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ADD: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc (bawdy)

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little john cameron 26 Mar 02 - 11:04 AM
GUEST 26 Mar 02 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 26 Mar 02 - 11:48 AM
little john cameron 26 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,haryoungsr 26 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM
RichM 26 Mar 02 - 12:16 PM
TonyK 26 Mar 02 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,ferret 26 Mar 02 - 12:25 PM
little john cameron 26 Mar 02 - 12:37 PM
Jeri 26 Mar 02 - 12:50 PM
Lonesome EJ 26 Mar 02 - 01:25 PM
SharonA 26 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM
little john cameron 26 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM
Clinton Hammond 26 Mar 02 - 01:54 PM
SharonA 26 Mar 02 - 01:56 PM
GUEST 26 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM
Amos 26 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM
Jim Dixon 26 Mar 02 - 02:02 PM
SharonA 26 Mar 02 - 02:03 PM
Amos 26 Mar 02 - 02:05 PM
Kim C 26 Mar 02 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 26 Mar 02 - 02:50 PM
Willie-O 26 Mar 02 - 03:04 PM
Lepus Rex 26 Mar 02 - 03:20 PM
SharonA 26 Mar 02 - 03:41 PM
Bill D 26 Mar 02 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 26 Mar 02 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Chuck the Canuck 26 Mar 02 - 04:42 PM
CarolC 26 Mar 02 - 05:09 PM
GUEST 26 Mar 02 - 05:33 PM
gnu 26 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Mar 02 - 06:47 PM
Willie-O 26 Mar 02 - 07:02 PM
gnu 26 Mar 02 - 07:16 PM
Lepus Rex 26 Mar 02 - 07:18 PM
gnu 26 Mar 02 - 07:24 PM
michaelr 26 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM
ddw 26 Mar 02 - 08:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Mar 02 - 08:06 PM
The Pooka 26 Mar 02 - 08:35 PM
John P 26 Mar 02 - 09:02 PM
The Pooka 26 Mar 02 - 09:26 PM
CarolC 26 Mar 02 - 09:28 PM
GUEST 26 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM
gnu 26 Mar 02 - 09:45 PM
John P 26 Mar 02 - 10:09 PM
little john cameron 26 Mar 02 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,MerryBee 26 Mar 02 - 10:46 PM
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little john cameron 26 Mar 02 - 11:05 PM
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Subject: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:04 AM

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offence; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.

In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.

They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.

It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.

But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:

Amen

this was written by a student.ljc


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:41 AM

Aint that the truth LJC Fuck em all, pray and say what you like.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:48 AM

ballocks - you can pray out loud anytime anywhere, just don't MAKE students in classrooms have to pray or make it awkward for students to decline to do so. Pray on the street, pray in a building, out loud, anytime, but don't require others to join in, and not under the auspices of governmental agencies, including school boards and administrations.

How hard is this to understand?

No one is taking away your rights, so stop encroaching on others rights. The US is NOT, I repeat, NOT a 'Christian Nation'. It wasn't founded as one, it will never become one. It is a secular country that allows the freedom of practice of any and all religions, and does not sponsor a State religion. This 'Nation under God' thing didn't begin until the 1950's, with the Red scare of 'Godless' Communism, which was just a ruse to get the 'good Christian folk' to join the anti-Communism, and anti-union, and anti-Socialism crusade. And, sadly, it worked. Communism and Socialism as systems are not evil though particular regimes may be. What do you think is the system under which nuns and monls and priests live if not Communism? From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. They give up thier worldy goods and give a life of service and in return they are housed and fed and given a little spending money to do with what they like (a generalisation, but basically sound). & Northern Europe has many Socialist states that support or allow religious practices. The Soviet Union did not. Cuba is beginning to.

So the great evil of Communism, that it is godless and suppresses religious practice is not a part of its philosophy, any more than the US Constitution is in anyway a testament to the Christian beliefs of its creators.

Practice whatever religion you like, just don't make everyone else have to join you. Leave our schools alone. Get out of our government and look to your own salvation in your churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, shrines and homesand in your daily lives.

And every now and then we can all get together and sing some good old time hymns we all know and love, whether we believe in what they espouse or not!

And why is it a surprise that this was written by a teen? Shakespeare it ain't, but it's not bad, it scans pretty well, but teens are pretty smart, inteligent, generaly ok folk. Leave em alone, give them some space to hang out, do thier thing, and they'll be ok.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM

For"CHRIST SAKE!!!"Bill,that's the maist Oxymorons ah've ever seen in a single post.Whit a pile o' rubbish.ljc


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,haryoungsr
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM

i for one think schools should be a place where no religion is celebrated in our schools i see xmas trees xmas decorations but no kwanzaa,ramadan,a bit chanukah but only a token amount there ought to be a law schools are disgracefula t xmas time time to close them down from thanksgiving to after new years


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: RichM
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:16 PM

The question is, whose god should people worship?

Mine?
Yours?
His?
Hers?
Theirs?

Already, it's complicated.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: TonyK
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:20 PM

LJC: I support your right to express your opinion. I thought the choice of language in your post, intolerant, was not something that would attract a prospective Christian. To my recollection, the only people Jesus did not tolerate well were the religious intollerants. Love God and love your neighbor.

Bill K: I like your post a lot.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,ferret
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:25 PM

live and let live


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:37 PM

Whit bit is it ye object tae Tony? ljc.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:50 PM

What did you learn in school today?
Mommy, I learned how to pray
I asked Jesus to forgive my sins
For my heart's where the devil's work begins

It's good they're teaching wrong from right
And the schools have finally seen the light

What did you learn in school today?
Mommy, we followed the Jewish way
We learned that Jesus was a phoney
And for lunch, they wouldn't let us eat bologna

Well, I don't think that those higher powers
Should teach beliefs that are not ours!

Today we prayed on knees and hands
Towards the place where Mecca stands
At Islam, teacher had us look
She'd read all about it in a book
What's next? Of Paganism will they speak?
Well no, at least not till next week.

Mom, religions they have stopped explaining
Too many parents were complaining
That beliefs should not be taught by teachers
And they were better left to preachers

I'm glad that they finally saw the light
Prayer in school just isn't right


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:25 PM

I'm not big on teaching religious instruction or celebration in school, but we damn sure need classes on ethical behavior, since so many kids get their concept of right and wrong from MTV.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM

Amen to that, LEJ! ';^)

Ljc: What bit of Bill's post did you object to? The only part I had trouble with was the concept that teenagers will be "ok" if they're left alone to hang out. Perhaps that works if they're not left alone as children – if they're brought up to be mindful of others' rights and feelings and respectful of their own bodies and characters – but sometimes, even then, they don't turn out "ok."

By the way, were there some lines missing from the original poem? I see no rhyming line for "The law is specific, the law is precise." I assume that there was no rhyming line for "So, Lord, this silent plea I make:" since it was a silent plea!


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM

Mah point isnae aboot teachin Religion,it is aboot no' bein aloud tae say ah wee prayer tae whaever.Look aroon ye,the bloody place is gaun doon the tubes. ljc


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Subject: Ya...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:54 PM

Religion has no place in a school... A school is an institute for higher learning...

Ya want religion?

Go to the building down the street with the stain glass windows and the bell!

And while I'm at it... this is a family place... can we keep the profanity, at least out of the subject lines???


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:56 PM

Didn't Jesus teach that prayers are best said in private, where only God can hear?


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM

Is your english as bad as your scots Cameon..you are shameful in both from what I can see. I wish you would stop that silly dialect thing. You do it badly and it makes it difficult to understand you, which is the point of communicating, is it not.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM

John:

As far as I know, noone has been forbidden from praying. The law at least at the Constitutional level is against the establishment of any religion or religous sponsorship by the government. This mandate is called "the separation of Church and State", colloquially. It is NOT called "the separation of religion and individual".

The issue is that our government must NOT support one religion or another in any way the encroaches on the freedom of individuals to worship as they choose.

I grant you that the current Residency is striving mightily to weasel the issue and duck the principle. But that is the source policy.

IO highly concur that an education in the nature of ethics and philosophy would be a wonderful thing to require of high schools.

I am sure there are those who would whine about that too!! "We don't need no stinking Greek philosophers -- buncha furriners!! I get all the fee-losofy I need from this here Aramaic testamentary!!"

A


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:02 PM

The Christian right is forever misrepresenting the law to make it appear that they are victims. The law does NOT say you can't pray in public schools. (Which is not to say there has never been a school official somewhere who has misunderstood the law and incorrectly TRIED to prevent students from praying in school.)

What the law mainly says is that teachers and administrators in public schools can't LEAD prayers or order that prayers be said. But if students on their own initiative decide to pray, there's nothing you can do to stop them. (Unless they're doing it in a disruptive way somehow, but you wouldn't want to do that anyway, would you?)

But if you ask me, there are plenty of good RELIGIOUS reasons not to pray aloud in public schools.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:03 PM

I found the reference for my last post: Matthew 6:6

Here are the first 6 verses of Matthew 6 (King James Version of the New Testament):

[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
[5] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


I don't know if the other major (or minor) religions have similar edicts, but many Christians tend to ignore this one!


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:05 PM

Beautiful prose, eh?

We'd all do well to take it to heart regardless of which metaphysical convictions we choose.

A


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:39 PM

When I was in the 4th grade, in 1976, my public elementary school did a holiday program wherein Christmas and Hanukkah traditions were included. Nobody batted an eye, nobody made a peep. 'Course that was a long time ago.

I think what is happening is that some people want to strive for diversity but only for the minority populations, then the majority populations feel slighted. Does that make sense?

Sure, there's no law in the US against praying wherever you want to. But what happens is that some well-meaning people misinterpret that to mean that Jimmy can't say a blessing to himself before he eats his lunch in the cafeteria.

Has anyone considered the idea of approaching religion in school from a historical standpoint? Whether a person participates in a religious faith or not, religion is a worldwide concept which often dictates how people behave. I think it could be useful for young people to learn about it from a factual basis.

Anyway.... I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say...


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:50 PM

where is the anecdotal or other evidence that Jimmy couldn't say his blessing?

If there was such a case, shame, stupid. But I don't believe there has been or ever will be such a case.

Make up something more egregiously outrageous and stupid, and people will again say, 'yeah that's wrong'. But it hasn't happened.

'Jimmy, say all the prayers you want at lunch or anywhere else'. Some other kids might make fun of you if your lips move too much, but kids are cruel.

There are courses in History of Religion in must colleges and universities, some high schools, but my fear is that courses like this might become teach all about Christianity for 8 months and spend a month on all the other religions, if that. And again, I have no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this has ever happened, and so I'm not giving an example of what abuse has occurred, but I can see that it might happen in some communities. And ad hominem attacks do not advance your argument or support your theories. to each his own.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:04 PM

Wey-ell, Ah'm confused.

Most posters here are assuming this is about (aboot) the US of A. John, aren't you still in Newfoundland? (a province where a religious-based school system has been the norm until very recently--change is occurring now, I believe. Is that what prompted this?)

And anywhere that is enjoying a neo-conservative governmental regime, it ain't exactly a "freedom scene" in high school. Dress codes, limited arts options, and lots of uninspired fact-cramming passing for a "new curriculum"--I'm speaking as a parent of a very bright 15-year-old who is flunking out of grade 10 because it won't meet her halfway (and neither will she).

We fought and won the battle against compulsory school prayer and "religious education" years ago. I'm still glad about that, but there's little more to cheer for in the current educational regime.

And someone who would lump together "vampires, witchcraft and totem poles", in an apparently negative context, needs a broadening of horizons more than a prayer meeting.

W-O


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:20 PM

Gee, I got some really neat-o religious spam, written by some ignorant lower-midwestern cow posing as a poor, oppressed Xtian teenager in my inbox today! Maybe I should cut and paste it here, too? :P

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:41 PM

Willie-O: The poem that ljc posted refers, in the first stanza, to "this great nation under God". I suppose that most Americans would take this as a reference to the US Pledge of Allegiance. ljc didn't say where he found the poem, or where the student was from, so we can't assume that the author is someone ljc knows.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:59 PM

"Freedom of religion must necessarily imply the right to freedom from religion for those who so choose"

pray all you wish, but not AT me, not as part of the school procesure, and not in a way that assumes I am in agreement with your prayer/diety.

(and {USA} take those two words back out of the "Pledge of Allegience" and those four words off my money!)


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:14 PM

Bill D. hear, hear, but first of all why is there a Pledge of Allegiance? do away with the whole thing, AND take those four words of the money, AND stop the swearing-in of our government leaders on a Christian bible, etc. There has been more and more encroachment of religion into our civil institutions over time, and many people today do not even know that those words weren't on money until 1864, or that there was no Pledge of Allegiance until 1892 (written by a Christian Socialist), with no mention of 'under god' in it until the Knights of Columbus rammed it through a red hunting Congress in 1954, and that there is no law requiring it be said in schools or anywhere else until recently. We do not threaten the majority, just leave us be free! by 'we' I mean all individuals, ----believers in god, or gods, or satan, or nothing, or whatever.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Chuck the Canuck
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:42 PM

Hey Little John Cameron,

Aren't you supposed to be Canadian? All of the stuff cited in your poem might pertain to the U.S.A. with its constitutionally mandated separation of church and state, but that is not the case in Canada.

The Lord's Prayer is still recited at the beginning of the day in many Canadian schools. As a Jew who was forced to learn the Lord's Prayer when I went to school, I wish we had that separation here.

Chuck the Canuck


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:09 PM

ljc, I just heard on the CBC news about the two boys in Corner Brook who have been arrested for planning to kill a bunch of people. Is that what's got you feeling like the place is going down the tubes?


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:33 PM

It has been almost two years since the murders at Columbine High School. The press never covered this presentation to the US government last year. The message has not changed.

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 Subject: The Country Needs to Hear this - Not in the news

On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.

They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well.

It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers."

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA."

"I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent. "I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves."

"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today:

"Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer.

Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question "Why?"

You enact restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need!"

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and reek havoc. Spiritual presence's were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws."

"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored."

"We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God! As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes. He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain."

"Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!" +++

Do what the media did not - - let people hear this man's speech. Please send it out to everyone you can!

The problem is probably even worse here in Canada


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM

I am moved... in two ways. First, it's quite a speech. Second, before it's sent out by anyone, can it be verified as correct and actually given to the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee by this individual ?


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:47 PM

"As a Jew who was forced to learn the Lord's Prayer when I went to school..." But surely it's really a Jewish prayer anyway to start with? (The only problem with it, according to this rabbi, appears to when people call it "the Lord's Prayer" rather than the Our Father. It's always been the Our Father for me.

"Some other kids might make fun of you if your lips move too much, but kids are cruel." So that's all right? And that doesn't interfere with the freedom to worship?

I think there is much more danger that a ban on public prayer is likely to generate fundamantalism than the reverse. If people laugh at you for praying in public and you go ahead and pray in public anyway, that's very brave - but you could be well on the way towards becoming vulnerable to fanaticism. Whatever your religion.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:02 PM

It's pretty sad to see a parent who has been through personal tragedy simultaneously disclaim any sympathy the NRA while acting as a mouthpiece for their most cherished and often-repeated piece of nonsense the "guns don't kill people" argument. Which is PURE BULLSHIT.

And by the way, re "no amount of gun laws can can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre." Well, I beg to differ. A teenager tried to re-enact his version of Columbine in a high school two miles from the one I went to (in Ottawa). This occurred on the first anniversary of the massacre. Guess what: he stabbed five people including himself. They all lived.

Cause he couldn't get a gun...

W-O

There ain't no God...obviously.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:16 PM

"PURE BULLSHIT" Willie-O is the fact that this society we live in doesn't give a shit about about the problems of the poor, the dis-enfranchised, the inequailties... ad infintum. Simple fact is, guns do not kill people, period, and no amount of shouting otherwise can change that FACT. If people like you keep spouting your bullshit instead of making the powers that be address the real problems, YOU ARE THE FUCKING PROBLEM.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:18 PM

Christ, people are cranky around here today...

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:24 PM

Yup, especially when I hear that kind of absolute bullshit. If you don't address why people kill people, their choice of weapon doesn't even enter the equation, and some people can't even ADD !!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM

See why I think political/religious arguments are a waste of time? Let's talk (not shout) about music, where there's at least some chance for consensus.

And save me, Lord, from your followers.

Peace,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: ddw
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:01 PM

I'm moved, too. Made me wanna puke. It is just the kind of misrepresentation of the facts that posters above have been trying to explain. Nobody has passed any laws OUTLAWING prayer. They have only outlawed FORCED PRAYER. At least the guy got it right that it is not the NRA's fault, but then he loses it for the same reason most believers lose it: they can't imagine how anybody can object to their beliefs, even when they try to force them on the non-believers. Learn a basic truth, folks —- some people find religion at least as offensive as religious people find non-belief.

Seems to me, then, that the best thing is to just shut up about it.

Morality and ethics can and should be taught without any religious base —— just start from the precept that human beings have to live in societies and extrapolate what any action would to the that society if everyone practised it. You can reach some pretty good decisions that way.

BTW, ljc, who would you have lead the prayers in your schools —— the priests and bishops of Boston? Or some of their MANY Canadian counterparts?

david


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:06 PM

Well you can always kill someone with a paperweight. But that's really not what they are for. And you can always use a pistol as a paperweight. But that's really not what it's for either.

If you want to kill a lot of people a gun it's much easier to do with with a gun than with a conventional paperweight.

And if you want to get people killing each other, arguing anbout religion is quite a good starting point.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:35 PM

Whew. This is not the best-humored of threads. / However.

Mr. McG. of H., as usual you speak wisdom. Right On, on both counts---especially the latter, which nicely reconnects the split ends into which this here thread has ravelled. For an end to the worship of the graven idol of the gun: Let us Pray.

ljc, what policies are there on school prayer in Scotland? (As you know, I for one dinna mind if ye answer in dialect.)


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: John P
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:02 PM

How amusing that someone complaining about the separation of church and state, and claiming that morals are not taught in schools, uses extreme profanity in the title of a thread on an open forum.

How offensive that so many people apparently think we can't behave ethically unless we are steeped in religious teachings.

How amazing that so many people persist in the belief that guns don't exist to kill people and aren't uniquely suited to that task, and that the NRA doesn't bear any responisbility for the easy availability of these deadly devices.

How sad -- and bigoted -- that anyone thinks Christianity makes any more or any less sense than "vampires, witchcraft, and totem poles."

How strange that any Christian in the Western world, especially the United States, given the vast number of laws we all have to live with that are Christian in origin, would believe that their rights are being trampled.

How sinful for a religious person to think that anyone could ever stop you from praying -- if your real goal is to commune with god, not the loud proclamation of your faith.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:26 PM

Oh dear.

Well anyway - ljc, before you finally eff-a' tae dae wi' music, an sae rantin'ly & sae wantonly gae over tae the politics altogether, have you peeked at all these "Tyneside" Lyr Add's being posted tonight?? In me ignorance I dunno if they're Scots or Northumberland or both, or wot; but I thought mebbe ye might like 'em. (Sure are a *lot* of 'em.) Just thought I'd mention it. Y'know, before the next incoming barrage, here. / Woops! Duck!!


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:28 PM

I think they're Geordie songs. That would be Yorkshire, right?


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

Find one piece of interesting commentary (that does not fit the normal Left Wing Social Engineering) and nobody asks why it wasnt reported to the population by the media? Had he condemed the NRA it would be front page news, and quoted for years afterwards. I find it sad.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:45 PM

Rest ye well when the power of the gun is only in the hands of the rich. Just remember, you are the ones that gave it to them. You think there is disparity now ? You won't even have a voice at the Cafe. Study some history or be doomed to repeat it.


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: John P
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:09 PM

Guest,
Perhaps the Columbine father's words to Congress were not widely reported because his speech was rather idiotic. He states that the reason there are people killing each other in schools is because we are no longer enforcing Christianity as a state-sponsored religion in our schools. I know that the man was in a lot of pain, and I feel deeply for his loss, but the whole concept is stupid. He also apparently feels, as do some of the people who have contributed to this thread, that individual prayer has in some way been outlawed. I for one am glad the press didn't see fit to trumpet this man's belief in the superstitions of the Christian mythology. Would you find it odd if the press failed to report someone standing before a congressional committee and telling them that all the problems in our schools would be solved if every student was given a pyramid shaped crystal and told to use it every day to meditate on peace?

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:20 PM

If ye wid take time tae read the post ye'll notice that ah never said ah agreed or disagreed wi' the poem.
This wis an email ah got yesterday.Ane o' they pass-it-oan thingies.Personally ah couldnae care less whether it is alood or no,although ah doot ye could stop the youngsters fechtin an' scrappin long enough for a prayer.Hae ye been in the schoolyaird lately?
There must be some reason,no' the prayin or lack o' it,why the youngsters are oot o' control.If ye want tae hear language jist try listenin tae them.
Mibbe ah should hae postit the original.Here it is,an' naw it wasnae Susan!!
--------------------------------------------

FW: Fwd: Fw: Please Pass it on!!!

> > > > > > Since the Pledge of Allegiance > > > > > > and > > > > > > The Lord's Prayer > > > > > > are not allowed in most > > > public schools anymore > > > > > > because the word "God" is mentioned.... > > > > > > a kid in Arizona wrote the attached > > > NEW > > > School > > > prayer. > > > > > > I liked it.... > > > > > > > > > Now I sit me down in school > > > > > > Where praying is against the rule > > > > > > For this great nation under God > > > > > > Finds mention of Him very odd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Scripture now the class recites, > > > > > > It violates the Bill of Rights. > > > > > > And anytime my head I bow > > > > > > Becomes a Federal matter now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our hair can be purple, orange or green, > > > > > > That's no offence; it's a freedom scene. > > > > > > The law is specific, the law is precise. > > > > > > Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For praying in a public hall > > > > > > Might offend someone with no faith at all. > > > > > > In silence alone we must meditate, > > > > > > God's name is prohibited by the state. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks, > > > > > > And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks. > > > > > > They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible. > > > > > > To quote the Good Book makes me liable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen, > > > > > > And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King. > > > > > > It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong, > > > > > > We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can get our condoms and birth controls, > > > > > > Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles. > > > > > > But the Ten Commandments are not allowed, > > > > > > No word of God must reach this crowd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's scary here I must confess, > > > > > > When chaos reigns the school's a mess. > > > > > > So, Lord, this silent plea I make: > > > > > > Should I be shot; My soul please take! > > > > > > Amen > > > > > > > > > > > > If you aren't ashamed to do this, > > > > > > please pass this on. > > > > > > > > > Jesus said, > > > > > > " If you are ashamed of me," > > > > > > I will be ashamed of you before my Father." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not ashamed. Passing this on . . > > >

> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. >

---------------------------------------------

Ye'll also notice that ah hae postit "ljc" oan mah headins lately so that ah'll no' upset the sensibilities o' the language polis. Mah apologies for the "word" oan the title o' that ane.Should be ok in here though so fuck,fuck ,fuck.Ah that felt guid.ljc

ps,it wiil probably come oot funny as ah cannae be bothered wi' the line breks!!!

. ____________________________________________________ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,MerryBee
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:46 PM

gnu, anagram of 'gun'perhaps. Big reaction from you,BIG!!I guess you're a strong N.R.A. supporter from that sort of jumping up and down.See that's the big problem with you boys and your toys your'e just too busey playing.

MB


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

CarolC - thanks. I dunno this stuff. I was guessing vaguely, from the "Tyneside" reference in the Lyr Adds. Actually I was just trying to distract ljc. To wit:

ljc, since yer back -- fuggedabout yer Topic fer a minnit; wot d'ye say aboot them Tyneside songs? :)


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Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:05 PM

Ah love that stuff.We could stert anither rammy aboot whether it is a language or a dialect. ljc

Ah hae a bunch o' Stanly Holloway oan audio if ye want.PM ME YER EMAIL IF YE DAE.


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