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BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:50 PM I hate to agree with Shaw, but If you want the thread to stay on track, we can't read you mind. Tell us what you want. I'll tell you something else when I was a kid on the playground, I dreamed of being ignored. So stop throwing a tantrum because you are not getting something you have not clearly asked for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: gnu Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:01 PM Yeah... it stuck to the point that long because I made it clear from the OP that assholes with poor manners should fuck off. Which begs the point... Now... I just got another PM from a gentleman (one of the finest I have met herein). Here is my response to him when he said he would post no more to the crap which has sullied this thread... Don't "abide by my wishes"... do unto othe as you would have them do unto you. Suggest another thread... one of the past ones or a new one. It really is that simple to me. Thanks, buddy. Your PM means a lot to me. Yer ona a the good guys. ****************************************************************** Steve... not so much. gnightgnu... unless I get a bunch more PMs and emails... even then, at this point, I think I made my pointssss. I really don't think any newcomers will want to post thier intimate thoughts in a forum where people are so rude no matter what I might add in future. Mqatter of fact, Steve just made my main point for me, again. Thanks, buddy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Mar 13 - 12:27 AM Gnu, Its an open forum with rules. Steve is not breaking the rules. Whatever he does or says you have to roll with it. Whenever the topic goes near religion he says whatever he can to try to anger people. If you want to get even, don't get angry. If you want to really really screw with him pretend that he is making sense. His head will get so big he'll think he is floating above us all like an angel. Then he will say all of these incredibly arrogant, amusing things. Its all good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:12 AM 'and you can bloody shut up when you're told, Michael!' .,,.,. Shan't! Stamp! Scweem! Sulk! And you said bloody and I'm telling teacher of you so there! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM Whenever the topic goes near religion he says whatever he can to try to anger people. I say exactly what I think about religion, that's all. I must have said it a dozen times: if a certain category of believers are so happy in their skins with their certainties, they would shrug off those atheists who haven't got the manners to keep conveniently silent. There are certain aspects of our religious heritage that I admire - architecture, art, music, community spirit and more - and I have engaged, and will engage, constructively with anyone who wishes to discuss them. There are even some aspects of belief that I respect (more of a struggle, but I try). Why don't you just try to avoid the perfect fit with the stereotype of the frightened Christian who sees every atheist as a mortal threat and who deserves no more than a session with your attack-dogs? If you want to really really screw with him pretend that he is making sense. Perhaps later, darling. One must hasten to buy the fish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:15 AM Calm down, Michael. I've already bought the teacher off with a 99p Cadbury's mini-egg Easter egg from Morrisons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:15 AM Calm down, Michael. I've already bought the teacher off with a 99p Cadbury's mini-egg Easter egg from Morrisons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM I have no idea why that posted twice. Apologies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Mar 13 - 10:42 AM I haven't read all the posts here, so forgive me if I'm merely repeating what others have already said. I accept that there may be a heaven and a hell, although it's obvious they must exist on a different plane as we now know so much about the physical Universe and its limits. What has always troubled me is how one qualifies for entry into heaven. Having been an academic all my life, accustomed to exams and qualifications, it appears one must be 'judged' as fit, by God. (Rather like the Attestation of Fitness I has to gain for entry to Edinburgh Uni!) Now, having studied Moral Philosophy as an extra subject there, I became totally sceptical of the concepts of 'praise', 'blame' 'punishment' and 'reward'. Should a person be rewarded with entry to heaven simply because they've been 'good'? Maybe they had a genetically-determined personality which happily led them to behave well? Maybe they had a stable and good home with all the attendant advantages? Did a 'bad' chap draw the short straw genetically, a sort of closet psychopath? Was he/she abused as a child and turned into a consummate sinner? Does free will really exist? Most prisoners (I've worked with many of them) have had horrendous starts in life and a large proportion are mentally ill too. Why should they go to Hell because of that? Does God 'take into consideration' the disadvantages/lucky breaks before His judgement is made? And what, pray, is the Pass Rate? What are the odds that I'll get in? Seen from this angle, the whole thing becomes ridiculous. I just hope I can 're-sit'the entry exam, as I'll surely fail! . |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Mar 13 - 11:27 AM Eliza, from what I understand, the person with all the blessing is often less likely to receive the blessings. I always go back to this passage. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." First let me say that I am not sure whether "kingdom of God." is the physical place that many people imagine Heaven to be. From my experience it is a State of mind and inner peace that I have felt from time to time and that is enough to motivate me. In the New Testament the only thing required to enter the "kingdom of God." Is to accept Jesus as your personal savior. Personal experience tells me that it is much much easier to do so once we have hit rock bottom than when we are comfortable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:29 PM Jack, your interesting answer gives rise to yet more questions. If rich persons are so unlikely to reach heaven, then the vast majority of folk in the West won't make it. We are fabulously rich in comparison to those in dire poverty in the Third World. And if heaven is a state of mind, what happens when the mind (ie the brain) dies? Does 'consciousness' live on somehow? Also, I have to say my pupils in primary school used to find the idea of 'adoring God' endlessly up there terrifically boring! I'm a churchgoer and try to be a good Christian, but sometimes even I can't get my head round a lot of this! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:55 PM "If rich persons are so unlikely to reach heaven, then the vast majority of folk in the West won't make it." Yes, that is the way that I think it is. Most people in Western society are like the camel. They are not on a path to the kingdom. Jesus' teachings about our behavior. Loving your neighbour is very hard, especially when you are "fighting" for a promotion or trying to close a sale. There are American Churches that say that all you have to do is come to their church, pay your tithes and pray and Jesus will reward you with money. I believe that is heresy. "And if heaven is a state of mind, what happens when the mind (ie the brain) dies? Does 'consciousness' live on somehow?" I really don't know. I don't know what The Bible means by "everlasting life." I find it hard to believe that it has anything to do with wings and harps and everyone having a literal mansion on a literal cloud. If it is so, for my happiness, it had better come with a staff that I won't feel guilty about serving me. ;-) I think I empathize with your students. I have yet to find a description of heaven enticing enough to motivate me. When I was their age, I wondered if was was described to me is all that there was to it. (Sorry about the clumsiness, Though I remember those thoughts and feelings, they are very difficult to put into adult words.) On the other hand, the peace of mind, the state of grace implied in Jesus' teachings is very very compelling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:56 PM ""NO SHIT! And I got TOTALLY shit upon for going apeshit earlier when my second thread was about to be hijacked after the first similar thread was hijacked and fucked over twice... in succession... in a few days!!!! Don left this discussion and even my PMs can't get him to return. "" DAMN RIGHT I LEFT! Two points. 1. The reason for my leaving after having done no more than respond politely to questions directly addressed to me, was that you chose me to VERY PUBLICLY SHIT ON from a great height, and rather than respond in a similar manner I left. 2. If somebody has upset me publicly, I do not regard a private message as an appropriate way in which to handle what should be an apology as public as the attack. I have learned one thing, and that is to stay away from your threads. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Mar 13 - 03:56 PM I agree, Jack. Despite the conflict of mind and the doubts, and difficulties in imagining the Hereafter, I still try to keep plodding on towards my God, doing what Jesus advised, (which after all is very simple, as others have said:- Love God and Love your neighbour) and just hoping that God accepts my feeble efforts and takes me to Himself at the end. It's all any of us can do really. As they say at the end of a TV episode: "All will be revealed..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM Yes Eliza, I think that is the consensus on this thread. Expressed in many different ways. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM I am happy to love my neighbour. I can find, however, no necessity, in order to do so, for any belief in anything remotely resembling any concept which could reasonably be defined by the noun, common or proper, of god, or God. I am moreover confident that if there were such a thing as a God then there would be no such things, to take only minor examples, as toothache or the perpetual inconvenient necessity to piss and shit. "Intelligent Design" is a coinage some well-meaning fudgers have tried to make catch on as a sort of disinfecting of the absurdity of the concept. "Unintelligent Design" is what I should call it. Thank Unintelligent Design that I have never been in any danger of having to experience that oh-so-marvellously designed process, childbirth {except my own trauma, of course}! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:13 PM hi eliza.you are quite right to surmise that a "pass rate" would be hard to determine.fact is the pass rate is 100% non sinful.only Jesus attained that measure.he gave his life for us,the sinless on behalf of the sinful that all who repent and believe are accounted righteous and accepted by God.as Jesus said -john 14 v 6 "i am the way,the truth,and the life,no man comes to the Father but by me" perhaps you know JOHN 3 V 16 ,if not its well worth looking at this wonderful invitation. blessings pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:19 PM "I am happy to love my neighbour." No doubt you are. But do you do it as a daily practice? Are there limits to what you would do for this neighbour for the sake of this "love?" Yeah me too :-) and I am trying to be a good Christian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:21 PM "i am the way,the truth,and the life,no man comes to the Father but by me" How do you screw up a quote? Have you taken some sort of vow of grammatical ignorance? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:30 PM Like most people, I'm afraid I have limits on what I'd do for a 'neighbour'. I'd steal food if I were starving and I'm often jealous of my 'neighbour's' goods. I try to be kind, but I'd never give anyone ALL my worldly goods, no way! So I doubt that I measure up too well for entry to The Realms. In my prayers I often grin ruefully at God and tell Him I don't get much of what I read in the Bible. My husband, a Muslim, is a far better person than I'll ever be. It's all a muddle. Anyone who reckons they understand it all is kidding themselves! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: gnu Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:33 PM Got two PMs and an email so I had to check in. Glad I did. First... Don???? Can you clarify that last post with specifics? JtS... ""I am happy to love my neighbour." No doubt you are. But do you do it as a daily practice? Are there limits to what you would do for this neighbour for the sake of this "love?"" Indeed I DO! I don't kill his yappy little dog. I don't even call the bylaw enforcement dept to report the barking. But, it IS March. We'll see how much I love him and the little yapper come "window open"... that is, I'll see where my limits are when he yapping wakes me up at 5:30AM and continues until I rise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:04 PM I haven't read all the posts here, so forgive me if I'm merely repeating what others have already said. I accept that there may be a heaven and a hell, although it's obvious they must exist on a different plane as we now know so much about the physical Universe and its limits. What has always troubled me is how one qualifies for entry into heaven. Having been an academic all my life, accustomed to exams and qualifications, it appears one must be 'judged' as fit, by God. (Rather like the Attestation of Fitness I has to gain for entry to Edinburgh Uni!) Now, having studied Moral Philosophy as an extra subject there, I became totally sceptical of the concepts of 'praise', 'blame' 'punishment' and 'reward'. Should a person be rewarded with entry to heaven simply because they've been 'good'? Maybe they had a genetically-determined personality which happily led them to behave well? Maybe they had a stable and good home with all the attendant advantages? Did a 'bad' chap draw the short straw genetically, a sort of closet psychopath? Was he/she abused as a child and turned into a consummate sinner? Does free will really exist? Most prisoners (I've worked with many of them) have had horrendous starts in life and a large proportion are mentally ill too. Why should they go to Hell because of that? Does God 'take into consideration' the disadvantages/lucky breaks before His judgement is made? And what, pray, is the Pass Rate? What are the odds that I'll get in? Seen from this angle, the whole thing becomes ridiculous. I just hope I can 're-sit'the entry exam, as I'll surely fail! What an excellent, questioning post. What a pity that far more believers than you, fed for so long the tale of their all-seeing, all-mercifiul God, are so willing to accept without demur what comes from the pulpit instead of asking awkward questions. Of all the beings that ever existed, God is surely yer man for answering awkward questions. But he doesn't, does he. He leaves his acolytes in a state of permanent quandary. The spin put on that is that he "moves in mysterious ways". You must have a leap of faith (and, bejaysus, how hard it is to leap back!). I could suggest even more awkward questions that you could put to your Almighty. Why did he callously let evolution take place? Evolution involves the death of 99%+ of offspring, selection by disease, famine, conflict and vicious, uncaring competition. If you are here at all you are one of the lucky 0.000001% of organisms that ever tried their hand. Yet you too will end your life in fear, misery and death. Even now you're scared of dying! Your God, being all powerful, did not need to play his hand that way at all. But he did. The only paltry excuse I've heard for this tyrant is that he cast us all out because a woman bit into one of his apples! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM Despite the conflict of mind and the doubts, and difficulties in imagining the Hereafter, I still try to keep plodding on towards my God, doing what Jesus advised, (which after all is very simple, as others have said:- Love God and Love your neighbour) and just hoping that God accepts my feeble efforts and takes me to Himself at the end. It's all any of us can do really. As they say at the end of a TV episode: "All will be revealed..." Well I also do what Jesus advised, though a good deal of it I might have been doing whether Jesus had advised it or not (I happen to be one of those wacky atheists who are convinced that Jesus was the real thing and said some very sensible things. He is also alleged to have said certain things that I ascribe to the fanciful imaginations of some of his more tendentious followers, writing mostly long after he died, and it isn't always easy to separate the two). All will be revealed? Ask the bugger why he can't reveal a bit more right now! He'd get a damn sight more people on board if he did! He's an illogical fellow, this God! Oops, sorry...forgot about those "mysterious ways"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:23 PM hi eliza.you are quite right to surmise that a "pass rate" would be hard to determine.fact is the pass rate is 100% non sinful.only Jesus attained that measure.he gave his life for us,the sinless on behalf of the sinful that all who repent and believe are accounted righteous and accepted by God.as Jesus said -john 14 v 6 "i am the way,the truth,and the life,no man comes to the Father but by me" Glory alleluia. Why get involved in muscular debate when you can shut yer eyes, join yer hands and raise yer mush to heaven! Deo Grassy Arse! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:27 PM It's a good thing you don't believe in God Steve Shaw. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:42 PM But that is simply not true, Jacko. I don't not believe in God. Bejaysus, I've explained this so many times. God is your concept, not mine. If you and your fellow-God-travellers weren't here, I wouldn't not believe in God. The only sense in which you can say I don't believe in God is that I don't agree with whatever notion you are proposing. I can't say I don't believe in God for two reasons. First, if I say it, it immediately puts me into believer territory. Second, I don't know whether there's a God or not, do I, so it would be illogical to say I "don't believe in him". All I can say is, going from all the evidence I can glean (and, try as I might to be accommodating, I have to reject on rational grounds old stories, ancient texts scribbled in the desert, tradition, hearsay, witness and the edicts of holy men), the existence of God is a possibility that is vanishingly small. Believe it or not. Hope this helps. Again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:16 AM "Jacko?" You complain that I don't use your name the way you want and start your post "Jacko?" OK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:17 AM I think that you protest a little too much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:41 AM Well, he [we] wouldn't Jack, if you lot didn't go on & on postulating arguments, and concepts, and 'beings', that seem to us so pretty well self-evidently absurd. OK, maybe, just maybe, they are not absurd, but right after all. Well then, he and I are going to look pretty silly some day, aren't we, and you will all look down from your heavenly home and Maybe maybe maybe maybe Oh, the hell with it [joke: geddit?]. It is, too, absurd! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:27 AM I don't "protest", Jacko. I put you straight on things. Me and Michael. Listen and learn! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 13 - 08:35 AM No one with a genuinely spiritual outlook laughs at anyone else's torment, M, nor wishes eternal torment on anyone. We're all in this together, and we should wish the best for one another...if we want to become truly human, and that's what spiritual work is actually about...it's about becoming truly human, which is to become a loving and forgiving person. It's about fulfilling our real human potential and destiny which is brotherhood/sisterhood, rather than engaging in bloody competition and destruction of one another to the detriment of all of us. **** Steve, If you want to be respected, then respect other people as you would wish they respected you, and that includes not belittling them in small, petty ways, nasty little putdowns, like repeatedly calling somename whose name is Jack, "Jacko". (The smirk on your face...or at least in your mind...is quite evident and palpable when you say it.) The nickname Jacko is something a lot of people habitually called Michael Jackson, and they didn't do it because they liked him. They were making fun of him and putting him down every time they did it. Steve, I started encountering bullies from the moment I entered Grade 1 in primary school, and I know how they behave. They often don't call a person they're picking on by his real name, because they want to reduce his status and hurt him and make him "small"...it makes them feel in control, and makes them feel more powerful, and it pleases their sadistic desire to dominate and ridicule their target...so they call him by some scornful nickname. Like "Jacko". Or "Fatso". Or "Four Eyes". The names change, but the intention to hurt the other person is clearly there. Your various rational arguments are certainly worthy of fair consideration in themselves, but your cavalier attitude toward the people you disagree with discredits your arguments and makes them hardly worth listening to. In short, you make it plain that you think anyone who doesn't see it your way is a dummy...simply because they don't agree with you about something. This is no way to relate to other people, Steve, and in real life (not in this safe little long distance environment of torturing and harassing other people through hostile keystrokes) it leads to a degree of risk, as we all know. So in real life...face to face...we usually restrain our meaner impulses. We ought best to restrain them here as well. You will reap exactly what you sew in life, Steve. It just takes awhile to come to fruition, that's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM Thank you for the lecture. I have no idea, in this world of pseudonyms, what Jack The Sailor's real name is, except that that is clearly not the whole truth of it (well, I concede that "the" can be part of one's name, as in The Edge: I recall Jonathan Ross asking him if it was OK to call him The). The thing is, Little Hawk, Jack and I go back a fair distance on this board and whenever he has chosen to engage with what I say his remarks have typically been filled with his barbs (which I'm fairly adept at firing back, of course). As you can easily glean from this thread he is disrespectful of my stance on religion and is very quick with the sarcasm. He tends to talk about me as if I'm not here and he quite unnecessarily uses my surname (the trait of the school bully, n'est-ce pas?) As for my cavalier attitude to those I don't agree with, ask Ebbie, Eliza or Joe whether I show disrespect to them for their beliefs. In fact, my posts on this topic are thought through and carefully constructed on the whole, which is more than may be said for some of, for example, Jack's or pete's. Ridiculous posts kind of deserve something back other than indulgence, I suspect. I certainly expect to get it in the neck for mine. C'est la vie. Life's rich tapestry and all that. Well, that's me anyway. Perhaps you would see fit to remonstrate with your good friend on whom you spend so much effort indulging. Or just quit trying to be the board policeman. There, a little barb for you too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Mar 13 - 08:57 AM It's reap what you sow, by the way. Other spellings simply have me in stitches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Ebbie Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM "...what you sow, by the way. Other spellings simply have me in stitches." :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM 'No one with a genuinely spiritual outlook laughs at anyone else's torment, M, nor wishes eternal torment on anyone' .,,. How consolatory, Little Hawk. But there may, I fear, be an element of Spiritual Pride in your 'No one'. You mean you, personally, & others of your faith who share this particular view, do not do so. But would you have the gall to deny that such concepts as Salvation [conceived by some, either literally or symbolically, as perpetual entertainment in a delightful environment by golden harps & heavenly choirs] & Damnation [seen as perpetual imprisonment in conditions of extreme unpleasantness and permanent subjection to various disagreeable experiences] have ranked large in the conceptions of various theologies? Look at Augustine, say; at Calvin with his doctrine of 'Predestination, --- in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God. John Calvin interpreted biblical predestination to mean that God willed eternal damnation for some people and salvation for others.' wiki; or read the sermon in James Joyce's Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man, recollected from the author's Dublin youth... ...and then justify your 'No one' -- if you can. I bet you there are still, to this day, plenty in the Deep South or Dublin or Lutheran Scandinavia who will look forward with great glee to the prospect of watching the likes of Steve & me copping a nice well-deserved dose of damnation and eternal torment. And I bet you even know some. You might say they are showing themselves to be not true believers, or whatever; but you must see that that would be a question-begging cop-out!. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM LH, Please do me a favor and do not defend me to Shaw. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:16 PM Hello Sailor! He doesn't like that one either Steve. Suffice to say that as ever, those with an imaginary friend make the mistake that rational people have a stance, as in not believing in God. Well, as the concept is the invention of humans, it isn't a matter of believing or not believing, there is nothing to believe. If it is your comfort blanket or heritage, then fine. Get on with it, but don't get all upset when the grown ups are talking.. I no more believe in God as I believe that a particular style of American football is the best way to win. You can't say that just because I don't agree with that style that therefore I don't believe in it, as the reason is I don't agree with it is that it is a non debate to those of us who don't know or understand the sport. Same with God. Just because as a child I was told by teachers to put my hands together etc, doesn't mean I have a view as a rational adult. Religion can be very comforting for people, but sadly it can be useful too. Hence the more people who treat it as an irrelevance, the more society can get on with improving without bigoted boundaries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:41 PM MtheGM, I think that LH means that if you find glee in others' torment you are not genuinely "spiritual." Certainly if he is referring to Christianity as I see it, I agree with the statement. I can't reconcile "Love thy neighbor as thyself" with expressing glee at my neighbor's torment. On a related note, I quite like you and the lively discussions we have had. I like Mr. Shaw as well. I assume that he wants the treatment I give him (In fact he seems to very much enjoy it.) because that is the way he treats me. Let me put it this way. I respect him a lot more than I respect his expressed opinions and tactics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:56 PM So the "rational adults" call people names when they disagree? :-D BTW, I don't mind being called "Sailor." I commented about you doing so because of the rationality of the tactic. Likewise "Jacko" is not offensive. But it is Mr. Shaw's intent to offend. That is why I rarely reply to to his "rational adult" goads. I think this line of discussion is way off topic. I am done with it. Cheers, Jacko The Sailor |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:07 PM Thank you, Jack. Fully reciprocated. You are one of those with whom one can discuss without heat even when not necessarily in agreement. I take your point re LH;, but that appeal to the 'spiritual' still begs the question, IMO. I am sure that such sects as the followers of Jim Jones, say, or some of the more extreme adherents of the Southern Baptist Church, would regard themselves as thoroughly 'spiritual' ~~ would probably, indeed, regard no-one else as entitled to consider themselves so; so that LH taking his stand on an appeal to 'spirituality' won't quite do it for me as a denial or refutation of the idea that anyone could take a self-righteous pleasure in the prospect of ultimate postmortem suffering for the unrighteous ~~ like Steve & me, say! Regards ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:18 PM But it is Mr. Shaw's intent to offend. Not so. To challenge, to rib, to goad, to provoke. And to get just the same back. That's what's up, Jack. You're far too quick to inflate ordinary disagreement into the firing of barbs, and I'm too weak to resist. Don't make me quote the examples in this thread, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:27 PM MtheGM, I'm not sure what you are saying. I agree that joy at the suffering of others is a bad thing. I concede that joy at eternal damnation proportionately is worse. I concede that there probably are people who consider themselves to be Christian who might take joy in your damnation. Certainly there are those that seem to feel that way about The President and Muslims, and Liberals. But the vast majority don't feel that way. And as I said before, that does not square with Jesus' teaching of "Love thy Neighbor as Thyself." I don't understand how people can call themselves Christian and disobey Christ so blatantly. But there are millions of people who do. Spirituality are Christianity are more journey's than states of being. There are many wrong forks in the road. Looking at the answers Gnu got to his question it seems that most people on this forum on a spiritual path are on the right road for them. (that is just my opinion, I make no claim to Divine Knowledge) But that doesn't mean everyone on Earth is on a constructive rather than destructive path. Clearly there are millions who are on the latter path. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:31 PM Very well Mr. Shaw. Your intent is to "To challenge, to rib, to goad, to provoke." without giving offense. ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM I am sure you are right that it would not be a majority view, Jack, and thank you for conceding that there are nevertheless probably some. You will appreciate that my tone in my post of 0241AM today about your all looking down gleefully at Steve's and my torment, to which LH responded, was not entirely earnest, but somewhat tongue-in-cheek! My point was that, if it did turn out that Steve & I had it wrong after all, why, wouldn't we both look silly, just! Still don't think we have, tho, mind! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM I am not so confident of my path that I don't have my own worries. I have to contend with conflicting instructions from the Bible and my own faults. I do feel compelled to say that that when I was an atheist I was a lot more firm in my beliefs (or lack of them) than you appear to be. I never fell for that "what if you are wrong?" trap. I also would be the first to admit that the underpinning of my beliefs are more practical that theological. I am happier and more emotionally strong when I believe that when I didn't. Your mileage may vary. One thing I have always believed is that most TV evangelists are evil. But it doesn't take much wisdom to see that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:43 PM TYPO: ... than when I don't." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:44 PM well steve,we can at least agree that if some god did create via aeons of evolution,it would reflect badly on said god. i was listening to a discussion yesterday between an atheist and a theistic evolutionist who IMO did not do so well precisely because he already was conceding too much ground.i would love to see a debate by the likes of dawkins against a qualified creationist scientist like ,for eg johnathan sarfati.of course dawkins refuses - supposedly not to give creationism respectability.on the other hand if he did accept the challenge he could demonstrate what nonsense it is - could,nt he?.well i have no worries about any such fair contest demonstating which position is weak. little hawk - on line bullies may try to intimidate.if i dont reply to such it is because their attitude and foul lanquage dont deserve any response. eliza - i am sorry that you seem to find my post too simplistic,reassured or not the answer you were looking for. jack that you find it needful to gainsay that post for some grammatical error.wishing you well. pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM Pete, Your lack grammar is inconsiderate and rude and frankly, perplexing. Don't you want people to read what you write and understand it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: GUEST,DrWord Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:56 PM WOW! glad to have paid the visit to catch up around here. just back to "...tangent. I think I may read about Blake. I guess I will start with Wiki." no disrespect to your friend Wiki, but do the fellow a favour, and start with Blake, not with opinions, however learned, about Blake. Maybe start with the aphoristic|epigrammatic Auguries of Innocence quoted in part above. OK I'm a Luddite with a website, preferring books, and loving libraries. But I really love this place, too. Thanks keep on pickin' dennis |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:39 PM Sarcasm?? And Did Those Feet In Ancient Time And did those feet in ancient time Walk upon England's mountains green? And was the holy Lamb of God On England's pleasant pastures seen? And did the Countenance Divine Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here Among these dark satanic mills? Bring me my bow of burning gold! Bring me my arrows of desire! Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold! Bring me my chariot of fire! I will not cease from mental fight, Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand, Till we have built Jerusalem In England's green and pleasant land. William Blake |
