BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:37 PM

You never find fault with Jim or Rag or the Guest Muskets.

Of course I have. I have had words with both Jim and Musket on a few occasions. I will do again if you like.

Jim - You are too fixed in your ways.

Musket - You use too much abuse.

Raggy - You purposely wind Keith up too much.

Now, let us see if they actualy take that as a personal sleight and drone on and on at every opportunity for years on end or whether they behave like adults, take it on board and act on it or just ignore it shall we?

All histories in the last twenty years, confirm my three points.

But you have not read all histories written in the last 20 years, dear Keithy, dear Keithy.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:04 PM

Keith says:

"But history is the discussion Dave!"

Except that it isn't. Unless I am very much mistaken the threat title is:

"BS: Jingoism or Commemoration"

Started by Raggytash and referring to the Remembrance day events in the present day. So history is at best tangential.

You would have had a stronger case had you made this statement on the Churchill thread, although even there history is only relevant in so far as there is any evidence as to whether Churchill was a thieving cheapskate or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:06 PM

Dave, Yes you're probably correct.

In my defence have you ever had a scab you can't help picking at. That's how I feel about Keith, he's a nasty deceitful, lying scab and I can't help but pick at it.

Oh ............ I've done it again haven't I!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:09 PM

By the way, what does BS stand for? Is it the obvious?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:11 PM

See how grown ups act in the face of criticism. I think Jim is away but I am sure he will be pretty much the same. Accepted, Musket.

Yes, Dave, it does stand for the obvious. Amazing how many treat it so seriously isn't it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:52 PM

Nicely done boys you've just shown yourselves to be the Trolls that you undoubtedly are. Now toddle off and talk about beer.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:55 AM

What, teribums, and deprive you of your source of endless fun? Not likely! No matter what you think of us we would not treat the disadvantaged so badly :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:48 AM

Guest Dave, whatever the thread title, we have all been discussing history for weeks now, except DtG obviously.

DtG, absolute proof is a requirement in Science. That is why evolution is referred to as a theory and not a law.
You are Pete's natural ally. You should be out there arguing his case that it is not and can not be proven.

In human affairs absolute proof is rarely possible.
You can be hanged if the case against you is just proven beyond reasonable doubt.

It is beyond reasonable doubt that if a group of historians existed, or even just one, churning out work that contradicted all those prominent historians quoted here, then we would have come across it or at least some reference to it.
The fact that none of us have proves beyond reasonable doubt that there is no such group.

Jump and gyrate on your pin Dave, but it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that the historians agree on those three points.
Go hang yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:20 AM

Nah, that last line just doesn't work. Go hang yourself is both dated and sounds distinctly American. The historical aspect I can understand but why omit the standard English 'and'? May I suggest 'Go and fuck yourself' as an alternative? Still wouldn't work but it would sound better.

I don't understand the bit about Pete, sorry. I know and have always said that evolution is a theory and have never referred to it as a law. For the life of me I can't understand what you are on about.

On the 'the historians' bit, I am not sure if you are qualified to say something is beyond reasonable doubt. Shouldn't that be the prerogative of '12 good men and true' or some such? Anyway, funny thing is I agree that 'the historians' agree with you. I have always said as much. What is in doubt is what is meant by 'the historians'. You have been singularly reticent on the question of how many historians, world wide, meet your criteria. Do you not know? It would be interesting to all concerned to see what percentage of them you have studied. At a guess, what do you think it is? Half of them? A quarter? 10%? 1%? If you do not even know that how can it be that you are so sure that they all agree with you? Still, if nothing else, it keeps you off the streets I suppose.

Very interesting to note that you are floundering all over the place with your points and introducing a fair bit of poorly thought out abuse. It was you that suggested that abuse is only used in the absence of reasoned argument wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:26 AM

Dance away Dave, but no-one can or will find an historian who contradicts all the others.
I formed my views by reading history.
My attackers reject the findings of the historians believing they somehow know better.
Their vast conceit and delusion is laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:34 AM

Oh Historians have been found, however YOU have dismissed each and every one of them for a whole multitude of reasons, left wing, right wing, not sold in High Street bookshops, only published on subversive websites, not mainstream, not current, uses the wrong toothpaste perhaps. Where YOU get the AUTHORITY to dismiss the work of any historian is open to conjecture. Having said all that as you profess to know so much about the subject why don't you write a book about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:35 AM

My attackers reject the findings of the historians

I haven't rejected the findings of historians. I guess I must not be one of your attackers. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:36 AM

Keith,

I am surprised that someone who advertises themselves as a private tutor in Maths and Science should say that. Proof is a concept in mathematical logic. Science advances by the formulation of hypotheses which can be falsified. Newton's theory of gravity is such a hypothesis, it can be falsified in extreme conditions, such as high accelerations (relativity) and maybe low accelerations (MOND). But there is, and can never be, an absolute proof, and nor is one required.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:38 AM

Does he Dave? That's interesting! Wonder if he uses the Mudcat as a reference for potential clients? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 06:36 AM

Why did I think that this was relevant?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 06:42 AM

You are not the first and I don't think you will be the last to spot the similarity, Guest. I think they would have had a field day if years-long forum arguments had existed then :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:04 AM

Guest Dave, it is some time since my full name has been used.
Had you committed it to memory? Were you hoping to find some dirt on me?

Have you remembered the names of any of those historians yet?
You said, "we certainly do have examples above of historians who don't say this."
Who are they then Dave?
Perhaps when you said "above" you meant in heaven. I have acknowledged that there used to be some, but not any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:24 AM

Keith, what you didn't know is that I come from Hertford too, although I have not lived there for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:29 AM

Relevance?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 10:15 AM

the findings of the historians

What findings of which historians, Professor?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:08 AM

What is your AUTHORITY Keith for accepting some historians as valid and dismissing other historians as invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:11 PM

Greg, just on this thread you could have read Max Boot, Catriona Pennel, Margaret Macmillan, Max Hastings, Gary Sheffield, Dan Todman, and the OU History Faculty who provided the script for Paxman.
Many more on previous threads.

Guest, you do not become an historian just by saying stuff about history.
I have rejected no historian.

Unless and until one of you can find an historian who still believes that old shit you cling to, you have nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:15 PM

GUEST - 11 Dec 15 - 11:08 AM

"What is your AUTHORITY Keith for accepting some historians as valid and dismissing other historians as invalid."

AUTHORITY or CRITERIA GHOST?

1954 - 1958 - Material released under the 50 year rule
1984 - 1989 - Material released under the 70 year rule
2014 - 2018 - Material released under the 100 year rule

Material translated and released from foreign sources - for stuff from the German side that didn't happen until 1972, from the Russians it didn't happen until the 1990s. Only in the last two/three years have we found out exactly how British soldiers on the first day of the battle of the Somme suddenly found themselves with German troops at their backs occupying ground that they thought they had just taken.

So anyone writing about the First World War before 1969 only had a partial view of it - and that includes the writings of David Lloyd George. The subject matter is vast so for information reading something by someone who has specialised in the period gives you far more than say someone who wants to make a quick few quid and who just makes up shit in order to provoke controversy as a publicity stunt (Talking about Alan Clark and his book "The Donkeys" here)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:15 PM

Lets start with Hastings. Hastings has no academic appointment in any institution submitted to REF2014.

More later

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:49 PM

The BBC puts Hastings in its list of leading ten WW1 historians.
He has presented historical documentaries for the BBC.
In 2012 he was awarded the US$100,000 Pritzker Military Library Literature Award, a lifetime achievement award for military writing, which includes an honorarium, citation and medallion, sponsored by the Chicago-based Tawani Foundation.
Hastings is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, and the Royal Historical Society.

Opinion of another historian Nigel Jones.
" Hastings's recent massive volumes on his specialist subject, the Second World War, have shown why his position as Britain's leading military historian is now unassailable. They demonstrate not only his always formidable grasp of the nuts and bolts of logistics and strategy and an authoritative narrative sweep, but a new humane note of empathy not always present in military history, or indeed in his early works.
In this enormously impressive new book, Hastings effortlessly masters the complex lead-up to and opening weeks of the First World War. As a historian,"

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 03:15 PM

What gives YOU the right Keith to dictate which histories are valid or invalid. What do YOU bring to the party that no one else has. It is arrogance to the extreme to pontificate as you do. So just what is your AUTHORITY.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:07 PM

Nigel H. Jones (is this the Nigel Jones to whom you refer?) has no academic appointment in any institution submitted to REF2014.

Thought you would start with Pennel, Pennel is an academic at the University of Exeter, submitted to REF 2014. But I am still working on which publications are hers.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:25 PM

Nigel Jones,
His first book The War Walk: A Journey along the Western Front (1983) was inspired by his elderly father, Frank Jones (1890-1970), a Great War veteran. For it, he walked along the trench lines of the Western front, interviewing more than 30 veterans of the conflict. Among these was the German author and war hero Ernst Jünger.

His stay with Jünger inspired his second book Hitler's Heralds: the story of the Freikorps 1918-1923.(1987. Reissued in 2004 as A Brief History of the birth of the Nazis).

His third book was inspired by the discovery in 1988 of an archive of letters, papers and manuscripts of the English novelist and playwright Patrick Hamilton (1904-1962) which were bequeathed to him by Hamilton's sister-in-law Aileen Hamilton and used in his biography of Hamilton Through a Glass Darkly (1990 : reissued 2008).

In 1991 Jones moved to Vienna, Austria, where he joined the Austrian Broadcasting Corporation (ORF) and broadcast worldwide on Radio Austria International. It was at this time that his only stage play, End of the Night based on the life of French novelist Louis-Ferdinand Celine, was produced at Brighton's Pavilion Theatre in November 1991.

Returning to England in 1995, he worked as a freelance journalist for The Guardian and Spectator while writing his biography of the poet Rupert Brooke, Life, Death and Myth (1999).

He was deputy editor of History Today magazine (1999-2000) and Reviews editor of BBC History Magazine (2000-2003).

His next book was a brief life of Britain's Fascist leader, Sir Oswald Mosley Mosley published by Haus in 2004.

His recent publications include a history of the plots to assassinate Hitler Countdown to Valkyrie published by Frontline Books in January 2009, and Tower: An Epic History of the Tower of London published by Hutchinson in 2011 and to be released in the U.S. in 2012 by St. Martin's Press.

He is an historian and a prolific writer of histories.
The BBC, Telegraph, Guardian and other historians say he is an historian.

Some bloke called Dave says he is not on some register.
Should we ignore everything else Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:32 PM

The Research Excellence Framework (REF) is the new system for assessing the quality of research in UK higher education institutions.
As both are independent historians not higher education institutions, why would you expect them to be referenced Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:52 PM

You can't win, Dave. You do not know the rules and Keith will never tell you for fear of tying himself down to something he may regret later. Tying Keith down on what constitutes an historian is like trying to push butter up a porcupines arse with hot needle. On top of which, even if you did, he would never respond to what percentage of historians matching his secret criteria he has actualy read because he has no idea how many there are.

Best thing all round is either take Raggys's stance and wind him up or Musket's ploy of pointing out what Keith is, in no uncertain terms, at every opportunity. Alternatively you could just point out the errors in his logic which gets to him so much that he has no response but to ignore it, abuse you, or change the subject. Look, just watch what happens next.

Keith.
What is your criteria for an 'eminent historian'?
How many historians, worldwide, meet that criteria?
What percentage of their works have you read?

I have got 2 to 1 at Ladbrookes on the response...

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:21 PM

Perhaps I can facilitate:

Keith.
What is your criteria for an 'eminent historian'?

Left wing, right wing, sold in High Street bookshops, alive, published [sic] on popular websites, mainstream, current, uses the right toothpaste...

How many historians, worldwide, meet that criteria?

Only those that agree with the Professor's skewed view of reality.

What percentage of their works have you read?

None.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:34 PM

Now, come on Greg, that is unfair. Let the lad answer for himself. It will be far more informative.

See Keith - I criticise Greg as well :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 06:00 PM

It's not just on Mudcat. This is wonderful -

When you become a smart trolls personal enemy

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:30 PM

"What do YOU bring to the party that no one else has."

Above question asked by an anonymous GUEST of Keith A. I will answer - a damn sight better knowledge of the subject under discussion than you - good enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:38 PM

Dave the Gnome - 11 Dec 15 - 04:52 PM

"You can't win, Dave."

Do you know why, on this particular subject you can't win Gnome, Dave, Raggy; Musktwat; Jom, Shaw? Because you are arguing from ignorance , self-confessed ignorance at that - that is why you can't win. Get over it - move on talk about beer, talk about making cheese, talk about whatever useless crap that fill your lives, but whatever you do leave this one alone because over the course of the last two years you have all proved conclusively that you know S.F.A. about it and the lot of you are embarrassing yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:48 PM

Dave the Gnome -11 Dec 15 - 06:00 PM

"Smart Troll" Eh? You lot are anything but - you have been coaxed into displaying your ignorance and your snap up the bait and revel in it.

"Smart Troll"? You have got to be joking - a sadder bunch I have never seen in my life.

On this as on all those previous WWI threads that you managed to get shut down and deleted we are running rings round you. Not one single fact that we have put up have you lot been able to challenge all you have is personal abuse and ad hominem attack. Keep it coming you only succeed in making yourselves out to be complete and utter prats - hence all the de-clutching of cookies and posts as anonymous GUESTS - pathetic absolutely pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:38 PM

Could not agree more Teribus. A truly ignorant lot , post after post on a subject they know nothing about! And they look more and more stupid with each post.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:56 AM

"it's a long time since my name has been used"

If I was advertising myself as a tutor, I'd not want to be associated with the Keith A of Hertford logic either.

It's alright Dave, even when one of the other Muskets bumped into him once at a folk club in Hertford, he was on here stating that he never did. Despite the Musket not yet being a Musket. Come to think of it, I did a gig once in Hertford with a band I occasionally played in and I can confidently state that blah blah

He does have a competitor though. Terribulus's offensive posts are wonderful and because moderators give up the will to live before the end of the first sentence they are never deleted. So we can all scroll up and have a good laugh from time to time.

In fact, hang on...

😹😹😹😹😹😹😹😹
🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:35 AM

Dave, it is dancing on a pin again to talk about the exact number of historians in the world and percentages of them.

The relevant facts are that I have quoted numerous historians who agree my views because they are where I learned them, while those who attack those views can find none who agree with them.

Until they do there is nothing to discuss.

It is Jim, and Musket who make assertions about who is a historian.
Since he was first mentioned 3 years ago they have been denying that Hastings is one.
Guest should have said,
"What gives THEM the right to dictate which histories are valid or invalid. What do THEY bring to the party that no one else has. It is arrogance to the extreme to pontificate as you do. So just what is your AUTHORITY."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:38 AM

Same old Musket.
Just personal abuse and lies.
Nothing about any of the actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:49 AM

He doesn't know anything about the actual issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:21 AM

Teribus, Several points come to mind, firstly why are you answering a question put to Keith. Do you feel he is not capable of responding himself, do you feel he is inadequate and unable to elucidate intelligently on his own. Secondly I made no reference to Keith's knowledge on the subject of WW1, I merely asked on what authority he considered some historians to be valid but considered other historians to be invalid. Thirdly you have no insight into my knowledge of the subject, he do not know which books I have read or which books have passed me by. So perhaps you will do us all a favour and mind your own business and allow Keith (who you seem to believe is NOT knowledgeable and capable enough) to answer on his own. So Keith what is your authority to declare some historians valid and some historians invalid. PS Take no notice of your mate he seems to believe you are thick.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:34 AM

Non-person,
I can not always answer quickly am very happy for Teribus to answer for me.
I merely asked on what authority he considered some historians to be valid

I am not doing that.
Jim, Musket and now Dave are asserting that Sir Max Hastings is not an historian.

no insight into my knowledge of the subject, he do not know which books I have read or which books have passed me by.

None of the non-persons have posted anything revealing any historical knowledge.
If you have read any book of the last twenty years you will know it supports me.
If that is not a fact, name the book and author.

All the historians any of us can find support my views.
None have been found that do not.
Unless and until they are there is nothing to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:43 AM

Keith, that is not correct. Various historians have been mentioned in various threads, for instance Ferguson, who you have dismissed. I am asking what is your AUTHORITY to declare their work invalid and accepting as valid the work of other historians. Are you qualified in some way be denote which historians are valid and some historians invalid. By the way accepting that Teribus can answer on your behalf sounds like a cop-out and could come back to bite you at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:44 AM

See what I mean, Dave? :-)

I am well on my way to winning that £200

Teribums - Making beer and cheese is useless crap while discussing history that no one can do anything about is? Whatever rocks your boat I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:47 AM

So making cheese and beer is a waste of time is it. Well I'll be wasting some more time of Monday when it will be a day of making a cheddar which I intend to mature for at least 6 months. I'll get on the phone now to my mate who owns a brewery and tell him to close down because he is wasting his time making some exceptional beers.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:54 AM

Sorry, above was I.guest, I believe that both Keith and teribus have shown that they have a good grasp of the subject,. They have clearly stated their views and backed their views with facts. We do have insight into your knowledge of the subject, guest...it is in all of your posts. You appear to know nothing of the subject, same league as Dave and Dave, yet you all continue to make arses of yourselves,
Why not gracefully admit to ignorance and call it a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:09 AM

No they don't. Only the one's you consider valid do. Which indicates to me that you don't want to learn about the subject. You merely want your preconceptions backed up by a list of historians who regurgitate each others work. Rather pathetic really.

PS Guest Hilo, I don't recall you actually mentioning anything about the history of WW1 at all, sniping from the sidelines seem to be your bag. I wonder if your Teribus in disguise.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:17 AM

Well, Dave theGnome says the discussion isn't about history. Sniping from the sidelines......that is actually quite funny coming from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:21 AM

Max Hastings is a journalist, author and editor of right-wing newspapers. Keith you were asking for eminient historians to be respected by their peers, and Teribus stated that Hastings received good peer reviews in academic circles, but Hastings and also Nigel H. Jones sit outside the formal academic peer review system. They are not formally academic historians, they are amateurs in that they are paid to do something else. It is like describing the likes of Piers Corbyn and Benny Peiser as climate scientists, they each have an academic background but not in the subject that they make most of their statements about now. I have no background in history, and I have no real interest in what historians say about WWI unless there are revisionists who deny that millions died in the trenches. But I have heard nobody deny this, and therefore conclude that there was no justification for the sacrifice of all those lives, whatever historians might say about peripheral minutiae such as which bunch of inbreds occupies our throne.