BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

"This is not about throwing Arabs and their loved one's out of their homes."   But that is precisely what happened, and continues to happen.
..........................

Here is a piece worth reading, from Haaretz last week - "In its hour of need, Israel was let down by Diaspora":

"...If only we had some real friends, friends we could trust implicitly, who could point out the error of our ways. This could be the shining moment of the Jewish Diaspora. They love us, but they also see things from another perspective. We need a strong, unified voice from the Jewish leadership in the United States and Europe telling Israelis enough is enough, you are hurtling down the slippery slope of pariahdom and causing untold damage to yourselves and us. Lift your heads above the ramparts and see that the world has moved on."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM

good one pdq.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

...from the website of Rabbi Nesenoff who did the interview with Helen Thomas:

"From 1517 to 1917 Turkey controlled the areas we know as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Israel. During World War I Turkey supported Germany. When Germany lost the war, Lebanon and Syria was assigned to France... and the area we know as Jordan and Israel was mandated to Great Britain.

The Jews of numerous Arab countries had already begun mass immigration into that area in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria. This Jewish dangerous and painstaking effort to turn uninhabitable marsh and malaria and mire into livable property was actually becoming successful. The Jewish revitalization of the land was paying off and then and only then attracted a large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions than the Arab countries they were living in.

In 1923, the British divided this area and gave 75% of the land to the Arabs and 25% to the Jews. The Arabs launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jews in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936 to 1939 'Arab Revolt.' The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.

The Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs, thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun, led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the problem over to the United Nations.

The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% that the Jews were living in, into a Jewish State and a second Palestinian State. The Jews accepted the UN plan. The Arab Palestinians rejected it. The Arabs still wanted ALL of the land both east AND west of the Jordan River.

On May 14, 1948 the Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became 'Israelis.' On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared 'ISRAEL' were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arabs who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish soldiers or Jewish thugs…. But because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arabs are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight.

The remaining 30% either saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or they were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the, nineteen month war, ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of 'Palestinian Arab refugees.'

In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of that area, and it's called Jordan, or in reality, their ARAB Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for 'Palestine' continues through wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon Israeli citizens.

This is not about the Holocaust or the 1940s. This is not about Kings Saul, David or Solomon. This is not about throwing Arabs and their loved one's out of their homes. This is not about ancient times.

This is about the creation of a modern country in modern times in a legitimate manner. This is about the blossoming of a fruit that was planted in swamps and marshes and malaria.

This isn't about 70 BCE or 70 AD. This is about 1517, 1880, 1917, 1923, 1936,1939, 1947, and 1948."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

Well we certainly seem to have moved on from the Flotilla debate ...

another red herring perhaps to avoid the point.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Oh joy

Does this mean we're going to argue what genetically is a true Mexican, like you guys did about what is a true Jew?

Lunacy.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Mexico?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

I can imagine that that might be well acceptable enough to Palestinians, provided that the deal included a right of return to their homes for the exiles and refugees. It would of course mean an abandonment of the notion of a permanent Jewish majority in the state, whatever it was called.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:37 PM

There are already two current threads that discuss the right (or lack thereof) of Mexicans moving, by the millions, into somebody else's country.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

"Whatever you want to think."

Where do Mexicans come from?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:23 PM

I am waiting to hear why Israel should not return to the last borders taht Arab nations agreed to- in 1923 when the Arab Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan took 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory away from the Jewish Homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM

"Mexicans never relocated anyplace else, America is their homeland and always has been. "


Whatever you want to think.


But I don't have to agree with yu.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM

Hang on a sec ...

Can I juat clarify ...

... is this question of Helen Thomas relevant to this thread?

Does it justify the IDF's behaviour on the Mavi Marmara?

... just wondering as it appears to have been jumped on with some zeal - presumably either as a distraction from the point or just becausde it is something that BB and Bobad can actually say something about.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM

"They are as much descended from the "Real Israelis" as the Mexicans"

Come off it man, that's sheer tosh! And I'm like an ancient Gaelic Druid because I have a bit of Irish in me - think I'll seize back Free Derry (just let me get my DNA tests finished up, must be sure about my rightful heritage first of course)! Mexicans never relocated anyplace else, America is their homeland and always has been.
But Like Rig say's that's another story for another day...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

"Mexicans are like descended from the real Americans so it's their land in the first place "


You mean like the Jews, that were driven out of ancient Israel, moved through Spain, England, Germany, and Poland, and then returned to Israel?


They are as much descended from the "Real Israelis" as the Mexicans are of the indians who lived here before the Europeans- though they drove out earlier tribes.

Just askk the Terra del Fuagans ( pardon spelling), or the tribes that used to be where the later tribes settled.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:10 PM

Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM

PS I didn't actually say I agreed with her comment, I observed how she had been misquoted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:04 PM

Or something..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM

Well of course "the Blacks" were err like slaves forced there in the first place against their will as err slaves to the whites. And the Mexicans are like descended from the real Americans so it's their land in the first place (except the whites decided to carve it up when they stole it).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM

And of course you agree that all those Mexicans should be packed up and sent South.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM

So when the Klan says that Blacks should go back to Africa, you'll not complain???

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:48 PM

"Isn't it awful what happened to Helen Thomas?"

I don't know this lady? But I did quickly do a YouTube search for the comment she made.. Yes, it was a strongly phrased opinion, but what I found most telling was the amount of YouTube versions which misquoted her as saying simply:
"The Jews should go back to Germany"
rather than what she actually said which was:
"Israel [should] get out of Palestine".

In response to a further question about where "they" (interesting that the interviewer shifted so immediately and seamlessly in his questioning from (the state of) "Israel" to "they" (ie: Jewish people) - this echoes some of the points raised here regarding the common conflation of all Jewish *people* with the *state* of Israel and vice versa) should leave Palestine for and return to, she replied "Poland and Germany and America and everywhere else" [that they had relocated to Palestine from]. A controversial opinion yes, but not simply a brute "The Jews should go back to Germany", as it has been characterised.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM

The flotilla was made up of many more nationalities than just turks.

Though of course it is highly reasonable to say that if the turks have a bad human rights record then its fine for the IDF to murder people.

As for the evidence of the IDF firing first, go back and watch the videos and read the posts again.

Testimony from the ships company says that they were subject to covering fire before the troops landed.

This is corroborated by the live news reports in which the anchors are reporting injured passengers, while at the same time speculating that troops may be about to be deployed from the visible helicopters above.

Troops are then seem abseiling down and the anchor confirms that they have started to board.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM

"I suggest you made this up yourself"
The artical appeared as a comment column in the Irish Times around last Wednesday - I may well have misread it but I certainly didn't make it up - I've never seen the point of reducing arguments to that level; and certainly not quoting your source when doing so.
If I am mistaken I apologise unreservedly.
My point on the Israelis refusing to be part of an independant investigation into this or any other incident they have been involved in - if they have nothing to hide, why not?
"Yep, them Turks is just a bunch of peace-loving sweethearts..."
I am quite aware of the Turkish human rights record; I reckon you couldn't squeeze a credit card between their and that of the Israeli's - a matching pair, I'd say. I am also aware that up to now they have been one of Israel's few supporters, and anything they say has to be viewed in that light. I can't recall Turkey coming out in suport of humanitarian aid lately.
"Gaza flotilla"
Or "Israili piracy" maybe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM

"The images I posted a link to were new images, published just yesterday."

Yes, however I saw them before you did and also saw the rest of the same photo set in which the same soldiers, after having been removed from the affray then had their wounds treated.

Carol has posted these same photos already in this thread.

If you ask her nicely she may redirect you to the source wher these photos can be viewed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:05 PM

absolutely terrible.

.

.

goodbye Helen.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

Israel suffers from antiquated thinking which informs their paranoia. First, they are concerned about what "gentiles" think. Second, the don't give a damn what "gentiles" think.
It's an unresolved conflict.

Israel is turning into a theocracy (if they aren't already).

The solution is clear. A Zionist State might be compared to a Christian State. In the long run, unsustainable. However, power sharing between Israeli citizens both Jewish and Arab (Palestinian) is the only workable answer. There is no reason for Israeli Jews to give up their religion while sharing political power with Israeli Palestinians.

Extremist Jewish, Muslim and Christian groups that attempt to force their religion on a political level are the problem.

This is why the Separation of Church and State is the best model.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

After so many contributions, I think it would be fare to change the title of the thread into something non so one-sided. Something like "Gaza flotilla", or something like that...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:48 PM

Yep, them Turks is just a bunch of peace-loving sweethearts...

"History of the modern Turkish Republic is a history of repression of the Kurds. While it has allowed a degree of tolerance and democracy within Turkey for Turkish population it has shown an absolute intolerance towards the Kurdish question. Identifying oneself as a Kurd is still a crime in Turkey. If one says he/she is Kurdish it is implied that they say there are other ethnic groups in Turkey, it is implied that they want to separate from Turkey. They automatically become members of the PKK and so become 'terrorists'.

In June 2008, several Kurdish child singers were facing prison for singing Kurdish anthem at a function in the United States. Three of them aged 15 to 17 were tried in an adult court in Diyarbekir. They faced up to five years in jail if they were convicted.

Since the establishment of the modern Turkish Republic millions of Kurds have been deported or forced to migrate to Turkish towns and cities or Western Europe, tens of thousands have been killed, similar numbers have been arrested, imprisoned, tortured. Thousands of Kurdish villages have been destroyed. The Kurds have gone through cultural genocide in the hope of getting assimilated. Yet, the Kurdish problem in Turkey is bigger than ever."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM

Turkey ... now there is a country thae exhibits high standards on human rights.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

"An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. 'I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs,' he said. 'I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below …

'We knew they were peace activists. Though they wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance – we didn't expect this. Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury.'"

{I read several accounts of the autopsy reports and no person died of a single bullet to the back, or back of the head, execution style, as some claim. At least one person had a rear-entry wound, but had four more front-entry ones.}

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:00 PM

Not sure why you keep talking about the pre-67 boders- the Arab nations have NEVER agreed to them.

Still waiting on your answers to my post of

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM


I think we should also compare how the Israelis treat the occupied territories with how the Arabs treated them from 1948 to 1967.

And what ever happened to those non-Moslim communities on the West bak? I know that many families near where I grew up cam from the Christian town of Ramallah, and were driven out by the Moslims after the 1948 war. THOSE families had been there for hundreds of years, as had the Jewish communities in the Arab nations that were driven out.





Lets just give each person who was driven out a billion dollars- to be split amoung descendents in the cases where the original person has died:

Lets see- 640,000 Palestinain Arabs
          820,000 Arab Jews

that means that the Palestinian Moslims owe $180,000,000,000,000.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM

"The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists."

Guardian article last Friday

"Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back.

Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine."

The Times pointed out that the first commandoes to land had indeed been disarmed by the passengers

"A wounded Turkish passenger, Muhyittin Yildirim, said: "Some Israeli soldiers were rendered ineffective.
Our friends got their weapons.
If they had a bad intention, they would have used the weapons against the soldiers but they threw them to the sea."

- In fact no Israel soldier had bullet wounds.

From CNN

"Five of the men died with bullet wounds to the head, said Dr. Haluk Ince, the director of Istanbul's Medical Examination Institute, said Friday
In one case, Ince said, a gunshot victim had been shot at at extremely close range.
"From the analysis of the bullet distance on one of the bodies," Dr. Ince said, "the gun was fired between 2 and 14 centimeters' distance from the victim's head."


The United States-based progressive/liberal news site OpEdNews comments that CNN nevertheless omitted "the all-important fact that most of the victims were shot from behind was left out.
ABC had the same information on Thursday, again without mentioning the shots from behind.
In its article on Friday, the NY Times had yet to even name Dogan, the American victim, much less mention the bullets that hit him or how he was shot.
As of Sunday, the Times had still not reported the nature of the deadly shots fired."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

Right, Jim, I have just located the Irish Times acount of this, June 5. As I thought, it contains no reference whatever to anybody being shot in the back of the head by a single bullet. You claim this happend to four of the victims. I suggest you made this up yourself. If not, show us your source.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:29 AM

Let's see the quote from the Irish Times then.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:21 AM

Greg,
Reports from Turkey state categorically that four appear to have been executed in the manner I described - according to The Irish Times (fairly reliable IMO).
If it was a straightforward fight, why should the Israelis refuse an open, neutral enquiry?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

The images I posted a link to were new images, published just yesterday.
They were taken by the protestors and published in Turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

..........& at last 'Gorgeous 'George Galloway lends himself to the fray!

http://www.vivapalestina.org/home.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:01 AM

Jim Carroll says
"four of the dead were killed by a single bullet to the back of the head, suggesting they were executed".
Well, it might well suggest that, were it to be true. But I suspect, Jim, that you read the autopsy accounts as I did. Actually, only two out of the nine are reported to have been killed by a single bullet. One in the forehead(Cegdet Kiliclar), one in the front of the neck(Cengiz Songur). This was a shocking incident, there is no need to "improve" the evidence. Those who got a bullet in the back also got shot in the front, suggesting people spinning round when shot, possibly. Anyway, certainly no bullet in the back of the head execution type shooting. Unless, perhaps, you have heard some evidence about this? IN which case, let's hear it. I, by the way, am quoting the Guardian, quoting the autopsy reporty published by the Turkish authoprities. You tell us where you got your execution/back of the head stuff from.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:49 AM

"The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"
There is no evidence to substantiate this claim, nor will there be as Israel (once again) has refused an independent enquiry into the incident and has said that they will hold an internal one - and find themselves 'not guilty' no doubt, as they have in the past!!!
However, there is evidence that four of the dead were killed by a single bullet to the back of the head, suggesting they were executed.
We will probably never know, so leaving the field open to your making unsubstantiated claims such as this one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM

So.....let me get this straight,then ;
         Israel occupies Gaza. Israel builds settlements in Gaza,and encourages its citizens to move there and build communities. The rest of the world doesn't approve of this,and tells Israel so ,in no uncertain terms. So Israel forces (yes, FORCES) its own people out of their own homes and communities in Gaza, and hands the whole caboodle back to the Palestinians,on the understanding, of course,that the Palestinians don't abuse this arrangement by using it as a platform from which to bombard Israel with rockets helpfully supplied by numerous neighbouring ,extemely hostile,Arab , Muslim countries. Yes ??
    So ....the Palestinians swiftly renege on this agreement,and immediately commence a protracted and sustained bombardment of the nice,helpful,trusting Israelis. The rest of the world looks on, says "Tut Tut !", and,as usual, does fuck all. With me so far ?? Then another hostile country,whose population aren't even Arabs,declares its intention to build nuclear weapons and wipe the said Israel off the face of the Earth !! Faced ,for whatever reason,with mounting hostility and even international opprobrium, the Israelis,thoroughly pissed off with the endless flow of weapons and munitions to their enemies, via a labyrinth of tunnels between Egypt & Palestine,and by sea under cover of "Humanitarian Aid" convoys,decide to get tough, as it is obvious to them that,as usual,the rest of the world is going to do fuck all (again). So,after a confused,badly planned and probably too hastily executed anti-blockade-running military escapade,a number of "Activists", having publicly declared their wish to become "Martyrs" before even leaving port,are killed,bringing even more hand-wringing international opprobrium !
And that constitutes an "Atrocity", does it ??
         I thought that The Holocaust was an "atrocity", but I am afraid I cannot see any justification for using that word to describe the recent debacle (for such it was) off Israel / Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM

Well, I have read the thread fairly assiduously, and I still have not managed to spot the video evidence that purports to back up this assertion, that the defenders were being shot before the commandos came down the rope, as described by Lox, CarolC etc.
"He Abseiled onto the ship, backed up by a hail of bullets which came before he did so"

I appreciate a lot of people would love this to be true, but I can't myself find anything to suggest that is what actually happened. It may have done, it may not. But where is this evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM

Lox said it well. Read the thread guys. Don't just jump in here asking questions and making assertions without having read the thread.

John, I don't know what you would expect to prove with your question about US forces and Iraqi deaths. It seems to me you are making a lot of assumptions about my position on the Iraq war. Which, if you had ever bothered to read anything I've ever posted on that conflict, you would already know where I stand.

Keith - read the thread. You are 100 percent ignorant of all of the facts of the situation, which have already been posted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:26 AM

Unless they replaced his balaclava as they caringly dragged him down the stairs on his back, there are at least two soldiers.
If they were being cared for by their captors, they would be the first such lucky Israeli soldiers in the long history of this conflict.
Usually they are murdered. Their corpses may be kept for exchange value.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:44 AM

They must have chosen not to shoot to defend themselves.

How on earth can you assume that? Just because you are shooting people does not make you invulnerabale. There was fightionm when the Israeli commandos stormed the Mavi Marmara, and people tried to defend themsleves agaisnt teh attack. The bottom line is, nine people were killed on one side, and no one was killed ontehkther side.

The Israeli PR exercise has repeatedly said that the only violence that took place was on the Mavi Marmara. That is a lie, as witnesses have testified - the difference is, on the other ships the only violence came from the Istraeli attackers.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:53 AM

Where have you guys been?

If you took the time to read the thread, you would have seen that the following has already been answered.


1. "How many Iraquis for each US soldier Carol?"

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:09 PM

The ratio for the UN allies was atrocious, and I make it a point to protest the war crimes of the governments involved in those acts of aggression quite often.

2. "The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"

This is BS. The IDF attacked the ship. The people on board defended themselves.

To say anything else is to be deceitful to oneself and to others.

3. Keith, if you look back through the thread you will find the rest of the photos from that particular set which show the same soldier (singular) being treated by doctors on the ship after having been brought to them down that staircase.

He Abseiled onto the ship, backed up by a hail of bullets which came before he did so, and when he landed he was beaten down and had his gun taken off him.

Then, instead of being killed, he was taken to a safe cabin where his wounds were tended to.

If any 'mob' had wanted to kill him, it would have happened then.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:25 AM

These pictures were in a Turkish paper and show injured Israeli soldiers on the ship.
They must have chosen not to shoot to defend themselves.
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=2&rid=2

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:54 AM

And yet, more than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed, Ed. If we can do business with a genocidal terrorist state like Israel, then we can also do business with Hamas.

How many Iraquis for each US soldier Carol?

The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces, which none of the 'passengers' on other boats did. It would appear that they were more anti Israeli than pro Palestinian!

I sympathise with the desire to end this blockade, but as I said, it's not possible until both sides give a bit.
I don't live in a hole, but I am practical and pragmatic, I see things as they are, and not as I would like them to be.
So many idealists and romantics close their eyes to reality.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM

"If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home! "
"Come out into the open where we can kill you easier" - great idea John.
These were unarmed volunteers delivering relief supplies; the Israelis were a highly trained crack force belonging to an army that has more than proved its vicious readiness in killing unarmed opposition (including women and children btw).
These are the weapons found to have been used on the Mavi Mamara (according to the Sunday Times).
Those found on board ship: stun grenade, catapult, metal bar, knife, broken bottle.
Those in posession of the pirates: paintball gun, tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine gun, Glock handgun.
The "stroll down 5th Avenue" on board the Rachel Corrie was described thus:

"'THEY WERE LIKE HYENAS'
A FULL moon hung over the Mediterranean but somehow the Israeli Zodiac boats eluded its beams. "We couldn't see them until they were up close to us, They were like hyenas circling the boat," said Fintan Lane, a historian and author from Cork who was previously jailed in connection with anti-war protests at Shannon airport.
Lane was one of five Irish citizens on board Challenger One, an American boat, including crew members Shane Dillon from Dublin and Fiachra Ó Luain, a Donegal-based candidate in last year's European elections.
At first, Challenger One tried to outrun the Israeli boats but when the captain suspected they were about to be rammed he slowed the engines. Almost immediately, a stun grenade exploded on board. A second one landed beside Lane.
For a while, the activists impeded the boarding commandos by throwing furniture in front of them but they were soon overwhelmed. "This was a violent attack," Lane said. "They assaulted one of our lookouts. There was a Belgian girl who took a plastic bullet or some sort of missile in the face. She was bleeding from the nose. They wrestled a Palestinian woman with an Israeli passport to the ground. They got stuck into her, I could hear her screaming. : They took one girl to the front and hooded her."
The commandos confiscated phones, cameras and recording equipment. While Kate Geraghty, an Irish journalist, managed to conceal her footage of the raid, Ó Luain, who had been at the bow filming the events on the nearby Mavi Marmara, had his camera seized.
At Ashdod port.the activists linked arms and refused to disembark, saying they did not want to visit Israel. Lane was forcibly transferred on to the quayside where he was informed he would be charged with entering Israel illegally and that the penalty was deportation.
One by one, the other boats arrived ashore. Two Irish citizens of Libyan origin who live in Dublin, Al Mahdi Alharati and Isam Ben Ali, had been on the Greek-owned Sfendoni. "You have arrived in Israel," Ben Ali was informed. "There is no Israel," he replied. "There is Palestine." He told a press conference in Dublin on Friday that he was denied his regular medicine. Ben Ali signed a deportation order because he feared being singled out by the Israelis in jail. Alharati, who says he has diabetes and a heart condition, collapsed at Ben Gurion Airport and was sent to Turkey where he was admitted to intensive care.
Ó Luain insisted he wished to contest his deportation order in Israel's courts, and claimed he was assaulted by "between 15 and 20" uniformed minders. One allegedly threatened to kill him.
There are five Irish people on board the Rachel Corrie. They include Matread Maguire, a Nobel peace laureate from Belfast, Denis Halliday, an assistant secretary general at the United Nations, and Derek Graham, an electrician from Ballina. Graham and Maguire were arrested in the Mediterranean and jailed in Israel in July last year when they attempted to break the Gaza blockade on board the Spirit of Humanity."

Ed T
You fail to state your opinion on the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, so we can presume that you are in favour of it but lack the courage to say so openly - puts your position in context perfectly - thank you.
You also fail to give us any examples of anti-Semitism on this thread so we can also assume that you made it up and your accusation can be seen as a rather pathetic attempt to smear.

Can I unreservedly recommend as an overview of the Palestine conflict the prizewinning film documentary 'Occupation 101' - inspiring and at the same time harrowing. Available on DVD - all proceeds going to the attemps to deliver relief to Gaza.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 02:05 AM

Autopsies reveal aid activists shot from behind

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:21 AM

Oops. I didn't mean to post that twice. I meant to put this one in that last post. More on the Jewish flotilla...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3899915,00.html