BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:19 PM

That is unjust Don.
That slur on my character is unjustifiable.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:00 PM

Keith is a very difficult person with whom to discuss any serious subject.

His position is always the same.

Tell him that somebody is committing acts of assault, persecution or racist hate and no matter how solid the evidence, he will reply somebody else is doing it more, or worse, and therefore your original statement must be wrong.

Nobody has yet been able to educate him out of the primary school playground excuse mentality, so all you get is "Jimmy did it too miss".

In Keith's world, if a Muslim threw a snowball at a Christian, that would be persecution, and if the Christian pulled out a gun and shot him, that would be just a predictable response to Muslim aggression.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:31 PM

"Gee, I wonder if there's a way to make a combat thread visible only to the warring parties....
Sorry Joe but it would have been interesting to see a comment about Keith's view of Christianity from a Chrristian - my mistake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:10 PM

That being said, there ARE places in this world where people are persecuted for their faith or gender or sexual orientation or any number of other things,

Yup, Joe, and one of these places is the Good Old U. S. of A. - the "best country in the world" accordin\fg to the christian[sic]Exceptionalist movenment.

John 11:35

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

Gee, I wonder if there's a way to make a combat thread visible only to the warring parties....

From all this discussion, I think it can be concluded that some Christians are persecuted, and some are persecutors. And the same goes for Muslims, and for just about any other group. I think it's best to assess individuals as individuals, and not for their group affiliation.

That being said, there ARE places in this world where people are persecuted for their faith or gender or sexual orientation or any number of other things, and such persecution must be stopped - no group "deserves" to be persecuted.

As you were, Keith and Jim.

Or not.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:03 PM

There are 9 bigots in a remote Kentucky backwoods church.
Hold the front page!

If they were not just looking for anti-Christian copy, they would not have to resort to such trivia.

Obviously there is no hope of you actually addressing the issues of this thread Jim.
You just rake up groundless smears against me as a person.
That is your only reason for posting here.
You are a sad, obsessed person Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

"Scouring the world for an anti-Christian story however trivial,"
Returning to the "Good Ol' Days" of racial segregation is "trivial"
Thank you for reminding me of everything I detest about racism (and of the hypocricy of religion - which makes me thank god I am an atheist)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 12:11 PM

On that subject I said,
"Greg,of course they should be singled out, but is it an issue of international importance.
A tiny rural church in the backwoods of Kentucky?
Fifteen voted. (only nine voted as bigots)
My suspicion is that, in the pages of The Guardian and similar, it is open season on throwing dirt at Christians just now. "

Scouring the world for an anti-Christian story however trivial, I see as another example of persecution.

Jim, I do not seek dialogue with you, because you always turn it into a nasty, malicious attack on me personally, as again in your last post!

My reopening post was NOT directed at you.
It was my bad luck that you were the only respondent.
If you post you must expect to be replied to.
Imperious commands to "go away" have only a comedic effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM

I am not – not - not getting into a dialogue again with you - though I can't help but notice that you object to English Christians being made aware of American Christian churches excluding mixed-race couples from their services -(see Christian Segregationism 2011)
"It is extraordinary that The Guardian thinks its UK readers need to know all about this. Am I being paranoid, or are Christians being singled out for bad copy?"
It appears that you object to Muslims persecuting Christians, but are quite happy with the idea that Christian Churches persecute Christians because of their colour - lets keep our worship all in the same skin-tone eh - what!.
As I said before - go away please - you've made yourself perfectly clear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM

Fair point Jim, but I already changed my statement to minorities rather than faiths.
My first should have said, "You defend other minorities Jim."
Why have you no sympathy for this, the most persecuted of all.

A cut/paste,

Christians have only recently begun to talk about how Muslim gangs simply come and take possession of Christian-owned land while the Palestinian security services, almost exclusively staffed by Muslims, stand by. Mr. Qumsieh's own home was firebombed three years ago. The perpetrators were never caught.

"We have never suffered as we are suffering now," Mr. Qumsieh confesses, violating his own introductory warning to the assorted foreign correspondents in his office not to use the word "suffering."

Always a minority religion among the predominantly Muslim Palestinians, Christians are, Mr. Qumsieh says, "melting away," even in Bethlehem. While they represented about 80% of the city's population 60 years ago, their numbers are now down to about 20%, a result not just of Muslims' higher birth rates but also widespread Christian emigration. "Our future as a Christian community here is gloomy," Mr. Qumsieh says.

and,


Mr. Ibrahim's crime in that Hamas-ruled territory was to be a Christian, a transgression he compounded in the Islamists' eyes by writing love poems.

"Muslims tied to Hamas tried to take me twice," says Mr. Ibrahim, and he didn't want to find out what they'd do to him if they ever kidnapped him. He hasn't seen his family since Christmas 2007 and is afraid even to talk to them on the phone.

Speaking to a group of foreign journalists in the Bethlehem Bible College where he is studying theology, Mr. Ibrahim describes a life of fear in Gaza. "My sister is under a lot of pressure to wear a headscarf. People are turning more and more to Islamic fundamentalism and the situation for Christians is very difficult," he says.

In 2007, one year after the Hamas takeover, the owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore was abducted and murdered. Christian shops and schools have been firebombed. Little wonder that most of Mr. Ibrahim's Christian friends have also left Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:40 AM

"You defend other faiths Jim."
For the record - I don't defend other faiths; I defend the innocent victims of inter-religious warfare and religious intolerance by any fundamentalist religious extremists, be they Muslim, Christian, Zionist... whoever "they can all go to their own particular hell in a handcart" - remember?
I have no religion and am only interested in the subject while it puts innocent people's lives at risk and brings discord and unhappiness to their existance. The only way I can see that ever happening is to nuetralise any influence that religious groups may have on the way the world is governed. Here in Ireland, we are still counting the child rape victims of Christian persecution (or don't Catholic clerics count as Christians in your book?) - a never-ending task, it would appear.
This is a perfect example of why you really aren't worth debating with - you don't read what others write, then you concoct a distorted version of what has been put forward to suit your own particular 'message to the world' - go away please.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 07:12 AM

This is getting very worrying - I find myself agreeing with Mither, DonT, and even Mr Fluids.

But there is persecution of Xtians in Malaysia, and it is starting tol look as if persecution of Xtians in Egypt is coming back onto the agenda.

Conversely, anyone looking for the unacceptable face of Xtianity need look no further than (P)Rick Perry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM

This was the only answer I got to that question.
1. Gay couples who want a stable, lasting, and formally recognised relationship.

2. The majority of Muslims, who just want to get on with their lives.

3. Any woman who seeks an abortion, for any reason.

Of all religions, I would say that Christians are no less tolerant, and usually far more tolerant, especially of gay and women's rights, than other groups.
So why single out Christians?

You express much sympathy for other persecuted minorities Jim.
The Bedouin Israelis, who despite their "persecution" are thriving, with the fastest growing population of any group on the planet.

Have you none to spare for the persecuted Christians whose numbers are dwindling under the relentless onslaught, in some cases to extinction?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:15 AM

Sorry Keith - no dialogue here to nause up yet another thread.
You've had your answer to that one from others, far more eloquently than I could put mine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 04:57 PM

First thought that entered my head when I saw the title of this thread is "of or by?"
No religion can claim the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting those who don't fit their particular set of guidelines

So who is being persecuted by Christians?
I asked this earlier and Don made some suggetions, but I pointed out that, where it happened, Christians were much less guilty of it than others.
So, why single them out?
You defend other faiths Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 02:36 PM

First thought that entered my head when I saw the title of this thread is "of or by?"
No religion can claim the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting those who don't fit their particular set of guidelines. The history of the Christian church is second-to-none in having earned itself a bloodsoaked reputation - Quentin Tarrantino - eat your heart out!!!
Even under the general umbrella of Christianity - hard luck if you happen to 'kick with the wrong foot' (and even within the "right" denomination you are not guaranteed protection from abuse - ask the possible victims of Archbishop McQuaid.
Religion deals in mystical absolutes and while it has any say whatever in the day-to-day running of our lives other than that of spiritual guidance, the better, and even that should be only with the total agreement of consenting adults.
Religion and politics is a toxic mix and the sooner it is neutralised, the more likely we are to stop tearing each others heads off in the name of a spiritual bogie-man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM

Dr Rowan Williams said that many Christians were leaving countries such as Iraq and Egypt in the face of persecution.

Many others had been forced to retreat to enclaves for their safety, he said.

Dr Williams added that the treatment of Christians would be the "litmus test" of the success of the Arab Spring.

The head of the world's Anglicans made his claims in the House of Lords.

He said: "At the present moment the position of Christians in the region is more vulnerable than it has been for centuries.

"The flow of Christian refugees from Iraq in the wake of constant threat and attack has left a dramatically depleted Christian population there."

Those who chose to stay in the country had often withdrawn to segregated enclaves for their safety, he said.


The Archbishop says Coptic Christians living in Egypt are facing persecution "Many recognise with heavy hearts things may come to such a pass that there are few, if any other options that will actually guarantee the safety of Christians there," the Archbishop said.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM

A quote by Chesterton I came across which seems relevant to much of this discussion:

"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 04:21 PM

I think Joe did make the point that women are not a minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:15 PM

Is it pedantic to point out that women are probably not a minority anywhere?

It isn't just minorities that get persecuted - powerful minorities are often the worst oppressors.
................

When it comes to religious oppression and persecution, for a variety of reasons, it seems pretty evident that Keith is correct that Christians, and Christian congregations are the target of most of the worst examples at this time.

But we should recognise that our own societies have had a part tomplay in bringing this about. For example the invasion of Iraq has led to terrible and irreparable damage to Christian communities which dated back to pre-Muslim times, and had lived amicably among Muslim neighbours for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM

OK guys, but I just felt that the statement "I think we can all agree that *some* Christians have been and are persecuted. " understates the extent of the persecution now being suffered by so many Christians in so many parts of the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:37 PM

Ok, enough's enough.

Get me some nails and a hammer and I'll persecute the buggers myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:16 PM

Keith,
Demonizing Muslims is a punchcard issue for the TeaPublicans, most of whom at least *call* themselves Christian, even if they don't embody Christianity. Numerous examples out there. On the record statements. And actions.

And can their consistent advocation for policies to restrict birth control for women not be seen as persecution? It is *consistent.* It is directed *at* women. It is an affront to their rights as people. Why is that not persecution? Is torching Planned Parenthood clinics not persecution?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 11:35 AM

Keith Says: Can we all agree that, right now, Christians are persecuted more than any other minority or faith group?

Well, no, Keith. I think it's safe to say that women have always been the most-persecuted "minority," although I believe they are a majority.

I think it would be safe to say that whenever we make sweeping statements about groups, we're most likely to be wrong. I suppose though, that with over a billion Christians, many are likely to be persecuted - especially the women (often by their own husbands). In general, though, we're better off to discuss specifics.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM

Why so unfriendly Don?

If gay people are being persecuted by some Christians, but mainly and worse by other religions, it seems harsh to single them out.

I dispute that "Muslims are terrorists" is being said by Christians.
None that I have ever heard.
How do you justify that claim Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:12 AM

I see!!

If others are doing the same thing it means that Christians mysteriously are not?

Very strange logic, until I remember the source!

As to the other claim, every time a Christian says "Muslims are terrorists" he is persecuting the vast majority.

I've already said it once. You and I will never reach agreement, because for you, no change of opinion is possible.

And now I'm done with it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:02 AM

Gay people and abortion seekers are persecuted by extremists of all religions, not specificall Christian, and other religions are more extreme in that persecution.
I challenge that Christians are persecuting Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:57 AM

""Also, who are Christians persecuting right now?""

Cross posted, but I can't let that pass.

So called Christians (the lunatic, fanatical fundamentalist fringe) are, as you well know, persecuting:-

1. Gay couples who want a stable, lasting, and formally recognised relationship.

2. The majority of Muslims, who just want to get on with their lives.

3. Any woman who seeks an abortion, for any reason.

The list is longer, but I can't be arsed. You work it out Keith. It may not have reached the stage of killing them (in most cases), but it IS nonetheless persecution.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM

Not really!!

But we could just agree to disagree.

That's it for me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:46 AM

Also, who are Christians persecuting right now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:43 AM

Can we all agree that, right now, Christians are persecuted more than any other minority or faith group?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:37 AM

I think we can all agree that *some* Christians have been and are persecuted.
I think we can also agree that *some* Christians have persecuted others, even in current times.
I think we can also agree that being the persecutors or the persecutees is not limited to Christians.
I *hope* we can agree that persecution of anyone *just because of the religion they choose, including those who do not practice any religion* is wrong, wrong, wrong, and will not get humanity to where I think we want to be.

But then, I am an idealist. And even idealists have been persecuted. So later today, I am going to the 2011 Getaway, where I plan to discuss and experience music, and not religion.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM

But surely it is good to kill sometimes. To kill disease-spreading insects, for example, or someone who is going to kill you?


It might be good for you but what about that thing or that person? They wish to live just as you do. When you decide to kill a disease-spreading insect, your intention is perhaps a mixture of self-concern (good) and revulsion (bad). The act will benefit yourself (good) but obviously it will not benefit that creature (bad). So at times it may be necessary to kill but it is never wholly good.


You Buddhists are too concerned about ants and bugs.


Buddhists strive to develop a compassion that is undiscriminating and all-embracing.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda04.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:33 AM

"Buddhists too"

Not really...read "The Nature of Existence and The Reality of Suffering" on this page.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/jainism/buddhismvsjainism.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:15 AM

"Doctors can only lose their job"

I suppose comparing to being put to death for not believing, it is a bit tame.

However, there is no clash in being a doctor and having faith. The clash is using your faith in your professional capacity. Most doctors in The UK who profess a faith are Muslims, and interpret, as per The Q'ran I am told, that many lifestyle taboos are not relevant where and when practicing healthcare. Especially the gender familiarity restrictions. Likewise for the many Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist doctors.

Like it or lump it, the times it is an issue is with Christians, usually of the born again variety. I have many church going friends but I note it is the ones who rediscovered their faith who seem to think everybody else might be interested in their hobby.

Persecution, as this thread tries to focus on, is a two way street. Every time I read of a cleric who put's the rules of his church on either the same level or a higher level than the laws of the land, I question his or her abuse of the trust many people install in him or her. Every time I note the Synod is having problems coming to terms with equality laws, I question their right to operate as a corporate structure under UK law.

Nothing in my concerns is about or reflects on the individual right to believe in a faith system or to set your own moral compass by it. I shudder at the thought of persecuting Christians, but see the need to scrutinise Christian structures where the democratic process, (or Parliamentary sovereignty) is ignored. The only losers can be those who try to inflict their beliefs on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:09 AM

Buddhists too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:59 AM

they won't even step on an ant That's the Jains, who are Hindus.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:40 AM

""and even i think, buddhist locations.
at least medics in the west could only lose their jobs and not their lives for not compromising their faith.best wishes""

Buddhist locations?

I'd like to see some evidence of Buddhist fundamentalism, given that their whole religion is based on respect for all life forms, and they won't even step on an ant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:38 AM

Sorry Penny.
It was worthy of repeating though, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:49 PM

Exactly who are the Christians persecuting now?

The big 3 have been hating each other for a long time.

I bet if Christ were alive today,
he would enjoy the Vatican.
He would invite the squalid poor to live in the Vatican
and Christ would be cruxified all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:37 PM

Well, Frank,
I can't second-guess people for building lavish churches. If people are forced to build lavish churches, that's another matter. Oftentimes, poor people build lavish churches and other public buildings as a matter of pride, showing that they too can build and possess something beautiful. Many times, such buildings provide a place of employment and an outlet for artistic expression and a community gathering place and education center - and you can't eat any of the materials used in building a religious edifice.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM

quite agree penny-the worst i get is badmouthing or disdain.nothing compared to believers in hardline communist/muslim/hindu ,and even i think, buddhist locations.
at least medics in the west could only lose their jobs and not their lives for not compromising their faith.best wishes
pete

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:28 PM

Keith ~ PennyS mentioned this 4 or 5 posts back: you seem to have missed it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM

I have been waiting for someone to mention poor Yusuf Naderkhani.
Young father in gaol on death row for two years for wanting to be a Christian.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15116650

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:54 PM

Joe, I have to make my position clear. I am a supporter of the First Amendment and do not want to see any religion in this country outlawed, people having the right to believe what they want, acknowledging that as people, there are many with whom I would disagree as to their religious choices.

There are people who profess Catholicism who I greatly admire although I think they would be who they are regardless of that professed belief.

The Berigan Brothers, Dennis Kucinich, Micheal Moore, Ammon Hennesey, Dorothy Day. Roy Bourgeois, members of Liberation Theology in Central America and I'm sure there are more.

I don't decry anyone's right to believe whatever they want so I don't want to be painted as someone who would deny this basic right.

I think that my criticism of opulent churches extend beyond just Catholic Cathedrals, Protestant, Islamic, Judaic and other edifices are easy to find and it is my view that the money to support these buildings could be better used to eliminate poverty.

That's my position.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM

The Catholic Cathedral in Juarez, Chihuahua is large, opulent, and adjoining it is the Mission of Guadelupe, two very large edifices in one of the most turbulent drug laden poverty centers of the world unless you count the incomes of the drug cartels.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM

A bit of real persecution in the news today, of a pastor in Iran condemned to death for being an apostate to Islam. He has been told he will be allowed to live if he renounces his Christianity.

Not being allowed to speak to patients, or wear a cross fades into insignificance.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:42 AM

I have been involved in cases of proselytising clinicians from the complaints side in my past. One thing that comes across very clearly is the refusal to see that it is a problem, largely on the basis that doing God's work transcends any laws.

John P makes a succinct point regarding providing what somebody needs, not what the practitioner believes. Sadly, the mindset I have had to tackle has included thinking that the patient needs what the practitioner believes.

And so it goes on..... (Just out of the need for balance etc, I will point out that the cases I have reviewed, and there have been a few over the years, the practitioner, whether doctor, nurse or AHP has been other religions as well as Christian. Interestingly, I have never personally come across clinicians proselytising Islamic faith. However, cases of pharmacists refusing to dispense morning after pills are more common with that particular faith.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:36 AM

our local hospice team holistic approach certainly includes the spiritual,but without any coercion to partake of such if contrary to patient wishes.if the patient declines it should be dropped.
whether offering such in the context of the medics own faith is illegal or not i dont know.but if it is- in the above proviso - illegal,-to quote from dickens"the law is an ass!" and PC gone mad IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 10:37 AM

I don't actually think I'd disagree with you much about the principles involved, John. But tying discussion to a particular very unclear case messes up the process of exploring that kind of thing.

It makes sense to talk about principles, and about the limits on what is appropriate, but going beyond that to talk about particular cases in ignorance of the full facts doesn't help. Not just on this case, people seem to fall into that trap time and time again, in relation to all kind of issues.