BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:47 AM

sorry...

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/index.html


Is there some reason that actually checking statements BEFORE blaming others that they are wrong is frowned upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:37 AM

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183


"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949


We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:35 AM

"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.

"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:30 AM

The second bomb that was fitted with a GAM guidance kit was the 2000 kg (4500 lb) class BLU-113/B "bunker buster" penetrator warhead, which had been developed on a "crash" basis for Operation Desert Storm in 1991 (for details, see GBU-28/B Paveway III). The GAM-equipped BLU-113/B, also known as "GAM-113", was designated GBU-37/B. The first drop of a GBU-37/B from a B-2 occurred in May 1997, and it's possible that weapons of this type were operationally used in Afghanistan in 2001 (but reports are conflicting). The GBU-37/B is replaced by the GBU-28C/B, a development of the GBU-28/B laser-guided bomb with an improved warhead and additional GPS/INS guidance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

Let me see...

Bobert makes a fales statement.

I correct him

"Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

.......
BTW, bunker busters are presently made with TNT and surplus 8" cannon barrels. Easy enough to find out, if one wants to know the truth. "



Bobert repeats falsehood:

" Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

.....
So these junkers are being made in Iran??? And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"




I correct Bobert a second time:

"
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

Bobert,

"And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"


Not nuclear- stop your lies! "




Bobert calls me a liar:

".
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Stop your lies, BB... "





So, if one tells a lie repeatedly, but Bobert wants it to be true, it is true.

And repeating the truth makes one a liar, when Bobert disagrees with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM

"Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs" Bobert lie they ARE NOT nuclear.


Modern

During Operation Desert Storm (1991) there was a need for deep penetration bomb similar to the British weapons of World War II, but none of the NATO air forces had such a weapon, though the RAF possesses several of Barnes Wallis' bombs as museum pieces. As a stop-gap, some were developed rapidly over a period of 28 days, using old 8 inch (203 mm) artillery barrels as casings. These bombs weighed over two tons but carried only 647 lb of high explosive. They were laser-guided and were designated "Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28)", and worked very effectively.

More recently the US has developed a series of custom made bombs to penetrate hardened or deeply buried structures:

Depth of Penetration Weapon Systems
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 1.8 m (6 ft) BLU-109 Penetrator GBU-10, GBU-15, GBU-24, GBU-27, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 3.4 m (11 ft) BLU-116 Advanced Unitary Penetrator (AUP) GBU-15, GBU-24, GBU-27, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 3.4 m (11 ft) BLU-118/B Thermobaric Warhead GBU-15, GBU-24, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: more than 6 m (20 ft) BLU-113 Super Penetrator GBU-28, GBU-37


[edit] Fusing
The traditional fuse is the same as a classic armor-piercing bomb: a combination of timer and a sturdy dynamic propeller on the rear of the bomb. The fuse is armed when the bomb is released, and detonates when the propeller stops turning and the timer has expired.

Modern bunker busters may use the traditional fuse, but some also include a microphone and micro controller. The microphone listens, and the micro controller counts floors until the bomb breaks through the desired numbers of floors.


[edit] Missiles

A guided bomb strikes its target in a weapons testThe extra speed provided by a rocket motor enables greater penetration of a missile-mounted bunker buster warhead. To reach maximum penetration (Impact depth), the warhead may consist of a high density projectile only. Such a warhead carries more energy than a warhead with chemical explosives (kinetic energy of a projectile at hypervelocity).


[edit] Halts in production
The McAlester, Oklahoma production plant for the U.S. Military halted the production of 2,000 pound (900 kg) bunker buster bombs on two occasions. The first, on February 8, 2005, revealed that 17 employees who made the weapons had low blood oxygen levels because of their exposure to trinitrotoluene (TNT). Later in August, 34 workers were also found to be anemic. Production restarted on January 1, 2005 after a new ventilation system was installed, but halted again on March 2 of the same year when blood tests confirmed continued adverse effects to employee health from TNT exposure. [2]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Stop your lies, BB...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:06 AM

Ifor,

"The expulsion of refugees from their home? Tick ! Around 750000 Palestinians from their homes and land in the Nakba of 1948.They have never ben allowed to return .Some of these are now being terrorised in Gaza ."

Factual correction: 640,000 by ARAB figures. And I note you do not mention the 820,000 Arab JEWS driven from their homes?

Or the many Arab Moslims who stayed in Israel?

How many Jews are there in Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

Bobert,

"And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"


Not nuclear- stop your lies!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:11 AM

If the elected government is "the murderous Hamas regime" then it surely is an apprentice one.

Its master must be the Israeli regime next door which has murdered tens of thousands over the past few decades.

Almost all the atrocities and destruction we have seen happen in Gaza have been done by Israel in the recent or fairly recent past.

The mass bombing with shells,missiles and huge bombs? Tick! Done it before in Lebanon 2006 and 1982.

The slaughtering of defenceless refugees in their camps?Tick! Thousands murdered under the direction of that old killer Ariel Sharon in Sabra and Shatilla [Beirut ] in 1982.

The bombing of refugees in United Nations facilities ? Tick.The Israeli airforce killed almost a hundred Palestinian women and children at Qana in 2006.

The expulsion of refugees from their home? Tick ! Around 750000 Palestinians from their homes and land in the Nakba of 1948.They have never ben allowed to return .Some of these are now being terrorised in Gaza .

The destruction of Universities,clinics and hospitals?Tick!The Israeli bombing of Lebanon's infrastructure in 2006 killed and mutilated thousandsof Lebanese civilians.

The use of assassination squads on the West Bank in recent years is a reminder that the Zionists came to power having hung two British soldiers on wire hooks to remind the British to get out of Palestine. The present Foreign Minister's father was a member of the terrorist Stern Gang that did it share of the killing back in 1948.

The list goes on but Israel can accurately be described as a murderous regime that specialises in the mass murder , humiliation and intimidation of the Palestinian people.

However,as it wades through a river of gore in Gaza things are going wrong for the killing machine.

As the Jewish socialist writer Isaac Deutscher wrote about Israel warned towards the end of his life in the late 1960s
"You have become the Prussians of the Middle East.Be careful you may triumph yourself to death">
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 12:12 AM

The more the glorification of the murderous Hamas regime and their ilk, the less of a reason Israel has to go after them full steam, dressed as civilians as they are, unmindful of Geneva as they (Hamas) are, and fighting from the ranks of civilian sites as they are.

All the complaints about what Israel should or shouldn't do now doesn't do any good to solving the situation they find themselves in. I doubt that Israel has lost any friends among those who perceive it is an existential threat from a murderous regime (Hitler in rags was still Hitler, or do you shed a tear during the Bunker scene?).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

BBRuce - "Since the UN promised ( 2006 Lebanon ceasefire terms) that Hezboallah would NOT be rearmed, and it was ( since it seems UN Ceasefires only apply to Israeli actions, not others)"

Erm, more like NO UN resolutions are being enforced against ANYONE (apart from Iraq)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:59 PM

BBRuce, I kinda guessed you'd pick me up on the use of the term 'nation' - I put my hands up , of course. But nations aside my point was that the Israelis aren't the only ones to warn they were going to blow something up in advance. Course this doesn't make it alright either. Looks nice, but could be done for several reasons, or mixture of same:

Looks good from PR point of view. In later years the IRA wanted to avoid civilian casualties as they look bad and don't help the cause. Blowing up property can be nearly as effective: in the 90s the IRA switched to economic targets as they realised the UK could always find plenty more cannon fodder while hurting them in the pocket really hurt them. After Canary Wharf was blown up a number of leading financial institutions threatened to quit and go elsewhere if security weren't guaranteed. And of course the UK couldn't guarantee no bomb would ever get through as no one can guarantee that except in the movies.

In Gaza motives are a bit different maybe. No point trying to hurt Gazans in the pocket, they're as poor as church mice anyway. But blow up their houses and terrorize them and they'll have to leave, as they'll have nothing to come home to - in fact, no homes to come home to. Houses can easily be rebuilt if Israel decides to move back in, more of a nuisance to get rid of the natives. Plus it's a collective punishment as all Palestinians are being held to account, for the actions of Islamic Jihad or Hamas. Ok, they voted for Hamas, but a majority of Israeli citizens voted for the hawks in Knesset. Does that justify Hamas' indiscriminate rocket attacks? There has also been a crackdown on anti-war activists (Israeli arab or Jewish alike) in recent weeks in Israel. There are some people there who just don't want the violence to stop it seems, and not only on the Hamas side.

You say Hamas are doing wrong by their citizens. I suppose the Israelis are really doing their bit to alleviate their suffering as well, mainly by putting them out of their misery. Thats's really turning things on their head - blow them to hell and blame them for their own misfortune.

I think the problem many people have with this conflict is not that they support or condone Hamas but that it's so lopsided and out of all proportion. It was also planned for months and is not just some sort of knee jerk reaction to a handful of rockets in November. Maybe the Israeli army wanted to recover its image after its defeat in Lebanon, but this is just shooting ducks in a barrel. Let them go and take on the Chinese or Russians - who at least have armies as advanced and well-equipped if much bigger. Nor will it stop the violence or rockets. It'll slow them down for a bit but it'll leave a sea of resentment and desperation that guarantee another intifada or whatever, and more heavy-handed responses from Israel (maybe that's what they want).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

Yeah, Barry, I agree with everything you have said... Israel has lost this war in the hearts and minds of the international community...

Yeah, this may get some hardliners in Israel elected, much in the way that Bush used Iraq in the 2004 election, but this one is going to come back to haunt Israel and these hardliners...

I repeat: Israel has lost this war!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:12 PM

It's bad enough that the borders have been closed off so that the civilian population cannot flee the destruction raining down on them and now they can't flee their own housing when the walls are falling in on them. This is the same Nation whose people sought international justice & asylum from the hands of the Nazi's. They are now subjecting the people of Palestine, who are forced to live in the same getto situation, to the same treatment that brought such shame to a world that couldn't believe that such eveil could exist. The world is fast turning it's back on Israel & opening their eyes towards Palestine. Israel will bring it's own hell home.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:57 PM

From The Independent (London) for Wednesday 14th January:

At least three Palestinians in Gaza were shot dead yesterday after Israeli soldiers fired on a group of residents leaving their homes on orders from the military and waving white flags, according to testimony taken by the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem. The testimony was rejected by the military after what it said was a preliminary investigation....

...In Gaza, Munir Shafik al-Najar told B'Tselem that members of his extended family started trying to leave their homes after the Israeli army began demolishing buildings in the area of Kuza'a, close to the Israeli border with south-eastern Gaza. Mr Najar said the Israeli soldiers were using gunfire to signify that residents should leave, but then started shooting "indiscriminately".

He testified that his relative Rawhiya had stepped out of the family-owned building, one of whose walls had been destroyed by a bulldozer, expecting her family to follow, but she was shot. The military subsequently attacked another group escaping leaving two more of his relatives dead. The military said late last night that it had found the claim to be "without foundation".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

I ain't anti-Semetic either, Sorch... But over the last week I have become very anti-Israel...

I think that the UN needs to renogotiate the deal that gave this land that we call Israel to European Jews... It clearly ain't workin' for anyone in the region... Heck, why not just give these folks Utah or Wyoming 'casue there ain't but a half a dozen or so folks in either of them states (lol)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

Bobert, I THANK you for that post. I AGREE with you!!! The US is so scared of being seen as Anti Semitic that we won't do a damn thing to stop this horror. I am not a Christian, but I say unto you, suffer the little children.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

Depends what you mean by "calling for the destruction of the nation one is a citizen of". It's quite common for people quite legitimately to wish for that to happen, and frequently they are successful.

The Scottish National Party in Scotland, Plaid Cymru in Wales, and the SDLP and Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland all call for a constitutional settlement in which the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would cease to exist. It's not long since the countries Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, the German Democratic Republic and the USSR were wiped off the map.
......................

Justice is not determined by tit-for-tat. Ethnic cleansing is always criminal. Insofar as Jews were driven into exile in Israel by other countries, that was an injustice, and a peaceful settlement in the Middle East should seek to remedy it - but that does not mean that the exclusion of the exiled inhabitants of the country that is now Israel was or is legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

Listen, Dougie... Have you seen these rockets??? They were on TV last week and look like they were made by some junior high school student for his C- science experiement... I mean, they are junk... You could make a better rocket, Dougie...

So these junkers are being made in Iran??? And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???

What do ya'll think we are??? Friggin' morons, 'er what???

I mean, lets get real here... This entire war is being fought between a desperate population using stone aged weapons verses a USA supplies and trained military... That's why the score is 1000-10 in favor of the Israels and of those 10, 6 were from friendly fire so the real score is 1000-4...

This isn't even a war... This is like when rich guys go to those hunt places where the game is trucked in to be shot... You know, like when Dick Cheney went out and shot and killed 70 some doves that were raised to be shot up by some rich-ass fat-ass white dude...

That is reality...

And now we are being fed alot of BS about how we should be afraid of Iran???

Give me a break...

This is like the junk that the inspectors found in Iraq... Remember the model airplane they showed us in the mad-dash-days... It was a friggin' hobby store remote... But they told US that Saddam was gonna put ant-trax in it and fly it over the US and kill everyone...

Hardy-har-har...

I'm sick of being lied to and I'm sick of Israel tonight...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

As in the past, it is the Palestinians that have been asked to give & the Israeli's only to get & even then the Israeli's have not abided & have pushed for more. Again they will have more blood & will not stop. The US needs to stop it's backing & funding of Israel. Let Israel live on it's own in it's own neighborhood & see how they will then behave without their big stebrother, the US, to have their back. They might prove to then become a "good neighbor"? As it is I wouldn't want them in my backyard.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

Yes Doug & what will the Israeli's stop doing & what are they willing to give up?

BB, as for stockpiling cadavers & spilling buckets of blood, Israel shows that they'll consider the limitless suppy of Palestinians they kept & had under their feet & that they are willing to eraidicate the whole population just to prove their point. Then they can have Gaza, the West Bank 7 the rest of the OT to themselves. May their seed fail in the desert sands.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM

Bobert (and other Hamas sympathizers):Do you believe it is unreasonable for Israel to insist that any cease-fire agreement MUST include guarantees that Hamas MUST stop firing rockets into Israeli neighborhoods and Hamas must agree to cease importing Syrian and Iranian weapons into Gaza?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

Wrong, Barry.

"Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises -- do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood that will soothe the peculiar itch for parity that afflicts them. Nor do they specify the morally permissible number of casualties to end the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.

This demand for "proportionality" can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties, vis-à-vis a trifling price paid by "our boys." Israel is the only country expected to behave differently and, in fact, it does; I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory. Of course, in this it behaves asymmetrically, because the Hamas terrorists, forever eager to cause the greatest damage possible, never announce when or where they will launch their rockets against Israel's civilian population."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:19 PM

"constant rocket attacks upon innocent Israeli civilians"

So far 10 Israeli soldiers have died along with 3 civilians killed by rocket fire.

well over 900 Palestinians have died in this latest conflit & almost 4500 wounded, most of these are women & children

Where do you get off asking for that kind of unbalanced peace & security?


"Israel has stated this will end when Hamas stops firing rockets, and the world prevents Hamas from rearming"

Bullshit! Hamas has agreed to stop if Israel will pull out of Gaza & open the border.
Israel has not agreed to anything until it has leveled Gaza!


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

ifor,

IMHO NO-ONE likes the present carnage in Gaza, but some of us have decided that it is preferable to the constant rocket attacks upon innocent Israeli civilians ( that neither you nor the UN, nor any of those nations protesting Israel's actions ever even commented upon) for years upon end.

Israel has stated this will end when Hamas stops firing rockets, and the world prevents Hamas from rearming.

Since the UN promised ( 2006 Lebanon ceasefire terms) that Hezboallah would NOT be rearmed, and it was ( since it seems UN Ceasefires only apply to Israeli actions, not others) there has to be a serious commitment to stopping Hamas from rearming.


Yet Hamas is still firing rockets at innocent civilians- and the UN is telling them to stop.

Egypt is telling them to stop.

Jordan is telling them to stop.

Iran and Syria ( the nations that violated the 2006 UN ceasefire to rearm Hezboallah) are the only ones NOT telling them to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

To beardedbruce
It might be that the Israeli Arabs simply abhor the carnage that has been unleashed in the slaughterhouse of Gaza by the Israeli military.

I know we are all here on Mudcat because of our love of folk music but over there in Gaza the folk are being maimed and murdered by the thousands.

I should have added that the leader of one of those ultra nationalist parties Avigdor Lieberman has apparently called for his government to adopt the "Japanese solution "in Gaza referring to the dropping of the Hiroshima bomb.

His party is thought to come fourth in next month's election!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

McGrath,

When the UN recognised the existence of Israel it did not recognise the right of one set of inhabitants to drive out another set of inhabitants.

Yet that is what the Arab League attempted. Israel HAS an Arab population- Jordan does not have a Jewish population. Yet Jordan had control of the West Bank from 1948 until 1967- Please tell me where the Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank are????


Could they be amoung the 820,000 Jews from Arab nations that Israel resettled?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

Nickhere,

That was from a posted article, not my own words,

I am glad to know that the IRA was a nation, or the duly elected government of one.


ifor, you miss the point: Calling for the destruction of the nation one is a citizen of is usually defined as "treason" and often loses one the right to be an organized political party. Since the other "Arab" parties still exist, and continue to have seats in the Knesset, you need something more to make your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST, guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:27 PM

"Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are oppsed to the attack on Gaza".

C Ham says the statement is a lie ...but the fact is it is true.

The full story can be read on the BBC News website but essentially both Balad and the UAL ,two democratic parties have been barred from next month's elections to the Israeli Knesset.

The move to ban both these Arab parties was led by two ultra nationalist Israeli parties called the National Union and Israel Beitein.These parties certainly did not want representatives from the Israeli Arab electorate standing in the Knesset next month and charging the state of Israel with war crimes in front of the world's cameras.

Both Israeli Arab parties have called for Israel to become a proper functioning democracy with full democratic rights for all its citizens but this conflicts with the Zionist policy of a theocratic Israel.Hence the banning!

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in Israel and their political representatives are treated with a mixture of loathing and disdain.

It is true there have been several large Israeli Arab protests against the war...protest supported by anti war Israelis and of course the warcriminals directing Israel's slaughter in Gaza would be very angry at anti war protests coming from inside Israel itself. again, hence the banning.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM

"I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory"

Yer wrong BBruce, For 30 years the IRA nearly always telephoned warnings before setting off one of their bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Egypt pushes Hamas to accept truce
Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:11:50 PM
By SALAH NASRAWI

Egyptian mediators pushed the militant Palestinian Hamas group to accept a truce proposal for the embattled Gaza Strip in talks Tuesday, while the U.N. secretary-general headed to the region to join the multitrack diplomatic efforts for a cease-fire.

U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon has backed the Egyptian truce proposal to halt the fighting, now in its third week. Before leaving New York for the Egyptian capital on Tuesday, he urged Israel and Hamas to accept a U.N. cease-fire resolution and allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

"To both sides, I say: Just stop, now," Ban told a news conference Monday. "Too many people have died." He said Hamas militants who have been firing rockets into southern Israel "must stop, they must look to the future of the Palestinian people."

The U.N. Security Council on Tuesday gave its full support to Ban after he briefed the council behind closed doors ahead of his week-long trip. All 15 members gave their strong backing to the secretary-general's diplomatic mission.

Israel's point man to the cease-fire talks, Defense Ministry official Amos Gilad, is also slated to come to Cairo Thursday, Israeli Defense Ministry officials said Tuesday. Officials had initially said Gilad would travel Wednesday, then changed the day to Thursday. Gilad had put off the trip for days, saying the time was not yet ripe.

Defense officials say that depending on what happens in Cairo, Israel will decide to move closer to a cease-fire or whether to launch a new, even tougher stage of its offensive. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were discussing sensitive policy matters.

Ban won't be meeting Hamas officials and has no plans to go to Gaza during his trip, which will also include Jordan, Israel, the Palestinian-controlled West Bank, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Kuwait.

Tuesday's talks between Hamas and Egyptian officials in Cairo were the latest in intensive diplomatic efforts. In Damascus, the Turkish prime minister's top foreign policy adviser, Ahmet Davutoglu, met for the third time in two days with Hamas' exiled political leader, Khaled Mashaal, about truce proposals.

But so far, the push has yielded little public progress. A Palestinian official close to Hamas said the previous round of Egypt-Hamas talks on Sunday were "stormy."

During that session, Egypt's top mediator, intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, told Hamas to accept Egypt's truce proposal without amendments or else Hamas will be considered responsible for Israel's continuing offensive in Gaza, the Palestinian official said, speaking on condition of anonymity for discussing the closed-door talks.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-World-News\20090113\ML-Mideast-Diplomacy.xml&cat=world&subcat=&pageid=1

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM

When the UN recognised the existence of Israel it did not recognise the right of one set of inhabitants to exclude to another set of inhabitants who had fled as refugees in the war. It would have been impossible to recognise such a breach of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are opposed to the attack on Gaza.

Like most everything else Guest Ifor says, that is a lie.

According the Israel Central Elections Committee report, the Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al parties were disqualified because they specifically "call for armed conflict against Israel."

Other Arab parties that do not make such a call have not been disqualified.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST IFOR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM

There are voices in Israel and amongst the wider Jewish community which have spoken out and demonstrated against the atrocities being committed by the IDF in Gaza.

Are these Jewish anti war people anti semitic or is that a convenient accusation against those who are opposed to the mass slaughter of civilians in Gaza in particular ,and the disastrous policies of the Israeli State against the Palestinians in general?

Guest Hugo above quotes the Israeli writer Uri Avnery of describing the Israeli warleader as having a "sociopathic disorder" and from the sight of those monster bombs exploding in Gaza today it must be impossible to disagree with that description.

Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were concentration camps survivors, is equally scathing about the horrors being inflicted by the Israeli leaders against the residents of Gaza.

Those huge bombs must have killed or maimed many civilians .They looked to have the power of a small nuclear bomb! Anyone who ordered their use in a overcrowded dying city must be a sick war criminal.


It is clear that a bunch of killers are now at the helm of the Israeli state . They have unleashed death and destruction on an industrial scale against the Palestinians...this after throttling the city for the past two years.

"..Israel has not the slightest interest in causing casualties" writes one supporter of Israel .

When are you going to stop excusing these psychokillers who are murdering and maiming by the hundreds in Gaza?

Some 4000 people,overwhelmingly civilian and including many children have been maimed or broken by these bombs and shells and there is the "stench" that is spreading from Gaza.... and Tel Aviv!


ifor
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM

I was minded to put that slightly differently.

Gazans can fight - and die.
Or they can stop fighting, and with no water, no imports, no exports, no infrastructure, no fishing rights, and no way out, they can starve.

They are in a non-survivable ghetto.

Not much of a choice is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/carlos_alberto_montaner/2009/01/gazas_true_disproportion.html


......

Israelis are being accused of suffering too few casualties in their confrontation with the Hamas terrorists. Those who reason thus usually speak the words "disproportion" or "asymmetry" in an indignant tone. While at this writing close to a thousand Arab Palestinians have died or been wounded as a result of the bombings, the Israeli losses amount to just over a dozen.

Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises -- do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood that will soothe the peculiar itch for parity that afflicts them. Nor do they specify the morally permissible number of casualties to end the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.

This demand for "proportionality" can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties, vis-à-vis a trifling price paid by "our boys." Israel is the only country expected to behave differently and, in fact, it does; I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory. Of course, in this it behaves asymmetrically, because the Hamas terrorists, forever eager to cause the greatest damage possible, never announce when or where they will launch their rockets against Israel's civilian population.

In turn, Israel has not the slightest interest in causing casualties. All it wants is to stop Hamas' attacks the only way it can: by eliminating the terrorists and destroying their arsenals. There's no other way to deal with them. Hamas is not a political organization with which agreements can be reached, but a fanatical gang intent on wiping Israel off the map. To achieve this objective, its members are even willing to turn their own children into human bombs, just to kill the hated Jews.

Here's another very important asymmetry. The Jews build underground shelters in all houses near the border; they close the schools and hide the children at the least sign of danger; they treat the death of a single soldier as a national tragedy; they do everything possible to rescue their prisoners, and protect the civilian population from the consequences of war. In contrast, the authorities in Gaza, drunk with violence, fire their machine guns irresponsibly into the air to express joy or grief (causing numerous injuries), do not hesitate to install their headquarters or hide their guns in schools, mosques or hospitals, use human shields to protect themselves, turn to suicidal terrorists and reward the families of such "martyrs" with money.

.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest Ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM

The website "counterpunch" carries a very pertinent aand insightful article by the american jewish writer Norman Finkelstein entitled" The Facts About Hamas and the War on Gaza".
He makes a detailed argument that time and time again it is Israel ,backed up by the USA which has blocked a settlement of the Israeli/Palestine crisis.
Well worth reading.
Finkelstein is a hated figure among Zionists and was denied entry to Israel when he tried to enter the country a few months ago.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST HUGO
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:47 AM

I have just been reading an article by Israeli writer Uri Avnery which says essentially that the Israeli war leader Ehud Barack had a "socipthic disorder" and was displaying a sort of "moral insanity" in his ordering of the slaughter at Gaza.

In view of the terrible atrocities being committed by the Israeli Defence Force in the killing of hundreds and the wounding of thousands I would agree with Uri's assessment of Barack.

In addition the foreign minister is the daughter of two members of the terrorist Stern gang and although I know people can rise above their family circumstances it is clear she has learnt to hate the Paelestinians in a most racist way.

Are they all derranged?
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

ANOTHER WAR CRIME
Gazan medics have reported finding the body of a 5 month baby girl who had been run over by a 70 tonne Israeli tank. There was no sign of her mother.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

Sorry, still looking for all those posts about the horror of suicide bombers killing civilians, Darfur, Mumbai, etc from ifor and Nickhere....


Strange lack, even though the dead civilians are orders of magnitude greater.

I guess when Arab Moslims kill civilians there is no need to comment.


10 more dead civilians in Bagdad... Suicide bomber, so we can ignore them.





BTW, bunker busters are presently made with TNT and surplus 8" cannon barrels. Easy enough to find out, if one wants to know the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM

ARE THEY HAVING US ON?
Somebody in the Israeli Defence Force must be having us all on!

The Israeli military has spent three weeks blowing up women and children and many other innocent casualties.

The shells,bombs and high velocity round have decapitated ,dismembered and crushed hundreds and thousands of totally innocent babies,infants,young children and teenagers not forgetting young mothers and the elderly. The Israelis ,of course, regard any able bodied male over the age of about 14 as fair game for the shoot.The Israeli military has also been waging chemical warfare and there are many who have suffered hideous burns from the phospherous shells and bombs.

After this mass maiming and killing, the Israelis have very kindly announced it is considering setting up a field hospital in Gaza. I am sure the survivors and the wounded will be very grateful and will make their appreciation known to the Israeli medics and their guards if and when the field hospial is set up!


Oh, and Christian Aid announced today that the Israelis have destroyed a primary health care clinic run by a coalition of christian churches in the city.Luckily, the clinic was empty because again, very kindly, the Israeli military warned the clinic staff and patients to get out in advance of the shelling.

The clinic, which included a dispensary, dealt mainly with moms and their babies and had worked to ensure that despite the economic blockade palestinian mothers would have some basic healthcare for themselves and their children.It was an EEC funded facility.

I wonder how the Israeli are going to look after the housing,health and basic survival needs of the survivors if and when they take over the city which now looks like the chechen capital of Grozny.

4000 maimed palestinians will need medical care for a very long time and it may be that the Israelis will need more than a field hospial and a couple of MASH type tents to do that job.

It is far more likely that having smashed up the city the Israeli will leave firing their missiles behind them as they pull out.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:17 AM

Let us now look at a small modification to Bobert's statement:


Hamas needs to rethink it's positions... If not, then the folks there would be better served living somewhere else where they could get along with their neighbors... I'm sure that we here in the US would welcome a good portion of Gaza's population and I'm sure that Europe would as well...



If you think not, then please think why not: Bobert is willing to have Israeli's as neighbors, from the original comment.

I can't imagine why he would object to neihbors who launched rockets at his property...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Jan 12, 2009 8:47 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 21:41
Hamas raids aid trucks, sells supplies
By YAAKOV KATZ AND JPOST.COM STAFF

Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

Slideshow: Gaza op, Day 17 The IDF said that since terminal activity is coordinated with UNRWA and the Red Cross, Israel could do nothing to prevent such raids, Israel Radio reported.

Between 10 a.m. to 1 p.m., the army had ceased all military activity in Gaza and once again established a "humanitarian corridor" to help facilitate the transfer of the supplies.

The Kerem Shalom and Karni crossings had been opened to allow in the aid trucks.

Security officials at Kerem Shalom thwarted an attempt to smuggle electrical goods, disguised as humanitarian supplies, into Gaza. The electrical goods included computers, infra-red cameras, ovens, microwaves and other electronic equipment.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak has forbidden the entry of electronics to Gaza since the goods do not fall under the category of humanitarian aid. Some electronic equipment has been let in as per an official Palestinian request, such as equipment used to repair the damaged electrical grid in Gaza.

Meanwhile, Israel is considering establishing a field hospital in the Gaza Strip to treat Palestinian civilians wounded in fighting between the IDF and Hamas.

The plan would be to establish the field hospital outside the Gaza Strip, but the IDF is also considering the possibility of erecting the hospital inside the Palestinian territory so it will be more accessible to the Palestinian population. It would be run by the IDF Medical Corps.

Also Monday, in an effort to promote Israeli humanitarian efforts in the Gaza Strip, the Defense Ministry launched a new Web site that provides a live video feed of the Kerem Shalom cargo crossing, through which international organizations have been transferring basic foods and medical supplies to Gaza.

The footage can be viewed at: http://www.mod.gov.il/pages/general/Maavar-Kerem-Shalom.asp. Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, the IDF has facilitated the transfer of close to 900 trucks into the Gaza Strip with over 20,000 tons of basic foods and medical supplies.

According to an army estimate on Monday, slightly over 900 Palestinians have been killed since Operation Cast Lead began in December 2008. Based on intelligence and information obtained by the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration, the IDF has determined that at least 400 of those killed are known Hamas operatives. The IDF further believes that among the remaining 500, a significant number are also Hamas operatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

If the UN declared that all right handed people would be left handed would that make it so, Dougie??? I mean, lets get real here...

Yes, I fully understand how Israel was created and can honestly say that until just recently nave always supported it's right to exist...

Does this mean I support Hamas??? No, it doesn't... It means that ***this*** Israel has lost my support and I don't see how ***this*** Israel can co-"exist" with it's neighbors... Even if Israel kills every last Hamas if ***this*** Israel continues it's policies toward Palestians another Hamas will grow in it's place...

But beyond this, I also fault the Bush administrations blanket support of thses anti-human policies... You just can't starve or bully yer neighbors and expect them to like you...

Israel needs to rethink it's positions... If not, then the folks there would be better served living somewhere else where they could get along with their neighbors... I'm sure that we here in the US would welcome a good portion of Israel's population and I'm sure that Europe would as well...

Bizarre??? Well, yeah... But no less bizarre than what we are witnessing and the sad part about it is that Israel's actions will not make it safer, but less safe...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:35 AM

Actually, DougR, Israel as a concept was determined to exist as part of the treaties that ended of WW I- You know, the same treaties that gave Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan ( as the Palsetinian Arab Homeland) and other nations the "right" to exist.

So, if Bobert questions the right of Israel, he is saying that the entire region is now up for grabs.

If he is just saying that Israel's actions have forfeited it's right to exist, then perhaps he should look at the actions of others in that region, from 1948 to present, and tell us who he would allow the right of existance to? Specific countries, now...

Hell, Lets look at the entire world- Who would have the right to exist by Bobert's standards?



Maybe Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:17 AM

"Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist..."

With all your DOCUMENTED false claims, Have YOU earned the right to exist???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:22 AM

Bobert: If memory serves, Israel was awarded the right to exist by that vaunted institution so many of you look to to solve the world's problems, ...the UN in about 1947 or 48. Some in the Muslim community did not then, and never will accept the UN's declaration. The fact that some of you side with Hamas, IMO, is shameful.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:13 AM

How appropriate that culture in Israel is being flattened at the same time as apartment blocks in Gaza are being pulverised.

The news has emerged that the America-Israel Foundation which supports Culture and the Arts in Israel is about to go out of business as a result of the 50 billion dollar Bernard Madoff financial scandal which has been unfolding in New York during the past month.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 11:50 PM

Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are opposed to the attack on Gaza.

Israeli arabs [actually they are Palestinian by another name ] comprise some 20 % of the population of Israel and are widely regarded as second class citizens.

Their already difficult place in the theocratic state odf Israel is going to become ever more precarious as the right wing parties become more reactionary in the coming months and years.

The claim that Israel is somehow a functioning democracy looks a little hollow in the light of the banning and in the way this substantial and growing arab israeli population is treated by its political masters.
ifor