BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:38 AM

"I'm pretty sure they'll find themselves 'not guilty' when they carry out their 'impartial' enquiry."

Surely not!

Oh yeah, that's right the US blocked a transparent independent international enquiry. Though we will have a couple of token "friends of Israel" ineffectually hanging about.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

Don, you and Jim are childishly simplistic in your assessments.
We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred.

We do know that the first soldiers landed with paintball guns in their hands, and holstered pistols.

It could easily be, that faced with an overwhelming number of suicidal fanatics armed with clubs and chains, they used their pistols to save their lives.
That would all be entirely consistent with the evidence we do have.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:29 AM

"Did they start killing people Jim?"
They have ben killing those who got in the way of their land accession ambitions for over forty decades - little wonder you want to confine this to their latest act of piracy.
If you mean did they start killing people on the convoy - I'm pretty sure they'll find themselves 'not guilty' when they carry out their 'impartial' enquiry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

""Did they start killing people Jim?
There is no evidence they did, and considerable evidence that they had no intention of using lethal force, but were themselves subject to attack.""

Nine dead bodies on one side, and onthe other side? No dead, and only one with an injury considered serious (and that based on a statement by the side that did the killing).

What would you consider to be evidence then?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 02:02 AM

It is not that clear cut Jim.

Piracy?
This is what BBC says.

Israel breach international law?
This is disputed. A Turkish draft resolution circulated at the UN Security Council described the attack as a violation of international law. Turkish foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu called the raid "tantamount to banditry and piracy" and "murder conducted by a state".
Israel's foreign ministry says that under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. It adds: "Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law."
The question may hinge on whether the blockade itself is legal.

Did they start killing people Jim?
There is no evidence they did, and considerable evidence that they had no intention of using lethal force, but were themselves subject to attack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 11:44 PM

FWIW:

Iranian aid flotilla canceled

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 08:15 PM

Simple common sense really - troops who board a ship and kill a number of the passengers in international waters are pirates who are guilty of an atrocity - quite apart from the other atrocities they have committed which Keith and co. have carefully ducked (the use of chemical weapons on a civilian population; the bombing of hospitals and schools, the attempt to starve the Palestinians into submission.....) how much evidence do you want - it's all there. If none of these things happened - please feel free to say so.
I never thought I'd say it but Israel now bears all the hallmarks of a Nazi state - they have learned well from their former persecutors.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 07:42 PM

How will you know it's impartial?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

"Was it an atrocity?
How do you know? "

We won't for sure. At least not until the transparent impartial international investigation takes place..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

Was it an atrocity?
How do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM

"I agree Israelis lie."
All politicians lie - they don't kill women and children - not all of them anyway.
You cannot separate the attack on the aid convoy from the rest of their atrocities; they are all part of the same objective; usurpation of Palesrtinian territory (even 22 houses worth).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

This thread is about the aid convoy, and by the other side I mean IHH.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:44 PM

Are rights activists and NGO's "the other side"?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 10:04 AM

Jim, this thread is about the aid convoy.
I agree Israelis lie.
The other side also lies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 09:25 AM

"Yes, if you believe everything the activists say, and nothing the Israelis say."
No act of piracy, no occupation of Palestinian land, no wall, no phophorus weapons used in the last incursion, no bombing of hospitals and schools, no shooting down of civilians, no opposition to UN enquiry, no demolition of homes in Gaza, no proposal to demolish 22 Palestinian homes to construct a tourist centre, no blockade...........
Which of these are inventions of activists and without back-up evidence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:46 AM

Yes, if you believe everything the activists say, and nothing the Israelis say.
If you only accept that for which there is evidence then you can not justify your verdict, and you just become part of the propaganda war.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM

Israel has committed a war crime against not only the Gazan people but those who want to see them have basic human rights. There is no legitimate defense for Israel's violent action using commandos to attack an unarmed ship whose motivation was clear at the outset.

Once again, the American-Israeli-Public-Affairs-Committee have disseminated their
insane propaganda and are helping to make Israel the pariah of the world.

And Obama is going along with this criminal behavior.

With this type of apartheid and oppression against Gazans, how can Israel be a friend to the U.S.? Their policies are a denial of democracy and basic human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 11:43 AM

Meanwhile back at the ranch; the Israelis are preparing to demol;ish 22 Palestinian homes in Jerusalem to erect a tourist centre.

But that doesn't matter because the Israelis have God's favour, and the Palestinians are brown.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:15 AM

While this nit-picking apologist crap rumbles on - in the real world:
Israel has requested that the United Nations shelves its inquiry into the atrocity in deference to its own - surprise, surprise!
Meanwhile back at the ranch; the Israelis are preparing to demol;ish 22 Palestinian homes in Jerusalem to erect a tourist centre.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:04 AM

Iara Lee yesterday posted another piece about her (Cultures Of Resistance) video.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/iara-lee/the-video-israel-doesnt-w_b_621788.html


She now accepts the final death toll as 9.
No wounded thrown into sea etc., and no missing who might have been the victim of the supposed murder clip.
You must now accept that you got that all wrong Carol, and it was false.

She now says, "Prior to the raid they are talking, sleeping, praying or working on their computers. After commandos invade the ship you see men scrambling, the dead and wounded being hurried to the lower decks, away from Israeli gunfire, "

There is no longer the claim of serious injuries prior to landing.
There was no blood.
You were both wrong about that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 08:40 AM

The captain and chief officer have said that activists prepared weapons hours before the confrontation.
They used a grinder, that was not part of the ship's equipment, to cut steel poles and chains.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 01:27 AM

The IHH site is carrying the interview with Laura Stuart.
They use a number of images from the Cultures Of Resistance video, but not the one that you thought showed the blood of the first victim of the Israelis.
http://www.ihh.org.tr/haksizliga-ve-adaletsizlige-karsi-bir-seyler-yapmaya-calisanlarin-gemisi/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

The Problem with Eyewitness Testimony:a talk by Barbara Tversky, Professor of Psychology and George Fisher, Professor of Law.   Stanford Law School, April 5, 1999:



http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

Israeli thuggery isn't believable? Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 06:51 AM

Carol, individual eyewitnesses say many things.
That is not to suggest that they are all liars, but their experiences may have jumbled the precise timeline in their memories.

Please use your contacts to establish if the leadership is claiming live fire and significant injuries before the landings.
If not, our scrutinising of these stains is pointless.

The ship's captain is interviewed on IHH site.
The Google translation is poor.
Can kaybý ve yaralanmalarýn çoðu askerlerin ilk giriþi ve üst güverteden aþaðý açtýklarý ateþ esnasýnda gerçek mermiler kullanýlmasý nedeniyle oldu.
Fatalities and injuries are often the first sign of the soldiers and they opened fire down from the upper deck because when real bullets were used.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:52 AM

Paul, Israel has a long history of using lethal force against stone throwing demonstrators.

They pelted the armed boat parties with everything they could pick up and throw, but were so confident of only getting paint in return that people were left to bleed.

It is consistent with what we see but not really believable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:47 PM

Keith- you appear not to understand something very simple.
The people on the convoy knew that the Israelis would not shoot at peaceful demonstrators, because that would destroy their (the Israelis') credibility. After all, they are the heirs of the Shoah, of Exodus 1947, of the Warsaw Ghetto. They would recognise legitimate protest against oppression when it was shown to them. Scene in Battleship Potemkin: "Brothers! Would you shoot your comrades?"

Not brothers, like Tsarists the whole world are just enemies to paranoid Israel. They fired on their own credibility and killed what remained of it.

They saw paint balls because live shots were impossible. They hadn't counted on Israel's crackhead sense of invincibility.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM

Do you require help finding the other stains?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

Which video or video sequence are you referencing in your last post, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

Carol, when real casualties appear there is a rush to give help and take them to safety.
A most natural human reaction especially in people united in a struggle.
Carol, why does no one show any concern for the person bleeding to death feet away from them?
They were hit less than two and a half minutes earlier.
They might be saved.
People stand around.
One strolls past the dying brother's flowing lifeblood and calls to Hassan, but no urgency.

My explanation is that everyone knows there is no victim.
What is yours?

A few yards to the right of the ladder, a similar flow can be seen coming down the side from the deck above.
No one cares about that either.

The time has come for us to agree to differ Carol.
The downloads all have the missing 15 seconds now.
I think it is going to go back to being paint, but we will see.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

Forgot this part... and many of them report two or more casualties prior to the Israelis landing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM

Keith, I have posted numerous testimonies from people aboard the ship reporting live fire before the Israelis landed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

It's dripping down from the hatch. It's point of origin is above the hatch. The presence of red substance on items on the deck where the person filming is doesn't mean anything, since there were also paintballs with red paint in them being fired as well. Most likely the red on the things near the videographer is paint from paintballs. Which would account for the initial confusion about what is dripping down from the hatch.

As I've said already a few times, what other reason would the Israelis have for using paintballs with blood colored paint in them in a situation like this one? When before has any kind of military commando unit ever used paintballs as a part of their ordinance? Why would they use them in this context? The only reason is to obscure something they don't want seen and to create confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

He seems like a great bloke.
Has he seen our debate?

The laser would be on a firearm, but there is no evidence of it firing before the landing.
We have been arguing about who started the violence, and fixated on the stains.
Notwithstanding Espen's e-mail, the activists are not actually claiming live fire or serious casualties before the soldiers landed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:20 AM

Keith,

Espen said "The laser-dot didn`t seem to correspond with paintball guns, so thats when we seriously started reconsidering."

This corresponds exactly with my interpretation of the events in the video in a previous post when I said:

From: Lox - PM
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:56 PM


"The Norwegian Thinks (not knows) that the IDF are only firing paintballs so it isn't blood.

The big guy says "now its the real one" or something, and laughs, whilst drawing attention to the lazer sight.

This could be a laugh of nervousness or of disbelief, but whatever it is it is in response to the lazer sight, and is suggesting to the norwegian that he should perhaps not be so confident."

Once again, eyewiness testimony is consistent with video evidence.

I have since become virtual friends with Espen online.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM

I can only repeat that the video evidence does not support it being blood.
I make it 2 minutes and 24 seconds from first pops as boat comes alongside until stains are seen. What became of the victim in that time?

Ten feet to the right of the ladder is a bin with a blanket on top.
How did blood get on that?
Further right still a second bin is liberally smeared.
It could not have come from the hatch.

As time went on, people were exposed to the projectiles at close range. Not fired, against gravity, up to the decks of the ship, from a boat at sea level

Espen Goffeng was doing great service as an objective journalist showing the world what was happening. I admire that.
He then saw the violent deaths of friends and comrades, and like all the crew was treated severely by the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM

One of the biggest obstacles to sanctioning Israel for their misdeeds is the bloc known as AIPAC in the U.S. which used to be known as American Israeli Political Action Committee and then changed their name to American Israeli Public Affairs Committee.

BTW the people in Gaza are not being supported by the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM

""The area those ships declared they were going to was under declared blockade- the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis.""

Not True! Kennedy knew those ships were carrying missiles, because the reds had made no secret of the fact. That constituted a "clear and present danger".

Where the Fotilla was going is immaterial, as it was attacked in international waters. If it had been within the territorial waters of Palestine, there might (and I only say might) be some merit in the action.

""You can't claim they were inspected for weapons, and then had those weapons when attacked- so, were they inspected before leaving port, or not?""

Iron bars would not be unusual aboard ship, with a number of possible functions other than hitting anybody. A galley without kitchen knives would be strange indeed. Would you, if planning resistance to an armed boarding party, rely on those "weapons", to repel men with rifles and sidearms? I don't think so.

""And seven IDF were wounded, one of whom is probably permanantly brain damaged. Tehy were trained military, enforcing a blockade- THAT should say something abotu the violence by the people on the ship.""

OH PUHLEASE! Seven injured, and one "possibly" brain damaged, according to the Israeli government, which is desperately trying to cover up the mess. So that'll be gospel then....DUH!

Wouldn't it be tragic if one or two managed to break a fingernail in the course of executing nine vastly outgunned civilians.

""a- so as long as someone does not kill, it is ok?""

No! Since they were defending themselves against men with lethal weapons, it would have been OK even if they HAD killed. BUT THEY DID NOT!

After all you are trying to make the case that using guns to execute civilians armed with iron bars and kitchen knives constitutes reasonable force. You can't have it both ways.

""b- Prove that- I can claim with as much prof ( ie, none) that those captured pistols were used by IHH thugs to execute their own wounded to make Israel look bad. Try to prove THAT wrong.""

Bruce, even you can't be stupid enough to advance that as a credible theory. For a start, if the IDF had not used the guns on them how do you reckon the "IHH thugs" having any wounded to kill.

Had it been so the Israelis would have spread that abroad in complete justification of their actions within an hour of the incident. It would have been the second time that Manna from heaven saved them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

In GregF's (sick) brain, the people in the helicopter would have no desire to film the assult.

Is this supposed to make sense, or was it intended as gibberish?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

"the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis."

Yes bruce,

That's right.

The Mavi Marmara bringing Aid into Gaza is a direct parallel with Russian warships bringing Nuclear missiles to the carribbean at the height of the cold war ...

... But only in La-La-whoopsy-banana-land.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Except YOU have stated it is NOT paint- so it would not act that way.

Precisely. It's not paint from paintballs, so it's not behaving like paint from paintballs. If it was paint from paintballs, it would be behaving like paint from paintballs. It's not doing that. So it's not paint from paintballs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

Keith, I saw the unedited footage because I have good sources. And no, when I saw the red substance in the higher quality video, I thought of blood.

And I think Espen has just now vindicated pretty much everything I have said on the subject of the red substance that was dripping from the open hatch and his reaction to it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Hi Keith,

I wasn't expecting it so soon, but I've just had an e.mail back from Espen.

He had this to say to me.

"I wasn`t sure about the red fluid at the time, but as time went on we started seeing wounds that corresponded with the information we got that there was glass inside the paintball shots. I still don`t know for sure what the fluid was, and thanks to the Israeli refusal of an international investigation, I guess we will never have forensic evidence about it. But as I saw the wounds I`m leaning strongly towards blood. It seems to be too much of it to come from paintballs.

The laser-dot didn`t seem to correspond with paintball guns, so thats when we seriously started reconsidering. Off course, a little later i t became abundantly clear that there was live fire on board."

There you are.

Straight from the horses mouth.

So you can shut up now.

Bye everyone thats it from me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:06 PM

In GregF's (sick) brain, the people in the helicopter would have no desire to film the assult.

In the real world, that video has already been released by the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM

Confirming my post was me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM

In BB's brain [sic], many such idiocies are possible, Mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM

You are making a large leap- I use a red laser rangefined to determine distance in taking pictures- I guess I will be shot for having a machine gun.

Dear Lord, what a pity that Mudcat doesn't have a "cracking up laughing" smiley.

Yeah, sure, the IDF were boarding a ship, using laser sights to take photos. They're just misrepresented photographers, not soldiers at all. In a fire-fight situation, or what was soon to become a fire-fight situation (albeit one-sided), laser gun sights aren't used, so it must be for photographic range-finding.

Have you considered the many benefits of bridge ownership? I have a couple in this portfolio I could show you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

Lox,

" a machine guns lazer spotlight"

You are making a large leap- I use a red laser rangefined to determine distance in taking pictures- I guess I will be shot for having a machine gun.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM

Don T

"1. An act of piracy did take place in international waters, and had it been committed by any organisation other than the Israeli Defence Force, not one voice would have been raised in trying to defend the action."

The area those ships declared they were going to was under declared blockade- the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis.




"2. Those on board of the ship which was attacked by armed men, tried to defend against the incursion (as was their legal right), using only such weapons as came to hand. They were obviously not spoiling for a fight, or one might have expected them to be better armed."


You can't claim they were inspected for weapons, and then had those weapons when attacked- so, were they inspected before leaving port, or not?




"3. Of those defenders, eight died of multiple wounds, inflicted at short range, by nine millimetre sidearms, and one was shot in the head with a round commonly used in shotguns."

And seven IDF were wounded, one of whom is probably permanantly brain damaged. Tehy were trained military, enforcing a blockade- THAT should say something abotu the violence by the people on the ship.




"4. None of the attackers were killed. Even when the defenders managed to acquire handguns from them, these were discarded without being used."

a- so as long as someone does not kill, it is ok? Then CarolC has no protest about the other ships, since no-one died on them.

b- Prove that- I can claim with as much prof ( ie, none) that those captured pistols were used by IHH thugs to execute their own wounded to make Israel look bad. Try to prove THAT wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM

CarolC,

"When paintball paint impacts a person, it sticks to the person. That's what it does. There is no excess and it doesn't spray off. It sticks to people"

Except YOU have stated it is NOT paint- so it would not act that way.

You can't claim it MUST act like paint, but it is not.

The pattern as shown coulD be A NUMBER of other red fluids- blood, hydraulic fluid, dye, etc. THAT is what makes your statement "Since it does not act like paint, it MUST be blood." false. It MIGHT be blood- it might not- the spray pattern is not enough to determine that.