BS: Immigration and disability

Subject: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

This is a spin-off thread from another thread, about a particular family with problems staying together because of immigration laws in Australia, where the Australian father is currently living, and the USA where the mother and the child are living live - because they aren't allowed to live in Australia on account of the child's disability; and the father isn't allowed into the USA because he overstayed on a previous visit.

Here's a link to the thread concerned - but since the idea is that thread should be about being helpful to the family, it seems to me a better idea that the discussions about the legal issues, and what the immigration policies are and any stuff like that would be better in another thread.
............................

For a start, here is a link to an Australian Disability Rights site:

"In the area of immigration blatant disability discrimination occurs on an ongoing basis as the Migration Act is exempt from the Disability Discrimination Act (section 52). In reality, this means that while disability discrimination is usually illegal when perpetrated in Australia, it is a condoned, standard practice for Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs (DIMA) officials when dealing with potential migrants and refugees with disability."

It set me wondering what the situation in other countries is. I'm pretty sure that the kind of discrimination which is involved here would be illegal within the European Union, if the father had been a national of one of our countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:20 PM

Is there a written letter from the Australian Dept stating they have been refused entry on the grounds of Jessica's disability?

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: sagecw
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:52 PM

guest..yes i have the letter.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 03:09 PM

As that site I linked to indicated, it does appear that the Australian Immigration Authorities see it as their job to keep out of Australia children who are likely to grow up and need help from the community.   

The same way they used to see it as their job to keep out people who didn't fit the desired racial profile.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:16 PM

Under the Race Relations Amendment Act(2000) the kind of dicrimination the Australian Authorities appear to have exercised against Jessica, by reason of her disability, would be illegal in the UK.

I kmow that doesn't in itself helpd in this case, but it's useful to know when writing letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:38 PM

On the other hand, in Australia, in the Disability Discrimination Act which outlaws most types of discrimination against people with disabilities, there is a specific exempton that protects the right to discrimninate against people with disabilities:

DISABILITY DISCRIMINATION ACT 1992
- SECT 52
Migration
Neither Division 1 nor 2:
(a)
    affect discriminatory provisions in the Migration Act 1958 or any regulation made under that Act; or
(b)
    render unlawful anything done by a person in relation to the administration of that Act or those regulations.

Do Australian Mudcatters really feel happy about this? More especially when it is applied to break up famiies?

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 08:00 PM

Rather than asking whether or not the disabled individual in this case (who is not an Australian citizen) is having her rights violated by the Australian government, the way I'm looking at it is whether or not Russel, as an Australian citizen, is having his rights violated by not being able to bring his family into Ausralia. Don't know the answer to that one yet, but some people are looking into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: CapriUni
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 10:47 PM

Oy!

I thought this was the twenty-first century.

The real injustice here, is that "Disability" is the one minority that is open to everyone, at any moment, without prejudice or warning.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:12 AM

sage is it possible for you to let us know the wording used by the Australian Govt in their refusal to your family. They would have given written reasons? It would help in any letter writing done to help your cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST,aussie catter
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:54 AM

here are some useful inks which could help Jessica.

info for people with family members with a disability who want to migrate to Oz

migration - points to consider if you have a child with a disability

free legal immigration advice in australia

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST,aussie catter
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 06:04 AM

I strongly suggest that when Russell returns to Australia, he seeks free legal advice, thru the links given. If he applies to sponsor his daughter and Cindy, even if the application is rejected, he should appeal to the Minister, with many letters of support from his local member of parliament, from as many community contacts, preiest in the area, etc, as he can, and it could possibly be overturned by the Minister. One of the free legal advice centres given would advise him if this is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:03 AM

AS I understand it from Cindy, she thinks the better outcome to this woudbe for Russell to be allowed to join her and Jess in the USA. Getting back to live in Australia would be Plan B, if that can't be fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: sagecw
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:06 AM

McGrath...that is correct the better outcome is for Russell to come here(USA) we were told by the immigration agent(that was doing our Au. redency) that it will take upward of 7 years to appeal the Au. decission...and that he advised us in his oppinion we would lose..and with the fact he would get money from us working on it whether we win or lose..there isn't much of a chance of us winning

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:06 AM

Still interested in how the Aus Govt worded their refusal. Seeing as that was one of the opening points of this case. If as you say you were refused due to Jessica's disability.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:27 AM

If you join the Mudcat, GUEST Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:06 AM, you can send and receive PMs, which seems a better way to proceed when you are asking for information of that kind.

Also it would help avoid confusing you with a previous unnamed GUEST on a related thread who made a couple of the most disgustiung posts in this kind of context that I have ever read. They have now been removed, som you'll have to take my word for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:28 AM

If you join the Mudcat, GUEST Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:06 AM, you can send and receive PMs, which seems a better way to proceed when you are asking for information of that kind.

Also it would help avoid confusing you with a previous unnamed GUEST on a related thread who made a couple of the most disgusting posts in this kind of context that I have ever read. They have now been removed, so you'll have to take my word for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM

I don't think that asking sage to quote a couple of lines from the letter she stated she recieved, disallowing her and her daughters entry to OZ, based on her daughters disability, should be too much to ask. It is not of such a sensitive nature that it is only fit for a PM. It is the basis of her request for help.

If I hoped for strangers to champion my cause I would be only too willing to quote from that letter.
Unwillingness to do so raises my suspicions. And by the level of interest this has generated I do not think I am alone.
It was an emotive stance to take from the outset. But it did get the attention it hoped for.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM

And I'm afriad, GUEST Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM, your unwilligness to join or even use a handle of any sort arouses my suspicions that you might be the GUEST whose deleted posts I mentioned - and if so I wouldn't advise anyone to give you the time of day. That's not in any way an attack, because you well may not be that person.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:52 AM

I am not that person and did not see the posts. I am also not the person asking for help in this instance.
Not giving me the time of day is of no consequence to me.

Discrimination works both ways. It is not beyond the realms of fancy for people to use it to further their cause, when it isn't the actual issue. That is sad but true.

Without the Australian Govt letter being quoted we will never know. There is no crime in asking for factual evidence before damning a country's immigration policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:02 PM

With a membership it would be possible for GUEST Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:52 AM to send and receive Personal Messages.

As for the Australian Government's immigration policy in general, the links I have given provide a fairly forceful indication. And it wouldn't be hard to follow up in that and find a great deal more about the ins and outs of that policy, and the hardship it has caused to many people.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:13 PM

The post was to an open forum. The evidence should be in the same place.
I have no personal interest in Australia's immigration policy, other than how it was applied in this particular case. However as their reasons have never been quoted, I have no real idea how they did act.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:27 PM

This is not an isolated case.

From that first link I gave in the thread:

In the year 2000, Shazad Kayani, an Australian Citizen from Pakistani background, doused himself in petrol and set himself alight in front of Parliament House, Canberra and died as a result. He had been waiting six years to bring his family, including his daughter who has a disability, to Australia. Since 1995, after arriving on a Visitor Visa and applying and being granted refugee status, Mr Kayani had tried to reunite with his family. All his efforts had come to nothing, largely because his daughter with the disability is considered to be "too much of a drain on the health system" with costs estimated to be around $750,000 over the girl's lifetime. (News Limited, 4.4.01)

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:52 PM

I am not disputing it hasn't happened. Although where did the quote above re 'drain on public funds' come from? Was it someone elses paraphrase of an official document or was it the document itself?

I am just trying to ascertain that that is indeed what has happened in this case. And without seeing their reply we are none the wiser.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:06 PM

Where did the quote above re 'drain on public funds' come from? Probably if you asked the organisation involved http://www.mdaa.org.au/faqs/immigration.html"> Multicultural Disability Advocacy Association of NSW the coild tell you.

It sounds very much like the kind of language officials use when seeking to justify a decision that has been challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:08 PM

Where did the quote above re 'drain on public funds' come from? Probably if you asked the organisation involved Multicultural Disability Advocacy Association of NSW they could tell you.

It sounds very much like the kind of language officials use when seeking to justify a decision that has been challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:18 PM

I can't imagine a Govt Dept using that phrase in a letter to the applicant. That may be what they meant. But it sounds too crude for their language.

If sage could quote the reasons given in her letter we wouldn't have to guess who said what and meant what to whom.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:30 PM

It seems to me you must have had rather limited experience in dealing with Government Departments in this kind of situation, where a hardnosed decision is being defended.

Frequently the initial letter will just give a bald decision with minimal explanatin of reasons. In the subsequent correspondence the kind of phrase quoted would be very likely to appear.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 03:02 PM

I have both experience of Govt depts and disabled people. Which is what drew my interest to this thread.

I still maintain that the phrasing you quoted is most likely heard within a Dept behind closed doors, but not sent to an applicant, because of exactly the kind of reaction it has caused.

But we digress. Sage said her daughter was being discriminated against by the Australian Govt. We have as yet been given absolutely no evidence to support this.

I am not being contrary. I am one of lifes campaigners and will fight tooth and nail if I believe an injustice has occurred. But for me to be committed to a cause, I need to believe in it 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 03:39 PM

Send me a PM and I'll carry on discussing with you, "GUEST Date: 14 Nov 04 - 03:02 PM." Otherwise I'll assume you are playing games.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 03:58 PM

I don't have the time to play games on the internet. Feel free to make any presumption you wish, however wrong.

Your suspicion of me is aroused because I am not presenting you with the full facts, as in a handle.

I am equally suspicious of people who withold information.

Good Evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

The health component of the public interest criteria is designed to protect the Australian community from public health risks and from significant drains on health and welfare services in terms of costs or use of health resources in scarce supply.   (From the official Ministerial response to an extremely critical report on the case of Shazad Kayani made by the Ombudsman, following Mr Kayami's self-immolation.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:23 PM

So it was a phrase from an official body to another official body. Not the phrase used to the applicant. I never disputed that that is what they meant, just found it unlikely they would have used it to the applicant.

Now the only thing missing is what they actually said to sage.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:06 PM

Any letter to any private citizen in Australia is protected by the Privacy Act - Cindy is under no obligation to release its contents and GUEST you have no right to ask.

As she has left Australia, her whole legal situation would change and the contents of the letter are irrelevant. As well, they would have a statutory legal limit in days for any actions (appeals) etc which she could take. that 28 day appeal period is up, she was advised by her lawyers that a legal appeal would be a waste of time and money.

Cindy has indicated that therefore her first choice is to get Russell into the States, so there is no point in considering that letter. And if she were to try to get into Australia (if her husband's attempt to get back into the US doesnt work) the only person to consider that letter would be her lawyer.

so enough about the letter, already.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:27 PM

If someone asks for help I have every right to ask why. Based on the facts presented I can make a decision. Is that so very unreasonable?

If I had recieved such a letter I would be quoting it to anyone who would listen and could help.

If as you say the contents of it are 'irrelevant', why was it ever mentioned. Especially as it is from a Govt of a country that she does not wish to reside in?

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:45 PM

Agreed freda - so far as Cindy and her family is concerned it is irrelevant. And I am highly suspicious of the motives of that Unidentified Posting Object, who has apparenly declined (and ignored) the invitation to communicate by Personal Message.

The whole question of the Australian Government's policy of exempting questions of migration from the overall ban on discrimination against people on the grounds of disability is however relevant, in a wider sense. It would be interesting to know which other countries operate a similar policy in respect of children of their own citizens.

I think that, for the United Kingdom, it would no longer be legal to discriminate in this way, but I am curious about other countries, such as the USA, or other countries in the European Union. And how about New Zealand? Have they fallen into line with their Australian neighbours on this matter?

Like a good number of other Mucatters, I have a srong personal reasons for being concerned about any kind of discrimination against people with disabilities and their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM

"If someone asks for help I have every right to ask why. Based on the facts presented I can make a decision. Is that so very unreasonable?"

yes, your obsessive determination to discredit this family is unreasonable, don't even bother pretending that you are "helping".

"If I had recieved such a letter I would be quoting it to anyone who would listen and could help."

unless you understood, as previously explained, that once she leaves australian soil her legal situation changes, and the letter is no longer relevant.

"If as you say the contents of it are 'irrelevant', why was it ever mentioned. Especially as it is from a Govt of a country that she does not wish to reside in?"

Cindy has not said she does not wish to reside in Australia, rather she is unable to live there.

Cindy mentioned the letter happened as part of the process of explaining what has happened to that family. she was telling the history of events. in that context, it is relevant.

For someone who has a history of complaining loudly when your comments are deleted, you show a strange compulsion to be telling Cindy what she should say, what she should and shouldnt mention. I guess hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:57 PM

Jessica and I moved to Australia with Russell (in December of 2000). We fully intended to live the remainder of our lives there. Jessica and I applied for residency in Australia, but in November of 2003 our residency application was denied. The denial was based on medical grounds: Jessica would cost the Australian government to much money because she is mental ill. We were told we had to leave Australia.

Australia's decision sounded pretty relevant to sage when she wrote the above in her website.

I didn't ignore your offer McGrath. You gave me the option of proving my integrity by PM'ing you. Apart from the fact I would not have a clue how to do that, I didn't feel the need to PM what I had to say. I also don't need to prove myself.

Like you I have strong personal reasons for being concerned about discrimination when it comes to disability.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:58 PM

Freda I have no idea what you are talking about. I will ignore you and suffer the loss.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 06:00 PM

McGrath thankyou for taking the time to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:36 PM

How to send a PM.

1)Click on membership at the top of the page, and join. (Only information needed, an email address.)

2)Click on the PM next to the heading at the top of a post by the person to whom you wish to send a PM, and write it.

3)Click send.

To read any replies, click on where it says "Younhae messages" at the top of the page.

And of course it's possible to log out as a member and send posts to threads as a GUEST, either with or without a name.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: Kitty
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:06 AM

Unfortunately, friends, this thread is in danger of going the way of the other 3 threads---
Please may we get back to brainstorming how to help?
thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration and disability
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:53 AM

I'd suggest the brainstorming on how to help fits better on the Jessica and the Bureaucrats thread. With this thread being for any stuff about wider issues, such as other examples of this kind of thing happening; and also as a place for anyone who wants to argue about whether they think people should help or not.

That way, if people try to start or continue those kind of arguments on the help thread, it's crystal clear they are just trolling. And if it goes on here, they don't get in the way so much.