BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM

Steve, I had already quoted the separate words of dismissal he used to rubbish them.
I did not change the meaning.
He rubbished and dismissed them both, as I did, and endorsed the findings of current historians, as I do.

His whole article endorsed the case I was making.
I had no need to misrepresent him, and I did not.

And that was in 2014, and its all you can put up against me.
My reputation is intact Steve.
Your accusation, "we often find we can't believe a word you say." can not be substantiated, like so many assertions you make.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:18 PM

"The obscene profit in ceramic poppies was presented as a linked fact."

Come on then Jom provide us with a link that supports your preposterous claim with regard to the Ceramic Poppies.

Here are some actual facts 888,246 poppies made, cost of manufacture, packing and transport ~£8 million (Cost per poppy £9). All poppies sold for £25 each generating £22,206,150 leaving ~£14 million to be split between six nominated charities by the Royal British Legion.

"Charities benefiting from the Tower of London poppies are set for a £1 million boost after George Osborne announced he will waive the VAT from the sale of the ceramic flowers."

The British public did not lose out as this £1.1 million would be made up with resulting fines levied on Banks caught up in the Libor Scandal. So Jom Charities benefited to the tune of over £15 million. Now what obscene profits are you wittering on about

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:29 PM

I'd give up if I were you, Steve. If you tell a lie enough times some people will believe it. You and I and many others know the truth and all that matters is that you know really.

I can't recall how often I have used this quote. Just once for ake, twice for someone else and the rest for Keith. Are you sure your in-laws speak the same language? :-D

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
   
Lewis Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM

Just remind me cherriblossom about how good the accuracy and precision of shelling a known target is. .What was it you said, something like aim, amend,correct and then hit the target. Precision I think came into it somewhere

I have a bit of a problem when one part of the British forces are raining shells down on another part of the British forces. Especially when you consider that one part of the British forces where in fact tethered on a stretch of quite a narrow river in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue.

Exactium my arseium. Couldn't hit a barn door at five paces. Hope you could do better when you were doing the firing, although I somehow doubt it.

Go back to playing at being soldiers, you seem to be slightly better at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:44 PM

Hey Cherryblossom you still haven't responded to my earlier questions.

Can you tell us the percentage of your practise artillery firing was accurate:

1. From the first shot.

2. Overall.

3. Would your figures have been achievable in 1916.

Don't bother with the last one I think everyone knows the answer to that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:50 PM

Yet another own goal Raggy:

"in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue."

Would that be the population that was cheering the British troops on Raggy? The population that DeValera purposely put at risk, while at the same time claiming to represent - I'd have told him to f**k-off and represent somebody else, in 1916 preferably German?

Ranging for NGFS? Two possibly three shots to direct the guns onto target then once the order "Fire for effect" is given there can be anything up to 60 shells on their way to the target before the next shell lands. Even HMS Belfast tied up in the Pool of London when in commission could manage 120 6" shells - I believe that she was once used to stop an attack by a Panzer Division that was threatening one of the landings in Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:40 PM

Not answering the questions yet Cheeriblossom. Trying to fudge and deflect as per normal.

The British troops with a gun apiece were firing at each other
.............. wonderful military joined up thinking and co-ordination there.

Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away.

(That is each other, not the flag which, bless 'em, they did manage to hit once, three cheers for the Royal Navy hip, hip ..... OK don't bother)

Yet another example of the might of the British Empire in all it's glory.

What the hell HMS Belfast has to do with this particular discussion I don't know .......... except for it is another feeble attempt to deflect criticism away from your beloved, but inept armed forces.

Go back to your toy soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:57 PM

" Yet another own goal Raggy: in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue."

Exactly that Cherrycola. The British forces were trying to subdue the city.

The views of the resident population counted for naught whether they supported the rising or not. I doubt if a consensus of opinion was taken ............... unless you of course, with your wonderful insight into military intelligence, know different.

PS Do not know what an oxymoron is?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:30 PM

The British troops with a gun apiece were firing at each other
.............. wonderful military joined up thinking and co-ordination there.

Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away.

(That is each other, not the flag which, bless 'em, they did manage to hit once, three cheers for the Royal Navy hip, hip ..... OK don't bother)

Oh dear, how sad, never mind Raggy another own goal based on ignorance. As far as gunnery goes you know nothing, and even when you supply the link you completely fail to understand what it very clearly stated. Just for you I will take you through it. It is no surprise to me at all that no-one was killed and that HMY Helga even although tied up alongside the wall was not hit.

Go back and read what I said was required to obtain a "Firing Solution". Then piece together how many elements the gunners firing did not have.

Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it.

Without any shadow of a doubt fire from Helga's 12 pounder hit Liberty Hall, Bolands Mill and Sackville Street. The fire on Liberty Hall (Helga's longest engagement) lasted only three and a half hours.

The fires in Sackville Street were initially started not by artillery fire but by looters, in the following days both sides started fires to cover their movements and to hinder attacks. The fire in the Irish Times was started when rolls of print paper caught fire after the building was hit by a HE shell, the Druggists when oil caught fire, there is no evidence at all regarding incendiary shells being used. The majority of soldiers deployed from England were straight out of training and had been waiting at Watford to be deployed in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:41 PM

The views of the resident population counted for naught whether they supported the rising or not. I doubt if a consensus of opinion was taken ............... unless you of course, with your wonderful insight into military intelligence, know different.

Certainly the views of the population meant nothing to the rebels.

As to a consensus Rags who was it the citizens of Dublin were cheering as they hauled that gun through the streets? When food supplies started to run low throughout the city who was it that opened the warehouses and distributed food to where it was needed? Give you a hint it certainly was not Pearse, Connolly & Co.

When they abandoned the GPO and moved into Moore Street they again deliberately put civilians at risk as when they moved in the civilians tried to flee, unfortunately nobody on the rebel side cared enough to let the soldiers know that, finally to prevent further loss of civilian life and in an impossible situation Pearse and Connolly decided to surrender - after six days the rebel Irish Government made a decision with the best interests of the people in mind - six effin days too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM

"Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOUR TARGET IS YOU STAND NO CHANCE OF HITTING IT"
(Terribus quote, my capital)

So, they were just firing at something they thought might be vaguely over there somewhere.

Now MOST people would describe that as indiscriminate.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:11 AM

Rag,

I have a bit of a problem when one part of the British forces are raining shells down on another part of the British forces

Eye witnesses sometimes lie, and myths are created.
He claims that the gunners, suddenly provided with a game changing weapon, use it to blaze away at a flagpole instead of the rebels.
Why?

He says that the shells landed near the Helga which is ridiculous. They would have landed two miles further on.

He says the spray soaked the crew. Such puny rounds could not even splash the deck.

The log of the Helga would report coming under fire if it really happened.
It does not. The whole thing is a fantasy. A lie on which a myth has grown.

Log of Helga
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XxV4CwAAQBAJ&pg=PT52&lpg=PT52&dq=log+of+the++helga+dublin&source=bl&ots=DXOF7sGF7f&sig=-Y1GA

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:14 AM

A definition of indiscriminate fire by Mr Teribus from a day or two back "By the way indiscriminate fire is when you just blaze away in a general direction for an indeterminate time with no attempt made to identify or hit a specific target"

Hmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:22 AM

When you can produce the log of the Helga and not some snippets from another cut and paste maybe someone will take notice professor.

By the way Teriblossom seems to think they did shell Sackville Street I'm sure you said they didn't.

Quote from Cherryblossom "Without any shadow of a doubt fire from Helga's 12 pounder hit Liberty Hall, Bolands Mill and Sackville Street"

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:17 AM

Thanks for that link Keith very interesting.

Raggy please indicate where I state that I believed the tale about the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga exchanging fire? You crowed about it and gleefully wittered on about how they couldn't hit a stationary target - I merely offered you an explanation as to why under such circumstances they wouldn't hit each other.

Toddle off to a nice quiet place and sit down and read your "Volunteers" story one more time and this time read it with a healthy dose of scepticism, ask yourself how he while under fire in a city centre that was under fire and under siege manage to:

1: Observe what the Sherwood Foresters were doing from their position whilst simultaneously being able to observe what the gunners on the Helga were doing.

2: How was he capable of witnessing respective fall of shot simultaneously.

You see Raggy it simply does not add up to any sentient human being, but makes a great story for the gullible.

According to RTE's chronological account of the Easter Rising:

Tuesday 25th April 1916 HMY Helga opened fire at Bolands Mill at 20:15 hitting the upper floors and damaging them

Wednesday 26th April 1916 between 08:30 and 12:00 HMY Helga fired on Liberty Hall. The building was destroyed and the guns of HMY Helga were turned on targets in Sackville Street. I have no reason to believe that RTE or their researchers lied in formulating their summary of events.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:36 AM

"Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it."

Your quote Terribombast, it would seem that you too believe the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:45 AM

Nice bit of selective cut-n-paste there Raggy - Now look at all of it:

never mind Raggy another own goal based on ignorance. As far as gunnery goes you know nothing, and even when you supply the link you completely fail to understand what it very clearly stated. Just for you I will take you through it. It is no surprise to me at all that no-one was killed and that HMY Helga even although tied up alongside the wall was not hit.

Go back and read what I said was required to obtain a "Firing Solution". Then piece together how many elements the gunners firing did not have.

Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it."

Now where in any of that do I state that I believe that it actually happened?

Also please refrain from sidestepping MY questions - Tell us how it would be possible for your volunteer to see what he said he had seen.

As to fires being started by British Artillery fire Raggy. Looting started on Sackville Street at 15:30 on Monday 24th April 1916, the fires were started by looters in Sackville Street around 20:30 that night - OK then Raggy when did the British bring up their first piece of artillery? About a day later wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 06:01 AM

I think the proof of the pudding is YOUR statement:

"Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from ............"

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 11:36 AM

Pray tell Raggy what proof? The statement you quote proves nothing. I stand by what I said. I was responding to your idiotic:

"Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away."

Hardly a few hundreds (sic) yards away, and I was explaining to you why under the circumstances fancifully imagined by your "volunteer" that neither gun crew could possibly hit the other - no firing solution. There was no indiscriminate fire Rags if there had been then a damn sight more than 260 civilians would have been killed. No heavy artillery Jom because if there had been then a damn sight more than 485 people would have been killed. No incendiary rounds as none existed in the whole of Ireland in April 1916. No blue-on-blue friendly fire incident as described by Raggy's volunteer.

Now then Rags tell us how it would be possible for a man under fire to witness what he said he witnessed? If you cannot do that then that puts his whole story into question doesn't it?

Jom's gone awfully quiet of the poppies and the obscene profits hasn't he? Mind you he is not alone. Fergie has remained silent since he was asked to tell us when and where Joe Offer asked him to pen his tuppence worth and Thompson doesn't seem to be able to tell us where he got his wildly exaggerated figures from (30,000 British troops whereas the actual number deployed to Ireland was 15,000 + 1,000 policemen of the RIC in Dublin at the time. At the height of the fighting the 1250 volunteers were engaged by 4,000 British troops) and where the 1.2 million Arabs came from who fought for the British Army in the First World War - 500,000 of them getting killed would you credit it - I certainly don't but then I don't just spout about being sceptical - I actually check-out statements made by others.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 11:46 AM

Hmm. Your "checking" can get a little sloppy at times, as I demonstrated at 04.50 am yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 12:26 PM

Hilarious Shaw - Is that really the best you can come up with?? The instance that caused you to start dancing on the head of a pin was one where - if you had read the previous posts - it was blindingly obvious the pint that Keith A was making.

Better get onto Jim Carroll for going on about the Black & Tans terrorising Ireland for two years - in actual fact is was less than 15 months - What a crime eh? As stated previously you want go get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 01:26 PM

Any observations on the Rising Steve?
Nothing from you so far.

If you only come here to foment off topic arguments by making inflammatory and false accusations against anyone who disagrees with your fellow lefties, you are just trolling.

Please post about the rising and not about contributors.
(Likewise Greg and DTG)

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 01:57 PM

Well, Keith, I didn't know you were a moderator now! Inflammatory, no. I have stated only facts. False, never. Anyone can view that thread and see exactly what you did. You made a grossly inaccurate characterisation of what your source said (yes, yes, you quoted it in full, then you later went on to put words into his mouth that he neither said nor meant - when are you actually going to come clean, Keith? Do you actually want people to trust what you say or not?) and you refused to back down. It's important, Keith, in any context at all in which you're being taken to task because it shows that you are unreliable in the extreme. Perhaps you were once a Sun reporter. It's what they do all the time. As for the rising, I've already said that those events informed Irish history from then right to this day, a point disputed here by some whose agenda is firmly anti-Irish republican. And I'm certainly not getting into squabbles about who fired what at whom and from where. I've been to Dublin, seen the bullet holes and sated my fired-up curiosity. That's as much as I care to share with you two ill-tempered fellows, but it's on-topic, no?

If you want to make a "blindingly obvious" point, Teribus, it's best to make it blindingly accurately, not blindly inaccurately. You KNOW that Keith misquoted but wouldn't correct himself, don't you? Yes, of course you do. Unfortunately, you define yourself by those who you choose to close ranks with. I wouldn't mind betting you get road rage too.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 02:05 PM

Hmmmmmmm I don't think I've mentioned a VOLUNTEER witnessing anything. That's a figment of YOUR imagination.

Just as a point of information Bolands Mill is about 700 metres from the river. I could possibly stroll that, even with my aged impediments, in less than 15 minutes.

If as is stated in the article the "engagement" took over an hour I could have been there and back twice.


I do hope you're not going to go follow the inane path of the professor and attempt to prove the unprovable. We know where that dead end stops.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM

Ah! One more thing. If I was a young man I could probably clear that distance in about 3 minutes (or less)

Not that I'd want to with British troops using sophisticated techniques of aim, target, correct or whatever it was you stated.

No way I might get hit !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 03:14 PM

"Better get onto Jim Carroll for going on about the Black & Tans terrorising Ireland for two years - in actual fact is was less than 15 months - What a crime eh?"

Well that's about as bad as your sixteen months turning into two years when it came to the timing of Keith's Big Fib! A statement that, like all the others, you never failed to "check-out!" And you think I'm hilarious. Hey, do you think we could do a Morecambe and Wise double act?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 04:42 AM

The incident which was described in the link you provided and which you were so happy about is:

1: Not verified

2: For a number of logical and physical reasons totally unbelievable

If you wish to believe fairy stories - fill your boots - only please do not expect others to be so gullible and don't react so childishly when your dearly held myths are challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 04:51 AM

Nothing from you either, Keith. You just quote other peoples work

Not true at all Dave.
I expressed my views in my first post, but Jim rubbished them so I backed them with the findings of historians.

Have you expressed any views on the rising at all?
Do you have any?
You, Steve and Greg only come to the thread to stir up off-topic arguments.
Why do you do that? It is trolling.
Please stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 05:01 AM

I know it's hard when your heroes are shown to be men of straw. This is just another example of the ineptitude (at times) of the British Military machine. You will just have to learn, like the rest of us, to live with it.





Doesn't stop a few of us from having a giggle though.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 06:29 AM

I expressed my views in my first post, but Jim rubbished them so I backed them with the findings of historians.

Here are your first two posts on the thread, Keith.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:13 AM

This BBC TV programme also questions the idea that Home Rule was advanced at all by those acts of violence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075f1f2

Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:15 AM

"In 1916, at the height of WW1, armed insurgents rose up against the British in Dublin, the empire's second city. Using secret documents, cabinet papers, intelligence reports, military orders, diaries and letters, Michael Portillo pieces together the story of this uprising from the British point of view.

Was Dublin just another battle at a time of war where military justice was immediate and brutal or, by their actions, did the British men who wrote these documents hasten the end of an empire? Did an unlikely band of Irish rebels, led by playwrights and poets, do more to advance the cause of Irish freedom in five days than nationalist politicians had done in the previous 50 years, or did they damage the cause and condemn the island to a history of violence? Michael looks for the answers. This is the story of Ireland's Easter Rising as told by British politicians, soldiers, spies and bureaucrats."

So, a link to a program by Michael Portillo and a write up of that program with nary an opinion between them! Not indulging in those little pastry products stuffed with pig meat again are we Keith? Or is it, as I suspect, a new meaning of either views or first post that no one but you has considered yet? As to

Have you expressed any views on the rising at all?

No, have you? and

Do you have any?

Yes, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 08:21 AM

Even harder Raggy when your heroes are shown to be liars and tellers of tall and improbable tales upon which their "fame" is based. As to ineptitude Liberty Hall abandoned within four hours, De Valera hunkered down and forced to play no real part in the events of the week while he put the lives of innocent civilians at risk in order to save his little band, the "Rising" brought to nought in under a week with less than 500 people killed. I think that showed remarkable restraint considering that this battle that basically raw recruits straight out of training took part in was fought in the centre of a city with a population of about 310,000. But never mind Raggy never let facts get in the way of your fairy tales, but everytime those fairy tales and myths that you love so dearly are trotted out I will be there to knock them flat, couldn't care less about making any attempt to convince you or your pals of anything as you are blessed with a monstrously closed mind, but others reading it will be a damned sight better informed.

Oh by the way I do not think you would be allowed just to wander where you please in the middle of a battle so my question still stands how could your volunteer witness what he said he witnessed and how could he observe fall of shot from two different guns firing in opposite directions. Bolands Mill is set back from the Liffey isn't it Raggy? De Valera put a flag up on a near by tower to mislead and misdirect fire from the Helga away from his men and his position which would mean that from the Liffy Helga's gun would firing in what direction? For the fall of shot from Helga to be mistaken for rebel fire where would the Sherwood Foresters have to have been. You see Raggy old son you simply cannot be in two places at the same time and there simply was no vantage point in the area from which you could witness the guns or fall of shot as described in the link you provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 08:38 AM

Ah you mean people wouldn't be allowed to wander round, that's possibly why YOU mentioned:

"As to a consensus Rags who was it the citizens of Dublin were cheering as they hauled that gun through the streets? When food supplies started to run low throughout the city who was it that opened the warehouses and distributed food to where it was needed? Give you a hint it certainly was not Pearse, Connolly & Co."

Or perhaps it was why you mentioned:

"Dubliners cheered the British troops dragging the 1 pounder gun landed from the Helga into position to fire on the rebels"

The SAME gun that later fired in the direction of "rebel" fire.

Your "facts" don't add up do they.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 10:30 AM

Thanks Dave.
I should have said my fourth post, first day. Sorry.

"Home rule had already been agreed.
It was not brought forward by one day.
The killing was all for nothing. There could have been a peaceful transition and no civil war.
The fools, the fools."

I have never denied that my views on history are informed by reading history.
That is what normal, intelligent people do.
(But not you apparently!)

They are still my views.
Where do you get your views on historical events Dave?
Are they just whims?

Steve, I can not remember you expressing a view on the rising.
Will you remind us?
Was it just one post out of all your others not about the rising at all, but just stirring up off-topic arguments with anyone who disagrees with your fellow lefties.

That still makes you a troll, and you are still trying to restart an off-topic argument.
Please stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 11:04 AM

It's important that readers of this thread know that you are not reliable. And no, I'm not doing your homework for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 11:17 AM

"Your "facts" don't add up do they."

Not to you they don't Raggy, but they would to others who bothered to read about the Easter Rising. Tell me again Raggy the Volunteers under Connolly and Pearse, they did assemble in the centre of Dublin and they did occupy buildings didn't they? They read their proclamation and then sat back and waited. I take it that the groups of men assigned to various positions were ordered to remain at their posts just in case those nasty Brits came along. And that gets us onto the other participants those Nasty Brits who having had to be rushed into Dublin would be on the move and would be free to move about as required in order to attack the more or less static volunteers occupying buildings. So with regard to your last post I have not got the foggiest clue about the point you are trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 12:47 PM

Another fact relating to the Joemulvey link you supplied Raggy - your link states that this supposed "artillery duel" took place on Thursday 27th April 1916, and was initiated because Helga fired on Bolands Mill whereupon De Valera raised a Green Flag on an adjacent Tower to misdirect fire from the Helga. Unfortunately Raggy the only time the Helga fired on Bolands Mill was at 20:15 on the evening of the 25th April, now does that register? She did not fire at all on the 27th and after hitting Bolands Mill on the 25th she did not fire on Bolands Mill again. The Sherwood Foresters with the 1 pound hand served and aimed gun from the Helga in 12 shots managed to hit the flagpole at a range of 400 metres - now what diameter was that flag pole Raggy? Bloody small target at 400 metres eh? Especially for a gun on a temporary lash-up of a mounting that is being aimed and fired by someone holding it.

The story told in the link you provided is utter codswallop.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 12:58 PM

It was actually 24 April to 30 April when Thomas MacDonagh stood down his garrison and the other garrisons under him.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 01:32 PM

See, Steve, I got him to admit a mistake. You owe me £5 ;-) Your turn now:-D

Where do you get your views on historical events Dave?
Are they just whims?

No, they are not. If by historic events you mean pointless slaughter of innocent people then I believe it is always wrong. People can argue over who started it and whether it was justified until they are blue in the face and it will not bring anyone back. My view is that unless people learn from past mistakes they will continue making them and that blame allocation will not help with that.

I also believe, as a fellow expert on historic events of yours, Hilo, said that "Not everyone is hoodwinked by glossy books in a shop."

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 01:32 PM

Keith says:

Have you expressed any views on the rising at all?
Do you have any?
You, Steve and Greg only come to the thread to stir up off-topic arguments.
Why do you do that? It is trolling.
Please stop.

He's right. Such posts and the name-calling serve only to carry on the nastiness that has driven so many people away from our BS section, and that made it impossible to leave this thread in the music section. These posts add nothing at all but animosity to the discussion. They convey no information.

I suppose, though, that such animosity may well be a good demonstration of the spirit of the Easter Rising. The "rebels" were so sure of the rightness of their cause, that they saw no purpose in continuing a respectful conversation with the British. The British, at this point, were more than willing to accommodate the wishes of those who demanded independence for Ireland, but the "rebels" believed that only bloodshed would prove the righteousness of their cause.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 01:42 PM

Ah Thompson does that mean that V-J Day is also wrong by years to take into account the surrender of the last of the "hold-outs". The Rising as such was over once Pearse and Connolly formally surrendered unconditionally to Brigadier-General Lowe on the 29th April 1916.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 02:04 PM

Straw ............ clutch ........... straw ........ Once again Cherriblossom you are trying to divert the conversation away the main thrust.

Stick to the point.

One British gun fired on another British gun, the second British gun having been "borrowed" from the ship of the first.

Brill !!!

PS Before you deny this, you have gone along with this scenario for some little time before you worked out it didn't match up to your preconceived ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 02:24 PM


One British gun fired on another British gun, the second British gun having been "borrowed" from the ship of the first.

No it did not.
The one pounder was at street level with several big building between it and Helga.
Helga could not see it and could not fire on it because of all the buildings in the way.

Similarly, the one pounder shells fired at a high angle at the flag pole, would land about 2 miles beyond the Liffey.
Helga dd not report coming under fire or returning fire.
It never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 02:34 PM

Steve, I have found your contribution the the discussion of the Rising.

"The rights and wrongs of the 1916 events are, well, not exactly irrelevant, but they happened and they are water under the bridge. "

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 02:57 PM

Keithy baby ............ where did the 1lb gun come from ??

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM

Question: You state categorically that the Helga did not report incoming fire.

Where do you get that information from. IF you have information that STATES that please share it with us, because I for one don't believe you have THAT specific information YOU are making that up.

As for the Helga returning fire even your mate accepts that DID happen. That is logged. That is FACT.

Now, Who is lying Terribus or YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 04:15 PM

the Easter Rising. The "rebels" were so sure of the rightness of their cause, that they saw no purpose in continuing a respectful conversation with the British.

Joe, you're just displaying woeful ignorance of the entire situation that existed between England & Ireland ranging over 400 years.

I'm surprised at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 05:10 PM

Greg, there's no question about the righteousness of the cause - Great Britain occupied Ireland for 400 years. But I think that very same righteousness blinded the rebels, and drove them to fight in this uprising when there was no longer need for violence - Great Britain had agreed to Home Rule two years earlier.

Now, it's also true that the execution of the Easter Rising participants was a totally unnecessary act on the part of the British. It appears to me that it was those executions that turned the tide of public opinion to favor Home Rule. It may have hastened the process of Home Rule, but I wonder if it also inspired the partition of Ireland.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 05:32 PM

Joe, I am English, but i think the rebels had no choice but to use violence.
Joe, my great grandfather was chancellor of the exchequer in Disraeli's government, Sir Michael Hicks Beach, one of the pillars of the UK establishment, the sort of people who forced Ireland into poverty.
imo, the Irish had no choice

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 06:17 PM

Hi, Dick -Although I'm a pacifist and would prefer alternatives, I have no logical question about the need for the Irish rebels to use violence - earlier in their struggle. But what good did it do them to use violence and get themselves executed in April 1916, 2 years after the Home Rule bill was passed by Parliament? That's a question that hasn't been answered to my satisfaction. Maybe there was good reason - but I don't understand it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 03:46 AM

Dick,
the rebels had no choice but to use violence.

The choice was a peaceful transition as guaranteed by the 1914 Act.
That was the wish of the people.

Dave,
slaughter of innocent people then I believe it is always wrong.

Good for you Dave, but so does everyone else.
Surely you will condemn a gang of people armed by a foreign enemy, against the will of the people in a democratic state, starting an insurrection by murdering an unarmed policeman and culminating in the death of hundreds, mostly civilians, and leading to a bloody civil war and thousands more deaths.