BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM

"the two IDF soldiers who were kidnapped were actually across the border in Lebanon at the time of their capture"

Any reference besides Hezbollah for this claim?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM

And then there's the other guys

What does Hamas believe and what are its goals?

Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raising "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." Its leaders have called suicide attacks the "F-16" of the Palestinian people. Hamas believes "peace talks will do no good," Rantisi said in April 2004. "We do not believe we can live with the enemy."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 05:43 PM

And Hezbollah:


"Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated."

That is from "The Jerusalem Quarterly, number Forty-Eight, Fall 1988".


Anyone wonder why Israel should have no interest other than the destruction of these organizations?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 05:46 PM

"GUEST,hugo: Will you be my bride? :}"

Lepus, do I get an invite to the wedding? I'll wear a yarmulke. Promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 05:49 PM

According to some here Israel should be financing their education, health care and social services as this would make them change their hateful ways and bring love and peace to the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 06:02 PM

I have this bridge . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: snarky
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 06:30 PM

I think Lepus should go fight for Hezbollah OVER IN LEBANON. Put his money where his mouth is. I'll start listening to him when he does something brave for his country. NOT

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 06:31 PM

Beardedbruce: "the two IDF soldiers who were kidnapped were actually across the border in Lebanon at the time of their capture"

"Any reference besides Hezbollah for this claim?"

Yes, it was in an Indian (as in the Indian subcontinent, that big bit of land sticking out into the Indian Ocean) newspaper called Frontline. Unfortunately I don't have an IP address /webpage (I HAD, but I mislaid the damn thing!) for it, but if you search-engine it, you should be able to find it before long (sorry about the inconvenience, but it's too late in the evening for me to do it right now, gotta get to bed soon). By the way, any reference besides the Israelis for claims that the two soldiers were in Israel?

(Sorry, forgot to attach my name to my previous post)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 06:52 PM

It's not easy to destroy entire nations or large organizations, despite the hot rhetoric employed by various fanatical spokesmen. Israel has just discovered it's not as easy to destroy Hezbollah as they had hoped. Hezbollah and Hamas may have zealots who talk about destroying Israel, but to do so is clearly beyond their capability.

We are not living in Biblical times anymore when an isolated tribe can come into the Holy Land or some other place and totally wipe out every man, woman and child in another isolated tribe. We are living in a much more complex world, with a much more complex legal system, with world media watchdogs, with many checks and balances to prevent that from happening in most places. Too many nations are involved to allow it to happen.

Accordingly, whatever rhetoric has been spewed by a few fanatics in 1988 or whenever is basically a bunch of hot air. But one thing is true: the very worst piece of rhetoric will be the one that gets repeated, over and over again, by people who want more fighting.

So, expect to hear it repeated. It won't achieve anything useful. It will just be one more attempt to prove that "the other guy" is basically evil, inhuman, and illegitimate...therefore we don't have to deal with him as an equal human, but just stamp him out like an insect. That is the attitude that fuels these endless conflicts.

No one is going to find a result that meets all their expectations. Not the Israelis, not the USA, not Hamas, not Hezbollah, and not Iran or Syria. They are all going to have to live in an imperfect world together and work it out somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:06 PM

Last night's Charlie Rose had Richard Holbrooke and Bill Kristol on. Most interesting. Holbrooke was impressive, as was Rose himself. I've never seen him that combative before.

Holbrooke, by the way, says that the hostilities are only temporarily stopped, that instead of a ceasefire, they have a cessation only.

As for "the two IDF soldiers who were kidnapped were actually across the border in Lebanon at the time of their capture" both Kristol and Holbrooke said that the Hezbollah no longer make that claim; instead they are saying that the soldiers were "in the vicinity" of the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

Since you like making analogies with the Israelis and Nazis, Little Hawk, I will invoke those same Nazis in rebuttal to your assertion that the hate being spewed by the muslim fanatics against the Israelis is mere rhetoric from a few, and not to be taken seriously. It's too bad that the victims of the Nazis, the millions of Jews, gays, gypsies, Slavs and others could not be around to enlighten us as to the insignificance of Nazi rhetoric in regards to master race, Aryian supremacy, Jewish nefariousness and all the other crap spewing from the mouths of Hitler and Goebbels. It's too bad for them, I guess, that it took the rest of the world as long as it did to take their rhetoric seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 08:13 PM

Guest, Nick - I've already been over this ground with beardedbruce.

Yes, the first reports indicated that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon. That was quickly changed to Israeli soldiers captured on the border. It now seems the Israeli soldiers were actually in Israel.

Thats propaganda for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 08:17 PM

I have often suggested, bobad, that Muslim extremists are like the Nazis too. Like the Nazis, they have an exaggerated sense of persecution and martrydom. Like the Nazis, they encourage hatred and fear to motivate their people to fight. Like the Nazis, they believe they are on a holy mission. I believe both the Isrealis AND their most fervent opponents are a lot like the Nazis in their basic psychology.

You see, the Nazis managed to batter many of the world's Jews into becoming extremists and professional martryrs, and now the Israelis and Americans have managed to batter many of the world's Muslims into becoming extremists and professional martyrs.

So if you want to, you could blame it all on Hitler... ;-)

But then you'd be forgetting that Clemenceau and Loyd George arranged to batter the Germans after WWI into becoming extremists and professional martyrs...and before that the Germans battered the French in the Franco-Prussian war...and before that....

And so it goes...around and around and around the mulberry bush, and everyone making the same error over and over again by reacting to someone's inhumanity to them...by doing it to someome else. (the same thing often happens with battered children)

These aggressive political factions all act like Nazis, to one extent or another. None of them have yet quite managed to equal the harm the Nazis did, fortunately, but it's not for lack of trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

btw - I cited this article from Forbes as the source indicating that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon.

Beardedbruce claims he contacted Forbes and that the statement has been retracted.

Sure it has. Thats why its still on the net.

There are plenty of sources which claim the soldiers were captured in Southern Lebanon, not Israel. Thats why we should all realize that their capture was just an excuse to launch an offensive that has been planned long before their capture. Israel was just using the soldiers as an excuse to invade.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:27 PM

The only people that admire a terrorist organization are terrorists.
May a Kaytusha fly up your ass. Or are you launching them?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM

It is more and more apparent that this sad affair, Hezbollah (aided and abetted by Lebanese complicity and impotence, Syrian and Irani supplies versus Israel and American political and military support, is a harbinger of much larger issues. We are already begun on WWIII, whatever it ultimately gets called. The overall combatants are those who exist in, represent, and believe in, the Open Society, against those who believe in absolute authority, be it religist or racist. The determination of how far this war will go and who will win will ultimately be the Muslims as an entity.
Thrown into the mix is the movement for one world, this day economic and tomorrow political.
The big plus for Bush and Blair is that whatever words they use they basically recognize the importance of staking a claim right now and not letting the situation get any worse. Unfortunately, the Americans, as is customary, are politically quite dense at dealing with the outside world. But the rest of the world is much more dense in thinking that if they ignore the problem it will go away. It will not go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM

The only people that admire bullying militarist thugs are weak cowards who, Walter Mitty like, envy the chauvinist ball clanking of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:13 PM

I was watching an old western series the other night (I recorded some of them and am listening to them years later) and thought one of the introductory songs perhaps deserves conversion into a lead-in for the future Islamic program, Hezbollah to be widely shown in all Muslim countries:

Hezbollah! Hezbollah!
Brave, courageous and bold.
Long live their fame
And long live their glory
And long may their story be told!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:31 PM

Why not indeed, Q? They have rah-rah songs here about the US Marines, don't they? The US Marines have terrorized far more people in the last hundred years than Hezbollah has ever managed to. Ask the many people whose lands they have invaded, and they'll tell you.

Anyone who goes out in a battlefield and puts his life on the line is "brave, courageous, and bold". That includes both Hezbollah and the US Marines. Who supports them depends on who is affected by them, and how.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:33 PM

That's about the current response of those returning to their shattered homes....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:32 AM

The carnage could have been avoided with an early prisoner exchange.

However,only hours after the 2 Israeli soldiers were captured on the border by Hezbollah fighters the Israeli chief of Staff Dan Halutz was in his bank arranging the selling of his investment portfolio of stocks and shares.

Now ther is a priority for you.

This story has not gone down well in Israel ,especially with those sent into the killing zone.The man is on his way out .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:42 AM

Iran and Syria are doing quite well out of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:55 AM

"I call on you to withdraw that statement."

BTW, Hugo: YOU paisan don't call on me for a damned thing. Unlike you, when I have made a mistake I will retract or apologize. You OTOH, have never done either, despite being wrong most of the time. Get lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:58 AM

Man, there is so much chaff and misinformation, half truths, logical errors out there since my last post, I'd be typing all night. Can't do that. NPR! You've got to be joking! Nitwit Propaganda Radio! US Marines as terrorists? Define your terms!

The Left, during Viet Nam and the Cold War championed the communist side of things as did the strident media. Now that the question is Holy War, the Left champions the radical Muslims as does the strident mainstream media. Seems the common denominator here is hatred of the Western World, Democracy, Freedom or More Than One Opinion?   What? What? Some of you are so full of hate or so full of the love of destruction that you can't see straight!

LittleHawk, I'll grant you that though Israel is small in the size of it's territory and relatively small in population. They make up for it in strength, in order to survive.

The Jews, the Israelis HAVE a legitimate country, as legitimate as any other country. They were recognized by the UN. The US was recognized by France. Every country on the face of the Earth was born of conflict and borders have been drawn as a way of saying "We were born to this Planet and we have as much right to be here as anyone else. And let's not kid ourselves, those borders were drawn in blood and strife, greed and conquest, fear and flight. EVERYBODY BORN TO THIS WORLD HAS A RIGHT TO BE HERE. It doesn't get any more basic than that.

We can fight wars, spill blood, draw and re-draw borders and go on killing each other the way we have for the last 10,000 years or more. Or! We could grow up. We COULD learn other ways to settle our diputes and grievences. I submit that THAT has always been the hope of the fair-minded and peace-loving people. Yeah, I'm naive after all these years. You say it isn't going to happen. So it won't. Is Hezbolla winning? No. Nobody wins. Nobody forgives. No one reaches out. And the few who do usually get dead real quick. So call me naive or a fool. I put my faith in the Prince of Peace. Not the one whom people use to prop up their claims to "righteous cause" but the one who IS righteous. You may remember hearing about Him. He had such radical ideas as "love your enemies. Do good to those who despitefully use you, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, give them your cloak also." His followers are truly NOT citizens of this world. IF they were they too would be murders and liars, greedy, devouring one another. But, well, that's probably a topic for a different thread. What does Hezbolla want? The destruction of Israel and the Great Satan, the United States of America. Ah, be generous you can throw Great Brittan in there too. That's you and me. All they want is us dead. So glad so many of you are rooting for them. And before you throw up all the hideous atrocities that have been done in the name of Christ see my prior post about Allah. I would not look to violent men as model exegetes of Holy Scripture.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:26 AM

Oh, and by the way, make no bones about it. Israel acted with great restraint. Anyone with a little knowledge knows that Israel has the ability to take out Lebanon and Syria in very short order were it so motivated. Hezbolla's assertion of a great victory over Israel and the "destruction of Israel" are absurd. Their mighty missles weren't as effective as a few motivated suicide bombers. They had virtually no guidance and 90% landed in open spaces. Pathetic. Truth be known, this was an intelligence gathering event for Iran and Israel and Hezbolla was the catspaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:28 AM

Reply to Slag
Actually the reason the left across the world was opposed to the American attack on Vietnam was because it led to the killing of some one million Vietnamese people,many of them were civilians.Many others were maimed or suffered in other ways.

My Lai was only one of dozens of massacres of civilians.The Americans turned much of Vietnam into free fire zones killing anything that moved -men ,women,children and even animals.

Agent Orange and other toxic weapons were sprayed onto the land in huge quantitiescausing deaths and deformities up to the present dayand leaving a toxic land for generations to come.The stuff was so dangerous that even the US aircrews and their children have been genetically damaged by those poison weapons.

Then there was the Phoenix Programme in which the CIA and its allies tortured and murdered thousands of its opponents and others who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Abu Ghraib was not some modern phenomenon .

Vietnam was a racist war in which the Vietnamese were dehumanised as gooks and charlie and the whole country brutalised.
These are the reasons why the millions across the world were opposed to the slaughter in Vietnam.It was the reason why millions in America campaigned to oppose the war and bring the troops home.

Imperialism was a vicious killer in 'nam then and is vicious killer in the Middle East now.

Always remember that the bosses never send their own children to fight and die.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:39 AM

For more information on American war crimes in Vietnam there is a brilliant documentary called WINTER SOLDIER which is an account of first hand testimonies by US soldiers of atrocities committed by their units in Vietnam.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:06 AM

"Anyone with a little knowledge knows that Israel has the ability to take out Lebanon and Syria in very short order were it so motivated"

And they just weren't motivated this time? In spite of boasting that they would destroy them all in a couple of weeks, that they would be at the river in a couple of days? They weren't motivated by the thought that if they failed, they would lose face worldwide?

~~~~~~~
About Vietnam: ever heard of the Weathermen? They started off by being outraged at Vietnam - they were so outraged at the murder in his bed by Police of one of the Black Panther's leaders that they went underground - the FBI never found them, they surrendered years later, except for a few who went on after the breakup of the group to commit more criminal acts with other groups - and let off lots of bombs, broke into the FBI and stole documents that revealed the plans of the FBI to murder any one who was a 'threat' including Martin Luther King.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM

Vietnam .... different ball game altogether, in comparison to the current mideast conflicts.

Good posts up there slag ... you pretty well said it all ... good one!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:49 AM

"Beardedbruce claims he contacted Forbes and that the statement has been retracted".


Check back- It was not I.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:56 AM

It's the memory of the Weathermen that make the US Pollies wet their pants about modern terrorists - a bunch of US white college students who just did not obey the 'rules' for normal criminals - uncatchable for about 5 years until they handed themselves in - indeed modern terrorists have a good role model on how to survive as 'sleepers' in the US, just by studying them. But they would need to have a degree of intelligence, and understand US society very well... being born there, and not living in a ghetto would be a good start - the Weathermen were mostly 'rich kids' you see...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:05 AM

I think there are a lot of similarities between Vietnam and events in the Middle East.

America suffered a huge blow in its defeat in Vietnam.The most technologically developed army in the world was brought low by a Third World peasant army.It has taken a whole generation for the US leaders to risk another sustained ground war......until the invasion of Iraq .

Once again the US finds itself embroiled in a war that it cannot win despite its military superiority. In Iraq million dollar tanks are being destroyed by rocket launchers and IED s costing a few hundred dollars. The cost of the war is astronomical and the American working class is paying for it with cuts to education,housing and welfare programmes etc.

In Vietnam ,faced with defeat.the US   chose to widen the war with the invasion of Cambodia and attacks on Laos.In Iraq, again faced with chaos and carnage it has chosen to give the green light to Israel to invade Lebanon [ see Seymour Hirsch's article ] as a prelude to an attack on Syria and Iran.

Vietnam radicalised US sociey and produced a massive anti war movement.......after three years of war in Iraq the majority of US citizens want the troops home . Bush who is widely seen as a liar and an incompetent.

The TV screens brought the horror of the Vietnam war directly into our homes.The media is now widely distrusted but we have seen with our own eyes the destruction and carnage delivered by the Israeli bombing of Beirut and the Shock And Awe rain of death delivered to Iraq and by God that has brought out even more people into the streets to protest at the warmongers.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:06 AM

just did search here on Forbes - No luck. - Still looking for where you mentioned it...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:06 AM

"different ball game altogether, in comparison to the current mideast conflicts."

About 20 - 30 US white college kids from well off families, decided that they did not like the US murdering thousands of Vietnamese civilians, and started to do something about it. A lot of similarities between many things, actually... but you need to analyse beneath the surface...

Interesting that most of them were never able to be brought to trial, because the FBI had broken so many laws... the lessons learnt there have not been forgotten, Gitmo, and 'foreign rendering' for a start... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM

The Russians got a very good field test of their latest anti-tank missiles in the last few weeks. Most of the amour damaged was hit by modern, Russian designed anti-tank missiles, exported to Iran and Syria. The expended casing on the battle-field have this stamped on them...

These weapons need a reasonable training to be used effectivley, more than you would find in some of the regular Armies of the area.

Now, where were we on the Hezbollah are a just a bunch of ill trained, badly equipped Gurillas?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:49 AM

The idealogies concerning Vietnam and the mideast are very different (religeous incited idealogy vs political) ... in Vietnam the US was not fighting just the Vietcong (insurgents), they were also fighting the North Vietmese regular army ... the Vietnam conflict incited a well structured passionate anti-war movement in the U.S., this mideast conflict is inciting rhetoric questioning it's purpose, the anti-war movement in the U.S. regarding Iraq is pratically non- existant, lacking the passion.

There are similarities in regards to the military approach the U.S. is taking, disasterous. Similiar in that the U.S. is jumping into something they just don't get ... again disasterous.

In regards to the recent Israel/Hizbollah fiasco ... Israel is fighting for it's life against a well supplied, well equiped organization that is out to completelydestroy them (again religious ideology)

Just a few points here.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 11:28 AM

Sorry, beardedbruce, it was C. Ham and robomatic that doubted the Forbes article. Here it is:

"The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them."

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: C. Ham
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:20 PM

What Dianavan persists in referring to as a "Forbes article" is actually an AP wire service report filed by reporter Jospeph Panossian on July 12 at 5:41 am.

AP has acknowledged that the report was erronious.

A new AP report with the correct information was filed by the same reporter later that day.

HERE IT IS AGAIN DIANAVAN

This was pointed out to Dianavan in the Gaza thread on July 26. To persist in citing incorrect information from an AP wire service story that AP has corrected after you know that the information is wrong and has been corrected BY THE SOURCE makes you a liar.

Peace has already said that he will no longer interact with you. I join him in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:24 PM

"The only people that admire bullying militarist thugs are weak cowards who, Walter Mitty like, envy the chauvinist ball clanking of others."

Do people that fire from behind women and children classify as bullying militarist thugs?

Here is a sterling example of Brave Courageous and Bold:

On October 23, 1983, around 6:20 am, a yellow Mercedes-Benz delivery truck drove to Beirut International Airport, where the 1st Battalion 8th Marines, under the U.S. 2nd Marine Division of the United States Marines, had set up its local headquarters. The truck turned onto an access road leading to the Marines' compound and circled a parking lot. The driver then accelerated and crashed through a barbed wire fence around the parking lot, passed between two sentry posts, crashed through a gate and barreled into the lobby of the Marine headquarters. The Marine sentries at the gate were forbidden from using live ammunition, for fear that a discharge might kill a civilian, so they were powerless to stop him. According to one Marine survivor, the driver was smiling as he sped past him.

The suicide bomber detonated his explosives, which were equivalent to 12,000 pounds (about 5,400kg) of TNT. The force of the explosion collapsed the four-story cinder-block building into rubble, crushing many inside.

About 20 seconds later, an identical attack occurred against the barracks of the French Third Company of the Sixth French Parachute Infantry Regiment. Another suicide bomber drove his truck down a ramp into the building's underground parking garage and detonated his bomb, leveling the headquarters.

Rescue efforts continued for days. While the rescuers were at times hindered by sniper fire, some survivors were pulled from the rubble and airlifted to the RAF hospital in Cyprus or to U.S. and German hospitals in West Germany.

The death toll was 241 American servicemen: 220 Marines, 18 Navy personnel and 3 Army soldiers. Sixty Americans were injured. In the attack on the French barracks, 58 paratroopers were killed and 15 injured. In addition, the elderly Lebanese custodian of the Marines' building was killed in the first blast. The wife and four children of a Lebanese janitor at the French building also were killed.

This was the deadliest single-day death toll for the United States Marine Corps since the Battle of Iwo Jima (2,500 in one day) of World War II. The attack remains the deadliest post-World War II attack on Americans overseas.

I wonder why those "bullying militarist thugs" were so concerned about killing civilians that they did not have live ammunition to defend themselves with.

You should have been on this ship to cheer for these "Brave Courageous and Bold" terrorists:

On October 7, 1985, four heavily armed Palestinian terrorists hijacked the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, carrying more than 400 passengers and crew, off Egypt. The hijackers demand that Israel free 50 Palestinian prisoners. The terrorists kill a disabled American tourist, 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer, and throw his body overboard with his wheelchair. After a two-day drama, the hijackers surrender in exchange for a pledge of safe passage. But when an Egyptian jet tries to fly the hijackers to freedom, U.S. Navy F-14 fighters intercept it and force it to land in Sicily. The terrorists are taken into custody by Italian authorities.

Oh, in case you still think Saddam had nothing to do with terrorisim or Al Quaeda:

Though he was sentenced to five life terms in Italy, and was wanted in the United States, Abu Abbas, the mastermind of the Achille Lauro hijacking, remained a free man. He spent most of the years after the hijacking in Tunisia before moving to the Gaza Strip in April 1996, after the Palestinian Authority took control of the area as part of the peace agreement with Israel.

While in Gaza, Abbas said he was sorry for the hijacking, but the daughters of Leon Klinghoffer said that Abbas had been convicted of murder and should serve his sentence. As a result of the 1995 Israeli-Palestinian interim peace agreement, however, Abbas and other PLO members were granted immunity for violent acts committed before the signing of the September 1993 Oslo agreement.

Abbas eventually made his way to Iraq where he was believed to be a conduit for Saddam Hussein's payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. Abbas was captured by U.S. forces in a raid in Iraq on April 15, 2003. He died on March 9, 2004, at the age of 56 in U.S. custody in Iraq. Klinghoffer's daughters said, "Now, with his death, justice will be denied. The one consolation for us is that Abul Abbas died in captivity, not as a free man."

After reading this I suppose you would conclude that Leon Klinghoffer and the marines that died in Beirut were "bullying militarist thugs" that deserved to die at the hands of "Brave Courageous and Bold" terrorists like Hezbollah and Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:51 PM

I keep hoping I'll get over the sick fascination that keeps me coming back to this thread... (Arrgh! Fighting desperately against the urge to join in yet again...)

Face it, folks, you'd all rather be "right" than "live long and prosper", wouldn't you? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: DougR
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:43 PM

I think they won this round. Seems somebody failed to tell them they would have to disarm. They wouldn't do it anyway and to think they would is a bit, ah, naive. To think Lebonan's army would disarm Hezbollah is equally naive IMO.

Round two (which I predict will come within six months) may be a different story.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:53 PM

Nobody will willingly disarm. That's an old, old story.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: DougR
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:09 PM

Are you of the opinion, LH, that the Lebenese Army/UN Peace keepers will disarm Hezbollah?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM

C. Ham - I am not a liar. I have pointed out that the story has changed from the original story.

I can see that another story (by the same journalist) contradicts the previous story. I have not, however, seen a retraction stating that the first story was wrong. If it was wrong, why is the Forbes article still on the net? Seems to me they would have deleted it by now or at least issued a statement of error.

It is difficult to detect the truth of the matter when propaganda is rampant.

Perhaps you can provide a source which states the inaccuracy of the first report.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:18 PM

C.Ham:

Don't bother responding yet again to the tedious dianavan. We all know what her game is and nobody takes her seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:26 PM

All seems to be gloom and doom for the Israelis and the Zionists.They are the ones who flattened Lebanon killing hundreds of children and maiming and terorising many more...yet they seem unable to enjoy the fruits of their bombing.
In the Lebanon however ,the fighters of Hezbollah as hailed as defenders and heroes by many across the different faiths in the country.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:53 PM

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
tells us about America and Saddam Hussein. (It's American by the way), and how members of the current administration knew what he was doing to his own people and all about his chemical weapons.

So little less hypocrisy from the USA if you please.

And an Israeli general sold all his share portfolio within a couple of hours of the Hizbollah capturing two Israeli soldiers.

And that's not anti-semitic, it is against those who try and prosper from war. And clearly had little to do with getting prisoners released.

Probably just a coincidence of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

I doubt that they will disarm Hezbollah, Doug. I strongly doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:32 PM

Little Hawk, in order to live long and prosper you have to be able to live with yourself. "To thine own self be true."

Excellent post Old Guy. FYI I was an USAF noncom '69 thru '73 and while I was never directly involved in combat I met plenty who were.

I want to pick on Guest hugo's post for a minute. It is most illustrative of what passes for logical thought by many on the far left. (All emphasis will be mine) "...the reason the left across the world was opposed to the American attack ( note singularity ) on Vietnam ( no distinction between North or South) was because it led to the killing of some one million Vietnamese people, many of them were civilians (run-on sentence)." This lack of logical reasoning doesn't even have a classification in the informal fallacies. What you have said is that the left opposed America because of something it would do in the future. That's a neat trick if you can do. The seeds of our involvement in that unfortunate land date back to WWII and earlier. France was heavily involved there and nealy went bankrupt trying to prevent the Northern communist regime from taking over the South. Our involvement was NOT an attack. It was a slow escalation of hostilities. Our initial aim (with which I personally disagree ) was to leave the country divided and let the two co-exist peacefully. But there is no peaceful co-existence with repression. The North wanted the wealth of the South, especially Saigon which had a world trade economy and a culture that reflected the same. When Russia decided to keep uping the ante with arms, munitions, aircraft, training and advisors, our leadership felt that it had to match the bet to stay in the game because the jackpot was all of Southeast Asia. Reference the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, etc. There's a lot of history there you need to know about.

"...some one million Vietnamese people, many of them were civilians (were killed). Many others were maimed or suffered in other ways.
South Vietnamese were suffering the onslaught of the so-called insurgency. As an illustration of their tactics the Viet Cong would enter a village and machete open a pregnant woman's stomach and butcher her unborn child then let her die slowly. Guns were leveled at the other villagers. Resistance was futile. This served as a threat to cooperate with the VC or else. Terrorism was their stock and trade. Talk about massacres. The VC and the Northern Regulars made no pretext of following Geneva Covention. American combatants had their heads cut off and stuck on a pole in the middle of a jungle trail with their gentalia stuff in their mouths. I saw the photos. In the meantime idotic President Johnson let the UN dictate the manner in which we "fought" the war. We could bomb here but not there (where we knew the enemy was). Our fleshettes had to be sterilized (little darts that flew out of certain anti-personnel ordinance) because if the soldier survived the attack he should'nt die of a secondary infection. Tell that to a GI who has just stepped of a pungi stick soaked in month old urine and feces. I could fill a book but YOU aren't listening. You are too busy thinking up your next argument. There was'nt just My Lai. There were other incidents that you will never hear about because the troops kept solidarity. They fought fire with fire when and where they could. Yes. People were maimed and killed. There was enough pain and death to go around. Such is the nature of war. Go and see the Black Wall in DC. Agent Orange. Yup, that was a big costly mistake. Why did it happen? Because our hands were tied by the UN, courtesy of that bastard LBJ and his ilk and our military was casting about for any loophole they could find to prosecute this ridiculous war and not run afoul of the Commander-in-Chief and his kiss-ass stance with the UN. The CIA? Well they happen to be our spy guys. What they do, they do. Every country has them and they do what they do. What can I say? It is apparently a necessary evil in an evil world playing an evil game with national survival at stake, not to mention racial, ethnic and religious survival. Abu Grab is such small potatos by contrast that it seems tame and yet wrong was done. It happens. Get out your mental scale and see how humiliating a POW stacks up to IEDs or beheadings and worse. The difference is that when our officialdom was made aware of the problem punishment was meted out and corrections were made. Have the terrorists done the same? I think not.

"Vietnam was a racist war." That is probably the most idotic statement you have made. But I understand. You on the far left love to throw that word out any chance you get because it sets all the parrots to squawking. "Racism, Racism, WaaK, Racism, Racism!" Wern't the South Vietnamese also Vietnamese??? If not what are they? Were'nt these the people we sought to defend? There are thousands of them here today. I personally help to get some of them settled into our country at the close of the war. I'm sure there are some racists some where that are against them. There always are. there always will be. Was that, is that our offical policy? Get real. It was NOT a racist war. Is any of this getting through to you? Or are YOU so full of hatred for your own that you can't see the illogicality of your statements. You need to learn how to think before you touch the keyboard.

Your last two sentences are fallacious generalizations and are obviously intended to be inflammatory. There was Imperialism in Viet Nam but it wasn't US imperialism. It was Russian. Nor do we have designs on territory in the Middle East. Re the "bosses" children; that's just plain false in all but a very few and glaring instances. This is the fallacy of the hasty generalization.

This is like explaining simple truths to, well, fill in the blank. Actually it's worse because someone who is so steeped in their ideology is never going to "GET" it. You will not listen and you do not think. Hopefully the fair minded will see the truth in what I say or at least give it honest consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:46 PM

Well, looks like the NYT Magazine article I had referred to earlier was right on the mark. Hezbollah, according to reportage, is now planning on financing the Lebanese civilians that suffered loss, will not disarm, is being supplied by their mentors, and, just as the article predicted, has become the de facto government in Lebanon even though it is the minority party.

Seems that the author was quite insightful and prescient---start the war for this purpose and blow smoke by saying you are to protect Lebanon from the Israelis.

Bill H