Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:02 AM

Thanks for the reference to the Colonial Williamsburg Tavern Music website, julia L.    Ben Franklin's reference to "Chevy Chase" is particularly helpful, since it tends to confirm an earlier reference to that ballad above from Mick Pearce. The reference to the popularity of Scottish music is also interesting. Here is another paragraph from that website referring to Thomas Jefferson's music library. I wonder if he had any of the six books I mentioned above in his library. That information might be available somewhere.

"Though the oral transmission of these songs was a powerful force in the 1700s, there also was interest in preserving them in written form. Individuals collected them and published anthologies of traditional music. Thomas Jefferson shelved some of these works in his music library. Music for drinking songs, country dances, and English, Scottish, and Irish airs rested near works by Vivaldi, Handel, and Haydn. Jefferson also liked playing fiddle tunes heard at local gatherings, according to historian Gilbert Chase in America's Music: From the Pilgrims to the Present."

Here is the website:

http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/winter03-04/tavern.cfm

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:11 PM

Seems like Williamsburg would be a good source
From Colonial Williamsburg's website on Tavern Music
Particularly popular in Virginia in the 1750s and later was Scottish music, John Turner (resident musician) said. Scottish music was in vogue in London during the period. Virginians who wanted to keep up with current English fashion eagerly embraced these tunes. In his later years, George Washington developed a fondness for these songs and encouraged his granddaughters to perform them for him. Scottish music also was enjoyed by the many Scots who settled and worked in Virginia.

Traditional songs touched on all sorts of topics. To appreciate the variety, consider three ballads Benjamin Franklin described as widely known in a 1765 letter to his brother: "Chevy Chase," "The Children in the Woods," and "The Spanish Lady." "Chevy Chase" tells of a bloody fight between knights. "The Children in the Woods" is a tale about the death of two young orphans caused by their uncle's greed for their inheritance. "The Spanish Lady" reveals the sufferings of a Spanish woman captured by English soldiers. She falls in love with one of her captors, who already has a wife and abandons his smitten prisoner for her.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:59 PM

It is quite possible that these books, published in the 1700s, found their way to America. But I doubt that any ballads entered the oral tradition in America directly from them.

"WIT AND MIRTH: or Pills to Purge Melancholy; being a Collection of the best Merry Ballads and Songs, Old and New. Fitted to all Humours, having each their proper Tune for either Voice or Instrument: most of the Songs being new set." By Thomas D'Urfey. 6 vols. London. 1719-20.

"THE TEA-TABLE MISCELLANY: A Collection of Choice Songs, Scots and English." Edinburgh. 1724. 4 vols. [Glasgow, R. & A. Foulis. 1768. 2 vols.]

RELIQUES OF ANCIENT ENGLISH POETRY: Consisting of Old Heroic Ballads, Songs, and other Pieces of our Earlier Poets; together with some few of later date. By THOMAS PERCY, Lord Bishop of Dromore." 3 vols. 1st ed. London, 1765. [4th ed. (improved) 1794.--London, L. A. Lewis, 1839.]

"ANCIENT AND MODERN SCOTTISH SONGS, heroic Ballads, &c." By DAVID HERD. 2 vols. Edinburgh, 1769. 2d ed. 1776. [3d ed. Printed for Lawrie and Symington, 1791.]

"A SELECT COLLECTION OF ENGLISH SONGS, with their Original Airs, and an Historical Essay on the Origin and Progress of National Song." By J. Ritson. 1783. 2d ed. with Additional Songs and Occasional Notes, by Thomas Park. London, 1813. 3 vols.

"SCOTISH SONG. In two volumes." JOSEPH RITSON. London, 1794.   And other Ritson books.

Is there any documentation on these books being in America in the 1700s? And does anyone know of an instance when a ballad passed from such a book back into the "oral tradition" - prior to the middle of the 20th century, when all kinds of "folks" were learning ballads out of books.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:27 PM

John,
Apart from trawling through endless manuscript collections and indeed published accounts of the period, your best chance is looking at what survived to be collected and the differences between American versions and British versions, and you would do really well to co-operate with Richie in this venture as he has already made a strong start.

You are right to suggest the most likely sources of material migrating is oral tradition and street literature. A strong source seems to have been those little songsters with about 200 songs in published on both sides of the pond in the early part of the 19th century. Sharp certainly believed when he was collectiong in the Appalachians that many of the ballads had been circulating there for more than a century. There are indeed a few early ballads that were found in America that had long died out in Britain.

FWIW you need to be aware that literary interference existed both this side and your side. From an early stage collectors were fabricating and expanding oral material, for various reasons, mostly commercial. And indeed there is evidence to suggest that some of these fabrications went into oral tradition. Equally a similar process was going among the broadside hacks who saw nothing wrong in rewriting an old ballad to turn a quick shilling. This process often accounts for those ballads that have widely varying versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:15 PM

It seems that many of the ballads in Child's collection were around in one form or another in England and Scotland in the 1700s. Without creating any hard and fast categories, I would suggest four different groupings. There were "manuscript" collections, which were not usually public, unless they had been gathered up and published. There were "broadsides" and broadside collections. These may have been old and would probably have fallen into the category of manuscript collections. Or they were contemporary and in active circulation. Then there were the actual publications of books, etc., which contained "collections". It would appear that a number of these went through several editions during the 18th century, especially toward the end of the century. And finally, there were the ballads that were still being sung in the "oral tradition". It would seem that some of these ballads still being sung were beginning to be collected toward the end of the century and would perhaps show up in the early 19th century published collections, which would also contain much of the manuscript material as well. There may have been and probably was overlap amongst these different groupings.

Now the question is, for my purposes, how did each of these groupings of ballad material contribute to their exportation to the American Colonies and later to the new republic in the 1700s? Obviously, actual books could have been exported or brought over by immigrants. But realistically, how often, back then, would a ballad be taken from a book and sung and thus put back into oral circulation? It is certainly possible. But I would assume not so likely.

On the other hand, contemporary Broadside Ballad sheets could easily have been exported to America in many different ways. And one would assume that to a certain extent that these were designed for singing? Or at least some were used for that purpose. So, which of these ballads found in the 18th century were in contemporary Broadside form? Which ones were actually published as broadsides in the 1700s?   Is there an accessible list for this? Or is this going to entail another sorting project? I don't really have the background to do this because I am not familiar at all with the sources.

I would assume that until they were "collected" and published, the various manuscript collections were not available for public use either in England and Scotland, or in America. Unless someone had made a copy and brought it over with them, they would not likely have gotten to America from this group.

And that leaves those ballads that were being actively sung in the oral tradition throughout the 1700s in England and Scotland. I did notice quite often that ballads were "taken down from recitation" in Child's notes. A lot of them were not being sung but recited like poetry? That is a somewhat different kind of oral tradition than one would normally think of in association with ballads. Can we tell which of these ballads were being sung in England and Scotland during the 1700s? I would assume that just because they show up in a written manuscript or a published book doesn't mean that they necessarily had "died out of the oral tradition." I suspect that some of this information is probably in those collections from the first quarter of the 19th century, such as Scot, which I have not included in my survey. But once again, I am not familiar with these materials. How do we find out which ones were being sung?

I would assume that the two primary ways that these ballads traveled to America were either by the oral tradition or by the Broadside tradition, or some combination of these two.

This means that what we've established with this survey is the probable exclusion - although they may have been in the oral tradition and not "collected" yet - of those ballads for which there is no written documentation in Child (or elsewhere) until at least 1825 or so. It turns out that this doesn't really narrow the scope very significantly. On the flip side, we can say, at least theoretically that all of the ballads for which we do have documentation (in Child and elsewhere) in 18th century England and Scotland (and in a few cases Ireland), "could" have come over to America during that time, or later.

But the fact is, as far as documentation goes, there is no evidence that many of them ever did come over to America. Now I want to look at which of the ballads from the survey of 18th century material have been "collected" from the oral traditions in America prior to audio recordings and radio. However, for the most part, our American documentation for this comes from the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. It was interesting to come across a handful of American versions in Child, almost all of them in the footnotes and appendices. I had not expected that. Some of them were dated fairly early in the 19th century.

I am not at all sure that when all of this is said and done that we'll actually have any more certain information that when we began, but at least I will have a better understanding of the scope of things. That seems helpful and may raise some additional questions of interest.

Remember, I am trying to document the presence of any of the so-called "Child" ballads in America in the 1700s. I continue to appreciate all of your help.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 12:30 PM

Dave Ruch, thanks for the reference to Kate Van Winkle Keller and David Hildebrand. I have checked out their website and found it most interesting.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 12:27 PM

Here is what I could glean from Vol 5 of THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS (Dover) with regard to ballads from the 1700s collected by Child. I have included all of the Appendices, etc. Again, please forgive gross errors and misunderstandings since I am totally unfamiliar with Child's sources. At the end of all of this, I did find Child's "Sources Of The Texts of the English and Scottish Ballads", which was very helpful and if I had the energy, I should go back over everything and double check it with this list in hand, but for now..."

--------------
JOHN THOMSON AND THE TURK—B
Leyden's Glossary to The Complaynt of Scotland, p. 371. ["Leyden (1801) says that he had "heard the whole song when very young."]

THE HEIR OF LINNE—A
Percy MS., p. 71; Hales and Furnivall, I, 174. [1765, 1794]
And, "THE RUNKARD'S LEGACY" from Percy's Papers in Appendix

THE LORD OF LORN AND THE FALSE STEWARD—A
Percy MS., p. 73, Hales and Furnivall, I, 180.
THE LORD OF LORN AND THE FALSE STEWARD—B
Wood, 401, fol. 95 b. b. Roxburghe, I, 222, III, 534; Roxburghe Ballads, ed. Chappell, II, 55. c. Pepys, I, 494, No 254 (from a transcript in Percy's p

THE SUFFOLK MIRACLE
Wood, E. 25, fol. 83. b. Roxburghe, II, 240; Moore's Pictorial Book of Ancient Ballad Poetry, p. 463. [also Pepys,III...Old Ballads, 1723]

KING EDWARD THE FOURTH AND A TANNER OF TAMWORTH
a. Wood, 401, fol. 44, Bodleian Library.
b. Douce, I, 109, Bodleian Library.
Roxburghe, I, 176, 177; Chappell, Roxburghe Ballads, I, 529.

And "KING HENRY II AND THE MILLER OF MANSFIELD in Percy

OUR GOODMAN—A
Herd's MSS, I, 140. [1776]
OUR GOODMAN—B
A broadside: Printed and Sold at the Printing-Office in Bow Church-Yard, London.

GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR—A
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 330. b. [Pinkerton], Select Scotish Ballads, 1783, II, 150.
GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR—C
Johnson's Museum, IV, 376, No 365, 1792. Contributed by Robert Burns.

THE FRIAR IN THE WELL—A
a. Rawlinson, 566, fol. 63, 40. b. Roxburghe, II, 172; Ebsworth, Roxburghe Ballads, VII, 222. c. D'Urfey's Pills to purge Melancholy, ed. 1719, III, 325.

THE WIFE WRAPT IN WETHER'S SKIN—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 319. "From the recitation of a friend of the editor's in Morayshire." [A fragment in Herd's MSS, I...belongs, if not to this ballad, at least to one in which an attempt is made to tame a shrew by castigation."]

THE JOLLY BEGGAR—B
a. Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 46. b. Curious Tracts, Scotland, British Museum, 1078, m. 24, No 30. ["The Gaberlunyie -Man" was, so far as can be ascertained, first printed in teh Tea-Table Miscellany (in 1724)...."    Pinkerton 1783, Johnson, 1790, ritson 1794, Herd 1776]

THE CRAFTY FARMER
a. 'The Crafty Farmer,' Logan, A Pedlar's Pack, p. 126, from a chap-book of 1796; 'The Crafty Miller,' Maidment, Scotish Ballads and Songs, 1859, p. 208, from a Glasgow stall-copy; a stall-copy, printed by M. Randall, Stirling.
'The Yorkshire Farmer,' Kidson, Traditional Tunes, p.140, from The Manchester Songster, 1792.

JOHN DORY
Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia, London, 1609; No 1 of Freemen's Songs, sig. B.

THE GEORGE ALOE AND THE SWEEPSTAKE
a. Percy Papers, "from an ancient black-letter copy in Ballard's collection."
b. Rawlinson, 566, fol. 183, 40.
Roxburghe, III, 204, in Ebsworth, Roxburghe Ballads, VI, 408.

THE SWEET TRINITY (THE GOLDEN VANITY)—A
Pepys Ballads, IV, 196, No 189.

CAPTAIN WARD AND THE RAINBOW
Bagford Ballads, I, 65. [Pepys]

THE YOUNG EARL OF ESSEX'S VICTORY OVER THE EMPEROR OF GERMANY—A
Douce Ballads, III, fol. 80 b. b. Roxburghe, III, 416, in Ebsworth's Roxburghe Ballads, VI, 405. [in Evans's Old Ballads, 1777]

THE MERMAID—A
The Glasgow Lasses Garland, the second piece, British Museum, 11621. c. 3 (68). "Newcastle, 1765?"

JOHN OF HAZELGREEN—A
Elizabeth Cochrane's MS., p. 126. ["having been transcribed by C.K. Sharpe for Sir W. Scott "from a 4to MS., in a female hand, written probably about one hundred years ago,...."]

THE OUTLAW MURRAY—A
Herd's MSS, II, fol. 76, I, 255, 1795. b. Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, 1803, I, 1; principally from a copy found among the papers of the late Mrs Cockburn, of Edinburgh. c. Aytoun's Ballads of Scotland, 1859, II, 131; "from an old manuscript in the Philiphaugh charterchest," now not accessible. d. A copy among the Philiphaugh papers, transcribed not earlier than 1848.
THE OUTLAW MURRAY—B
Glenriddell's MSS, XI, 61, 1791.
-----
ADDITIONS & CORRECTIONS, etc

THE THREE RAVENS
a version from E. Peacock, Lincolnshire, "whose father, born in 1793, heard it as a boy at harvest suppers and sheep-shearings, and took down a copy from the recitation of Harry Richard, a laborer, who cold not read and had leart it 'from his fore-elders.'

THE GARDENER
Five Excellent New Songs. Edinburgh. Printed and sold by William Forrest, at the head of the Cowgate, 1766.

FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM
"Communicated by Miss Mary E. Burleigh, of Worcester MA, and deriaved, through a relative, from her great-grandmother, who had heard the ballad sung at gatherings of young people in Webster, MA, not long after 1820."

THE BAFFLED KNIGHT
The Complete Collection of Old and New English and Scotch Songs, 1735...repetitions from earlier publications;...."

THE WIFE WRAPT IN WETHER'S SKIN
"From the recitation of Miss Lydia R. Nichols, Salem, MA, as heard in the early years of this century. Sung by a New England country fellow on ship-board...."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:00 PM

Okay, John. Be glad to help.

Kate's on Ballad List.

As you're on Vol 5, most of the single version stuff won't be in your list.

Most of the humorous songs are straight off broadsides and are really only there as representatives of their type, Get up and bar the door, Keach i' the Creel etc., and could easily have been replaced by a thousand more similar pieces.

295A is a late 18thc garland ballad and slip song.
The concoction that is 295B derives from A and another late 18thc ballad that was very common in the 19thc and from which all of the American versions derive. There are a few Scottish fragments that derive from A in the Greig/Duncan Collection. B is a recent fabrication c1890. As Child demonstrates, even A is a concoction of bits and pieces from other ballads, but by a broadside hack.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Dave Ruch typing on cell phone
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:02 PM

Hi John,

Have you tried Kate Van Winkle Keller and David Hildebrand? You can find both with a quick Google search. They seem to specialize in "folk" and other music from colonial America, and I know they've gone through a fair number of manuscripts from that period.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:19 PM

Steve, when I get through with this listing of Child's ballads documented in the 18th century, I'll have some questions about "oral tradition" and broadsides.

Here is the material from Vol 4:

HOBIE NOBLE
Caw's Poetical Museum, p. 193. b. 'Hobie Noble,' Percy Papers.

HUGHIE GRAME—A
a. Roxburghe Ballads, II, 294. b. Douce Ballads, II, 204 b. c. Rawlinson Ballads, 566, fol. 9. All printed for P. Brooksby: 1672-95(?). d. Pills to purge Melancholy, VI, 289, 17. e. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 344. [Ritson 1790]

THE LOCHMABEN HARPER—A
a. Glenriddell MS. XI, 42, 1791; "from a MS. collection of Mr Henderson." b. Johnson's Museum, No 579, VI, 598, 1803, communicated by Burns. c. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1802, I, 65.
THE LOCHMABEN HARPER—B
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 39, 1791; "from Dr Clapperton, of Lochmaben."

THE LOCHMABEN HARPER—C
The Edinburgh Topographical, Traditional, and Antiquarian Magazine, 1849, p. 58; communicated by W. G. "from the recitation of a friend, who learned it many years ago from her grandfather," a farmer in Wigtonshire, who died in 1813, at the age of ninety-four.

LORD MAXWELL'S LAST GOODNIGHT—A
Communicated to Percy by G. Paton, Edinburgh, December 4, 1778
LORD MAXWELL'S LAST GOODNIGHT—B
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 18. 1791.

THE FIRE OF FRENDRAUGHT—D
Ritson's Scotish Songs, 1794, II, 35; remembered by the Rev. Mr Boyd, translator of Dante, and communicated to the editor by J. C. Walker.

THE BONNIE HOUSE O AIRLIE—A
a. Sharpe's Ballad Book, p. 59, No 20, 1823. b. Finlay's Ballads, II, 25, 1808, from two recited copies and "one printed about twenty years ago on a single sheet." c. Skene MS., pp. 28, 54, from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3. d. Campbell MSS, II, 113, probably from a stallcopy. e, f. Aberdeen stall copies, "printed for the booksellers." g. Hogg's Jacobite Relics, II, 152, No 76, "Cromek and a street ballad collated, 1821." h. Kinloch MSS, VI, 5, one stanza, taken down from an old woman's recitation by J. Robertson.   ["The earliest copy of this ballad hitherto found is a broadside of about 1790...."]
THE GYPSY LADDIE—A
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, vol. iv, 1740. Here from the London edition of 1763, p. 427. [Herd 1769, 1776, Pinkerton 1783, Ritson 1794]
THE GYPSY LADDIE—G
a. A broadside in the Roxburghe Ballads, III, 685, entered in the catalogue, doubtfully, as of Newcastle upon Tyne, 1720. b. A recent stall-copy, Catnach, 2 Monmouth Court, Seven Dials.
THE GYPSY LADDIE—K
a. From Mrs Helena Titus Brown of New York. b. From Miss Emma A. Clinch of New York. Derived, 1820, or a little later, a directly, b indirectly, from the singing of Miss Phœbe Wood, Huntington, Long Island, and perhaps learned from English soldiers there stationed during the Revolutionary war.

BESSY BELL AND MARY GRAY
Sharpe's Ballad Book, 1823, p. 62. b. Lyle's Ancient Ballads and Songs, 1827, p. 160, "collated from the singing of two aged persons, one of them a native of Perthshire." c. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1833, I, 45, two stanzas. [Child says: "A squib on the birth of the Chevalier St Geroge, beginning
        Bessy Bell and Mary Grey,
        Those famous bonny lasses,
shows that this little ballad, or song, was very well known in the last years of the seventeenth century. The first stanza was made by Ramsay the beginning of a song of his own, and stands thus in Ramsay's Poem, Edinburgh, 1721, p. 80:
        O Bessy Bell and Mary Gray,
        They are tw bonny lasses;
        They bigged a bower on yon Burn-brae,
        And theekd it oer wi rashes.

THE BARON OF BRACKLEY—C
Jamieson-Brown MS., Appendix, p. viii, as transcribed for Jamieson by Rev. Andrew Brown, and sent him by Mrs Brown in a letter of June 18, 1801. b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 102; Mrs. Brown's copy combined with an imperfect one taken down by Sir W. Scott "from the recitation of two ladies, great-grandchildren of Farquharson of Inverey."

JAMIE DOUGLAS—J
Motherwell's MS., p. 299; from the recitation of Rebecca Dunse, a native of Galloway, 4 May, 1825. "A song of her mother's, an old woman."
JAMIE DOUGLAS—M
Herd's MSS, I, 54. [1776]
Also: WALY, WALY, GIN LOVE BE BONY
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, the second volume, published before 1727; here from the Dublin edition of 1729, p. 176. b. Thomson's Orpheus Caledonius, seond edition, 1733, I, 71; four stanzas in the first edition, 1725, No 34. [Percy 1765, Herd 1796]

And from the Appendix:
ARTHUR'S SEAT SHALL BE MY BED, ETC., OR, LOVE IN DESPAIR
A new song much in request, sung with its own proper tune.
Laing, Broadsides Ballads, No. 61, not dated but considered to have been printed towards the end of the seventeenth or the beginning of the eighteenth century, and probably at Edinburgh.

GEORDIE—A
Johnson's Museum, No 346, p. 357, 1792; communicated by Robert Burns.
And from Appendix:
"A lamentable new ditty, made upon the death of a worthy gentleman named George Stoole...." Roxburghe Collection, I [Ritson 1793]

BONNIE JAMES CAMPBELL—A
Herd's MSS, I, 40, II, 184.

BEWICK AND GRAHAM
'The Song of Bewick and Grahame,' a stall-copy, in octavo, British Museum, 11621. e. 1. (4.) b. 'A Remarkable and Memorable Song of Sir Robert Bewick and the Laird Graham,' broadside, Roxburghe Ballads, III, 624. c. 'A Remarkable and Memorable Song of Sir Robert Bewick and the Laird Graham,' broadside, Percy papers. d. 'Bewick and Graham's Garland,' M. Angus and Son, Newcastle, Bell Ballads, Abbotsford Library, P. 5, vol. i, No 60. e. Broadside, in "A Jolly Book of Garlands collected by John Bell in Newcastle," No 29, Abbotsford Library, E. 1. f. 'Bewick and Graham,' chapbook, Newcastle, W. Fordyce. g. "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 145, Abbotsford. h. 'Chirstie Græme,' the same, No 89. ["No copy of this ballad earlier than the last century is known to me. The Museum Catalogue gives a conjectural date of 1740 to a. and of 1720 to b. and, conjecturally again, to Newcastle."]

SIR JAMES THE ROSE
From a stall-tract of about 1780, Abbotsford library. b. Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 321. c. Sir James the Rose's Garland, one of a volume of the like from Heber's library. d. Motherwell's MS., p. 281; from the recitation of Mrs Gentles, of Paisley. e. Herd's MSS, I, 82. f. The same, II, 42. g. 'Sir James the Rose,' Pinkerton's Scottish Tragic Ballads, 1781, p. 61.

THE BRAES O YARROW—A
Communicated to Percy by Dr William Robertson, Principal of Edinburgh.
THE BRAES O YARROW—D
Communicated to Percy by Robert Lambe, Norham, April 16, 1768.
THE BRAES O YARROW—O
Herd's MSS, I, 35, II, 181. [Ritson 1794]

RARE WILLIE DROWNED IN YARROW, OR, THE WATER O GAMRIE—A
Thomson's Orpheus Caledonius, II, 110, 1733.
RARE WILLIE DROWNED IN YARROW, OR, THE WATER O GAMRIE—B
a. Cromek's Select Scotish Songs, 1810, II, 196; eighth and ninth stanzas of a fragment sent William Tytler by Burns in 1790. b. Stenhouse's edition of the Musical Museum, 1853, IV, 464.

And in the Appendix:
"ALLAN WATER" /ANNAN WATER
"mentioned in Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany...1729"

THE MOTHER'S MALISON, OR, CLYDE'S WATER—B
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 135; from Mrs Brown's recitation, apparently in 1800.

THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—A
Percy papers; communicated to Percy by R. Lambe, of Norham, August 17, 1768, and dated May, 1768.
THE BROOM OF COWDENKNOWS—B
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 308. b. Johnson's Museum, No 110, p. 113.
"The Broom of Cowdenknows,' a "new" song, in the Tea-Table Miscellany, p. 22, Dublin, 1729...."

THE BONNY LASS OF ANGLESEY—A
Herd's MSS, I, 148.

BONNY BABY LIVINGSTON—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., Appendix, p. xii, sent by Mrs Brown to Jamieson, in a letter dated September 15, 1800. b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 135, as taken from Mrs Brown's recitation a short time before a was written down.
EPPIE MORRIE
Maidment's North Countrie Garland, p. 40, 18 ["This ballad," says Maiment, "is probably much more than a century old...."]

BONNY LIZIE BAILLIE
'Bonny Lizie Balie, A New Song very much in Request,' Laing broadsides, No 46; no date or place. b. 'Bonny Lizzie Bailie,' Maidment's Scotish Ballads and Songs, 1859, p. 13. c. 'My bonny Lizzie Baillie,' Johnson's Museum, ed. 1853, IV, 451. d. 'Lizae Baillie,' Herd's MSS, I, 101, [1776] and, in part, II, 121. e. 'Lizie Baillie,' Campbell MSS, I, 98. f. 'Lizzie Bailie,' Smith's Scotish Minstrel, IV, 90. g. 'Lizie Baillie,' Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland, II, 173.

CHARLIE MAC PHERSON—A
Harris MS., fol. 23 b; from Mrs Harris's singing. ["The ballad was known to Mrs Brown of Falkland. She gives it the title of 'The Carrying-off of the Heiress of Kinady,'..."]

THE EARL OF ABOYNE—B
Buchan's Gleanings, p. 71, 1825. b. Gibb MS., p. 29, No 5, 1882, as learned by Mrs Gibb, senior, "fifty years ago," in Strachan, Kincardineshire.
"None of the versions here gien g beyond 1800. Mrs Brown of Falkland, in an unprinted letter to Alexander Fraser Tytler, December 23, 1800, offers him 'The death of The Coountess of Aboyne,' which she had heard sung when a child...."

THE LAIRD O DRUM—B
Skene MS., p. 78; taken down from recitation in the north of Scotland, 1802-3. [see Herd 1776, in Appendix]

GLENLOGIE, OR, JEAN O BETHELNIE—F
Communicated to Percy by Robert Lambe, of Norham, August 17, 1768; dated April, 1768.

THE RANTIN LADDIE—A
a. Johnson's Musical Museum, No 462, p. 474, communicated by Robert Burns; 1797. b. Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland, II, 66, 1828.

JAMES HARRIS (THE DÆMON LOVER)—A
Pepys Ballads, IV, 101; from a copy in Percy's papers.
JAMES HARRIS (THE DÆMON LOVER)—B
The Rambler's Garland, British Museum, 11621, c. 4 (57). 1785(?)

LADY ELSPAT
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., p. 19. Printed in Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 191. b. "Scottish Songs," MS., fol. 30, Abbotsford Library, N. 3, in the handwriting of Walter Scott, about 1795.

THE GREY COCK, OR, SAW YOU MY FATHER?
a. 'The Grey Cock,' Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 324; Herd's MSS, I, 4; Herd's Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, II, 208. b. 'Saw you my father?' Chappell's Popular Music, p. 731. [1772, 1787]

THE KITCHIE-BOY—C
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 7.

Additions:
THE TWA SISTERS
Anna Seward to Walter Scott - a version of "Binnorie" "I first heard sung, with farcial grimace, in my infancy [born 1747], ..."
KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP - P
"was printed and sold by John White, Newcastle-upon-tyne, "circa 1777:"
YOUNG BEICHAN
from Mrs Christiana Greenwood, London, to Scott, 1806, "as heard by her in her youth at Longnewton, near Jedburgh, "where most of the old women could sing it."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:36 PM

One interesting fact that this survey is throwing up is the small number that survived in oral tradition in any significant numbers into the 19th century.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

Here is the material from Vol 3 (Dover) from THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS, edited by Francis James Child:

-------------------------------
JOHNIE COCK—A
Communicated to Percy by Miss Fisher, of Carlisle, 1780, No 5 of MS.

ROBYN AND GANDELEYN
Sloane MS., 2593, fol. 14 b, British Museum. [Ritson, Ancient Songs, 1790]

ADAM BELL, CLIM OF THE CLOUGH, AND WILLIAM OF CLOUDESLY
a. Two fragments, stanzas 113-128, 161-170, of an edition by John Byddell, London, 1536: Library of the University of Cambridge.
b. A fragment, stanzas 53-111, by a printer not identified: formerly in the possession of J. Payne Collier.
c. 'Adambel, Clym of the cloughe, and Wyllyam of cloudesle,' William Copeland, London [1548-68]: British Museum, C. 21, c. 64.
d. 'Adam Bell, Clim of the Clough, and William of Cloudesle,' James Roberts, London, 1605: Bodleian Library, C. 39, Art. Selden.
e. Another edition with the same title-page: Bodleian Library, Malone, 299.
'Adam Bell, Clime of the Cloug[he], and William off Cloudeslee,' Percy MS., p. 390: British Museum. Hales and Furnivall, III, 76.
-----------------------
For now, I skipping the Robin Hood ballads. Most of them were available in the 18th century. (See Steve Gardham's note.)
-----------------------

SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 151, as taken down by the editor from Mrs Brown's recitation.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—B
Percy's Reliques, I, 32, 1765; from a manuscript copy sent from Scotland.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—C
Percy papers; communicated to Percy by Paton, in 1768 or 69, and derived from a friend of Paton's.
SIR HUGH, OR, THE JEW'S DAUGHTER—D
Herd's MS., I, 213; stanzas 7-10, II, 219.

QUEEN ELEANOR'S CONFESSION—A
a. A broadside, London, Printed for C. Bates, at the Sun & Bible in Gilt-spur-street, near Pye-corner, Bagford Ballads, II, No 26, 1685? b. A broadside, Printed for C. Bates, in Pye-corner, Bagford Ballads, I, No 33, 1685? c. Another copy of b, reprinted in Utterson's Little Book of Ballads, p. 22. d. A Collection of Old Ballads, 1723, I, 18.

GUDE WALLACE—A
A chap-book of Four New Songs and a Prophecy, 1745? The Scots Musical Museum, 1853, D. Laing's additions, IV, 458; Maidment, Scotish Ballads and Songs, 1859, p. 83.
GUDE WALLACE—B
Communicated to Percy by R. Lambe, of Norham, apparently in 1768.

HUGH SPENCER'S FEATS IN FRANCE—A
Percy MS., p. 281; Hales and Furnivall, II, 290.
HUGH SPENCER'S FEATS IN FRANCE—B
Percy Papers: communicated by the Duchess Dowager of Portland.

DURHAM FIELD
Percy MS., p. 245; Hales and Furnivall, II, 190.

THE BATTLE OF OTTERBURN—A
a. Cotton MS. Cleopatra, C. iv, leaf 64, of about 1550. b. Harleian MS. 293, leaf 52. [Percy, 1794, 1765]
THE BATTLE OF OTTERBURN—B
a. Herd's MS., I, 149, II, 30; Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 153. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, I, 31, 1802, "corrected" from Herd, 1776, "by a MS. copy."

THE HUNTING OF THE CHEVIOT—A
MS. Ashmole, 48, Bodleian Library, in Skeat's Specimens of English Literature, 1394-1579, ed. 1880, p. 67. [Percy 1765]
THE HUNTING OF THE CHEVIOT—B Chevy Chase
a. Percy MS., p. 188, Hales and Furnivall, II, 7. b. Pepys Ballads, I, 92, No 45, broadside printed for M. G. c. Douce Ballads, fol. 27b, and Roxburghe Ballads, III, 66, broadside printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, and J. Wright. d. Wood's Ballads, 401, 48, broadside printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, and W. Gilbertson. e. Bagford Ballads, I, No 32, broadside printed by and for W. Onley. f. A Scottish. copy, without printer.

KING HENRY FIFTH'S CONQUEST OF FRANCE
a-d, broadsides. a. Among Percy's papers. b. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 358. c. Jewitt's Ballads and Songs of Derbyshire, p. 1. d. Chetham's Library, Manchester, in Hales and Furnivall, Percy's Folio MS., II, 597. e. Percy papers, "taken down from memory." f. Nicolas, History of the Battle of Agincourt, 1832, Appendix, p. 78, from the recitation of a very aged person. g. The same, p. 80, source not mentioned. h. Tyler, Henry of Monmouth, II, 197, apparently from memory. i. Percy Society, XVII, Dixon, Ancient Poems, etc., p. 52, from singing. j. Skene MS., p. 42. k. Macmath MS., p. 27, from tradition. 1, m. Buchan's MSS, I, 176, II, 124, probably broadside or stall copies.

SIR JOHN BUTLER
Percy MS., p. 427; Hales and Furnivall, III, 205.

THE ROSE OF ENGLANDE
Percy MS., p. 423; Hales and Furnivall, III, 187.

SIR ANDREW BARTON—A
Percy MS., p. 490; Hales and Furnivall, III, 399. [Child says: "Given in Old Ballads, 1723, 159; in Percy's Reliques, 1765, II, ...Ritson's Select Colelction of English Songs, 1783, I...."]
SIR ANDREW BARTON—B
Douce Ballads, I, 18 b. b. Pepys Ballads, I, 484, No 249. c. Wood Ballads, 401, 55. d. Roxburghe Ballads, I, 2. e. Bagford Ballads, 643, m. 9 (61). f. Bagford Ballads, 643, m. 10 (77). g. Wood Ballads, 402, 37. h. Glenriddell MSS, XI, 20.

FLODDEN FIELD
From Deloney's Pleasant History of John Winchcomb, in his younger yeares called Jacke of Newberie, etc., London, 1633; reprinted by J. O. Halliwell, London, 1859, p. 48. [Ritson, 1790]

JOHNIE ARMSTRONG—A
a. Wit Restord in severall Select Poems not formerly publisht, London, 1658, p. 30, in Facetiæ, London, 1871, I, 132.
Wit and Drollery, London, 1682, p. 57. [Dryden 1716,]

JOHNIE ARMSTRONG—B
a. Wood, 401, fol. 93 b, London, printed for Francis Grove (1620-55?).
b. Pepys, II, 133, No 117, London, printed for W. Thackeray and T. Passenger (1660-82?). [Evans, 1777, Ritson, 1783 & 1794, Herd 1769, 1776]
A Collection of Old Ballads, 1723, I, 170.
JOHNIE ARMSTRONG—C
Allan Ramsay, The Ever Green, II, 190, "copied from a gentleman's mouth of the name of Armstrang, who is the 6th generation from this John."

THE DEATH OF QUEEN JANE—A
Communicated to Percy by the Dean of Derry, as written from memory by his mother, Mrs. Bernard, February, 1776.
THE DEATH OF QUEEN JANE—C
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 182; "from two fragments, one transmitted from Arbroath and another from Edinburgh." b. Herd's MSS, I, 103.

THOMAS CROMWELL
Percy MS., p. 55; Hales and Furnivall, I, 129.

MUSSELBURGH FIELD
'Musleboorrowe ffeild,' Percy MS., p. 54; Hales and Furnivall, I, 123.

MARY HAMILTON—R
Burns, in a letter to Mrs Dunlop, January 25, 1790; Currie, II, 290, 1800.

EARL BOTHWELL
Percy MS., p. 272; Hales and Furnivall, II, 260.

THE RISING IN THE NORTH
Percy MS., p. 256; Hales and Furnivall, II, 210.

NORTHUMBERLAND BETRAYED BY DOUGLAS
Percy MS., p. 259; Hales and Furnivall, II, 217.

CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—A
Cotton MS. Vespasian, A. xxv, No 67, fol. 187 of the last quarter of the 16th century, British Museum; ritson's ancient song, 1790, p 137; ...; Furnivall, in Transactions of the New Shakspere Society, 1880-86, Appendix, p. 52.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—B
Percy MS., p. 34; hales and Furnivall, I, 79.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—C
Communicated to Percy by Robert Lambe, Norham, October 4, 1766, being all that a servant of Lambe's could remember.
CAPTAIN CAR, OR, EDOM O GORDON—D
Robert and Andrew Foulis, Glasgow, 1755; "as preserved in the memory of a lady."

ROOKHOPE RYDE
The Bishopric Garland, or Durham Minstrel [edited by Joseph Ritson], 2d ed., Newcastle, 1792; here, from the reprint by Joseph Haslewood, 1809, p. 54, in Northern Garlands, London, 1810. "Taken down from the chanting of George Collingood the elder, late of Boltsburn, in the neighborhood of Ryhope," who died in 1785.

KING JAMES AND BROWN
Percy MS., p. 58; Hales and Furnivall, I, 135.

THE BONNY EARL OF MURRAY—A
Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany, 1763, p. 356. [Percy 1765, Herd 1769, Riston 1794]

THE LAIRD O LOGIE—B
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 240.

THE LADS OF WAMPHRAY
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 34, 1791.

DICK O THE COW
'An excelent old song cald Dick of the Cow.' Percy Papers, 1775. b. Caw's Poetical Museum, p. 22, 1784. c. Campbell, Albyn's Anthology, II, 31, 1818.

JOCK O THE SIDE—A
Percy MS., p. 254; Hales and Furnivall, II, 203.
JOCK O THE SIDE—B
a. Caw's Poetical Museum, 1784, p. 145; "from an old manuscript copy." b. Campbell's Albyn's Anthology, II, 28; "taken down from the recitation of Mr Thomas Shortreed," of Jedburgh, "who learnt it from his father."
JOCK O THE SIDE—C
Percy Papers. "The imperfect copy sent me from Keelder, as collected from the memory of an old person by Mr William Hadley, in 1775."
JOCK O THE SIDE—D
Percy Papers. "These are scraps of the old song repeated to me by Mr Leadbeater, from the neighborhood of Hexham, 1774."

ARCHIE O CAWFIELD—A
Communicated to Percy by Miss Fisher of Carlisle, 1780.
ARCHIE O CAWFIELD—B
a. Glenriddell MSS, XI, 14, 1791, "an old West Border ballad." b. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1833, II, 116.


---Additions
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL/"THE LASS OF OCRAM"
"There is a version of this ballad in the Roxburghe collection, III, 488, a folio slip without imprint, dated in teh Museum Catalogue 1740....Mr Ebsworth in the Roxburghe Ballads, VI 609...puts the date of issue circa 1765"
--
Also, check out LAMKIN - P
Child says: "The negroes of Dumfries, Prince William County, Virginia, have this ballad, orally transmitted from the original Scottish settlers of that region, with the stanza found in F (19) and T (14):
        Mr Lammikin, Mr Lammikin,
        oh, spare me my life,
        And I'll give you my daughter Betsy,
        And she shall be your wife.
"They sang it to a monotonous measure." (Mrs. Dulany)"

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:52 AM

Thanks Steve. Finding evidence of 'Cambric Shirt' in oral tradition in the 18th century could be siginificant. The North American strain of Child 2 seems to consists entirely of 'Cambric Shirt' variants - I'm not aware of 'The Elfin Knight' strain having made it's way over there...

Wrong again! There's one on Richie's site: a 'Blow, blow' version from Phillips Barry. Just the one, though, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:17 AM

Brian & John
I have access to 2 editions of GGG. The earlier definitely contains The Cambrick Shirt on p11. This edition is undated but was printed by and for R Christopher. It must be c1796 because there's a lot of rhymes added at the back by either Ritson or Douce in 1796. The other edition was printed by Christopher and Jennet of Stockton.

However, in Roy Palmer's 'Folk Songs Collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams' at page 31, Roy says 'The first appearance in print of 'The Cambric Shirt' was in GGG (1784).' The ODNR also backs this up.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:44 PM

Except for a handful I wouldn't bother dealing separately with the RH ballads as they all appeared together in the various RH Garlands from the middle of the 17th century right into the middle of the 18th and then at the end of the 18th appeared separately on upmarket broadsheets printed by the likes of Lawrie and Whittle.

It might be worth including the reference to Pepys having heard Barbara Allen sung in the theatre in the 17th century.

It would appear that Child had access to the Percy Mss. I wonder why they were never published.

Keep em coming, John.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:14 PM

Here is the information from Vol. 2:

THE CHERRY-TREE CAROL—B
Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 59, from a Worcester broadside of the last century. b. Hone's Ancient Mysteries, p. 90, from various copies. c. Sylvester, A Garland of Christmas Carols, p. 45. d. Birmingham chap-book, of about 1843, in B. Harris Cowper's Apocryphal Gospels, p. xxxviii.

THE CARNAL AND THE CRANE
a. Sandys, Christmas Carols, p. 152, Christmastide, p. 246, from a broadside. b. Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 97, apparently from a Worcester broadside. c. Birmingham chap-book, of about 1843, in B. Harris Cowper's Apocryphal Gospels, p. xli. [Child says: "Mr Husk, who had access to a remarkably good collection of carols, afterwards unfortunately dispersed, had met with no copy of 'The Carnal and the Crane' of earlier date than the middle of the last century (1700)."]

DIVES AND LAZARUS—A
a. Sylvester, A Garland of Christmas Carols, p. 50, from an old Birmingham broadside. b. Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 94, from a Worcestershire broadside of the last century.

SIR PATRICK SPENS—A
a. Percy's Reliques, 1765, I, 71: "given from two MS. copies, transmitted from Scotland." b. Herd's Scots Songs, 1769, p. 243.
SIR PATRICK SPENS—B
Herd's MSS., II, 27, I, 49.
SIR PATRICK SPENS—H
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, III, 64, ed. 1803; I, 299, ed. 1833; "taken from two MS. copies, collated with several verses recited by the editor's friend, Robert Hamilton, Esq., Advocate." [Child says: "...H, was made up from two versions, the better of which was G, and five stanzas, 16-20, recited by Mr Hamilton, sheriff of Lanarkshire. Mr Hamilton is said to have got his fragment "from an old nurse, a retainer of the Gilkerscleugh family," when himself a boy, about the middle of the last century."]

SIR ALDINGAR—A
Percy MS., p. 68; Hales and Furnivall, I, 166. [1775]
SIR ALDINGAR—B
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, III, 51, 1803. Communicated to Scott by K. Williamson Burnet, of Monboddo, as written down from the recitation of an old woman, long in the service of the Arbuthnot family.

FAIR ANNIE—A
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 102, 1802, chiefly from the recitation of an old woman residing near Kirkhill, in West Lothian.
FAIR ANNIE—D
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 307.
FAIR ANNIE—E
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 20; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 371. [1783]

CHILD WATERS—A
Percy MS., p. 274; Hales and Furnivall, II, 269.
CHILD WATERS—B
a. Jamieson's Brown MS., fol. 22, taken down from Mrs Brown's recitation before 1783. b. A. Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 9, as recited by Mrs Brown in 1800.
CHILD WATERS—E
Harris MS., No 8, fol. 12 b: originally from Jannie Scott, an old nurse in Perthshire, about 1790.

FAIR JANET—C
Herd's Scots Songs, 1769, p. 303: I, 162, ed. 1776.

LADY MAISRY—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 24.

LORD INGRAM AND CHIEL WYET—C
Herd's MSS, I, 169, II, 84. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 265.

GLASGERION—A
Percy MS., p. 94; Hales and Furnivall, I, 248. [1765]

YOUNG HUNTING—A
a. Herd's MSS, I, 182; b. the same, II, 67.
YOUNG HUNTING—G
Herd's MSS, I, 34; Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 148.
YOUNG HUNTING—J
Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 42, 1802, and III, 184, 1833, from Herd's copies (A, G), and from tradition.

CLERK SAUNDERS—A
Herd's MSS, a, I, 177; b, II, 419.
CLERK SAUNDERS—B
Herd's MSS, a, I, 163; b, II, 46.

WILLIE AND LADY MAISRY—A
Motherwell's MS., p. 498; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 370. From the recitation of Mrs Notman, then far advanced in years, with whose grandmother it was a favorite: September 9, 1826.

LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—A
Percy's Reliques, 1765, II, 293, "given, with some corrections, from a MS. copy transmitted from Scotland."
LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET—D
Pepys Ballads, III, 316, No 312. b. A Collection of Old Ballads, I, 249, 1723. c. Ritson, Select Collection of English Songs, II, 187, 1783. d. Buchan's Gleanings, p. 86. e, f, g, h, i, recited copies.

FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—A
Douce Ballads, I, fol. 72. b. Ritson, A Select Collection of English Songs, 1783, II, 190. c. Percy's Reliques, 1765, III, 121. d. Percy's Reliques, 1767, III, 119.
FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—B
Communicated to Percy by the Dean of Derry, as written down from memory by his mother, Mrs Bernard; February, 1776.
FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM—C
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, April 7, 1770.

LORD LOVEL—A
Percy Papers, communicated by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, from singing; May 22, 1770, and April 19, 1775.

THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—A
Cochrane's Songbook, p. 151, No 114.

THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—B
Herd's MS, I, 144; II, 60, the first ten lines; Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 149.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—D
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 27; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 36.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—E
a. Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 2, written down from Mrs Brown's recitation in 1800. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 49, 1802.
THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL—F
Herd MS., I, 31, II, 65.

SWEET WILLIAM'S GHOST—A
Ramsay's Tea Table Miscellany, "4th volume, 1740;" here from the London edition of 1763, p. 324.
SWEET WILLIAM'S GHOST—B
Herd's MSS, I, 177, II, 49, stanzas 27 ff.

THE WIFE OF USHER'S WELL—A
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 111, 1802, from the recitation of an old woman residing near Kirkhill, in West Lothian.

OLD ROBIN OF PORTINGALE
Percy MS., p. 90; Hales and Furnivall, I, 235.

LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—A
Wit Restord, 1658, in the reprint 'Facetiæ,' London, 1817, I, 293. b. Wit and Drollery, 1682, p. 81.
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—B
Percy MS., p. 53, Hales and Furnivall, I, 119.
LITTLE MUSGRAVE AND LADY BARNARD—C
a. Pepys Ballads, I, 364, No 187. b. Pepys Ballads, III, 314, No 310. c. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 146. d. Roxburge Ballads, III, 340. e. Bagford Ballads, I, 36.

THE BONNY BIRDY
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 42; Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 162.

CHILD MAURICE—A
Percy MS., p. 346; Hales and Furnivall, II, 502.


CHILD MAURICE—B
Motherwell's MS., p. 255; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 282. From the singing of Widow McCormick, Paisley, January 19, 1825. Learned by her of an old woman in Dumbarton: Motherwell's Note Book, fol. 4.
CHILD MAURICE—C
Motherwell's MS., p. 510, from the singing of Mrs Storie, wife of William Storie, laborer, Lochwinnoch. A song of Mrs Storie's grandmother. [See Child's end notes for this ballad]
CHILD MAURICE—D
Motherwell's MS., p. 480, from the recitation of Widow Michael, a very old woman, as learned by her in Banffshire seventy years before. August, 1826. [Child's notes]
CHILD MAURICE—E
Motherwell's MS., p. 165; Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 269. From the recitation of Mrs Thomson, Kilbarchan, seventy years of age, as learned from her mother at the Water of Leven, Dumbarton, when she was ten years old. March, 1825. [Child's notes]
CHILD MAURICE—F
Percy's Reliques, III, 93, 1765. b. Letter of T. Gray to Mason, June, 1757 (?): Gray's Works, ed. Gosse, II, 316.
CHILD MAURICE—G
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 18; Jamieson, in The Scots Magazine, 1803, LXV, 698, stanzas 1, 3.

BONNY BARBARA ALLAN—A
a. The Tea-Table Miscellany, IV, 46, ed. 1740; here from the London edition of 1763, p. 343. b. Percy's Reliques, III, 131, ed. 1765, "with a few conjectural emendations from a written copy."
BONNY BARBARA ALLAN—B
a. Roxburghe Ballads, II, 25; reprint of the Ballad Society, III, 433. b. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 522. c. A broadside formerly belonging to Bishop Percy. d. Percy's Reliques, 1765, III, 125.

YOUNG JOHNSTONE—A
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 305.

FAUSE FOODRAGE—A
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 3.
FAUSE FOODRAGE—C
Harris MS., No 18, fol. 22: derived from Jannie Scott, an old Perthshire nurse, about 1790.

JELLON GRAME—A
a. A. Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 4. b. Scott's Minatrelsy, II, 20, 1802.

FAIR MARY OF WALLINGTON—A
Lovely Jenny's Garland, three copies, as early as 1775, but without place or date.
FAIR MARY OF WALLINGTON—B
Herd's MSS: a, I, 186; b, II, 89.
FAIR MARY OF WALLINGTON—C
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 5.

BONNY BEE HOM—A
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 6.

LAMKIN—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 176, communicated by Mrs Brown.
LAMKIN—F
a. Notes and Queries, Second Series, II, 324, as sung by a nurse nearly a century ago [1856] in Northumberland. b. Notes and Queries, Fourth Series, II, p. 281, from Northamptonshire, communicated by Mr B. H. Cowper.
LAMKIN—K
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent, April 19, 1775.
LAMKIN—P
Herd's MSS, I, 25.

YOUNG WATERS
Percy's Reliques, 1765, II, 172.

THE MAID FREED FROM THE GALLOWS—A
Communicated to Percy, April 7, 1770, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wey, from oral tradition.

THE GAY GOSHAWK—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., No 6, pt 15.
THE GAY GOSHAWK—E
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 7, 1802; III, 151, 1833.

BROWN ROBIN—A
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 37. b. Abbotsford MS., "Scottish Songs."

BROWN ADAM—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 17.
JOHNIE SCOT—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 5.

WILLIE O WINSBURY—B
Herd's MSS, I, 29; II, 98.
WILLIE O WINSBURY—D
Communicated to Percy by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wey, apparently in 1775. "This I had from the spinning-wheel."

WILLIE O DOUGLAS DALE—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 8.

WILLIE AND EARL RICHARD'S DAUGHTER—A
Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 44, from Mrs Brown's recitation.

ROSE THE RED AND WHITE LILY—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 1.

THE BAILIFF'S DAUGHTER OF ISLINGTON
Printed for P. Brooksby, Roxburghe Ballads, II, 457. b. Printed for J. Walter, Douce Ballads, II, fol. 229. c. Printed for P. Brooksby, Pepys Ballads, III, 258, No 256. d. Printed for P. Brooksby, Roxburghe Ballads, IV, 56. e. Printed for P. Brooksby, Douce Ballads, II, fol. 230. f. An Aldermary Churchyard copy.

THE FAMOUS FLOWER OF SERVING-MEN
Wood, E. 25, fol. 75, Bodleian Library. b. Pepys, III, 142, No 140, Magdalen College Library, Cambridge. c. A Collection of Old Ballads, I, 216, 1723.

WILL STEWART AND JOHN—A
Percy MS., p. 428; Hales and Furnivall, III, 216.

CHRISTOPHER WHITE
Percy MS., p. 513; Hales and Furnivall, III, 494.

TOM POTTS—A
Percy MS., p. 409; Hales and Furnivall, III, 135.
TOM POTTS—B
a. London, printed for F. Coles, and others, 1677, Bodleian Library, Wood, 259. b. Pepys Penny Merriments, I, 189, Magdalen College Library, Cambridge.
TOM POTTS—C
A white letter sheet in five columns, "published May 29, 1657," The King's Pamphlets, British Museum, 669, f. 20, 55.

THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—A
a. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 160, 161. b. The same, II, 30, 31. [1765]
THE KNIGHT AND SHEPHERD'S DAUGHTER—K
Motherwell's MS., p. 226. From the recitation of Widow McCormick, Westbrae, Paisley, 1825; learned of an old woman in Dumbarton, thirty or forty years before.

CROW AND PIE
MS. Rawlinson, C. 813, fol. 27 b, beginning of the sixteenth century. Halliwell's Nugæ Poeticæ, p. 42.

THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—A
Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia, or, The Second Part of Musick's Melodie, or Melodious Musicke, etc., E 4, London, 1609. Ritson's Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 159. b. Pills to Purge Melancholy, III, 37, 1719.
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—B
Pills to Purge Melancholy, V, 112, 1719.
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—C
a. A Collection of Old Ballads, III, 178, 1725. b. Pepys Ballads, V, 169 ff, Nos 162-164, end of the 17th century, the first fifty stanzas. c. Douce Ballads, III, fol. 52 b, Durham: Printed and sold by I. Lane. d. Roxburghe Ballads, III, 674, 1750 (?).
THE BAFFLED KNIGHT—D
a. Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots, p. 328, 1769. b. Dixon, Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England, p. 123, Percy Society, vol. xvii; Bell, p. 80.

A few additions:

THE LAIDLEY WORM from The Rev. Robert Lambe to Percy, January 29, 1766
THE LAIDLEY WORM/"THE HAGG WORM" (Additions & Corrections) from Capt. E. Grow, from "an old woman" (1775?)

As you can see, I have included a few 19th century references when they mention "really old" people as sources, if the math seems to work. I may have missed some of these and confused others. I am not familiar with any of the sources that Child is dealing with here, and I am going strictly from his information. Please forgive and correct any really gross errors and colossal stupidities! And please continue to correct other errors and feel free to make helpful suggestions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for the corrections and suggestions, Brian & Steve. I'm working from the Dover addition at the moment. I had trouble using the online additions, so I'm back to my old paperback set. I am using the UVA site to print off the information that I am using. It is here:

http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=chadwyck_ep/uvaGenText/tei/chep_1.1504.xml;brand=default;

When I get through the whole business, I'll try to go back and clean some of this up with your suggestions. Thanks

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:08 PM

Steve, I did find GGG online, but it was the 1810 edition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:26 PM

John
You should add in the 17thc broadside for No.20. which Child gave in a later vol. Are you working from the Loomis edition or the Dover or an earlier edition? If you're using Dover like me you should check the appendixes as well. It wouldn't take long.

There are lots of late 18thc garland versions of Captain Wedderburn's Courtship, mostly using the title 'Lord Roslin's Daughter' or similar.

I'm also pretty certain there are several printings of Young Beichan from the 18th century in garlands.

Brian,
I have access to a version of GGG but it's on a lengthy disc and may take some finding. I seem to remember there's at least one edition online, Goole Books or Gutenberg or one of the universities. I'll have a look anyway. The one I have access to is more likely to be the earlier edition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:29 AM

"They were around, but were they known or buried in a manuscript somewhere?"

'The Twa Sisters' was in Anna Brown's repertoire, which gives us a 'sighting' in 1783. Given the subsequent popularity of the ballad, it would be remarkable if it had not been widespread in Scotland in the 18th century. Most of the North American variants, though, follow the 'Bow down' refrain pattern which I would associate more with England.

Re 'The Elfin Knight', does anyone (Steve?) know whether 'The Cambrick Shirt' appeared for the first time in the 1810 printing of 'Gammer Gurton's Garland' (as referenced by FJC), or the 1783 printing - as claimed in certain places on the web?

Bronson printed several 18th century tunes connected to 'The Elfin Knight' by the refrain 'My plaid awa', although he was cautious about making a definite connection bewteen these and Child 2.

I realise this is an obvious point but, since so few people were actually looking for ballads in the 18th century, it doesn't surprise to me that few were found in that period.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:23 PM

The THE ELFIN KNIGHT—A, ERLINTON—C, THE TWA SISTERS—A, JUDAS, and KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—B all come from an earlier period and are not actually attested to in the 18th century. They were around, but were they known or buried in a manuscript somewhere? Some of the earliest versions don't seem to have been actually "discovered" until the 19th century. I would choose not to count these five versions in the 18th century, which means that we don't have documentation for "The Elfin Knight" or "Judas" as actually being known in the 1700s.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:13 PM

Going back to Child, himself, here is what I have found from the 18th century in Volume 1:


RIDDLES WISELY EXPOUNDED—A
d. Pills to Purge Melancholy, iv, 130, ed. 1719.

THE ELFIN KNIGHT—A
A broadside in black letter, "printed, I suppose," says Pinkerton, "about 1670," bound up with five other pieces at the end of a copy of Blind Harry's 'Wallace,' Edin. 1673, in the Pepysian Library.

WILLIE'S LADY—A
a. A copy, by Miss Mary Fraser Tytler, of a transcript made by her grandfather from William Tytler's manuscript. b. Jamieson-Brown MS., No 15, fol. 33. [from Mrs Brown in 1783]

ERLINTON—C
Gutch's Robin Hood, ii, 345, from a MS. of Mr. Payne Collier's, supposed to have been written about 1650.

THE FAIR FLOWER OF NORTHUMBERLAND—A
a. Deloney's Pleasant History of John Winchcomb, 9th ed., London, 1633, reprinted by Halliwell, p. 61. b. Ritson's Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 169.

THE TWA SISTERS—A
A. a. Broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591. b. Wit Restor'd, 1658, "p. 51," p. 153 of the reprint of 1817. c. Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87, = Dryden's Miscellany, Part 3, p. 316, ed. 1716. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315.
THE TWA SISTERS—B
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 39. b. Wm. Tytler's Brown MS., No 15. c. Abbotsford MS., "Scottish Songs," fol. 21. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48. [Brown 1783]
THE TWA SISTERS-Y
Communicated to Percy, april 7, 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent: "taken down from the mouth of the spinning-wheel, if I may be allowed the expression."

THE CRUEL BROTHER—G
a. Herd's MSS, i, 41. b. Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, i, 88.

LORD RANDAL—A
From a small manuscript volume lent me by Mr William Macmath, of Edinburgh, containing four pieces written in or about 1710, and this ballad in a later hand. Charles Mackie, August, 1808, is scratched upon the binding.
LORD RANDALL-S
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent, April 19, 1775; taken down by a friend of Mr Parsons "from the spinning-wheel, in Suffolk."

EDWARD—B
Percy's Reliques, 1765, i, 53. Communicated by Sir David Dalrymple.

BABYLON; OR, THE BONNIE BANKS O FORDIE—B
Herd's MSS, i, 38, ii, 76. b. The Scots Magazine, Oct., 1803, p. 699, communicated by Jamieson, and evidently from Herd's copy. [Child: "B a is from tradition of the latter half of the eighteenth century; the other copies from the earlier part of this."]

SIR LIONEL—A
Percy MS., p. 32, Hales and Furnivall, i, 75. [1765, 1794]

THE CRUEL MOTHER—A
Herd's MSS, i, 132, ii, 191: Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, ii, 237.
THE CRUEL MOTHER—B
Johnson's Museum, p. 331. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1803, iii, 259, preface. [Child: "Two fragments of this ballad, A, B, were printed in the last quarter of the eighteenth century;..."]

THE MAID AND THE PALMER—A
Percy MS., p. 461. Furnivall, iv, 96.

ST. STEPHEN AND HEROD
Sloane MS., 2593, fol. 22 b, British Museum. [15th century] Child says: Ritson gave the piece as 'A Carol for St Stephen's Day,' in Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 83,..."

JUDAS
MS. B. 14, 39, of the thirteenth century, library of Trinity College, Cambridge, as printed in Wright & Halliwell's Reliquiæ Antiquæ, i, 144.

THE THREE RAVENS
a. Melismata. Musicall Phansies. Fitting the Court, Cittie, and Countrey Humours. London, 1611, No 22. [T. Ravenscroft.] Child says: "printed by Ritson, in his Ancient Songs, 1790,...."

BURD ELLEN AND YOUNG TAMLANE
Maidment's North Countrie Garland, 1824, p. 21. Communicated by R. Pitcairn, "from the recitation of a female relative, who had heard it frequently sung in her childhood," about sixty years before the above date. [1764]

THE BOY AND THE MANTLE
Percy MS., p. 284: Hales and Furnivall, II, 304.

KING ARTHUR AND KING CORNWALL
Percy MS., p. 24. Hales and Furnivall, I, 61; Madden's Syr Gawayne, p. 275.

THE MARRIAGE OF SIR GAWAIN
Percy MS., p. 46. Hales & Furnivall, I, 105; Madden's Syr Gawayne, p. 288; Percy's Reliques, ed. 1794, III, 350.

KING HENRY
The Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 31. b. Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, 1802, II, 132.

KEMP OWYNE—B
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 29. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 93, 1802, from William Tytler's Brown MS., No 9, "with corrections from a recited fragment."

THE LAIDLEY WORM OF SPINDLESTON HEUGHS
A View of Northumberland, by W. Hutchinson, Anno 1776

ALLISON GROSS
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 40.

THOMAS RYMER—A
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 1: Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 7.
THOMAS RYMER—C
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 251, ed. 1802. [Child says: "A is one of the nine ballads transmitted to Alexander Fraser Tytler by Mrs Brown in April, 1800, as written down from her recollection."]

THE WEE WEE MAN—A
Herd's MSS, I, 153, Herd's Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 95.

TAM LIN—A
Johnson's Museum, p. 423, [1792] No 411. Communicated by Robert Burns.
TAM LIN—B
Glenriddell's MSS, vol. xi, No 17. [1791]
TAM LIN—C
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 300.

CLERK COLVILL—A
From a transcript from William Tytler's Brown MS.
CLERK COLVILL—B
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 302: ed. 1776, I, 161.

KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—A
Percy MS., p. 184. Hales and Furnivall, I, 508.
KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—B
Broadside, printed for P. Brooksby, at the Golden Ball in Pye-corner (1672-95).

CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—A
a. Herd's MS., I, 161. b. The same, II, 100.
CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—B
Kinloch MSS, I, 83, from Mary Barr's recitation. b. Lord Roslin's Daughter's Garland. c. Buchan's MSS, II, 34. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 159. e. Harris MS., fol. 19 b, No 14, from Mrs Harris's recitation. f. Notes and Queries, 2d S., IV, 170, "as sung among the peasantry of the Mearns," 1857. [from Child: "Jamieson writes to the Scots Magazine, 1803, p. 701: " Of this ballad I have got one whle copy and part of another, and I remember a good deal of it as I have heard it sung in Morayshire when I was a child."]

? PROUD LADY MARGARET—A
Scott's Minstrelsy, III, 275, ed. 1803. Communicated "by Mr Hamilton, music-seller, Edinburgh, with whose mother it had been a favorite."

YOUNG ANDREW
Percy MS., p. 292. Hales and Furnivall, II, 328.

THE BONNY HIND
Herd's MSS, II, fol. 65. "Copied from the mouth of a milkmaid, by W. L, in 1771."

YOUNG BEICHAN—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 13. [Child says: "Mr. Macmath has ascertained that Mrs Brown was born in 1747. She learned most of her ballads before she was twelve years old, or before 1759. 1783, or a little earlier, is the date when these copies were taken down from her singing or recitation."]
YOUNG BEICHAN—B
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 80. [1791]
YOUNG BEICHAN—C
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 11, [c. 1783] b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 127.

Please feel free to help me correct any mistakes that you might find.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:22 PM

Jonathan,
I know you weren't criticising academics, and I didn't mean to imply that you were. I don't know any of the American posters on Ballad List personally so I'm not fully aware who is and who isn't an academic there, although going by the depth of knowledge I presume most of them are.

In the last 50 years this side of the pond we have had university departments that majored on folk material, but Child Ballads have not really featured in these. As I said the only one I can think of currently entertaining anyone with Child Ballad knowledge is Aberdeen, and even then it's mainly academics like Tom McKean, Emily Lyle, David Atkinson and Julia Bishop working in association on such as publishing and the Carpenter Collection.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:01 PM

Steve, I wasn't criticizing academics - merely emphasizing how hard it is to find comprehensive knowledge of the subject of Child ballads.

When I started college back in the Neolithic, it seemed as though the study of English-language folklore and folksong was becoming an notable field in the liberal arts.

Since then, academic interest appears to have declined sharply, though obviously it hasn't disappeared entirely, at least in the U.S.   (The songs and lore of other cultures is much more actively studied, as always, but under the heading of anthropology.)

Have you noticed how few people, academics included, actually post to the Ballad Forum List? Undoubtedly there are many more lurkers, and some of the leading experts are probably too busy to post, but the fact seems to be that ballad knowledge generally is surprisingly rare.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:39 PM

You're absolutely right, Jonathan, but the academics are more likely to know what is available than the rest of us. I'm no academic, but I've been made very welcome on the Indiana List, which is why I've suggested it. Not everyone on the list is a folk academic.

I'm sure Brian will tell you there are very few academic and non-academic people in Britain with even a rough working knowledge of the Child Ballads. Off the top of my head the only institution in Britain I can think of that has academics attached who are involved in Child Ballad research is The Elphinstone Institute at Aberdeen University. Yes, there are a few other solitary academics out there but they are few and far between. There are I would say, as one would expect, many more in America, and possibly even more on the Continent.

Thanks for the links, John. I share your interest in early versions. Most of the Child Ballads were around before 1800, at least on broadsides if not in manuscript collections. Those that weren't are generally around the later numbers 241 onwards and Child knew that many of these were of dubious lineage/origin.

The answer to 2 can be largely gleaned from Child's ESPB itself.

And 3 is currently being worked on by the OP of this thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:37 PM

And they don't know much about them either. It's a very narrow and specialized field.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:20 PM

Even in academia, few people know anything about more than the handful of "classic" Child ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:13 PM

I wanted to add say that I found the lists by Lindahl very helpful for pre-18th century ballads in the Child Collection, and also the article by Dani Zweig on "Early Child Ballads". Here is Lindahl's information as posted above by Mick Pearce:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/child.html

As well as Lindahl's "Sixteenth Century Ballads: A work in progress" :

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/

And here is the article by Dani Zweig, with some very helpful information about Child ballads in the 18th century:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/early_child/#partii

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 11:15 AM

Steve, I appreciate your suggestion that the Indiana Ballad List serve might be able to help answer some of these questions. I have not followed up on this yet for several reasons. I think I assumed, perhaps falsely, that the information I was looking for here was straightforward and probably fairly common knowledge by now, at least in those circles which have continued to have serious interest in the "Child" ballads. And I suppose that I have been spoiled by all of the wonderful access to obscure information now being provided on the internet by things like Google and Google Books. So, I did not really expect this to be a complicated query. And, I know from past experience that there are certainly folks on Mudcat that are familiar in some depth with these kinds of concerns. I prefer to explore these issues in this somewhat more accessible venue with a broader base than what one finds on an academic list service. I should say that I am not an academic and that I make no claims to being any kind of scholar when it comes to ballads. And I would also say that while I've never joined the ballad list service, I have listened in on this discussion occasionally and I have not always been excited by the results of academic conversations. I would also assume that there are folks here on Mudcat who also are a part of the Indiana Ballad List, and that if they happened to see this thread and were aware of useful information from that other venue, they would have perhaps made that available here.

But maybe my assumptions are not very accurate. I do know that there are people on Mudcat that can address these kinds of questions as well as anybody anywhere else can. Whether or not they have noticed this thread or are interested in participating in this discussion is another matter.

I have basically asked three questions so far, which I would assume are basic to any study of the so-called "Child" ballads in America:

1. Can any of these ballads be documented as being present in America in the 18th century (1700s), and especially can any of them be documented as being here in America prior to 1775 and the beginning of the American Revolution?

2. Which of the Child ballads have been documented in the Child Collection itself as having been around in England, Scotland and/or Ireland in the 1700s?

3. And, what is the "latest" available tally on Child Ballads that have been found in America, other than contemporary "covers" that have been recorded of these songs? Is there anything more recent than Coffin's study and it's update?

I had assumed that there would be obvious listings for these latter two questions and that someone would surely have conveniently published them online somewhere and they would be easily accessible. I am still hoping that this is the case. I don't want to have to, and I am certainly not expecting anyone else to, go through the Child Canon and read the fine print and pull out all of the examples of ballads collected in the 1700s. That's a lot of work and I had assumed that it had already been done. If not, why not? Is that time frame not an important one?

And I am fairly certain that there must be updated lists of all known Child ballads found in America. I may even have them in my own printed files. I was being internet lazy on this one and hoping someone could more or less instantly produce such a list. I know there have been some regional studies, but are there recent studies that include all of North America in a more comprehensive assessment? Have there been any significant discoveries of additional ballads in the last fifty years? And have there been significant critical revisions of earlier discoveries, such as any number of those examples that show up in the John Jacob Niles' collection?

Maybe no one has actually tabulated the documentation for the existence of these ballads in 18th century America. Again, if not, why not? Is this not important information? Once again, I know that just because there is no written evidence that this does not conclusively prove that something didn't exist. But I also know that we can't get anywhere these days in a discussion of this material without some kind of written documentation. We can make general assumptions that probably should and maybe do hold true, but when we build arguments on this basis we float off into thin air fairly quickly. For now, if I can't actually document the presence of a particular ballad in North America in the 1700's before the American Revolution from the historical literature, I am going to have to assume that it probably, for all practical purposes, simply was not here.

I really don't want to get into all of the very difficult debates about "oral" and "written" traditions. I am aware of how complicated this discussion is in a number of different areas and disciplines. I would be happy with some written and datable documentation of anecdotal family or community oral traditions. But at some point, even this needs to be written down. I don't have the capacity to go and personally interview survivors of such oral traditions. And when I have had the opportunity to talk to such folks, I find that I am on fairly thin ice almost immediately. Oral traditions seem to remain "oral" for reasons of political, religious or personal control. To keep something exclusively oral today is perhaps to do so for exclusionary purposes. You see, how murky this gets almost immediately when I try to discuss it at all. I am not proposing discussions in this direction. I'm simply looking for some straightforward historical, factual data, on what's available at this point.

It may also be the case that I don't know how to conduct data searches on existing websites where this kind of information might be found. I have checked out all of the websites suggested but have not found a way to gather the data other than one bit at a time. I would welcome suggestions here.

If these things that I have inquired about above are not readily at hand, that's good to know, and at some point the work will yet be done. I'm not going to have the time to do that work myself at this point, nor am I asking anyone else to do it. I will continue to wonder why it hasn't been done by now.

And if not on Mudcat, why not?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:08 PM

John, Richie,
3rd time I've made this suggestion but the people best placed to answer your queries are on the Indiana Ballad List. They've been studying these things for a long time and have access to a lot more than we have on this side of the pond.

Brian, I saw Steve on Thursday and he has corrected the online site regarding the misplaced 'Lady and Dragoons' now. He sends his thanks.

Richie, if you find any errors please PM me with them and I'll pass them on, or of course contact Steve direct. He would be glad to correct any errors.

I've now got a working scanner so let me know if you want any Flanders versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 06:11 PM

Mick, thanks very much for that research. So, can anybody add anymore documented "Child' ballads found in America before 1800?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 04:35 PM

I've done a quick search on my copy of the Roud database. I've got 483 entries from the USA with a given date > 1950. The latest in my copy is 1986. As we've noted before, this probably includes duplicate entries. If you'd like a list I can probably make one (though not today!). As I mentioned above, my copy of the index is about 10 years old, so there may well be later entries. (It would be nice if the online VWML copy allowed date range searches rather than a single value. I did try putting in >1950, but got 1950 entries; Derek if you're reading, there's a suggestion!).


As far as the earliest sources, my copy yielded the following:

The earliest is 1790c - Chevy Chase, and is tune only, Bronson 10th tune for it.

The next is 1795 and is one of the 3 songs from the log of the Joseph Francis from Huntington - The Knight and the Shepherd's Daughter.

After that you're up to 1823.


Btw, the Roud index doesn't classify the 1768 Turkish Lady (also from Huntington, mentioned above by Richie) as a Child ballad.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 01:14 PM

There are also some American versions in the online Lomax collection: Lomax - Child Ballads (though many are from the UK).


I also did a quick search on the Roud index for Place:USA and Other Number:Child. It returned 8414 entries. This was using the online copy at VWML. If you give me a bit of time, I'll try and run a better search on my own copy (it's not been updated recently, so there probably won't be as many entries), and I should be able to get some idea of the count for each and maybe first and last dates available in the index.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 12:22 PM

Richie, thanks for the update on your work, and for Coffin's list (actually Coffin's discussion as well!). And thanks for the suggestions on where to look.

And Mick, thanks for reminding me about the Max Hunter collection. I have Coffin in several varieties and recognize him as a baseline for the middle of the last century (can you believe that! - it used to be that "the middle of the last century" referred to 1850 and not 1950!). I was hoping for an update. I think Bronson would at least update the list through the 1960's but that still leaves us in the middle of the last century.

I can start by comparing Coffin and Lindahl. Let me say, that I am not particular about whether or not a particular ballad "came over with the Scots-Irish" or with somebody else. In our discussion of "The Demon Lover"/"The House Carpenter" in the Northeast, we came across some suggestions about Scottish (not "Scots-Irish") influence on this ballad in North America, possibly prior to the broadside publication in 1858-60 by De Marsan. The suggestion was that it might have come over with the Scottish tobacco traders to the coastal ports and then later to the more inland tobacco trading posts.

In any case, I don't care how a ballad got here or who brought it. I'm just interested at this point in what might have been here before 1800, and especially before 1775 and the American Revolution.   Of course any specific additional information is always welcome.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 09:19 AM

John

Since the boy in the story was listening to them ride by I presume it was the tune he recognised. It was used for other songs but at least he recognised it by the Chevy Chase title.


I had a quick look for a current list of Child Ballads found in America without success (though you'd imagine someone had made one; perhaps someone on the ballad list is keeping track). You could start with Coffin - he goes through them and (as far as I remember) lists the ones not found at the time (1950). You could start from there and try and see if any of the missing ones had been found since. (eg Child Ballads in Max Hunter. These were collected between 56 and 76 so could have found some missing in Coffin).

(You can find a copy of Coffin at archive.org: The British Traditional Ballad in North America).


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 09:00 AM

Here's the lastest list from 1950 by Coffin: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/a-critical-biographical-study.aspx

I haven't finished proofing this page yet. There are a couple missing, for example 52. King's Dochter Lady Jean

The only known traditional US version of this ballad titled "Queen Jane" was sung by Sara Cleveland. It was recorded by Sandy Patton in the early 1960s.

I think published an updated edition later. Reed Smith did some early lists.

I've only made it to No. 63. It seems that most of the ballads so far date back to the 1700's in Scotland/England.

The most likely sources of 1700s Child ballads in the US would seem to be old periodicals, newspapers, diaries, and family histories. New bits of information will pop up from time to time- you have to realize that ballad scholars and those interested in ballads have been looking for this information already- and it seems to be lacking.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 08:49 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 08:22 AM

Mick, thanks for the "Chevy Chase" reference. Is it possible that this reference is to a fiddle or fife tune instead of the ballad?

Also, everyone, what is the latest and most comprehensive listing of all of the different "Child" ballads that have been found in North America? Does someone have this handy?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 09:55 AM

You might also look at Coffin: British Traditional Ballads in North America, where he discusses the main variants of the ballads found in America.

I did a quick skim through the other day, but as far as I can see there's nothing about early US printed sources. (Though under The Hunting of the Cheviot he does give an anecdote that refers to a publication of 1788 where a boy mentions the name Chevy Chase as some soldiers are riding through to the tune of Yankee Doodle: The history of the rise, progress, and establishment of the United States of America - Gordon, 1788, p481).

It's also possible, from something I read in Coffin, that Barry British Ballads from Maine might have something to say on early versions in the US. But I'm not clear enough and I don't have a copy. (Richie's site has info on Barry and some articles I think).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 09:17 AM

Richie, thanks for the Huntington reference. I really appreciate the huge job of fine work that you are doing gathering up all of this information. Anything else you come across from the 1700's would be welcome.

Mick, thanks for the reference to Lindahl. That looks very helpful. And I am interested in the tunes!

And Brian, thanks for the discussion on "Earl Brand". It occurs to me, without having looked at the specifics in Sharp's collection, that North Georgia is not so very far away from Madison County NC, [about a three week hike on the Appalachian Trail] and that sometimes there were family migrations that took place. For instance, Sam Harmon, who settled in Cades Cove, Tennessee, near Maryville, came from Beech Mountain, NC, and his music is definitely connected to the Beech Mountain history [see the work of Frank & Ann Warner, and Sandy Paton]. The same is true of Jane Gentry in Hot Springs, NC, who was also from the Beech Mountain area and was related to Sam Harmon. Long ago, I had some discussion of this on the "Wild Boar" thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=50640

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 08:51 AM

"I've had a quick flick through online and yes there are about half a dozen versions out of 223 that have slipped through the net."

Happy to be of service. The Roud index is such a monumental undertaking that the only way the glitches are going to be discovered is when a researcher is looking at the fine detail.

The reason I was looking at 'Earl Brand' in detail was to follow the line of research suggested by Steve G, "to look at a collection such as Sharp/Campbell, selecting examples of ballads that have distict Scottish and English variants back in England."

If we exclude 'The Dragoon and the Lady' (and I quite agree that we should), that leaves only two copies from England: the White/Bell one from Northumberland (Child 7A - there are several alternative texts but it's basically the same piece) and the fragment from Percy (Child 7F). Neither of these seem to have any siginificant material in common with the various North American texts listed in Bronson (which of course includes Campbell and Sharp).

By contrast, there is plenty of of overlap between the American copies and the various Scots 'Douglas Tragedy' versions from Scott, Motherwell, Greig-Duncan, etc. The key lines in common (allowing for minor variation) are:

'Rise [wake] up you seven brothers [sleepers]'
(the following '...and put on your armour so bright' survives only occasionally).

'Light down, light down, lady Margaret he said
And hold my steed in your hand [for a while]
While I go and fight your seven brothers
And your father I make a stand [standing nigh, etc]'

'Hold your hand Lord William, she said
For your strokes are wondrous sore
True lovers i can get many a one
But a father I'll never get more'

'He's mounted her on a milk-white steed
Himself on a dapple grey
With a bugle [buckler] hanging by his side
And slowly [bleeding] they [he] rode away'

There are also verses in which she has to choose between family and lover, and in which she mops her father's blood, that keep cropping up on both sides of the ocean. The few versions from the Canadian Maritimes seem to be closer to the Scots than are the Appalachian versions. There's also a little clutch of Appalachian variants in which new details are added - Margaret's father's head falls at her feet in the battle, and a formulaic verse about the cock / chickens crowing (to establish a timeframe) is sometimes added. It would be neat to report that these versions all came from the Alleghany Mountains area around Allenstand, White Rock and Hot Springs (where Sharp and Karpeles began their collecting), but unfortunately there's a rogue variant collected by Olive Campbell in Georgia that has both elements.

I would conclude from the above that 'Earl Brand' almost certainly arrived in North America from Scotland, but that it was subject to subsequent oral veriation (the names get changed and so forth). Whether the father's rolling head and the crowing chickens suggest interpolations in a printed copy is something we can speculate about!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:37 AM

John - have a look at Greg Lindahl's Child Ballads page, where he lists the Child ballads with early sources.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:17 AM

Here is one of those rather large questions. Without reading all of the fine print, does somebody already know how many of the "Child" ballads are actually documented by/in Child himself as having been around in the 1800s? In taking a very casual and brief look at Richie's site last night, I kept coming up with dates in the 19th century. If I had a quick and easy list of those ballads that we know were documented in England, Scotland or Ireland in the 1700s, we could at least narrow down the list for what to look for over here in America.

This is not to say that it's not possible for an "earlier" version of a ballad to have survived in the "oral tradition" and gotten over to America before it showed up in print in England, etc. That would be an interesting find!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:16 AM

By the way Steve I've found some corrections for the Roud Index; can't remember them all now.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:11 AM

Hi,

There are several versions I've come across that go back to the 1700s if you assume the informant's information is correct- ie they learned it from their gramdmother who learned it from her mother. The dates of the ancestors can be traced through geneology records.

Finding written (published or printed) documentation is tough.

Check out Gale Huntington, Songs the Whalemen Sang (1964). I know The Turkish Lady, (an offshoot of Young Beichan/Lord Bateman) was known in 1768, when it was transcribed into the journal of the whaling ship Two Brothers.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:10 AM

Brian
I should of course add thanks for pointing this out.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:09 AM

Brian
I've had a quick flick through online and yes there are about half a dozen versions out of 223 that have slipped through the net. I'll tell Steve tonight.

The Roud Index, as you know, is a work in progress, and we would appreciate it if anyone comes across an error to either contact Steve or myself as soon as poss and we'll investigate and correct.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:22 PM

Re: taking this discussion private, I'll be very happy if you keep it going here. I'm sure there are others who, like me, enjoy following this kind of thread even if we can't add to it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 06:50 PM

Brian
All of the 'Bold Dragoons' should be under 321. How old is your version of Roud? I'll check the online version. If there aren't a lot in the wrong number it would be helpful to list them using the S numbers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 06:02 PM

John Minear,
Another approach would be to look at a collection such as Sharp/Campbell, selecting examples of ballads that have distict Scottish and English variants back in England. This could easily be done using Child. Then look at how distinct American versions have evolved and in this way draw up some conclusions as to how long they have likely been in oral tradition in these distinct forms. It could then be followed up by selecting versions of the same ballads in other American collections like Flanders. It wouldn't necessarily give any concrete proof but would possibly make good circumstantial evidence. Try, for instance The Cruel Mother, a ballad that seemingly originated on a London broadside but evolved into distinct versions in England, Scotland and Ireland.