BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

"I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed."

Specifics

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

Israel claims that Turkish-based IHH, responsible for the flotilla funds and finances Hamas initiatives(I believe that is listed in some countries as a terriorist group) around the world.

They cite sources, including this report:

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

I should rephrase that:

The point is that no matter what status one applies to Gaza, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM

The point is that no matter what status one applies to it, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM

I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM

Palestine isn't a nation. It's a territory completely subjugated by Israel. It is, in effect, a ghetto where all the Undesirables are contained as if in quarantine (great word, Ed). Israel pretends it's not part of Israel because if it were they'd have to extend the rights of citizens to its inhabitants. But it's not a state itself, and not part of any other state, and completely under the rule of Israel. What other country could it be?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

As to whether it is legal, I don't feel it has in fact been answered. It was clearly was a naval blockde, regardless of what you call it.   But, remember the USA called their naval blockade of Cuba a quarantine, to avoid United Nations criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

I can't argue with that, Ed, in practice. But it's still might makes right, which makes those who practice it no better than Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

In most cases the big guns make the international rules, and bend them to suite their interests. History is full of blockades, belligerent, Pacific and otherwise. Some have caused war, some reduced the liklihood of war, and many, like this one, have been punitive actions by a larger (more powerful) nation against a smaller, less powerful one...designed to make it give in to the larger nations interests.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

You asked if it was legal. I answered that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Nobody has yet answered my question: is there a blockade, or isn't there? If there is, it's nonsense to say Israel will pass through anything anybody wishes to send into Gaza. Well, actually it's not so much nonsense as a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

So you guys are saying that maritime law only applies to those whom the people with the most guns say it does. Interesting. You may be right. Of course, that is the "might makes right" ideology, and in that respect is no different from any other regime that practices it, including the ones we don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

The blockade is illegal under the Geneva conventions because it is a form of collective punishment.

There is also the problem of the legal status of Gaza. If it is under occupation by the government of Israel, it is an illegal occupation. If it is a part of Israel, it is illegal because it is illegal to take territory by force. If it is not under occupation, then Israel has no right to control its borders.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

"nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries".

And, to the contrary, many NATO and western nations have had direct experience in invading and blockading other countries, and killing those opposing such adventures.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:08 PM

I'd say that's irrelevant. No nation has clean hands; that doesn't make what Israel is doing okay. The whole "you're in no position to talk" thing just gives Israel carte blanche to undertake any atrocities it cares to. But then again the support of the US does much the same thing. As witness the last 50 years.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM

I would say that nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:00 PM

Was/is the blockade legal?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

As this certainly was not the first naval blockade of a nation, a good question is does international law permitted capturing a vessel attempting to breach a naval blockade, even in international waters? The answer may be surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:50 PM

Have to agree, Ed T, the Turks should have kept the hell out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Gee, who attacked whom? Did the blockade runners board the Israeli ships, or did the Israelis board the blockade runners' ships? There's your answer.

You're wrong, Spaw, there is a forseeable end to this, which Israel has been steadily working toward for 60 years. Chomp off larger and larger chunks of the West Bank until there's nowhere for the Palestinians to live and no way for them to make a living. They all go somewhere else. Then start doing the same for Gaza (if anybody is still alive there after the starvation blockade). Problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM

When I reflect on the Turkey, (Turks, Kurds and Armenians), I cannot put events of 1915 the G-word out of my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

Having said that, however, under international maritime law, the people on the flotilla ships had an absolute right to defend themselves against the Israeli invasion of their ships and their attempt to take them over. The act of boarding the ships without permission was in itself an act of aggression that is illegal under international maritime law.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

"The number is presently reported as 10 dead."

Depends on the report.

Doctors working on the scene have suggested as many as 15 died.

Early reports from ISRAELI media sources suggested 19.


"There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard."


The cameras can't see the bullets.

There is testimony that there were bullets flying before the troops landed.

Bear in mind that the Israelis imposed a blackout when they attacked, up until which pointthe flotilla had been entirely transparent in every respect.

The only secrecy has been that imposed by the Israeli military.

The Israelis can't imprison everyone who was on the ship.

So far they control all the information.

This will not last.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

The live feed shows people being attacked and it shows wounded members of the flotilla prior to any of the Israelis landing. The Israeli government video only shows what happened after they landed. The live feed shows what happened before they landed. This is indisputable proof that the Israelis opened fire before landing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Lox

The number is presently reported as 10 dead.

Too many, as all agree- but the determination of who attacked who is still to be determined. There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

If a blockade were imposed on Israel that would have the same legal status as the blockade by Israel on the Gaza strip.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM

"Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade."

And I pray that the Turkish Government and all other Governments, including the Israeli government, stay the hell out of it.

Israel can withstand any military assault - in fact any such offensive makes them stronger.

However they are powerless in the face of a transparent humanitarian campaign, and can have no answer to civil disobedience.

The key for Gaza is No-Violent Non-Cooperation.

Rachel Corrie may yet do some bulldozing of her own and help bring down the wall from beyond the grave.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

"Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????"

Execution?

How many Israelis were executed?

None?

How many civilians were executed by the Israelis?

19?


That number is higher than the number of Israelis who died in the alleged "war" of january 2009.


Bruce, I think your choice of words and indeed analogy could have been better.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM

Israel's Sharpville - no less.
And they crouch behind the dead of Auschwitz to excuse such actions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

It should also be understood that under international maritime law, the Turkish ship is legally considered to be Turkish territory. Turkey is a member of NATO. Israel is not. Turkey could, if it wanted to, consider the attack on its territory in international waters an act of war, subject to Article V of NATO, which obligates the other NATO members to come to its assistance when attacked by a non-NATO country.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:43 PM

"Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade."

Whether you believe the sea blokade of Gaza is legitimate or not, and this is very debatable, the fact remains that it applied to the waters within 20 miles of Gaza and NOT to international waters which is where the flotilla came under attack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

It doesn't matter what the Israelis told people to do. Under international law, they had no right to tell anyone to do anything at all in international waters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

The statement I hear is that the Israelis spent 6 hours telling the ships to stop and be escorted into port for inspection BEFORE they put people aboard them.

"I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port "

Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade.


I note the UN condemned the actionsof Israel immediately ( within hours) yet is NOW calling for a complete report and investigation.

Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

Maritime Law

Israelis opened fire before boarding the flotilla (the live feed video evidence supports this testimony)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:42 PM

BTW Royston, much as I dislike Hamas and Islamic fundamentalism (and much as most Palestinians dislike fundamentalism too), don't forget that the Israeli blockade was a response to the DEMOCRATIC election of Hamas, in a process that was agreed by international observers to be free and fair.

The West can't preach democracy, but only accept the result if it's the "right" one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM

The United States has blocked demands for an international inquiry into al Qaeda's attack on the World Trade Center that left almost three thousand people dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by al Qaeda.

Self regulation, that's the way to do it.



















Oops, I misread the report.










The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM

You're right, Bill D

Simple fact is that something must be done to stop Israel from perpetuating this cycle of death. They *are* the new Nazis. They have squeezed the Palestinians into a ghetto where they suffer death by a thousand cuts - something that creates new generations of human beings who are dehumanised and have nothing to lose when they blow their own bodies up in order to hit back at their persecutors in some (futile) way.

For gawd's sake, if we (Britain) had behaved towards the USA-funded Irish terrorists as Israel deals with Hamas, where would that have go us all?

Like South African apartheid, we need boycotts and sanctions. We need to make Israel feel what most right thinking people feel - that it is a callous, bloodthirsy pariah state, evert bit as vile and bankrupt as North Korea or Iran or the Taleban. We need to take away its military - and certainly its nuclear - capabilities and send in an UN force to roll back its borders to UN-agreed positions and maintain a peace for as long as it takes for the groundswell of emotional support for Hamas to disappear.

And of course Hamas must be disarmed and policed. But that is easy. Be tough on Israeli human rights abuses is to be tough on the causes of Hamas. Enforce some basic fairness and Hamas will wither away.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM

On 24th May in the Humanitarian Voyage thread, which received little attention, I posted a link to a Q & A article in the Gulf News which appears to be fairly prophetic

"Will Israel allow the vessels to enter?

Israel controls Gaza's territorial waters, and has warned campaigners not to attempt to break the blockade, saying it will use "any means necessary" to stop the flotilla.

Israel has, in the past, stopped the flotilla by ramming it with gunboats, towing it to its own ports as well as taking in passengers from international waters and detaining them.

The Israeli navy has reportedly been conducting practice exercises in order to block the Freedom Flotilla.
Organisers have said they are undeterred and are determined to continue.
The presence of high profile personalities on the ships gives the campaigners leverage over Israel, but the state has not hesitated to imprison prominent people in the past, including former congresswoman and US presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney.

Some of the vessels will be flying the Turkish flag. If such a vessel is attacked in international waters, a major diplomatic incident could follow"

thread.cfm?threadid=129679#2913025

In this thread I also referred to Gisha

"an Israeli not-for-profit organization, founded in 2005, whose goal is to protect the freedom of movement of Palestinians, especially Gaza residents. Gisha promotes rights guaranteed by international and Israeli law.

Gisha is operated by a professional staff and guided by a board that includes legal academics and practitioners, women and men, Arabs and Jews, who have helped shape Israeli human rights law through their advocacy and writings.

Gisha is registered in Israel as an independent, non-partisan, not-for-profit organization. Gisha is generously supported by donations from Israel and abroad."

Please remember that not all Jewish people support the Zionist movement or the settlements which are considered a "violation of international law" and approximately 100 of which do not even meet the legal criteria of Israeli law but represent a fundamentalist imperitive
Recognition of the second class status of the Palestinians in Isreal or the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is not anti-semitism!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM

""The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?

"



BTW, where did all the Jews that were in the areas controlled by Arabs go to between 1948 and 1967???

Care to enlighten me as you claim the Israelis should lie down and let the Palestinians cut their throats?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

"80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed "

And this figure is false.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM

Q,

'In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.'

1. they were invited to stay by the Israeli governement, and choose t leave based on promises by the Arab League that they could have it all after the Jews were driven out.

2. Nearly 100% of the Jews in Arab nations were "ethnically cleansed" , and resettled ONLY by Israel. 820,000 Jews vs the 640,000 Palestinian Arabs that fled.





"The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?





"Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves. "

So why didn't the other Arab nations allow them to settle, as the Israelis allowed Jewish refugees from the world over to do? They are the ones keeping the Palestinians as slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM

"""I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles."""

...and here we go again!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.

The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years.

Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM

BTW, transjordan was given to the Arabs in 1923- a few years BEFORE 1937....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM

"Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective. "


False statement.

Israel has NEVER threatened the existance of Jordan.

Israel has never used Palestinian Arabs as slves- that has been reserved for thier Arab brothers in Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, and other Arab nations, where they could live and work but never become citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM

Q,

"The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected."

The mandate did NOT allow for the creation of Jordan ( Transjordan) as the ARAB Homeland, with NO Jews being allowed to settle in that 77% of the Mandate area.

The remainder of the Mandate ( 23%, the Jewish Homeland) had NO restrictions on who settled there.

I guess you mean that ONLY the rights of Non-Jews were to be respected.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM

The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected.

Ben Gurion (1937) wrote that he was in favour of partition because he didn't envision a partial Jewish state as the end of the process. "What we want is not that the country be united and whole but that it be united and the whole country be Jewish (bold face mine).
He explained that a first-class Jewish army would permit zionists to settle in the rest of the country with or without the consent of the Arabs ("Letters....", 1971, Univ. Pittsburgh Press).

(From Wikipedia and Encyc. britannica)

The policy envisioned by Ben Gurion is being pursued. Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM

For an Israeli perspective on blockade, which does not seem to conform entirely to the contents of my previous links, see

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_flotilla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2