BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:33 AM

Dave are you really saying that after dozens of posts on this thread that you know little history, have little interest in what historians have to say about ww1.no historian , revisionist or otherwise, has ever suggested or denied that millions died. Your really a very under informed person.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:45 AM

It is quite easy to do a Mudcat search.

After calling Musket a liar and Dave the Gnome wrong, you can search on what they said. To be fair, there is a hell of a lot but even just glossing through them, it is clear that Keith A of Hertford is being inconsistent and saying anything he likes in order to ridicule fellow posters.

I think he deserves all the flack he gets.

The person behind Hilo is certainly expressing the lo, we await the hi. He or she seems to be egging on their favourite football team against all odds rather than understanding the issues. Mind you, their team has a leaky defence, own goals but plenty of dribbling.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:04 AM

No Hilo, I am saying that millions did die and that historians instead of taking from that the fact the war was unjustifiable, focus instead on trivia.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:16 AM

GUEST - 12 Dec 15 - 05:21 AM

You have got to be joking haven't you - unless it has escaped your notice (And it probably has) this happens to be an open forum. You post something on it and anyone can answer and/or respond to points made. IF you wanted to have a discussion that was restricted to just yourself and Keith A you could PM him - but that wouldn't suit your purpose would it?

As to your knowledge well of course we don't have any idea do we - primarily because you never say anything on the subject - but I would say that I wouldn't be too far off the money in stating that along with the rest of the Let's mob, bully and ridicule Keith A crowd - on the subject of World War One - you haven't got a F**KIN' Clue.

You could of course confound us all and respond to this post with logical and reasoned arguments backed by substantive evidence countering the three points originally brought to our attention by Keith A, but I don't think that you will - that is why you hide behind the anonymous GUEST facility afforded on this forum - my guess is that you are Raggytash.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:22 AM

Dave, have you read any WW1 history at all?
Anything?

I am saying that millions did die and that historians instead of taking from that

The immense cost in human life is the most salient fact pertaining to that war.
Every historian deals with that fully in their work.
If you had read anything you would know that.

the fact the war was unjustifiable, focus instead on trivia.
Except that they do not.
If you had read anything you might know that too.

WW2 was comparable in cost.

All the mainstream media including BBC call Hastings a leading historian.
Go into any library or bookshop and you will find his works prominent in the history section.
The other historians acknowledge that he is an historian.
Some bloke called Dave who has read no history at all thinks he is not.
Who are you again Dave?
What is your credibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:23 AM

I'm Napoleon for that matter, Terribulus.

But what does it matter to you? Why does one anonymous contribution have to be attributed to Raggytash, another to me etc.

Why is that?

I couldn't stop laughing when you decided one poster was me despite at the time having not posted in months.

Bullies need to know who they are bullying I suppose. It's in the psyche.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:33 AM

GUEST,Dave - 12 Dec 15 - 06:21 AM

Max Hastings is a journalist, author and editor of right-wing newspapers. Keith you were asking for eminient historians to be respected by their peers, and Teribus stated that Hastings received good peer reviews in academic circles, but Hastings and also Nigel H. Jones sit outside the formal academic peer review system. They are not formally academic historians, they are amateurs in that they are paid to do something else.

Sir Max Hastings has been retired for some years now, if you want to be accurate, he writes occasional pieces for whoever he likes, he is also elected to become a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, here are some general facts about the Society - read 'em you might just learn something (Although in your case I rather doubt it - you seem to revel in illustrating that you are as "thick as shit" and proud of it)

"Fellowships are awarded to those who have made "an original contribution to historical scholarship", normally through the authorship of a monograph, a body of scholarly work similar in scale and impact to a monograph, or the organisation of exhibitions, conferences, the editing of journals and other works of diffusion and dissemination grounded in historical scholarship. Election is conducted by peer review and all applications must be supported by an existing Fellow. Applications are welcome from historians working within or outside the UK." - Source RHS Website

"Since it was founded in 1868 the RHS has become the foremost society in the UK working with professional historians and advancing the scholarly study of the past. We are a learned society with charitable status that is increasingly at the forefront of policy debates about the study of history. We work closely with the Historical Association, the body that leads on history in schools, the Institute of Historical Research, a central hub for the provision of research resources, and History UK (HE), a council of representatives of UK university history departments." - Source RHS Website

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:48 AM

" GUEST,Musket - 12 Dec 15 - 07:23 AM

I'm Napoleon for that matter

Figures Musktwat - IIRC he was a portly, egotistical, loser as well

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:09 AM

Me, I'm making cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:36 AM

If The Royal Historical Society recognises Hastings as an historian, it is of little consequence what a few Mudcat Lefties think.

The joke is that even if you did discount Hastings it would not weaken my case in the least because he is just one of many I have been quoting.
You made fools of yourself to no purpose!

Intelligent people learn history from the history books.
The Comrades reject all that and make their own shit up.
They can find not one person of knowledge to back them.

Unless and until they do, there is no discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:22 AM

Dave theGnome says the discussion isn't about history.

Did I? When was that then?

I think our toy soldiers are getting all upset because the nasty people are spoiling their little game. There is a phrase that the sergeant major in "It ain't half hot Mum" used to use that I think is very apt.

Oh dear, how sad, never mind :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:35 AM

Oh Dear, how sad, never mind? Sergeant Williams?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:39 AM

Just to address some of Terribulus's odd statements for a minute. (Against my better judgement.)

An interview with Hastings a few months ago in a flight magazine I was reading noted how prolific he has been in his history writing and noted his rather regimented "this much time writing then breakfast, two hours of reading followed by a walk followed by editing earlier notes etc etc." (Not exactly what it said but you get the gist.)

Not exactly in tune with your "retired" and "occasional" make believe is it?

Still, he is a retired hack writing history to make money for his publishers and try to make sure everybody remembers him when he is pushing up the weeds. He seems to have jumped on the idea of revision as a marketing tool. His defence of shooting deserters is about all I will remember him for. His published article saying posthumous pardons are just a stunt and the kangaroo courts were right is about as low as you can get.

Still, the title "historian" isn't protected. Never has been.

As I have had my writing on WW1 published, I'm a historian.

I have been published within the last twenty years, am eminent and Keith has read my work.

Sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:43 AM

Has anyone else noticed the correlation between Sergeant Williams and Teribus ?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:53 AM

Dave the Gnome - 12 Dec 15 - 10:22 AM

Reading through the narrative Gnome I rather think that we are ruining yours.

Ah Musktwat, the "occasional" applies to his journalism and irrespective of what you think - he (Sir Max Hastings) deems himself to be retired and oddly enough that is good enough for me, as is the fact that he is regarded as being an historian by the Royal Historical Society which counts far higher than a bunch of idiotic tooth-suckers on this forum who have never had a truly independent thought in their heads and are stupid enough to enter into a discussion to argue their point of view from a position of self-confessed ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:57 AM

Ah GUEST,Raggytash - 12 Dec 15 - 10:43 AM

Would that be the same Teribus, who with regard to the subject of the First World War, you wrote the following?:


"You are obviously interested in the subject and far more knowledgeable than some others on this forum."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 11:04 AM

Still can't see anything wrong with that assessment. However it doesn't mean that you are God's gift to the study of it, it doesn't mean you every pronouncement has to be taken a gospel, AND it certainly doesn't mean Haig was a good general.

Is that alright Sergeant?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 11:09 AM

I've sussed it!

If Teribus writes long enough essays (as well as cut and paste from The Conservative Book for Boys 1949) some of it HAS to make sense.

In the same way as an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters doing the Hamlet bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 11:23 AM

Reading through the narrative Gnome I rather think that we are ruining yours.

Deary, deary me. Running out of original thoughts as well as poor quality insults. It was Williams!

Just for you, teribums

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

These Royal Societies aren't quite as exclusive as that. I am a Fellow of one, in whose remit I have been a professional (i.e. paid to do it) but I know very well you don't have to be. If you cough up your sub, and you show a vague interest, you are in. Keith could join it, he knows which one.

DtG again I think he is confusing us, it was I who said that this discussion was not about history, but about whether Remembrance Day ceremonies were Jingoism or Commemoration, as evidenced by the thread title

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 01:55 PM

"it certainly doesn't mean Haig was a good general."

Good enough Raggy to command, plan and execute the most successful offensive campaign ever conducted in the history of the British Army which in only 100 days completely routed the German Army facing him and ending the First World War - That German Army, which in 1914 was considered to be the best in the world, Haig defeated it with Great Britain's first citizen army - good General? Certainly better than any he was up against and his record speaks for itself - something you would have known if you had bothered to read up and study it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 01:59 PM

Hells teeth GUEST Dave, you've a nerve talking about confusion! Half the time you don't know whether you are addressing Keith A or myself - who's point 3 were rabbiting on about further down the thread?

Oh Dear, how sad, never mind - diddums.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 02:10 PM

One crap General versus one not quite so crap General does not make the second one a good General. He's still a crap General however you wish to paint it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 02:19 PM

Teribus,

As to whether you have the knowledge to join the society of which I am a fellow (same as member) I have not a clue. Keith does have this knowledge I know because of a conversation on another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 02:21 PM

Glad you like the reference enough to copoy it teribums. Maybe, one of these days, you may have on original thought of your own. Not likely, I know, but I always like to hope for they best:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:48 PM

And your ability to actually make any reasonable, logical and objective judgement on what does and what does not make a good general is how good Raggy? From what you have posted on this and other WWI threads on this forum I would measure it as being pretty piss poor - Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:33 AM

BBC puts Hastings at the top of its list of "Ten leading Historians."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26048324
The Comedy Comrades, as ever, know better!

If Hastings did not exist, it would still be true that no historian agrees your nonsense, while I say what they say.
It is just a diversion. What else can the Comedy Comrades do?

They have to reject the actual history because it rubbishes their daft dogma.
They can never, never admit that their dogma is a lie.
Which it is.

Dave said,
"we certainly do have examples above of historians who don't say this."
Three days later and he has still can't name one!

Then there was "REF2014"
"ROTFL24/7" !

No-one with any knowledge still believes your daft dogma.
Come back when and if you ever find one.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:38 AM

Bloody hell. The jingo jankers are accusing reality of dogma now.

Excellent.

You couldn't make it up.

But they do.

🐴🐴🐴

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 06:10 AM

Very amusing Comrade Musket, but have you found anyone with any credibility who believes all that shit?
No?
Come back when you do.

I have lots.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 11:43 AM

What do you mean by all that shit and anyone with any credibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 12:51 PM

All that shit refers to those old, debunked and discredited versions of history that he and the others cling to.

The people with most credibility on matters of history would be the historians, like all the ones I have been quoting.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 12:57 PM

Your weird twisted take can never convince normal people till you dig up the war graves and pretend it never happened.

How can you stand at your local war memorial and pretend to care? Sick puppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 01:05 PM

"Normal people" learn history from the history books.

No normal person believes themselves to somehow know more about it.
Only you Comedy Comrades.
You have yet to find a single historian who still believes that shit, because it has been shown to be shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 01:16 PM

I never realised my granddad's generation were a set of liars. Even the ones buried in foreign fields.

Fucking disgrace, that's what you are.

As someone who claims to admire historians, I didn't think the mindset of Irvine was what you had in mind.

Go back to your toy soldiers. Laughing at you is becoming less funny, the more you post.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 01:19 PM

Even for you Musket, your above post is way over the line. What is the matter with you, disagree with people yes, but don't villify them for not agreeing with you. And Musket, read some history, it won't hurt...er.. or maybe it will...who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM

Ate you disagreeing with Musket or castigating him?

To me, Keith A of Hertford is saying something contrary to what happened and Musket is saying his revision of history is a slur on the memory of fallen soldiers and debasing the principle of "lest we forget."

From Musket's position, Keith's stance is everything Musket says it is.

If Musket is wrong, then not so.

Who is right? Are the soldiers there liars or are trendy commentators defending the establishment liars?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 03:54 PM

"Keith A of Hertford is saying something contrary to what happened"

Really GHOST - care to tell us all what that something is? - Somehow I don't think you will - Why do I think that? - Because you are just spouting meaningless drivel - like you always do - Now come on and confound and amaze us - It would make one hell of a change, a forum first in fact - But it ain't going to happen is it.

Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind.

PS: The Gnome would make an excellent "Lofty" - shorter, fatter, balder but still needs must when the devil drives.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:16 PM

Quite simple. Millions of men were killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:29 PM

Are the soldiers there liars or are trendy commentators defending the establishment liars?

The historians believe the words of the soldiers.
Words they left in tens of thousands of letters, journals and personal documents.
Words they wrote at the time.

Overwhelmingly, they knew and understood what they were fighting for, and they believed it the right thing to do.

The "establishment" of 1914-18 are long dead and no-one feels the need to defend them, trendy or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:32 PM

By the way GUEST - 13 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM perhaps you should get your terminology right with regard to who wrote what about the First World War and when it was they wrote it:

The Revisionists wrote their works between 1929 and 1969 and what they wrote contradicted the works written immediately after the war. It is those works that fostered the myths, lies and misrepresentations believed wholeheartedly by Jom, Musktwat, et al.

The "Historians" wrote their works after 1970 and have used information not available to The Revisionists to disprove and discredit the works published by them and the conclusions drawn by them. The work of the these writers is believed to present a fuller and more accurate picture of the period and the events, by the likes of Keith A and myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:35 PM

Guest. Kieth is not saying anything contrary to what happened.e is presenting a point of view taken by modern historians. I am both disagreeing AND castigating Musket. He has presented NO historical perspective and he appears to be bereft of any historical knowledge. He and some others here, who admit to knowing n history, go on and on in these threads about how Keith knows nothing. Not so, he does know things about history, far more than some of his detractors. So why this bullying and , frankly, quite ugly, attacks on someone who quite a lot on the subject ?

This is not about Keith at all. This is about people who , in spite of ignorance of the subject at hand, insist on denigrating people who clearly know more than they do.
I dislike bullies and I find that there are a few here who just don't admit to being misinformed. And hence, attack those who are informed.

Muskets stance is not that of an informed person, and he is not alone in this, it is the stances of someone who refuses to consider an alternative view.
Muskets position, as you call it, has nothing to do with history and everything to do with " I know nothing, but I am right. That is what is so galling about this constant bullying.
I would not suggest that soldiers are liars, nor has Keith ever suggested they were, however, first hand accounts are sometimes not as accurate as they could be.
Good history is based on meticulous research, not on disagreeing with Keith because you don`t like him.

   As an historian I do not always agree with Keith, but his facts are solid. Those who are underinformed ought to read more and shout less.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:45 PM

Still using my ideas then, teribums? Ah well, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Thank you :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:52 PM

BTW - Did you know that quote is attributed to Oscar Wilde and the full version is "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness". Too true...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 05:16 PM

And where Oh GHOST has anybody ever denied that millions were killed - I believe that everyone has belaboured the point. Even to the point of noting that according to all records that those who fought under Haig tended to die less frequently than their counterparts in the French or German armies fighting on the western front.

Well said GUEST,HiLo - 13 Dec 15 - 04:35 PM I share your dislike of bullies and it was the mobbing of Keith A on a WWI thread about two years ago that drew me into all this.

Ah my barely passable, shorter, fatter, balder "Lofty" Gnome the only other cross you have to bear of course is that, unlike you, Don Estelle could sing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 06:08 PM

I dislike bullies too.

Musket can defend himself but a swift butchers at the Onward Christian Soldiers thread shows Keith's appalling attempts to smear Musket.

Meanwhile, on this thread.. Teribus reckons that the early accounts, fresh and by many caught up in the war are all lies and only the more recent ones are accurate.

Oh, and Teribus's despicable personal comments aimed at Dave the Gnome above are beneath contempt.

They cannot argue with reality, and HiLo can't credibly defend their preposterous stance.

Donkey meat anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Hiloo
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 06:51 PM

Well, guest, you are a perfect example of my point. As to comments about Dave theGnome, he has admitted to little knowledge of the subject but insists on dozens of posts that he is right! How is that defensible ? As for personal "despicable" comments, well, I am sure that DtheG is used to those.
No one has attempted to smear Muskket. He just insists on setting himself up for ridicule then cries foul when it happens ! I hate bullies and he is one, thrives on ignorance, his own , and bellows when shown to be lacking in knowledge. He is not alone here. Perhaps it is time for this bullshit to be put where it belongs and allow people to have rational discourse!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:05 AM

Rational discourse?

This coming from someone who thinks Teribus is right when he says only recently written historical accounts are historical and anything written before is revisionist. He can't even grasp the meaning of words in plain English, and that's before you analyse the absurd fantasy he promotes.

Presumably you also defend Keith's provisos, added to whenever his silly make believe is found out. Let's see now.. Historians have to be living as of today's date, published somewhere or other in the last twenty years, their books available in Hertford library, oh, they have to be eminent too. Last and most certainly least, they have to support the political stance dreamed up by Michael Gove who, when education secretary decreed that WW1 history should be about success, victory and what a smashing bunch of people the military top brass are and were.

Everybody on here questioning that abomination merely remind us that the graves are the elephant in the room. That the stratified society 100 years ago had a very different take on soldier welfare and that duty and jingoism were the driving factors, not agreeing with the factors that made up the diplomatic mess Europe found itself in.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:08 AM

I would not say 'used to those' HiLo as it only happens on here. I would say that I could not give a shit what certain people on here say about me as it is obviously a load of bollocks. I would also suggest you look back over the thread for evidence that I insist I am right on something I know nothing about. It has never happened and it never will so your comments puts you as close to the load of bollocks category as those others. Are you going to provide that evidence? I am pretty sure I know the answer :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:47 AM

If Keith only reads books available in Hertford Library his choice will be pretty limited since it abandoned its rather splendid premises that I (and no doubt he) spent many hours in and moved into a rented broom cupboard in Maidenhead Street.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:51 AM

HiLo has a rather interesting debating style, when he/she is faced with a point they cannot answer, they post a couple of sentences of invective against their questioner, followed by "I hate bullies".