BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

Sure.

It is all crime.

But one of the crimes is currently ongoing and we can do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 03:43 PM

Rant and rave as much as you like - your description of the palestinians in Gaza as "invaders" is nothing short of delirious.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 03:33 PM

"But I do not see multi-generational residents of a land as invaders and I do see the forced removal of such people to create and preserve a theocracy as a war crime"

So do you agree that the 1948 forced removal of Jews from the West Bank was a war crime? How about the Christians?

Yes or no:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

Bruce I don't support that 1923 "treaty" at all. It was imposed by occupiers. Nor do I recognize the legality of anything the Turks did as occupiers.

Nor do I believe that you recognize any treaty or international ruling that has gone against zionism, unless it is convenient to your case.

But I do not see multi-generational residents of a land as invaders and I do see the forced removal of such people to create and preserve a theocracy as a war crime. If the Jews want to live on that land they ought to do it democratically with their neighbors, one person one vote. To engage in warfare to do otherwise is uncivilized.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:58 PM

The Jews that settled under the Ottomans in the West Band had the right to stay there- UNTIL the Arabs removed them- So, I presume you suipport the return of the West Bank to those Jews?

Look at the 1923 treaty- Are you prepared to open up Jordan to Jewish immigration? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:42 PM

"Since the Arab population is within the territory of the 1923 Mandate Palestine Jewish Homeland, they are invaders and Israel has no requirement to follow ANY laws."

Bruce, I think you need to look up the word "invade" in the dictionary.

To invade a place you have to come from somewhere else.

The Palestinians living in Gaza were all born within the borders of the mandate you apeak of, as were their parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc.

You are of course entitled to talk bollocks, but please at least make it look like you have a brain.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:41 PM

Bruce please clarify your claim that people who have lived on land for generations are invaders?

Also in all of the population and history of the planet earth it is only European Jews that have claimed a land which they have vacated for 2000 years. This is not bigotry. It is a fact.

Dropping WP on a populated area is in no sane definition of defense.

Israel seems to think that what the Nazi's did to their ancestors they should be able to do to the Arab speaking Palestinians.

Israel thinks that their own terrorism and evil is righteous because they are fulfilling God's word.

All of these ideas are insane and they are the largest cause of strife on the planet.

Israelis have what rights they have by force of arms. Force of arms paid for with my taxes.

Arab speaking Palestinians have no rights. Israel denies their rights by force of arms.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

Jim, YOU have constantly denied to Israel the right to defend themselves from attack- EVEN thought they have been invaded. Why is that?

Jews stopped standing in rows to be shot after WW II. Your wanting them to now will not make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

Jack is trying to ignore the fact that the 1923 borders, which created the Arab Homeland of Transjordan from 77% of the Mandate Palestine, and left the remainder ( 23% ) as the Jewish Homeland was the last acknowledged borders that the Arabs agreed to. In 1948, they attacked the new state of Israel ( who, being outnumbered and outgunned, MUST have been supported by Jim)and took the West Bank ( and removed the almost the entire Christian and Jewish population).

It seems that there are many here that give rights to Arabs that they deny to Israelis- and I see nothing besides relegious bigotry for that- as BOTH populations have roots in the region, and BOTH were given homelands under the treaty that ended WWI-. AND Israel has returned ALL Jordanian territory taken in war- the West Bank is part of Israel according to the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan.


If there is a problem with the 1923 borders, lets go back and negate them- and eliminate Lebenon, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan et al as well. It appears that ONLY the Jewish Homeland is subject to such a change- Anybody but Jews is the cry that I hear from some here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM

"YOU have stated that the invaded are not bound by any laes of war, "
I said that the invaded have a right to defend themselves - not that they are not bound by any conventions of war.
You and Keith have persistantly denied that right and excused Israel's war crimes on the Palestinian defensive/retailatory David v Goliath barrage, which it tantamount to unconditional surrender to Israel's demands.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM

Jack, please explain your post.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:14 PM

Jim, "Show me where you have once acknowledged the damage they do to people."
20th July White phosphorous is nasty stuff,
I do not condone Israel's use of WP where it endangered civillians.
I deplored it.
21st July The use close to civillians was reckless and deplorable,
22nd July You will see that I have not supported its use in Gaza.
I said it was wrong and deplorable. It could also be illegal.
I will say again that I have not supported the use of WP in Gaza
It is dangerous, but not a targetted weapon.
I have said all along that its use in Gaza was reckless and possibly illegal.
25th July Emma, I agree WP is too dangerous to use in populated areas
Everyone knows that phosphorus burns
26th july I have never denied that smoke munitions can cause injury, and said its use here was deplorable and possibly illegal.
Do I need to say again that I deplored its use here and said it might have been illegal?
I never suggested smoke was harmless. In fact I said all along that it should not have been used and may have been illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM

>>Since the Arab population is within the territory of the 1923 Mandate Palestine Jewish Homeland, they are invaders<<

beardedbruce that among the dumbest things you have ever said on this forum.

a. Britain was an occupier when it made that mandate. Local Arab speaking Palestinians were not consulted.
b. The "Palestinian Jews" gave up any right to the terms of that mandate when they themselves engaged in terrorism against the British. Even more so after the terrorism and outright warfare by those Jews induced the British to leave.
c. Under no sane definition can the term "invader" be applied to a person who has occupied the same piece of land for generations.
d. It also cannot be applied to people who were kicked off land to make room for the European Jews who now inhabit it. The tens of thousands of refugees in Gaza are in no way invaders.

The truly gullible make such claims.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:49 PM

Jim,

YOU have stated that the invaded are not bound by any laes of war, but can do whatever they need to do to drive out the invader.

Since the Arab population is within the territory of the 1923 Mandate Palestine Jewish Homeland, they are invaders and Israel has no requirement to follow ANY laws.

THAT is what YOU have stated: If you disagree, than the Palestinians have no right to what they are doing: If you think that they have some special rights, then you are stating that Israelis are less human than Palestinians- and that is bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:25 PM

"I have NEVER implied they were harmless."
That is exactly what you have done - I believe you have claimed to have used them yourself somewhere above"
Show me where you have once acknowledged the damage they do to people.
"Really? What agreement is that and what weapons are OK on civilians?"
At the time of the Fallujah massacre there was a claim similar to your own that they were used as cover - read the press debate I posted. The US denied they used them on civilians but in the light of the evidence (posted above) they backed down. They have refused to sign up to their total non-use, Israel have not even botherd to do that and have just used them on civilians anyway - and you have continually claimed that they only used them for cover. READ YOUR OWN POSTINGS.
Are you now saying that they are lethal as described my me and others and that the Israelis used them on civilians, thus making themselves war criminals?
"They have agreed to co-operate"
Last week they backed out of co-operation with the UN Human Rights team.
This morning it was reported that they would re-enter negotiations with the Palestinians, probably for the reasons I suggested above - as far as I am aware their refusal to co-operate with the investigation remains - do you have any different information?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM

The truly gullible take the IDF's word.

>>"The Israeli government have refused to co-operate with a UN investigation"
They have agreed to co-operate.<<

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM

I have NEVER implied they were harmless.
I have always stated the opposite.
Prove me wrong?

"Most governments have signed an agreement saying that they should not be used in the vicinity of civilians"
Really? What agreement is that and what weapons are OK on civilians?

"The Israeli government have refused to co-operate with a UN investigation"
They have agreed to co-operate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM

"No I have not and you can not provide an example because there is none."
You have described them as 'smoke bombs' and implied that they are harmless throughout this discussion.
"No government on Earth agrees with you Jim."
Most governments have signed an agreement saying that they should not be used in the vicinity of civilians - Israel, the US and Saddam Hussain are among the few who have used them in such a manner.
"You and the others lapped it up."
I have made no comment on the deaths and injuries on the ship apart from comparing the weapons carried by the Israelis with the makeshift ones used for defence by the relief crew.
I described the incident as Israel's Sharpville, as it has also been in the press, because of the political impact it has had on Israel's image; pretty much the same as that on apartheid South Africa. It was a display of political ruthlessness, no less, and purts into contact Isreal's and their apologists' contempt for human rights.
"Then the videos showed Israel's account to be much closer to the truth."
The Israeli government have refused to co-operate with a UN investigation and insist on being their own judge and jury ONCE MORE - a fact that you have persistantly ignored. If they have nothing to hide, WHY?
"The damage quickly repaired."
Oh, that's all right then, let's attack a few more hospitals with heavy weapons as long as the damage can be repaired at a later date.
I find it interesting that 'gullibility' was one of the terms being bandied about (along with "the inventions of wingeing Yids" by one Tory MP), when the reports were coming out about the gas chambers - as I said, 'holocaust denier just about sums you up' - and still on your own, despite describing the rest of the world as 'gullible'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 11:51 AM

Foolestoupe, the hospitals were not destroyed.
The damage quickly repaired.
http://www.muslimaid.org/index.php/media-centre/press-releases/475-gaza-hospital

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM

Jim, you said,
"you distorted the effects of phosphorus on civilians."

No I have not and you can not provide an example because there is none.

The Irish army trains with and stockpiles what you say are illegal chemical weapons.
No government on Earth agrees with you Jim.

On gullibility.
At the start of this thread, activists claimed IDF charged aboard with guns blazing and killed 20 passengers.
You and the others lapped it up.
You pronounced it "Israel's Sharpeville."
Then the videos showed Israel's account to be much closer to the truth.
Some activists even resorted to claiming them faked.
The same thing later over the video purported to show a young activist's murder.
The autopsies showed no one died like that.It was just a propagandist lie.

Historical footnote. The word "gullible" was accidently omitted by Dr Sam Johnson from his original dictionary, and to this day it is not found in any printed dictionary out of respect for the great man.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 10:13 AM

"Prove me wrong Jim."
You have been proved wrong by the definitions presented to you which you continue to ignore, by the descriptions of the effects of phosphorus when used on human beings, by the film footage of phoshorus fragments falling on residential areas and by the reports from medical teams treating the injured following the last incursion - if you are 'knowledgeable' about this as you claim, then you have been deliberately distorting what you profess to know.
"I still claim neutrality."
You joke - surely? You have denied, distorted or supported every Israeli war crime and act of brutality put to you, and when you were cornered you paid lip service to 'regretting it'.
"And they are aimed at residential areas to kill civilians."
Up to now the rockets and the circumstances in which they are fired are incapable of being aimed anywhere - read Bobad's description of casualties in his last contribution as compared to the injuries and deaths of Palestinians.
"Jim, here is a picture of one of your army's vehicles."
Sorry, I don't have an army, and I am unaware of any reports of the Irish army using phosphorus on civilians anywhere in the world - enlighten me.
This is again turning into another dialogue which I said I had no intention of being involved in - put up or go and stalk somebody else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 10:09 AM

"A training camp used by Hamas.
Are Hamas training many doctors and nurses? Why in a camp and not the hospital Jim.
You are so gullible. "

Because the IDF blew the crap out of all the hospitals, they are more rubble than sanitary working places of healing.

By your own logic, since all fit citizens, male and female are IDF reserbvists, then 'Israeli Civilian Areas where off duty IDF reservists may live' are thus valid military targets. You are so gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 10:00 AM

Jim to Keith: "you have found yourself very much in the minority".

To be in the minority should not scare anybody, particularly when discussing on the Israel/Palestine question, where in the Left wing political area, to which I think most of us belong, there is an overwhelming majority against Israel and an incredible (to me) support to political movements that despise freedom of thought and speech, critical education, equality between sexes, political and civil rights, division of powers, secularism, economic development.

It is important to weigh the ideas of the others, especially when they express a majority, but conformism should not be our reference.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 09:24 AM

Jim, here is a picture of one of your army's vehicles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Irish_Scorpion_Tank.JPG
Those stubby tubes on the turret are for launching white phosphorus smoke munitions.
Will you be starting a campaign any time soon?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 09:19 AM

Jim,
"Once again you are claiming neutrality and taking sides, as you did when you distorted the effects of phosphorus on civilians"

I am quite knowledgeable about this.
I do not believe I have distorted any aspect of it.
I say you have made that up.
Prove me wrong Jim.

I still claim neutrality.

Were Israel the most advanced civilisation on earth, it can not stop Hamas' rockets killing its people.
No state, however advanced, can allow that to continue.
The crudest of their rockets, with explosive wrapped around with metal fragments, are lethal.
And they are aimed at residential areas to kill civilians.
I find that shocking, and I do not even claim to be a pacifist.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 08:40 AM

And before you accuse me or anybody of being gullible I suggest you take stock of the support you have got on this issue.
This is now the third thread in which you have found yourself very much in the minority, an indication, to me at least, that your views put you so far to the right as to be pretty well beyond the pale of most reasonable-thinking people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 07:58 AM

"You are so gullible"
Once again you are claiming neutrality and taking sides, as you did when you distorted the effects of phosphorus on civilians.
The weapons you are describing are new additions to the Palestinians meagre arsenal and are still piss-poor in comarison with what the Israelis have at their disposal. I doubt if it is coincidence that the Israelis have announced that they are willing to re-open negotiations within two weeks - a combination of the effects of their massive own-gaol over the piracy and the fact that Palestinian opposition appears to be increasing and becoming more efficient.
This continues to be a David and Goliath (ironic that) fight with poorly equipped Palestinians faced with a heavily armed enemy using sophisticated weapons, tanks and planes, who are happy to target homes hospitals, schools and civilians in general. The Israelis continue to be the aggressor in this conflict and are recognised as such throughout the world. The reports of Israeli settlers taking over Palestinian homes and property continue, almost on a daily basis. The Palestinians are the victims who are entitled to show resistance.
Compare the casualty figures in this conflict if you have any doubts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 07:50 AM

"If they stopped, the replies would stop. "


Wa-a-a-a-a-a-aH!

But he hit me back first!...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 06:19 AM

Rockets fired towards Israel from Sinai peninsula

Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Monday 2 August 2010 09.11 BST

A salvo of rockets was fired this morning towards the southern Israeli resort city of Eilat from the Sinai peninsula. There were no casualties or damage in Eilat but there were initial reports of four injuries in the nearby Jordanian city Aqaba.

Five rockets were fired shortly before 8am, according to early reports. One reached open ground on the outskirts of Eilat, a seaside resort popular with Israelis. Three landed in the Red Sea and one hit Aqaba, with some reports saying four people were injured.

The Israeli army said it was searching the area around Eilat and co-ordinating with the Jordanian and Egyptian militaries.

A Jordanian interior ministry source told Reuters: "The Grad rocket landed in a public street near a major five star hotel and caused four injuries, with three persons lightly wounded and the other casualty in a serious condition."

The attack follows a series of rocket launches from Gaza into Israel over the past few days. One Katyusha rocket reached the city Ashkelon causing panic among residents. Israel retaliated with air strikes on Gaza City, killing a senior Hamas commander, Issa Batran. Hamas's military wing pledged to avenge his death.

Further Israeli airstrikes destroyed two tunnels and last night the home of a second senior Hamas commander, Alaa al-Danaf, was rocked by an explosion in which more than 20 were injured. Israel denied involvement.

Attacks by militants on and around Eilat are unusual, although two rockets were fired from the Sinai at the Israeli city in April. A suicide bomber killed three people there in January 2007.

According to Israel, Hamas uses the Sinai Peninsula as a smuggling route for weapons into Gaza. The militant organisation has close links with the Muslim Brotherhood, a banned Islamic organisation in Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 06:04 AM

Jim,
"Again you are equating random attacks by primitive rocket launchers with deliberate targeting of civilian areas"

Some of the rockets are of advanced Chinese manufacture brought in instead of food and humanitarian supplies through the tunnels.
They are aimed at civilian residential areas.
Deliberately aimed and targeted.
If they stopped, the replies would stop.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 06:00 AM

Here is a Reuter's report on it Jim

An Israeli air strike has killed a Hamas military commander and rocket maker in the Gaza Strip, the Islamist group that rules the Palestinian territory said on Saturday.

Issa Batran was killed by a missile that hit his caravan in the central Gaza Strip. Israel launched air strikes against targets in Gaza on Friday after a rocket fired from the enclave exploded in the city of Ashkelon.

The air strikes also hit a training camp in Gaza City used by Hamas and smuggling tunnels along Gaza's southern border with Egypt. Several people were wounded by debris in Gaza City.

Hamas said Batran was a rocket maker and the head of its military wing in the central Gaza Strip. The militant group has a rocket arsenal of crude, homemade projectiles and longer-range rockets smuggled in through tunnels under the border with Egypt.

Israel carried out the air strikes after militants in Gaza fired a rocket into Ashkelon on Israel's Mediterranean coast, blowing out the windows of an apartment block and damaging parked cars in a residential area.
http://alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE66U00V.htm

A training camp used by Hamas.
Are Hamas training many doctors and nurses? Why in a camp and not the hospital Jim.
You are so gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 05:03 AM

The Reuter report carried in The Irish Times on Saturday said it was a camp used by trainee medical workers that was attacked.
Again you are equating random attacks by primitive rocket launchers with deliberate targeting of civilian areas by sophisticated weapons as consitently carried out by the Israelis - that is not my opinion of acceptible behaviour - but then again, my attitude isn't that the Palestinians should surrender to Israeli aggression and usurpation of territory, as your has been on this thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 04:42 AM

Jim, you asked me, "Any open-minded comment on the air attack on the residential area of a coastal city 7 miles north of Gaza Keith? "

That was a Hamas attack on ordinary families in Ashkelon.
I gave you my open minded opinion. Can we have yours now?

The Israeli reply was targeted on Hamas fighters.
Who says it was a medical establishment? Hamas? Must be true then, right.
Hamas also announced the loss of a number of fighters, and a rocket maker.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 04:17 AM

Thank you for your adaptation of a news report on yet another attack on civilians, which you said were not happening.
The next tottering step on your part will be to admit that the Israelis are deliberately targeting civilians as a terror tactic. Rocket attacks on smugglers tunnels are totally ineffective, so intimidation can be their only motive.
The attacks in Gaza were targeted on a training camp for medical workers, by the way - another peep at Israili humanity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:54 AM

So Jim pays even less attention to Emma's long posts than I do!
(I recognised it at once).
Will you all be remonstrating with him about that?

Jim,
"Any open-minded comment on the air attack on the residential area of a coastal city 7 miles north of Gaza Keith? Miraculously no casualties, just homes damaged, and they don't count I suppose (but neither does human life to Keith), but I'm sure they'll try harder next time."
It was a rocket, not air, attack on the Israeli city of Ashkelon Jim.
A shameful unprovoked attack on civilians.

An air attack was in response to that shrapnel packed rocket that landed among family homes.

No rocket, no air attack. Hamas agression to blame again.
BBC said this about it.

The strikes came after a rocket fired from the coastal enclave by militants earlier on Friday hit the Israeli city of Ashkelon on the Mediterranean coast.

That attack caused no casualties but damaged a building and cars in the city, 12km (7 miles) north of Gaza.

Hamas - the Islamist group which controls the territory - named the dead militant as Issa Batran, 42 - a commander of the group's military wing in central Gaza and a rocket maker.

The military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, said eight other Hamas supporters and three civilians were also injured in air strikes on a Hamas military training camp in Gaza City, smuggling tunnels along the Gaza-Egypt border and a target outside a central Gaza refugee camp.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10824909

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 07:49 PM

"would have been devastatingly effective in Gaza had they really wanted to kill civilians."

But trying to do it all at once in a hurry, got a previous nasty man in lots of hot water.... so remember the old saying "just a little every day, gets the job done" ... :-0

Just watching the other day news footage (We Aussies have SBS TV which shows news/current affairs from many overseas countries - with subtitles) of patrolling IDF forces randomly shooting up farmers trying to work their fields next to the 'giant prison fence' circling their country where their family has lived for as many generations as they can remember.... the IDF doesn't even CARE if they can see filming international news media with them...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 07:43 PM

"I should read every word of every post very carefully" "there are some very, very long posts being produced. And now Jim has even started producing copies of Emma's very long posts from just a few days ago!"

1) if you skim/ignore stuff, it affects your ability to consider the whole matter with an open mind...

2) When you start denying/ignoring relevant information, some people may think that repeating it is helpful for you... see also 1) ...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM

Any open-minded comment on the air attack on the residential area of a coastal city 7 miles north of Gaza Keith? Miraculously no casualties, just homes damaged, and they don't count I suppose (but neither does human life to Keith), but I'm sure they'll try harder next time.
This thread was about Israel's act of piracy and has developed into a general discussion on its inhumanity - not a thread-creep, just a logical development - it happens on many threads (unless people like you manage to confine it to their narrow band of perceived knowledge).
Sorry about repeating your information Emma - I really didn't notice, there were plenty of other acts of inhumanity I could have chosen - google Chemical Weapon Attacks Keith.
I did request that you left me out of your mind-games.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 05:26 PM

Jack, I should read every word of every post very carefully, but remember I am mostly answering four of you on my own, and there are some very, very long posts being produced. And now Jim has even started producing copies of Emma's very long posts from just a few days ago!
Jack, I thought your post was all about Gaza, which is at least in the subject of this thread. I know Jim had already tried to thread creep it into Lebanon, having already crept it away from the aid convoy, but I missed that you also had added in Lebanon and I said sorry.

My original reply was completely relevant as I pointed out they had never used cluster bombs since. They would have been devastatingly effective in Gaza had they really wanted to kill civilians.

I will respond to the other posts later.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:26 PM

Keith,

Thank you for the apology but I don't think you are getting what is said to you. You imply that you had been open minded all along in the post IMMEDIATELY after admitting that you did not read what I was saying.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF BEING OPEN MINDED is informing ones self in an objective way. YOU NEED TO PAY ATTENTION to what others are saying.

You also need to try to follow the logic of what is being said and try to gather a few basic facts.

>>>Foolestroupe, Gaza City is urban and densely populated.
Not all of Gaza is, but that is where the rockets mostly come from and where Hamas fighters operate from.<<<

All of the Gaza Strip, according to the CIA fact book is 2 times the Area of Washington DC. The population of Gaza is 1.6 million, about 3 times the population of Washington. Any way you cut it Gaza is densely populated. I've never been to Gaza but I've been to Washington, it is very densely populated. Imagining putting 1.5 times as many people into the same area make my head hurt.

But you said this, "but that is where the rockets mostly come from and where Hamas fighters operate from." referring to Gaza City which you are implying is far more more populated than Gaza as a whole. By your logic that makes Gaza City far more heavily populated than Washington.

You claim that the WP was used by the IDF as a smoke screen.

The WP was fired from 155 mm howitzers in airbursts according to the IDF, which until the Attack on Gaza was over refused to admit any use, over positions from which they claim Gaza Militants were firing.

Isn't a smoke screen, meant to hide positions, supposed to be between you and the opposition or over you to hide your troops not over them obscuring them?

The intended use of the WP in the attack on Gaza was clearly to burn buildings and people. It fell on refugee camps, schools, UN compounds and aide. It is a very imprecise and destructive weapon. Using it in a place many times more populated than Washington DC can have only one clear military use, general destruction of civilians and civilian infrastructure. In the context of an occupation, this is clearly a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:25 PM

WP - it does NOT matter HOW (or for what reason you CLAIM) you release the chemical white phosphorous into the air, if it contacts human flesh - or indeed almost any organic substance, it 'melts' it by 'oxidation' - it 'sucks' the chemical oxygen out of the organic material by chemical reaction, thus breaking down the flesh. This usually kills the victim.

It's just a slower form of napalm, really. And just as 'humane', too.

You might as well spray napalm around a battlefield, claiming that you are only using it for illumination purposes, and that the smoke form its burning will form smoke screens.

'shake and bake' - The US has traditionally provided 'military advisors' for certain countries in the Middle East....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:16 PM

"Foolestroupe, Gaza City is urban and densely populated.
Not all of Gaza is, but that is where the rockets mostly come from"

You are so self brain washed that you cannot see that you may in fact need medical, if not philosophical/rhetorical help.

The films released by the 'freedom fighters' as they call themselves, show them launching these weapons from open fields.

"where the rockets mostly come from"

... but the invisible magic sky fairly who whispers your lines in your ear knows bette, obviously.....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:41 PM

It would appear the supporters of Israel are members of the "melt the skin off children" lobby, if this article from an American newspaper is anything to go by.
This is what the Israelis used in heavily populated Gaza - what the apologists are supporting by lying about its effects and dening that it is illegal to use it in residential areas.
Jim Carroll.

An account of the use of White phosphorus in Fallujah from an American report of the battle and its aftermath.

"We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
Mr. D also points to a comment on Altercation.com, that provides further ammunition – for "illumination purposes" – on the effect of white phosphorous on human beings. There, Mark Kraft writes: "There is no way you can use white phosphorus like that without forming a deadly chemical cloud that kills everything within a tenth of a mile in all directions from where it hits. Obviously, the effect of such deadly clouds weren't just psychological in nature."
Another Kossack, "Hunter," digs up mention of Willy Pete use as a weapon in Washington Post reports from the battlefield itself last November. He then takes on the hair-splitters who immediately arose on the Right to declare that white phosphorous is not itself a banned substance, so it's OK to incinerate children with it. Hunter's incandescant irony is worth quoting at length:
"First, I think it should be a stated goal of United States policy to not melt the skin off of children. As a natural corollary to this goal, I think the United States should avoid dropping munitions on civilian neighborhoods which, as a side effect, melt the skin off of children.
You can call them 'chemical weapons' if you must, or far more preferably by the more proper name of 'incendiaries.' The munitions may or may not precisely melt the skin off of children by setting them on fire; they do melt the skin off of children, however, through robust oxidation of said skin on said children, which is indeed colloquially known as 'burning'…
"And I know it is true, there is some confusion over whether the United States was a signatory to the Do Not Melt The Skin Off Of Children part of the Geneva conventions, and whether or not that means we are permitted to melt the skin off of children, or merely are silent on the whole issue of melting the skin off of children…[However] I am going to come out, to the continuing consternation of Rush "Drug Rehab" Limbaugh and pro-war supporters everywhere, as being anti-children-melting, as a matter of general policy."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:28 PM

'A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption.

Since a question is not an argument, simply asking a loaded question is not (in itself) a fallacious argument although fallacious arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical argument,'

Rather, loaded questions such as you continually pose Keith are typically used to trick someone into implying something they did not intend and I am inclined to agree with Jim that attempts at debate against such tactics are futile

You ask
"What words describe someone who just swallows anything Hamas claims?"

The thing is Keith - it's not 'Hamas claims' that are being discussed here but evidence from various sources including human rights groups, witnesses to UN commissions, and IDF soldiers themselves.

The only appropriate response to such a question - containing as it does the implication that the people disagreeing with you are merely acting as mouthpieces for Hamas - is not to answer it directly, but to either refuse to answer or to reject the question..

But the 'game' demands that any refusal to answer these loaded questions is some kind of admission that you have 'won'

"Wanting to see past the propaganda and lies of both sides is not absence of feeling"
"You all close your (minds) and just heed the propaganda of one side"

Keith I will once more point out to you that much of what has been posted here has come not from 'one side' as you fallaciously put it but from the UN and a number of human rights organizations from both inside and outside Israel

The use of air fired WP shells bombarding Gaza City, for example, has not only been recorded on film, observed in the horrific burns and deaths of civilian victims, confirmed by some IDF soldiers themselves and even admitted (finally) in the Israeli press

But you continue to regurgitate the Hasbara line which has now apparently taken an interesting twist by claiming, as the American abused this weapon in Fallujah, they have no right to criticize Israel for its use in densely populated areas in Gaza


"Hamas chose to make civillian areas their battlefield for the shielding effect and the propaganda value of civillian casualties."

This is an example of your claim to be the only person 'Wanting to see past the propaganda'?

The Gaza citizens, whether they support Hamas or not - and enough people did to democratically vote them into power while 56% of the population are children and unable to vote - live alongside members of the Hamas government in much the same way that people in other countries are neighbours of their local elected representatives.....

Yeah! ….futile.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:20 PM

I repeat - leave me out of your sick mind-games.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 11:54 AM

Emma, I know you care deeply.
You should not presume to have the monopoly on caring.
Wanting to see past the propaganda and lies of both sides is not absence of feeling.
We should be able to have some friendly banter across the barricades too.

Further debate with me really will be futile for the next couple of days, as I will be off line.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 11:21 AM

Foolestroupe, Gaza City is urban and densely populated.
Not all of Gaza is, but that is where the rockets mostly come from and where Hamas fighters operate from.
Israel entered Gaza to try to stop the rockets.
Where should they have gone after the war criminals, Poland?
(Sigh)

Jim, "bad as they are" means "they are bad", just as "every little helps" means "they are good but more would be better"

Why write such stuff if you mean something else?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 10:53 AM

"I was glad you called the rocketing of Israeli civilians bad."
You continue to distort the meaning of what I said despite the fact that I have clarified my position on the subject of the bombardment on at least three seperate occasions - point-scoring to the point of obsession.
This malicious method of distortion on your part is typical of your style of 'debating' on every thread I have encountered you on.
You have deliberately attempted to misrepresent what I and others have said on this thread, which serves only to underline perfectly why responding to you is a total waste of time.
Why involve yourself in a debate on something you neither understand nor care enough to discuss honestly?
Please leave me out of your sick deliberations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 10:23 AM

"It would be better if Hamas did not choose to engage Israel from within Gaza City. "

Well, where the bloody hell are they supposed to 'engage them from' - bloody Poland?

!!!! They'd probably LOVE to do that, if the Israelis would let them LEAVE GAZA, WHICH IS WHERE THEY LIVE, anyway..... sigh....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:16 AM

Jim, you quoted me,
"I am glad you have now called them bad." "You all close yours and just heed the propaganda of one side."
and added,
"To the end you go down trying to score egotistical points."

If it is egotistical to be open minded, questioning and sceptical, then I plead guilty.
What words describe someone who just swallows anything Hamas claims?
Naive? Gullible? Dupe? (Can you give a single Hamas claim you question?)

I was glad you called the rocketing of Israeli civilians bad.
Previously you described it as good. That is what "every little helps" means after all.