BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 01:39 AM

It is so hard to find a nice card depicting the Slaughter Of The Innocents.
A real gap in the market.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:19 PM

Of course, government soldiers killing children is very much part of the Christmas story. As is having to go into exile to get away from them.

The bits that tend to get to get slightly overlooked.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:45 AM

And a very merry Christmas back to you.

Should we take it that you are happy for any religious group to be persecuted, because the bastards deserve it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:10 AM

well here are all the usual suspects again. where do youse guys get the time to read and write all this clap trap.

it's a same all the christians and muslums can't be put onto another world to fight ot out and leave good people alone.

all the god based religions are militartist and repressive and the sooner we get free of them the better. it's hard to imagine a non fundamentalist sustem being worse.

here in canada the local native rights people have dug up the first unmarked graves of native children on residential school property. unmarked graves that weren't supossed to exist. the schools former owner the anglican church has iswsued threats to all employees that they will be fired of tey talk about the the documants they are hiding that confirm they were aware native children were dying of malnutrition and deprival of health care,while in their care.

bishop bennett you should be ashamed.

this after the "truth and reconcilliation commission" has been supported by the child murdering churches. they want lots of reconcilliation , but not much truth.

really it's time to shut down these crazy churches that have betrayed every teaching of christ. catholic anglican and protestant. start new churches with observation of the principles in the sermon on the mount. give away the money to the poor and environmental and social justice causes, and help others.

of course muslims art just as bad but i live where christians are the murderers of children. and it's time to come clean and stop doing the devils work .christians should have a slightly higher calling.

merry christmass all

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:05 PM

For jokes.....I prefer Jim Knowledge meself!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 12:21 PM

Victoria and Albert were first cousins..

In fact we made a commune for married first cousins here in The UK.

I reckon we called it Norfolk.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 11:22 AM

This is the one that mentions cousin marriage Jim.


You have made a twat of yourself on recent threads, and so have I.
I know that you are no twat.
I read and admire the stuff you post above the line.
That is why I persevere with this.
I really am no racist, and I would love to straighten out the misunderstanding.

Why have you ignored the distinction between "believe" and "opinion" ?
The diagnosis, and the weather forecast?

I believe the universe began as an infinitely small region of space time 14.4 billion years ago.
I even teach it to my students, but it would be vastly overstating my knowledge to describe it as my opinion !
And yet, one year ago, I knew far more about the conditions of the early universe than BP culture.
I just could not have an opinion about it.

Nowhere is there a reference to the Pakistani culture being corrupt, no "All male Pakistanis being degenerate, no "cultural implants
True. And I have never claimed any of those things.

The offending was linked by the 5 to these specific aspects of the culture.
Late marriage for men.
No intimate relationships before marriage.
Unhappy arrange marriages, usually between cousins.
Remember now?
All the men are exposed to that culture are they not?
Culture influences behaviour does it not?

You say I did not establish the over-rep, but every contributor acknowledged it except you and Don.
When I achieved that I withdrew from the debate.
Remember?
That was my case. I did not care why they did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM

"Why not post one?"
Would you like the one that claims that Muslims are culturally corrupt because they marry first cousins?
You should have copies - you post them - I have no inclination to continue arguing with a racist brick-wall
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:21 AM

More lies Jim.
My pms are as restrained and rational as my posts.
Why not post one?
The most "disturbing obsessive and racist" one you can find!
If you are not lying.

Why bother to argue the issues?
Because that is what normal people do.
All you want to do is talk about me, or rather the rabid monster you make me out to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:58 AM

"Just hate driven lies."
If we didn't have your own statements as evidence of your character, I have 20-odd PMs of an increasingly disturbing obsessive and racist nature to confirm my view of you - never had my own personal stalker before!
Why not argue the issue - why bother?
You've been told often enough that you don't read what others have to say - you don't even bother denying it.
Your arguments are as illogical, unreasoning and unpleasant as are all racist's; you admit to being ignorant on the subjects you involve yourself with and, when cornered, you blame somebody else for them..
As I said, why bother?
The best bit of advice I have received recently is to leave you to your own devices and let you show yourself up for what you are - I couldn't do a better job of that in a million years.
And please stop whingeing that I hate you - nobody cares that much to hold such strong feelings for you or your 'ideas'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:25 AM

I do understand " persistant displays of racism, bigotry, defence of civil and human rights abuses, war crimes, the return to racial segregation....."

All lies.
Just hate driven lies.
Why not just argue the issues?
Because you can't?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:41 AM

Oh dear Keith - you've just made one of your superb crassisms then contradicted yourself - and have the good grace to even acknowledge or defend it, let alone admit to it - nothing new under the sun.

I have no idea what this sentence is about or what it means.
Does anyone?
Help us out Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM

Tap Tap Tap

Bang Bang Bang.

"How are the carpenters getting on? I need some more wood here!"

Tap Tap Tap

Bang Bang Bang

"Right! Pass me another couple of Christians!"

Sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 06:59 AM

Oh dear Keith - you've just made one of your superb crassisms then contradicted yourself - and have the good grace to even acknowledge or defend it, let alone admit to it - nothing new under the sun.
As for my hating you - other than your persistant displays of racism, bigotry, defence of civil and human rights abuses, war crimes, the return to racial segregation..... and all the other characteristics that go into your make-up - I don't know you enough to hate you - just to despise your sub-species.
Most religions, given the power and opportunity, persecute in the name of their particular deity - that's part of what they are. To defend one and decry the other seems to be part of what you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 05:55 AM

It is you who head the Satsi here in covering up, excusing and ignoring human rights abuses,

I have done none of those things.
Again, Jim is hate driven to attack me personally with false accusations, just for reporting this research.
It says more about you than me Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 05:03 AM

You have just claimed that the Pope would not lie (or maybe one of your experts said it and you're just repeating it). He would, did, and continues to lie and cover up and affair that has shaken the Catholic (Christian) church to its roots - which makes your statement somewhat crass really - as you yourself have just pointed out "And that lie has been exposed.".
It is you who head the Satsi here in covering up, excusing and ignoring human rights abuses, by church and state - try and get your act together.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM

The whole of the Catholic heirarch has stood up and lied on the world stage on the question of how the church covered up child abuse

And that lie has been exposed.
This statement has not even been challenged, except by the Mudcat Stasi.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 03:54 AM

" I do not believe he would stand up and blatantly lie on the world stage."
The whole of the Catholic heirarch has stood up and lied on the world stage on the question of how the church covered up child abuse - and continues to do so.
If any good has come from the affair it is that the Church will never again be trusted in a position of authority in Ireland again.
And then, of course, there's Pope Pius X11...
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:38 AM

I fail to see why is is important to ascertain whether one group or another is the most persecuted.

I feel the same Joe, but The Vatican put it out and I thought it worthy of discussion here.
(I reopened the thread when Canterbury came out with the same point.)

I expected some dissent and a lot of apathy.
I was not prepared for the vitriolic attacks made on me for just mentioning it.
Why did it make people, Greg, Jim, Don T, ..... so very angry with me?

Greg described the OP as an "Opus Preposterous"
Every word came from the BBC news report linked to.
What drives him?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 01:54 AM

I fail to see why is is important to ascertain whether one group or another is the most persecuted. You can find evidence of just about every group being persecuted, in areas where that group is a minority.

It does seem clear that Christians are persecuted in some countries, particularly the ancient Christian churches that existed in the Middle East since before Islam came to be. Does anybody disagree with that?

A number of Palestinian Catholics have immigrated to the Sacramento area in California, and I spoke with a number of them. They told me they came to the United States because it was getting too difficult for them to live in Palestine, and they no longer felt secure there. I met a number of Palestinian Catholics in Palestine in 1999, and they seemed to be living quite well there at the time - but times have gotten tough for them lately.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 01:13 AM

Whatever you think of the Pope Greg, I do not believe he would stand up and blatantly lie on the world stage.
If he did, I believe at least one of his numerous enemies would expose him, and the published research cited.

That did not happen.
That is why I think the figures reliable.
What is your reason for dismissing them Greg?
Prejudice?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:37 PM

Well, Keith, From The OP - which is indeed the Opus Preposterous:

Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians.

I'm not interestered what in Cardinal O'Brien and Aid to the Church in Need SUGGEST. Nor what they imply about Pakistan.

What can they document and prove? Please supply evidence.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:51 PM

Well it is certain that no group celebrates and invites persecution like Christians. That is understandable considering nearly all of the early leaders are celebrated as martyrs. Keep in mind that Easter is the highest holy day.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:45 PM

No, the opening post Greg.
What is your objection please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM

"OP"? You mean the "Opus Preposterous"?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:53 PM

I refer you to the OP, which was prompted by the survey eluded to on the Wiki page.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:37 PM

Yes others are persecuted, but none more than Christians.

And you base this preposterous nonsensical statement on what factual evidence, pray?

Please elucidate, enumerate, & be specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM

I regret my last post to Don.
Don, I do not mind that you disagree, but why is it always an attack on me?
You could just say, " I think you are wrong that Christians are most persecuted, and if they are it does not matter because any persecution is wrong."

Why do you need to misrepresent my contributions in old threads to make some kind of case against me personally?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:48 PM

I think there might be an argument that more women are persecuted, regardless of faith, than Christians. In some cases, by national or religious law, in others by the lawless, as in the Congo, and in others by partners in otherwise civilised countries, out of sight.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:41 PM

chalk one up for less adoptive families and the infringement of freedom of belief!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

One I'm in favor of:
UK courts have determined that as long as they pr/teach that homosexuality is a sin, Christians are unfit to adopt, as LGBT rights trump "freedom of conscience" (quotation marks theirs). I think there is also the danger to girls of not being taught biology if it shades into contraception, another great peril to be avoided.

Chalk one up for the reasonable!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:17 PM

I ignored nothing.
Apart from Shia not being a minority in Iraq, you can not deny that Christians suffer great persecution there, and also in Afghanistan.

My case is that Christian persecution is a massive and under-reported abomination.
Yes others are persecuted, but none more than Christians.

If you say I am wrong to state that, then justify.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

""If you do not think the persecution of minorities, by death, imprisonment, rape and seizure or destruction of property, worth discussing, no-one is forcing you.""

You really are one of a kind, and in other circumstances you would amuse me.

Accuse the other party of doing what in fact you are doing yourself, but it doesn't work.

You carefully ignored the persecution of Hazara and of women in Afghanistan by the Taliban, and the persecution of Shia Muslims in Iraq.

In fact you stated (11th Dec 04.51) that the persecution in Iraq was against Christians, and ignored the inter Muslim aspect.

You are attempting to make your case by ignoring all facts that militate against you, but a few minutes of research show that many other religious, political, and gender specific groups are persecuted just as much, and in some cases more.

Your myth is BUSTED!! Christians are being persecuted, as are many others, but you refuse to notice the others because you don't regard their lives as significant.

What other reason can there be for adhering to the lie that political conflict is NOT persecution, when the Chi-Coms pour resources into a third world country to convert it to Communism?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM

Don, Rwanda WAS an example of a minority being persecuted.
It was genocide.
All your other examples were wars between rival political ideologies.

If you do not think the persecution of minorities, by death, imprisonment, rape and seizure or destruction of property, worth discussing, no-one is forcing you.

Greg, I just cited Wiki for an overview.
What do you want confirmed?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:36 AM

""Rwanda was an inter-tribal conflict.
Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan were about conflicting political ideologies, not persecuting minorities.

Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

Keep wriggling Keith.

1. Rwanda was not straightforward tribal conflict, but the persecution and annihilation of one tribe by another, much stronger and better equipped.

2. Vietnam was the persecution of one group of citizens by another, aided by outsiders.

3. Cambodia was the persecution, and extinction, of all who were considered, by a paranoid maniac leader, to be intellectuals, his definition of intellectuals being anybody who used a fountain pen.

You cannot simply decide to redefine words to support your failing arguments.

People are being persecuted all over this rotten world for their religious or political beliefs, their colour or race and their sexual orientation, and you want the world to admit that Christians are the most persecuted?

Sorry mate, but on the death toll alone that is far from the truth.

Now, can we put your ridiculous claims aside, and discuss the means by which ALL human beings (including Christians) might be protected from persecution?

That discussion might be worth the band width!! This one is NOT!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:44 AM

Ah, Ian M ~~ glad you still around. How about Arsenal now, then? Two above, & 2 points clear of, Liverpool. Must be because of my Maintaining The Faith, eh?

Tee-hee.
〠〠〠〠〠〠

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:56 AM

the Wiki page on Christian Persecution,

Ah, yess, the absolutely authoritative Blog-O-Paedia!

I wouldn't believe them without corroboration if they said the earth was round (which it ain't)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:32 AM

If you look at the Wiki page on Christian Persecution, you find 23 countries listed, but not Israel.
Also this.
"Currently (as of 2010), as estimated by the Christian missionary organisation Open Doors UK, an estimated 1 million Christians face persecution, particularly in North Korea, Iran and Saudi Arabia.[2] A recent study, cited by the Vatican, reported that 75 out of every 100 people killed due to religious hatred are Christian.[3"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:35 AM

There is no dilemma there Richard.
It is an example of mild persecution, which I deplore.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:23 AM

I wonder if I should give Keith a difficult dilemma by pointing out that in Jerusalem Jewish extremists are persecuting not only other Jews but also Xtians for (for example) non-adherence to extremist Jewish dress odes for women.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:40 AM

Christian persecution..

Right!

Yesterday, three, (count them) three different sets of smiling people came to my door during the course of as many hours asking if I had taken Jesus into my life.

Can anybody tell me how to stop the buggers persecuting my right to watch the latest Harry Potter DVD in peace?

Christian persecution should be a crime. Stop the buggers persecuting me anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 01:09 AM

Rwanda was an inter-tribal conflict.
Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan were about conflicting political ideologies, not persecuting minorities.

Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:12 PM

""Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.""

I included Darfur because it was anti Christian and to show once again that the rest of us are capable of seeing two sides, while you only see the Christian or the Jewish side.

That anti Christian action and a similar one in Iraq took your attention, but the thousands of Muslims, Buddhists and others murdered in my other examples were, as usual, beneath your notice.

And, by the way, events in the eighties and nineties, while technically of the last century, are all in the last thirty years, and only the fact that those years span the turn of a century grants you the opportunity you seize upon so eagerly, to play down the events which you don't wish to acknowledge.

Once again you show that my earlier assessment of your position is both justified and true.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM

From your list, let us just consider those conflicts that are of this century.
Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.

And Iraq, where the once thriving Christian community has been persecuted almost to extinction.

Still no comment Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:03 PM

""Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

Based on death tolls in Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Rwanda, Sudan, Darfur etc. etc.

NO! Not especially.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:58 PM

""Why are we discussing it on this thread lads?
Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

I see! You can bring the subject of Syrian actions to a discussion of Israeli behaviour, but when I respond to a direct challenge to produce evidence of your behaviour, any evidence from outside this thread is disqualified by you.

Another indication that I was right in my assessment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM

I also provided evidence about the dump.
I provided pictures.
It is an ordinary domestic dump found in all towns.
It is surrounded by apartments and houses.
It is a few minutes walk from some of Jerusalem's most holy sites.
Non-Bedouin Palestinians are contesting that they should be given the sites.

Why are we discussing it on this thread lads?
Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:42 PM

" and that the community was thriving."
Next to a toxic rubbish dump - which you were fully informed of, given the evidence of and are now choosing to ignore once again - I think you have just shown Don's summing up to be about right, don't you?
I doubt if it would be possible to "slur " your "character" any more than you manage to do yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM

Not a fair representation of my views Don.
Israel was being demonized for its treatment of the Bedouin.

I provided evidence of the investment being made in their housing by Israel, and that the community was thriving.

You actually agreed with me Don, that it was reasonable to acknowledge that the treatment by Israel of its Bedouin was far better than their treatment at the hands of their Arab brothers in Egypt and Jordan.
And that is all I did.
Your criticism of me is unfounded.

Why am I always attacked by misrepresenting my arguments in previous threads, instead of the points I am currently making?
Because it is easier?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM

Read some of your own posts Keith, and note how many times you do it.

e.g. Syria treats the Bedouins worse than Israel and therefore we shouldn't complain about Israel's treatment.

A non argument since we were not discussing treatment of Bedouins worldwide, but in fact the topic was Israel's behaviour.

You do it all the time.

Don T.