeah, after working your whole life and paying taxes you are reduced to the "dole", a real humiliation for some.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:58 PM

A vote for Nader is likely to be a vote for Bush, things being as close as they are. The consequences of this election are so meaningful and possibly live-or-death that I would consider it a wake-up call to anyone with two brain cells left to rub together, to get off their hobbyhorses and block the flood of encroaching fascistic measurements coming out of Washington.

One single life saved because we acted to get Kerry;'s brains in to replace Bush's gonads and "gut" is worth it. It isn't likely to be your life Guest, but it might be your brother's, or some teenaged girl full of hope trying to grow up in a small and rattled apartment in Fallujah. One vote, in this context, can have a ripple effect across the planet, reaching out and protecting that one child, or that one soldier, because a more intelligent hand was in command of American forces.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:38 PM

poppagator, I am not the least bit surprised to see your response. As I said earlier and elsewhere in these threads, the fact that lesser of two evils voters are going to once again cast a lesser than two evils vote for John Kerry, is utterly predictable.

But you are deluding yourself if you think you can vote conservative today, and see a victory of progressive values tomorrow. As long as everybody keeps falling for the scare tactics of their own side (ie the scare tactics of Democrats, or the scare tactics of Republicans) and voting accordingly, the winner in election after election will be he the status quo candidate who best serves the interests of big corporate money.

Because a vote against Bush is a vote for Kerry, just like a vote against Kerry is a vote for Bush.

A vote for Nader is something else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:34 PM

Careful, lads. If you start making sense, or holding this bitter GUEST accoutable for her positions, she will start to use crude sexual innuendo. The only time GUEST sounds reasonable is when you allow the smugness.

I repeat. The ivory tower intellectual attitude expressed by this idiot smacks of one who doesn't care what happens to others. It is easy to be smug when you don't have to worry about the effects. The agenda is easy to see and decipher. This maladjusted person wants to create a self fulfilling prophecy. It goes like this. We have a razor thin election. The contrasts to between the candidates of the major parties is profound. The Naderites are angry that their guy has lost influence as a result of this. The defection of even a small amount will likely cause the election to go to Bush. Then four years later, after they have spun it that the Dems picked a lousy candidate, they will use it to try and reinvigorate their third party movement. It proves what I have said from the beginning. Nader is a megalomaniac that is willing to burn down the house to insure himself a job as a Fire Battallion Chief. He thinks it is about him, instead of the average person that will suffer as a result of Bush policies.

Many of these supporters are otherwise decent folks. My opinion is that this GUEST, based on the posts, is not one of these. This is just a bitter, out of touch person.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

Guest:

Generalized, loose-hinged flappery isnot constructive.

Why, for exampe, is a "single payer" health pan a better deal? You wave your arms around with your idealism leaking out all over the place but I just don't see how you think this will make apositive difference in November.

You have four years after the election to get a move on activating your progressive friends into a meaningful group. Doing it now, instead of after the election, is not constructive, but destructive. The one chance youhave to make a decent improvement in the short term is being tossed overboard while you grope for some path to make a long term difference. That's nutso, IMHO.

And to do with such bitter invective is unbecoming.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

Several years ago, the Louisiana governorship was contested between the corrupt and discredited former Governor Edwin Edwards and former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, David Duke.

That year marked the high point of my participation in the electoral process; I spent election day working out of Edwards headquarters, ferrying elderly and indigent registered Democrats from their homes to their local polling places.

The operative slogan for that election was "Hold Nose, Pick Edwards." The most popular bumpersticker read "Vote for the Crook -- It's Important."

I feel that this presidential election is similar, insofar as the "lesser of two evils" is *so* much more desirable than the unspeakable alternative. I harbor no illusions about the Democratic Party as part of the same entrenched establishment as the Republicans, but the so-called "neoconservative" bunch currently in control of the government (Orwellian neofascists, to my thinking) have simply GOT to go.

I'll save my efforts to encourage the growth of a more ideal progressive movement for other years, and for other (local) elections this year. It's not *always* important which major-party candidate prevails in a given election -- in fact, I'll grant that it usually makes little or no difference -- but this time around, I'm really concerned about WHO ACTUALLY WINS, and who controls the Executive Branch for the next four years, than I am about any long-term ideals.

Subject: RE: BS: Pick nose, Pick butt, Pick Kerry
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:07 PM

No, winning the presidency isn't what it is about for me and Nader's supporters. Building a progressive movement for electoral reform is what it is about. Opposing the US war on the Muslim world, is what it is about. Opposing big money politics is what it is about. Opposing the "business as usual" politics of the Democratic and Republican parties is what is about.

As the Center for Public Integrity studies show, the monied interests bankrolling both candidates are identical. Not nearly identical, but identical. Big media, big finance corporations (ie Wall Street), and the nation's biggest law firms representing big media and Wall Street, are who are running for president of both parties.

Read it and weep, Kerry voters.