BS: St. George

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:54 AM

Was that post from Rapaire a stray from some other thread? I've done that a few times, when I've had a couple of windows on the computer open at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:07 AM

Following Dave Bryant's last post:

St George, to save a maid, the dragon slew;
A pretty tale, if all that's said be true;
Some say there was no dragon; and 'tis said,
There was no George; I wish there was a maid

- Anon.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Bobjack
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:52 AM

Bollocks! You are all wrong! He was born in Victoria Avenue, Hull, in 1183.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:50 AM

It must be a tough job being a patron saint sometimes, as McGrath remarks so aptly. Toughest job seems to me to rescue a virgin out of a consumed polygame marriage.
So let him be where he belongs to. Next meeting of our Boy Scout Veterans' of the Fifties Meeting will coincidentally happen on St George's day.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 10:36 AM

Thanks for pointing out the seriousness of this.

Isn't it strange that the press gives so much attention to the harmless matter of gay marriages and shuts its eyes to the cruelty and exploitation of "polygamy"? (I use quotation marks because it's not a form of marriage, it's a form of slavery.)

We need a modern St. George to get out there and rescue the virgins.

BTW, I believe the Reformed LDS church is now named the Community of Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 10:31 AM

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM

The problem of polygamy around Utah is real and ugly. A woman can and has been forced into polygamous marriages as young as 13 -- and if the man is caught he's prosecuted for child sexual molestation (among other things), as he should be.

A Utah attorney is trying to get the anti-polygamy statutes overturned on the grounds that they are unconstitutional.

The LDS Church has opposed polygamy for more than a century; I'm not at all surprised that the woman was rescued by Mormon missionaries.

The polygamy is supported by a breakaway group from the mainstream LDS church. They have a name, but I seem to have blocked it out. Something like "Orthodox Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints" or some such. (NOT the Reformed LDS, that's a whole 'nother bag.)

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:37 AM

I'm surprised that the Animal Rights crowd haven't come into this thread to protest abour cruelty to dragons - mind you young virgins are getting to be in pretty short supply too.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:30 AM

Here is a German localised version of St George (from this site):

In ancient times a fiery dragon came to the area above the village of Ebringen and disappeared into a cave on the southern slope of Schönberg Mountain. The heathen population revered the dragon as a god, to whom from time to time a human sacrifice had to be presented for its nourishment. Finally the lot fell on the charming and youthful daughter of the prince who resided at Schneeburg Castle.

At the same time there lived at the foot of Schönberg Mountain a young knight who had secretly converted to Christianity. When he learned of the horrible fate awaiting the prince's daughter he bravely resolved to kill the all-powerful dragon. Well armored and with a mighty spear in his right hand, he mounted his valiant steed and, trusting in his god, he advanced toward the hellish beast.

Greedily awaiting the fearlessly advancing attacker, the monster lay before his cave, his jaws opened and fuming with poison. The proud and foaming steed reared up, but powerful arms swiftly and surely held the reigns and aimed the spear. Hissing, the death-delivering projectile flew into monster's open throat.

The prince and the people received the news of the young knight's brave and liberating deed with jubilation. And with jubilation they praised the battle god who had granted such great power to the warrior. To commemorate the deed, stone crosses were erected on the houses in Ebringen, above which the dragon had formerly flown. Some of these stone crosses still exist on gables in the village. The daring knight, whose name was George, was now revered as a saint, and thus the place where he lived was later called Saint George.

Until a short time ago, an annual festival was held there every April 23, the saint's day, and peasants from the region would ride their horses around the church three times, asking Saint George's protection for their horses.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 06:48 AM

I `ad that Ken Livingstone in my cab the other day. I asked `im if `e was gonna free up some of our council tax to celebrate St.George`s Day in London.
`e said, nah.
I said you do money on all the other British patron saints, why not old St.George?
`e said there`s `ardly any English left in London now!!
What am I like?

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 06:42 AM

ERROR - ERROR - ERROR

St George is not - repeat NOT - the patron of Germany! We Germans only acknowledge St Michael the Archangel as our patron (so His late Majesty Emperor Wilhelm II on a window dedicated to my home church).

What is known today as St George's cross is originally the Saviour's flag; when shown as God's Lamb he always carries this flag to show that it isn't an ordinary animal.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 05:50 AM

I suppose when you are patron saint of soldiers, that kind of thing comes with the territory.

See from that list that he's down as patron saint of both England and Germany? But I've never heard of any German football fans turning up to matches with St George's crosses painted on their faces. It could get very confusing. (Like when England play Liechtenstein, and they both have the same national anthem played before the match.)

It must be a tough job being a patron saint sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 03:25 AM

Correction - having looked up in a German lexikon of saints the patron of syphilis is St Anthony "The Great". But since St George is also the Saint of fever and the pest (Black Death) it is small wonder that another epidemic disease was transferred to him.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 02:47 AM

N0, no, Metchosin - St G. isn't the saint of syphilis, but the patron of those affected by VD: to him they turn, in him they trust. T'is nothing to wonder about, since this malady was brought to Surope by Spanish soldiers and sailors from the American colonies, and since we have learned that he is the patron of those people, too, you shouldn't be astonished that he also patronizes their favourite disease.

Wilfried

P.S. Historical note: The disease was brought by Spanish troops to Naples (early 16th century), therefore it is called in Italy the Napolitan disease. Next to catch it were the French, who call it Italian disease, the Germans call it the French disease, and the Russians the German disease. So you just can follow the way it took through Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 04:09 PM

St. George is the patron Saint of syphilis? I couldn't believe it when I clapped my eyes on that.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 03:29 PM

Surely nobody has ever been under the impression that St George came from England?

Interestingly I noticed when they had that recent coup in Georgia (European Georgia that is) that the crowds were waving pretty well the same St George's Cross as is the English national flag, though I gather it's not the national flag in Georgia.

Do they use the St George's Cross at all in the American Georgia?

Incidentally, St George is a remarkably popular patron saint: Aragon, agricultural workers, archers, armourers, Beirut, Lebanon, Boy Scouts, butchers, Canada, Cappadocia, Catalonia, cavalry, chivalry, Constantinople, Crusaders, England, equestrians, farmers, Ferrara Italy, field hands, field workers, Genoa Italy, Georgia, Germany, Gozo, Greece, herpes, horsemen, horses, husbandmen, Istanbul, knights, lepers, leprosy, Lithuania, Malta, Moscow, Order of the Garter, Palestine, Palestinian Christians, plague, Portugal, riders, saddle makers, saddlers, skin diseases, skin rashes, soldiers, syphilis, Teutonic Knights, Venice.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 03:13 PM

LadyJean, your collection sounds delightful. I especially like the sound of St. George stepping out of the stained-glass window.

Wilfried, thanks for the historical information. I didn't know much about Turkey before.

And now, for the musical connection. Go to this site:

http://www.norbry.net/midi/archive/hymn/


and click on bornin.mid and you will hear St. Georges hymn. It is the same as Come Ye Thankful People, Come.

Rapaire - a recent article in the Ladies Home Journal had an article about a woman who left a polygamist community. It was heartbreaking.

An interesting note: she made her break after two Mormon missionaries (sent by a friend) showed up at her door and said "Do you want out of here?" So despite all the jokes, it can be a good thing to have those missionaries on your porch.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 11:08 AM

Wilfried, I don't get their weather forecasts. Besides, the area around the one in Utah is full of polygamists. I suspect that there aren't a lot of polygamists around the one in, say, Maine.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 10:57 AM

Rapaire - and what about St George in Vermont, or Maine, or in Grenada, or the Island in the Florida Gulf?

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:33 AM

Ah, geez, Alaska Mike, you mean St. George is in the Priboloffs? How come I get weather forecasts and news from there then?

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:15 AM

No, Patron of Hungary is Stephen (István) I. King of Hungary (ca. 969 - Aug. 15, 1038). Canonized 1083.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 08:58 AM

GUEST, leeneia. The BNP stands for the "British National Party" which is a right wing political party and are a kind of spin-off from the National Front. In recent years they seem to have gained ground in various parts of England.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 05:05 AM

Patron saint of Hungary too?

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 02:18 AM

What is called Turkey today didn't exist during the lifetime of St George. Geographically it is still called Asia Minor, and it has seen a lot of states and empires on her ground during the millennia.
Invaded by Turkisk tribes about 1000 A.D., a first Turkish state was founded by Osman I. (1258 - 1326). Therefore the Turkish Empire which spread from Asia Minor to Northafrica, the Balkans, Arabian Peninsula and Persia was called Osmanic. In 1923 modern Turkey was founded in Asia Minor, giving up all non Turkish countries, but including a small part of Europe just across the Bosporus (Rumeli = Roman house, but it means Greek).
Certainly St George wasn't a Turc.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 01:23 AM

My George vs Dragon pin is quite lovely. I bought it from a charming Russian lady at Costume Con 11. I always wear it on April 23. But as I said, the Russians think George is one of theirs. It's not surprising that they'd name an island after him.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 01:11 AM

I thought this was an Alaskan thread. St. George is one of the Pribilof Islands out in the Bering Sea in Western Alaska. Oh well, I was wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 12:51 AM

I have a sort of St. George and the Dragon collection. I have him in cast iron from Barcelona, of which he is patron saint. I have him on a laquer pin from Russia, of which he is also patron saint. I have him on buttons from Austria. I'm not sure what the connection is. I have him stepping out of his stained glass window in a print from Chicago, and I'm pretty sure there is no St. George Chicago connection. But old Georgie has never been exclusively British.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 03:35 PM

Please, I can't stand people who hector folk.......

I'll increase the medication......

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:58 AM

I reckon ol' Geroge being Turkish would piss the Russians off as well - Especialy those of Cossack extraction! Remember he is their patron as well...

I am St Geroge, that noble champion bold
and with my trusty Broadsword, won ten thousand pounds in gold.
It was I that fought the fiery Dragon
and brought him to the slaughter
and by that very deed I won the King of Egypts daughter.
Many years I spent with this fine lass but realy was a burk
I spent so long in the desert, they thought I was a Turk...

Bet you can't spot the bit I added can you?

Cheers

:D
(AKA Hector)

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:48 AM

From what I have read, there were Roman colonies on both the north and south shores of the Mediterranean, and there were Greek colonies in Turkey. In addition, people were dragged or fled from one part of the world to another quite a lot in those days. (Still happens, actually.)

Even if we knew it were true that St George lived in Turkey and was of African descent, the mere naming of localities doesn't tell us much

The important thing is the indubitable fact that he slew a dragon.

What's the BNP?

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:40 AM

According to the old (1908) Catholic Encyclopedia, this is all that is "reliably" known about St. George: Martyr, patron of England, suffered at or near Lydda, also known as Diospolis, in Palestine, probably before the time of Constantine. There is a lot more in the Encyclopedia, of course, and it is all here.

Subject: RE: BS: St. George
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 08:30 AM

It puts an interesting spin on Mumming as well, with St George fighting the Turkish Knight.

(The point about St George begin from Turkey has been going round for 35 years that I remember, so I don't think it will much impact on the BNP)

Subject: BS: St. George
From: Fiolar
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 08:26 AM

According to some recent reports, Saint George was born in what is now Turkey and was of African descent. That won't go down well with some right-wing groups including the BNP.