 sj |
||
|
||
BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM Just attempting to clarify No 6 what you actually meant by the rather disingenuous question "If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians?" If you want my personal point of view then, it is somewhat in line with the article I linked - which btw, I hoped would open up the discussion a little beyond simplistic and completely unrealistic (not to mention somewhat provocative sounding) 'what if' scenarios! That is to say that, some time ago, I would have been on the side of a binational solution to the apparently intractable but accept that this is no longer a realitic proposal and would like to know more about the possibilitiy of a two state solution although the arguments for this from Blair, Bush, Condoleezza Rice etc don't particularly impress me However, I will retain the right to reply as I please and not how you wish to 'dictate' Bill, without apology, and post the argument for by Noam Chomsky, PhD, Professor of Linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in a Mar. 30, 2004 ZNet interview which does convince me to this 'solution' at the present time. "In the short term, the only feasible and minimally decent solution is along the lines of the international consensus that the US has unilaterally blocked for the last 30 years: a two-state settlement on the international border (green line), with 'minor and mutual adjustments,' in the terms of official US policy, though not actual policy after 1971... Perhaps in the longer term, as hostility and fear subside and relations are more firmly developed along non-national lines, there will be a possibility of moving towards a federal version of binationalism, then perhaps on to closer integration, perhaps even to a democratic secular state -- though it is far from obvious that that is the optimal arrangement for complex societies, there or elsewhere." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: freda underhill Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM This is a very good article about the legalities of what happened by Associate Professor Ben Saul of the Sydney Centre for International Law at The University of Sydney. Dr Saul teaches the law of armed conflict and has been involved in such cases in The Hague, the Israeli Supreme Court, and in the Balibo coronial inquest. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: freda underhill Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM Haaretz, one of the two main papers in Israel, has articles with a lot of soul searching about Israel government knee-jerk responses in justifying the atrocities. I too did not speak out |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: bobad Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:04 AM "This is John Robson, described as a 'conservative's conservative' writing for the Ottawa Citizen - part of the CanWest Global empire whose unconditional support for the Israeli governments actions and censorship of any dissenting journalistic view has been discussed elsewhere in this thread. 'nuff said!" If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: number 6 Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:00 AM Emma .... what I'm asking here is for posters to this thread what they would see as the outcome 'if' ... please no links, just your answers or ... what you feel the solution would be to all of this, and what you foresee of the solution's outcome .. again please no ever ending links. biLL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Mr Happy Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM Religion's not one've my religions, therefore I wait with baited breath to see world reaction to Rachel Corrie's progress, while strongly hoping, mentalising good wishes & bon voyage to the brave folks manning her [call it secular prayer?] |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM Bill - are you referring to a 'one state solution' for Palentinians and Jews? "Proponents of a binational solution to the conflict advocate a single state in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with citizenship and equal rights in the combined entity for all inhabitants of all three territories, without regard to ethnicity or religion." Wiki Israeli opponents argue that one state would erode the notion of Israel as a Jewish state. The main obstacle is the fact that demographic trends show the likelihood of a near-term majority Arab population west of the Jordan River (including the land within the internationally recognized borders of the state of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza). Polls have shown that the probability that Palestinians would constitute an electoral majority in a binational state is seen by many Israeli Jews as a threat to the very premise of Israel, which is imagined as a state for the Jews One-state solution a pipedream Thought provoking, balanced article in the Jewish press by Ray Hanania (an Arab-American journalist also known for his stand-up comedy) who describes himself as a 'moderate Palestinian' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: freda underhill Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM CarolC, it was an Australian photographer, Kate Geraghty, who hid The photos they didn't want seen in her underwear: "Four assault boats full of soldiers were chasing us and I knew they would board. I knew I just had to shoot as much as I could. With satellite communication jammed there was no way to transmit the images so I used gaffer tape to hide the micro SD cards on my body and in my clothes. Most of the Israeli boats sped away but a Zodiac stopped beside our boat and the commandos boarded. I was knocked to the ground, perhaps by a stun gun. I got up and a soldier lunged towards me and snatched my camera. Despite numerous searches, including a strip search, I saved three cards. The Israelis found three in my clothing, but I hung on to the others - two on my body and one in some personal gear" freda |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: number 6 Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:31 AM If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians ... what would the outcome and fate be for the current Jewish inhabitants? Would this Palestinian state be a democracy? Curious as what everyone would answer to these questions? biLL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:25 AM re Rationalizing homicidal aggression By John Robson, The Ottawa CitizenJune 4, 2010 This is John Robson, described as a 'conservative's conservative' writing for the Ottawa Citizen - part of the CanWest Global empire whose unconditional support for the Israeli governments actions and censorship of any dissenting journalistic view has been discussed elsewhere in this thread. 'nuff said! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Lox Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM Mr Happy, you are right. Unfortunately, unless red herrings are caught and shown to be the irrelevant distractions that they are, they can always be used to bolster preconceptions and prejudices. This can take time, but it is a chore that does have to be done. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Mr Happy Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:59 AM Does everyone understand the concept of 'going off at a tangent', that is, prevaricating on all sorts of associated issues leading away from the main topic [aka thread drift]? ******** For me [& I imagine lots others], the ultimate here & now situation is this: Thousands of innocent civilians in the Gaza Strip are being starved of food, medical supplies & other items necessary to maintain a reasonable quality of life. Attempts by aid orgs to alleviate the situation are being thwarted, confounded by the militaristic Israeli Empire builders [& I don't say that in any flippant or cynical way] who're backed by US & therefore can continue like this with the protection of Uncle Surely, we should be discussing & making suggestions as to how the situation can be addessed. That's another 2pennyworth, I'll get me poncho!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Lox Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:55 AM "My ruminations on this disquieting subject earlier this week were rudely interrupted by the latest news that Israeli efforts to inspect a convoy headed for Gaza resulted in pacifists attacking IDF members with clubs, knives and guns and getting shot." Except that there is no evidence that there were any knives or guns. "Admit it. If a convoy of activists insisted on bringing uninspected cargoes into North Korea, attacked customs officials who tried to inspect them and got killed, there would be no outcry." The activists and ships were inspected by customs officials in Turkey. If there had been any attempt to attack Turkish or Israeli customs officials the flotilla would have loast all credibility. So I for one will not agree with this bullshit assertion. Lets see what US ambassador Edward Peck has to say on the subject ... Peck |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: bobad Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM Rationalizing homicidal aggression By John Robson, The Ottawa CitizenJune 4, 2010 One major lesson of history is that humans are frequently vile chumps. Unfortunately, because we are the audience as well as the topic, the lesson often fails to sink in. I strongly suspect the same problem lies behind our frequent inability, or unwillingness, to draw obvious historical analogies. Presumably we all know exactly what to do the next time Hitler demands part of Czechoslovakia. But we nevertheless stare in bafflement, or worse, at North Korea or Hamas. Why? Consider this luminous passage about appeasement I just encountered while rereading Peter Calvocoressi and Guy Wint's 1972 book Total War for a seminar I'm teaching on America at war. "Hitler's ravings," the authors say, "were passed over and he was regarded as a man who would make bargains and stick to them because it was difficult to see what to do if he was really a totally different kind of person." Does this observation not shine a brilliant light on what's happening today, starting with Western regimes begging the Chinese government to help them do something about North Korea sinking a South Korean warship? I would not say Western governments are completely unwilling to understand the North Korean regime. It is so evidently insane you just look stupid denying it. On the other hand, our would-be statesmen consistently insist that the correct response to any North Korean behaviour, comparatively tame or psychotically violent, is restraint by us. Is it not clear that the North Korean regime does not react well to restraint? It may be objected with some justice that Pyongyang doesn't react well to anything, but, if it did, it wouldn't be to empty words or carefully harmless sanctions. That tyrannically insane government couldn't care less if the country's entire population starved to death, and they laugh at our reproaches. So what impact are mild sanctions or hollow condemnations meant to have? In short, Western policy toward North Korea is in substance (or lack thereof) driven by assumptions with nothing to recommend them except the difficulty of seeing what to do if they are unfounded. When it comes to the People's Republic of China, the problem is considerably more acute because China is both stronger and less clearly insane (though Hitler was pretty obviously demented and people didn't let it affect their judgment that he was reasonable). But China is unlikely to be a useful partner in reining in North Korea because the Chinese are its strongest backer. And they are its strongest backer because.... Oh dear. How very many unpleasant ways there are of finishing that sentence and how few pleasant ones. So we assume that China's rulers have limited, reasonable geopolitical ambitions and a fundamentally peaceful diplomatic orientation not because anything they ever do supports that assumption, but because it is difficult to see what to do if they are really totally different kinds of people. My ruminations on this disquieting subject earlier this week were rudely interrupted by the latest news that Israeli efforts to inspect a convoy headed for Gaza resulted in pacifists attacking IDF members with clubs, knives and guns and getting shot. Now it is perfectly obvious that Israel is not going to permit uninspected cargoes to enter Gaza and it is obvious why: Gaza is ruled by Hamas, which is sworn not only to destroy Israel, but also to exterminate Jews. (See, again, Article 7 of the Hamas Charter, where rocks and trees erupt in anti-Semitic fury.) No one but Israel would ever be asked to let such an entity import uninspected cargoes for murderous purposes; not only would Canada not permit it under similar circumstances, but also we would not ask Syria to stand for it, or North Korea. Admit it. If a convoy of activists insisted on bringing uninspected cargoes into North Korea, attacked customs officials who tried to inspect them and got killed, there would be no outcry. We'd soberly note that nations have a right to protect their borders, urge restraint, and perhaps make a grovelling submission to the Chinese government to help us persuade North Korea to shoot the next bunch with smaller calibre weapons. So what's the deal with Hamas? Why does the press insist on running headlines like "After deadly raid, Israel stands alone" and "Israel's alliances hit the hardest" and "Bloody Israeli raid on flotilla sparks crisis"? I'll tell you. It's because Western diplomats, politicians and journalists pass over Hamas's ravings and members of the convoy chanting about Muhammad's army coming to kill Jews and insist on regarding Hamas as an organization that will make bargains and stick to them because it is very difficult to see what to do otherwise. So what do we learn from history? So little that, if Hitler did demand the Sudetenland again, we'd probably give it to him. John Robson's column appears weekly. © Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:29 AM The spirit of Herzl lives on in modern Israel |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM I have no wish to divert this thread into detailed 'academic' byways or disputes again but just a brief comment about 'The Jewish state' Der Judenstaat or The Jewish State is a book written by Theodor Herzl, later hailed as the founder of the Zionist movement, published in 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna in which he describes in detail his vision of a Jewish state. It is interesting that Herzl opposed the efforts already made by Zionist groups to settle Jews in Ottoman-controlled Palestine, arguing that "important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened," Quoted from The Jewish State, translated by Sylvie d'Avigdor, Nutt, London, 1896, and reprinted by Dover, 1988) His last literary work Altneuland envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage Herzl did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there would be much respect for religion in the public sphere. He did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs as all non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel He directed his wrath against the nationalist party which wished to make the Jews a privileged class in Palestine. Herzl regarded that as a betrayal of Zion, for Zion was identical to him with humanitarianism and tolerance He also assumed that many languages would be spoken, but Hebrew would not be the main tongue. Proponents of a Jewish cultural rebirth, such as Ahad Ha'am were critical of Altneuland. The terms a 'Jewish State' and the 'State of Israel' are frequently used interchangeably including in the November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly resolution outlining the 'Future Constitution and Government of Palestine' "Hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in the land of Israel to be known as the State of Israel. …Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the "Ingathering of the Exiles" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Arnie Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM It will be interesting to see if any lessons have been learned when the aid vessel mv Rachel Corrie reaches Gazan waters on Saturday. The Israelis have vowed to intercept it, but have promised that they will act politely. That probably means using rubber bullets instead of live ammunition! My mother is of Jewish descent and has told me that I'm entitled to reside in Israel - that's an offer I definitely will not be taking up. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:28 AM ""This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do."" There's that blatant misrepresentation of fact again. The state is ISRAEL. It's citizens are ISRAELIS. Some Israelis are of the Jewish faith, and some are not. There is no such country as "The Jewish State". IT DOES NOT EXIST Can we now continue to discuss the act of PIRACY committed by the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT? Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:24 AM U.S. Jewish student loses eye at roadblock protest |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM ""Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live."" Translate that, if you will, to men with guns and international power coming to where you live and saying "we are relocating these victims of persecution, and your land has been chosen. They will not merely live within your community, they will rule it, and if you don't like it you can go live with relatives or friends elsewhere". How would you feel about that? Then imagine that these newcomers began to expand into larger and larger ares of your land, and pushed you back into the least productive corner, then set about starving you out. I strongly believe you would be out in the street with an AK 47 too. That is the situation in Palestine, and no amount of spin will change it. Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM This is tangentially related because it happened at one of the many demonstrations against the flotilla massacre... http://palsolidarity.org/2010/05/12604/ Not one peep that I could find about it in the US mainstream media, either. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM I've been seeing reports that one of the kidnapped aid workers managed to hide three memory chips with video of what happened in her underwear and will be releasing them today. I don't know if these reports are credible, but I'll post more as I find out. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Lox Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:31 AM "They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought." They are red herrings which distract us from the real issues. They are also based on mythology and heavily distorted historical sources. It would be like the Irish claiming to have a right to rule America as St Brendan was the first European to get there. A Red Herring, not provable and not even the most likely course of events. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: greg stephens Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM Crow Sister: you may say that rights to the land should not be able to be enforced 2000 years on. The trouble is, these 2000 year old bits of history are absoultely part of the present day politics. Israeli attitudes to Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon, and Palestinian attitudes to the same areas of land, and Islamic attitudes to the Dome of the Rock, are all current realities. They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so. I don't disagree with this. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:38 AM Aaagh! I'm causing more thread drift! Think I'll quit it there... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM CC "it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument," For the sake of this incident I think it's a moot point, though I totally get what your saying. However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so. No amount of supposed ancient ancestral ties to a land, can justify abusing innocent people. That's like you saying to me 'Once upon a time, my great great great granny probably lived in your village in England. So it's fine for me to come over there, kick you out of your house, and starve and beat you.' You could come up with documents that PROVE your great great great granny once lived in my village, but it wouldn't make any difference. I guess many people would simply disagree with that though. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: greg stephens Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:28 AM Could we be spared these Khazars? All we need now are the Knights Templar, the Illuminati and a few Cathars. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM Unfortunately it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument, and these are two things that make it much easier for them to be able to keep on doing what they've been doing, and much more difficult for anyone else to get them to stop. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:39 AM CC: "many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way." While Jewish people might *call upon* ancient historic ties to this land as a justification for inhumanitarian actions against the present indigenous peoples, any such call - irrespective of whether or not it might be provable - simply *doesn't* justify it. It's a moot point. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:26 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cQ69oKFtVg&feature=player_embedded |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:33 AM It was about this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swg-nFZS6so http://gazaflotillasurvivors.posterous.com/attack-came-in-three-phases-says-survivor-abb http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/06/putting-names-to-faces.html http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/03/mary-hughes-thompson-free-gaza-co-founder-flotilla-update-from-cyprus/ http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/did-israel-try-to-assassinate-sheikh-raed-sal |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: mousethief Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:44 AM What was this thread about, again? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM Looks to me like you haven't even bothered to read what was in the links, robomatic. And by the way, I didn't just post a link. I posted a link with information inside of it. And it's a hell of a lot more than Koestler, so we can all see that now you are just lying. Which doesn't really surprise me, since all you hasbaratchiks have to work with is lies. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: robomatic Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM Carol C wrote: I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic. What you're relying on is a link. Ain't nothin' there any more solid than Koestler's little book which was not anything like solid. You are relying on your standard tactics of locating links that agree with you and leaning on them HEAVILY. and little else other than slamming your tired tactics out again and again. But that's okay. Been there, done that with you before! And will again! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:36 PM Here's some more background on that subject... http://mideastfacts.org/facts/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=34 http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2007/07/no-rivkele-there-wasnt-roman-exile-of.html Paul Burke describes this accepted knowledge as controversial. It may be in countries like the US and the UK, but it is not regarded as being at all controversial in Israel. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM ...the one that you have been taught to believe |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM pdq, the Ashkenazim do not have any ties to the Middle East. The article I posted says that also. The Khazars did convert en mass. They had good reason to do so, because becoming Jewish was their ticket to having a better life than they would have if they didn't. It's all spelled out pretty clearly in the article. None of the article disputes anything I've said, and it's all very much in keeping with accepted common knowledge among Israeli academics. The carefully written scam is the one what you have been taught to believe. You should read that whole article. You've been fed a pack of lies your whole life. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Lox Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM McGrath you are 100% right. Unfortunately this point is a stumbling block in debates about Israel/Palestine. It is helpful to be able to clearly distinguish and identify red herrings so that we no longer have to waste time chasing them when they are repeatedly thrown in to the mix. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM What possible difference does it make if European Jews are descended from Turkic Khazars or from people who loived in the Holy Land two thousand years ago? In neither came does it give them any right to displace the people who were living there when they immigrated. Even in a literalistic reading of the Old Testament, in which the country was supposed to be gifted permanently to the descendants of Abraham, that would include Arabs every bit as much as Jews. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Lox Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM "An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do." No, a succesful and consistent demonstration that there is no historical precedent which entitled European Jews to evict and replace palestinians. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: pdq Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM "...many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins." ~ CarolC Fine, but you stared that all Khazars converted to Judaism. Some did, some did not. You implied that nearly all European Jews were of non-Semitic origin. Also not the case. This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do. Besides, how many countries exist by popular decree of the United Nations. As far as who comes to Israeal fter the majority of the world's nations recognized it, well, it's nobody else's buisness but the Israelis. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM Here you go, pdq... "The Himyar and Berber proselytes are overshadowed by the Khazars, who ruled from the fourth century, along the Volga, and in the eastern Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula and modern Georgia. The Silk Road and the Don and Volga gave the kingdom a rich and flourishing trade, and means for a powerful army. While the "spoken Khazar language consisted of Hunnic-Bulgarian dialects with others from the Turkic family," "[t]here is no doubt…that the Khazars' sacred tongue and written communication was Hebrew." The Khazars converted over time between the mid-eighth and mid-ninth centuries, and for the same reason "that accounted for Himyar's conversion…[t]he desire to remain independent in the face of mighty, grasping empires…Had the Khazars adopted Islam…they would have become subjects of the caliph. Had they remained pagan, they would have been marked for annihilation by the Muslims…Christianity, of course, would have subjected them to the Eastern Empire." Conversion began with the elite and included the larger population over time. Khazar Judaism was substantially rabbinical, though Kairate Judaism, a Protestant-like sect which regards the Hebrew Bible as solely authoritative, may have flourished also." http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/ By the way, the Khazars are not the only non-Jewish population that converted en mass to Judaism. There are others did as well, and they are discussed in that article. So many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM And by the way, you really can't separate that subject out from Israel's behavior towards the indigenous peoples of the Middle East, because Israel and many, many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM Paul, I didn't bring it up. PEACE did. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM Ok. In a minute. On another note... http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2/israels_explanation_for_deadly_gaza_aid |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM Carol: it's very simple. (1) We (most of us) are very much opposed to the Israeli state's actions of the last few days. (2) The origin of European Jews, while interesting, is not very relevant to that. (3) However, since you brung it up, some of us think your version is a bit controversial. (4) Let's talk about that stuff later. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: pdq Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:44 PM "The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him." ~ CarolC Please support that claim. And you know that all converted? Not even 12 that didn't? How about a few hundred? A few thousand? Perhaps most? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:38 PM Are all of you guys coordinating how you're going to come at me to try to poke holes in what I say? The way you do it is so predictable from one thread on this subject to another. You always do it the same way, and you almost always say the same things or use the same methods. Are you all working for the hasbara people? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM In answer to your question, though the Jews didn't all go to where the Khazars lived. The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him. Those Jews didn't all die out. Their descendants are the Ashkenazim - the European Jews of today. |
