BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM

oops, i feel like i have made a wee boo boo. sorry folks!!!!!

just thought it worth mentioning how far into childhood these attitudes can go. if we can make kids think about themselves being fat then surely their attitudes to other things start then?

as i said, i am sorry for any thread drift though, i didn't write what was on my mind properly.

forgive me?
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:02 PM

"Prick Tease" is a frustrated mans term for a girl who he really wants to shag, and who he thinks he has somehow earned the right to shag, but who won't shag him."



No, it's not...actually. It's a term that even women used to use. And it was used because in those days women themselves looked down upon other women who behaved that way. Yes, we 'judged' each other..and now, of course, we live in the Day of the Emperor's New Clothes, where total stupidity reigns 'In the Name of Women'

mp, I ain't jealous, trust me. If I wanted, being a now single woman, I could go to any club down in town, get my boobs out and party like the rest of 'em. I *****cannot****** imagine ANYTHING worse! And I have felt that way since I was a young woman. I have always had self respect, as did my friends.

I refuse to sit on any fence. I refuse to be politically correct and not mutter and curse about things I highly disapprove of. As I've said before, I was inside, the day the world was sprayed with Stooopid Spray, so my brain still thinks for itself, rather than this pack instinct of craziness that is so evident in this thread!

If you INVITE trouble in, don't go crying to the world when IN it steps. Look to your own behaviour and make damn sure you NEVER behave that way again.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:06 PM

"just thought it worth mentioning how far into childhood these attitudes can go. if we can make kids think about themselves being fat then surely their attitudes to other things start then?"

What do you think a little girl thinks of, jeddy, when she sees her mum drunk? What do you think she thinks of when she sees her mum dressed in a skirt that goes up to 'there' and a top that goes down to there?   What do you think a little girl dreams of being? Who do you think she wants to be like?

And if mum brings home every Tom, Dick and Harry, and plays Dick-ensian games with them, and she hears all that goes on....what do you think she'll want to be doing as soon as she is able?


Just another point of view....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:14 PM

Lizzie, having your own belief sytems, ethics and morals is not wrong. I believe in a lot of what you say as regards some female behaviours and them selling themselves short. But judging those that do not have the same values seems to be wrong. We have no idea about their life and their reasons. We only know our own. Personally I still think a lot of those women you freely condemn are actually looking for some of the love you have known. They are just going about it differently and for whatever reasons. For some women sex is love... in that it is attention for a few minutes. I have no right to criticise them. I have made my own mistakes in this life.

There still appears to be the suggestion that some women invite being raped. That is fallacious and wrong.

The majority of women getting raped are not as you describe. If you wish to harp on about women's morals and their degrading actions then I am sure you could set up a thread on the subject. This thread is about women being blamed for being raped...

Most here are in total agreement. Women (or men) should not have to carry the blame for the rape. They are NOT to blame for being raped.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:20 PM

"If you INVITE trouble in, don't go crying to the world when IN it steps. Look to your own behaviour and make damn sure you NEVER behave that way again."

In other words - she asked for it.

She had it coming.


What bitter hateful folks lve in this world.


Lizzie, I hope you never ever come out to a club and get your tits out.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:24 PM

sorry again, i was thinking more the sense of justice in kids. of blaming the raped rather than the rapist.

for any other types of kid influence we shoud be talking on another thread. just so you know though, i think the press and music industry has alot to do with things. music vids, tv series.

enough, back on topic.

feel free to smack the back of my hand.

love
jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM

You know...all this non-judgemental stuff gets to me...

Once, we implanted wisdom into our children. We felt it was a right to hand that down....Now, we just implant contraceptives, and send 'em out there, with not one wise word echoing in their heads..

As grown ups we have absolved all responsibility for our children..and I talk their of 'society's children'....


I have far more sympathy for the truly innocent victim, than for the woman who has set out deliberately to cause absolute sexual havoc.

But, that's just lil' ol' judgemental me, I guess..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM

Oh, Lizzie, I judge. Too much if truth be known. I just tend not to judge the same way as you do. On some thing I would, on others not. That is because we are different. All women, all men, all PEOPLE are different

Rapists are not different. They rape. They take what is not theirs. They rely on the fact that if they get caught they will meet people on the jury who hold opinions as you do about any girl who has a drink or wears a short skirt. They pray for your judgements to get them off or at least lessen the offence in some way.

Judge the rapist please NOT their victim is all I ask

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:33 PM

Lox, I'm afraid that the woman that Don spoke of did ask for it, quite literally, then she changed her mind....and she changed it to cause him maximum hurt...So, I'd presume she went into that particular evening with the SOLE INTENTION of doing what she did.

Can you not see what a despicable way to behave that was? Can you not see what a terrible thing that is to do to someone else? I doubt she ever expected to get raped, because she wanted to be in control...but at some point, a woman like that may well come up against the wrong kind of man, and he will NOT treat her as Don did.

Does she deserve those consequences?   

You think not.

I think that if she repeatedly behaved that way, then the consequences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her, sooner or later...and if she was not prepared to accept that it was her behaviour in the first place that led to the chances of that happening, she should never have behaved that way in the first place.

As I have said before...if you don't want to risk danger, then do NOT put yourself into that position in the first place..and please bear in mind, Lox...that I am talking about one particular sort of behaviour, and not about women who are raped despite NEVER having put themselves into any dangerous situation.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

I am not talking about a woman who 'has a drink' mp, nor one who wears a short skirt. There is nothing wrong with a drink or two, but a bottle or two, or three, or more is crazy!   Dressing in a highly insensible (is that a word?) way is also not the best idea....

I'm talking about a particular sort of behaviour, where a woman deliberately lures a man into believing that she wants sex with him..and especially the type of woman who does it deliberately, over and again...Sorry, but I have little sympathy for someone under those circumstances.


And all rapists are not the same, I'd imagine. Some are brutal, pre-meditated, evil bastards. Some are men who simply lose it, because of the behaviour I've talked of above. It does not make any rapist right, or innocent, or to be pitied, but it makes them different.

And I'm sure that'll go down like a lead balloon too, but that's how I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:43 PM

Jeddy,

I think you are absolutely right.

I think that these horrific ideas first get heard by most young people in the playground.

School bullies often come from abusive homes, and they will no doubt be asserting the same morality at school as they see asserted at home.

Girls negotiating the fine line between being a "slag" and being a "prude" - not to mention the countless other ways in which they are pressurized and bulllied by each other and by boys.

In my experience, the girls who dressed straight have always been the easiest and the filthiest in bed.

The ones who dress to shock were often doing so to rebel and to hide their insecurities, and took a lot more convincing.



Lizzie, all your "judgemental stuff" might be useful id it were grounded in reality and not just your fantasy of what young women "get up to" these days.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:59 PM

Come to Torquay, Lox...watch the town on an evening...Listen to all the locals tell you how they won't even go down there at night any longer...Come to the Hen Parties, we're famous for them down here, as the Mayor of Torquay likes to promote his town to the Hens and the Stags...

If only it were a fantasy, eh?


"The ones who dress to shock were often doing so to rebel and to hide their insecurities, and took a lot more convincing."


So....you er....managed to 'convince' them, did you, Lox? ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

"So....you er....managed to 'convince' them, did you, Lox? ;0)"

More often than not no, but I was still able to have a fun time with them once it was clear that they were just enjoying my company and didn't want anything more and I was happy to give then a peck on the cheek at the end of the night and thank them for a good time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM

I think I need to take a walk with Little Hawk's poodles now, and bring a bit of humour back to my head, so I'll leave you to it, again.

Oh, and if David comes in here a-moaning at me for coming back into this thread, tell him it's OK, as I'm a woman and have no responsibility to actually mean what I say at all and he has to have absolute sympathy and empathy with that, whilst letting me behave in whatever way I want to...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

Good for you, Lox...and good for them too. A happy ending all round..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:33 PM

""I'm sorry, but why the hell would anyone expect a woman who behaves like that NOT to be kicked out????""

I agree Lizzie, but why would any right minded person believe that, in those circumstances, it would be OK for her to be raped, and that act of violation would be justified upon the grounds that "She asked for it".

NO!....She did NOT!....She very clearly and unequivocally said NO!

What is so difficult about understanding that?

Please do NOT try to bend MY words to support YOUR agenda, because I do NOT agree.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

""JUST because you are a woman does NOT excuse you from being a stupid, selfish, badly behaved, immoral and amoral brat.""

And the fact that you are a stupid, selfish, badly behaved, immoral, and amoral brat, does not and should not render you liable to rape.

There are a couple of categories in there Lizzie (not immoral, or amoral) which by your reckoning would open you up to the possibility of rape.

If you truly believe what you say, I hope you will take great care.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM

""You know...all this non-judgemental stuff gets to me...

Once, we implanted wisdom into our children. We felt it was a right to hand that down....Now, we just implant contraceptives, and send 'em out there, with not one wise word echoing in their heads..

As grown ups we have absolved all responsibility for our children..and I talk their of 'society's children'....


I have far more sympathy for the truly innocent victim, than for the woman who has set out deliberately to cause absolute sexual havoc.""

OK!

So we now know that Lizzie condones rape for those women who do not behave as she would wish.

DESPERATELY SAD!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:56 PM

Don, that is the FIRST thing that has prompted me to actually post here in ages! GOOD ON ya!

But I really doubt that Elsie will get it if she even reads it. I really don't think she can understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:56 PM

Thanks Sorcha. I really appreciate that. I was beginning to think that I am the only person who can see that victims cannot be considered perpetrators.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:08 PM

Not really Don

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:04 PM

As much as a lot of Lizzie's rants drive me up the wall, her sermons about feminine behaviour seem to have been to some extent grounded in the realization that a fraction of the men out there will prey on a woman that becomes vulnerable through a failure of judgement. But her last post, to me, pushes just that much further over the edge; it is really hard to read it without getting a picture of any number of poor, innocent men who would never have assaulted women if they had not been driven mad by evil hussies with their exposed, or wiggling, feminine parts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:32 PM

The implication by MtheGM that some types of rape are somehow nicer or more justified is concerning.=====

Now, come on, Lox, you're not a fool ~ you know that saying some things are nastier than others doesn't, emotionally, imply that those others are ∴ "nicer": & to say it does, as you do here, is the argument of an unfair fool who has run out of decent arguments and is desperately falling back on frivolous & fatuous ones. You can do better than that ~~ I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:41 AM

From Don:
"I have always been glad that I reacted in that way, and I repeat, she was entitled to change her mind, even though she was a dangerous and unprincipled harpy."



So, Don....why did you regard this woman as 'dangerous' and 'unpricipled'?

I am presuming those words could mean that you expected her to have the right principles, thus NOT behaving in the way she did...and that you perhaps regarded her a danger....to men?   

And if I'm correct, did you regard her as a 'dangerous' woman because you felt that although *you* had the *correct* principles, others may not have been able to act with the same amount of control and she may have pushed them 'over the edge'?

Is that what you mean by 'dangerous'?


You see, the thing is, I feel that women who behave like that are also dangerous. They are dangerous to both themselves and to the men they come into contact with, and as such, they should in some way bear part of the responsibility of the *possible* eventual outcome of their behaviour.

Anyway, my thoughts on your words are purely *my* thoughts, and I am not meaning to portray your words in a way you may not have intended, but I'd be interested to hear why you described her thus.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:49 AM

According to a post on the Archer's Board on Facebook 25% of relationships begin on the Internet nowadays.

If a bloke has travelled a long way to meet someone he has met on the web he might be expecting more than a cup of tea. Would she have led him on do we think?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:01 AM

Depends on the bloke. Depends on the woman. Depends on the cup of tea, I'd imagine. She may love 'builder's tea' in a grubby tin mug. He may love 'Earl Grey' in a flower covered china cup and saucer.

People have to have the right 'blend' don't they, Dave?

If they do, then I'd imagine their teapot would runneth over.

And if they don't, then I'd think their tealeaves could become terribly strained.


I'm off to take Little Hawk's poodle for a walk now..give him some brominde...in his saucer of tea..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:04 AM

"I'm off to take Little Hawk's poodle for a walk now..give him some brominde...in his saucer of tea.."

And when he's lapped all his brominde up, I'll give him the bromide. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:08 AM

A man should have control over his penis. To suggest that men cannot is to do them disservice. It's an insult to suggest that men, when confronted with NO, or without permission for sex, would blindly carry on regardless. Rapists do that. Men do not. That is not to say I think it's okay for a woman to deliberately lead a man on with no intention of sex right up to penetration. But I also strongly bleive that a woman has a right to be able to change her mind (as does the man)

Men may feel peeved, they may even have the right to be peeved if they have been truly 'led up the garden path', but they have no right to sex. The majority of men (the non-rapists) know that and respect that. Only a rapist would push it further surely?

No-one can condone rape.

No more than one can condone a man being raped by a woman.

Rape is inexcusable. Period!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:17 AM

Oh, and if David comes in here a-moaning at me for coming back into this thread, tell him it's OK, as I'm a woman and have no responsibility to actually mean what I say at all and he has to have absolute sympathy and empathy with that, whilst letting me behave in whatever way I want to...

Of course you are, Lizzie, and I would never complain about your right to change your mind. What I would complain about is when you then start to scream shout and run around in circles about how badly done by you are when you brought it all on yourself. And before you feel an analogy coming on, telling you you to fuck off on an internet forum is nothing like rape. OK - So I have responded so I may as well pick up another couple of points -

So, what some are saying in here then, is that a woman should be able to walk down the street, stark flaming naked, wiggling her bum, boobs swaying in the breeze and NO-ONE should judge her for that?

I have not said. I don't think anyone has said that. I, and many others, have said quite categoricaly that she would be a fool. We also said she does not deserve to be raped for being a fool. But not you apparantly...

I think that if she repeatedly behaved that way, then the consequences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her, sooner or later...and if she was not prepared to accept that it was her behaviour in the first place that led to the chances of that happening, she should never have behaved that way in the first place.

"The conesquences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her" I have repeated it again because I did not believe it first time. So, you really believe she would have brought it on herself? That she would have deserved what she got? That any man unable to control his urges would be justified forcing her? Tell me that is not true - Please!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:24 AM

Yes, rape is inexcusable, mp, and no-one has denied that in this thread, as folks are saying over and over, but...so some forms of female behaviour are also inexcusable and that is what is being denied, strangely.

Also, I don't believe that ALL men are in control, which is why we need to make young women aware of the dangers of certain situations, as once, society used to.

There will always be some men who think and feel differently to others, 'dangerous men' and those men are despised by decent men and women alike, but to send a young woman out into the big wide world telling her that all men are in control, should be in control, MUST be in control nowadays, because 'it has been deemed so' and therefore she has the absolute right to behave HOWEVER she wants, purely because she's a woman, is bonkers.

Young women need to know there are higly dangerous situations out there, and you should avoid them as much as you are able to, NOT walk right into them, with a breathtaking naievity....or arrogance.

Most men love and care about women in the right way, but there will ALWAYS be some who do not, and to openly, sexually entice those men is done at the woman's own peril.

Maybe we need to start teaching young women a kind of sexual Green Cross Code, because at the moment, so many are just stepping right out into heavy, fast moving traffic, in front of huge cars that are being driven by men who do not have the capacity, or wish, to stop.

Anyway, time to disappear again, because how many times can we all say the same things over and again?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:26 AM

No, Dave..I said my words. I did not say yours.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:33 AM

I think that if she repeatedly behaved that way, then the consequences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her

Those ARE your words Lizzie and I am giving you a chance to confirm that they do not mean she was 'bound' to be raped.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:33 AM

"Most men love and care about women in the right way, but there will ALWAYS be some who do not, and to openly, sexually entice those men is done at the woman's own peril."

... and that suggests that a woman knows she would be enticing a rapist, for only a rapist would go past NO or withdrawl of consent. I suggest no woman would entice that kind of man. No woman would know a man was a rapist until it was too late (with the very few exceptions of those women who have knowingly protected a rapist from arrest).

I am not advocating women not to be safe. I am advocating that no blame be attached to her if she is raped.

I, too, must go to work or else, like the poodles, I may find myself doing some tail chasing and going round in circles. I actually do not mind the circles as they are obvious to drum the message home it seems. No woman (or man) is to blame for being raped.

poodle tip for now :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:35 AM

Hold on Lizzie,

You have stated that a woman who brings a man home or goes to his room or whatever when she doesn't kow him very well, is foolish and taking a risk that kind of renders her deserving of everything she gets.

Then when folkie dave says:

"If a bloke has travelled a long way to meet someone he has met on the web he might be expecting more than a cup of tea. Would she have led him on do we think?"

you say:

"Depends on the bloke. Depends on the woman. Depends on the cup of tea, I'd imagine. She may love 'builder's tea' in a grubby tin mug. He may love 'Earl Grey' in a flower covered china cup and saucer.

People have to have the right 'blend' don't they, Dave?

If they do, then I'd imagine their teapot would runneth over.

And if they don't, then I'd think their tealeaves could become terribly strained."

Why the double standards?

You have until now been unequivocal in your bombast.

Now suddenly you are extremely cagey and ambiguous.

Should I deduce something from this?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:53 AM

"Depends on the bloke."

You mean it depends on whether he's a rapist or not?

So if you bring a rapist home you deserve to be raped, but if you bring a non rapist home you don't.

Liikewise when you agree to go to his rooom.

How do you know who is a rapist and who isn't until you have been raped?

does inviting somebody back for a cup of tea say something different to inviting them back for a coffee?


It looks like you are agreeing that the the deciding factor in rape is not the womans foolishness, but whether or not the man is a rapist.


It would obviously be very naive and shortsighted to go back to a mans room for a drink when you only know him from the edited posts he has made online, but do you really think that would make her blameworthy if the guy turned out to be a rapist?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:57 AM

MtheGM,

I may or may not be a fool, but I haven't provided any examples that serve to contradict my own point of view as you have.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:21 AM

""So, Don....why did you regard this woman as 'dangerous' and 'unpricipled'?""

Simply, Lizzie because she was the woman you see whenever you look at a young woman out enjoying life.

What you don't see, is that she was actually the one in a million exception, which proves the rule.

I would expect to meet that kind of woman once in a lifetime, and that is what has happened.

There are other possible consequences of her particular actions, apart from rape, up to, and including murder.

If, however, she had suffered any of these consequences, it is the perpetrator who would be responsible.

On a lighter note, I rather liked the fortuitously apt typo......"Unpricipled", I assume that might mean cheap.

LOL
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:32 AM

I am a great lover of the works of Jane Austen, Lox. As much of human wisdom there pretty well as in the Works Of Will himself. So I take my watchword at present from Elinor Dashwood in Sense & Sensibility, meeting her none-too-bright future brother-in-law and letting him witter on, "because she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition". Reached that point with you, I'm afraid. Just carry on without me there's a dear old fellow.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:34 AM

Lox, Folkiedave's talking about the internet there. It is no different for any other form of relationship. If two people blend, they blend. If they don't, they have a problem.   

Do you assume that *all* people who meet via the internet meet purely for sex and nothing else?

I know a few people who've met that way who've found a deep and lasting love...and they have been able to get to know one another, via letters, emails, etc..in a way that may never have happened before. I think there are folks in Mudcat who've met that way..and remained blissfully happy too it seems. Ask them if they just turned up for sex? I'd doubt that was the story at all and they'd probaby be a bit miffed about that assumption being made.

I'm sure there are some who use the internet purely for sexual relationships alone, both men and women, just as they would use pubs, clubs or anywhere else. I think a man is just as much at risk as a woman actually, because she could be there with a knife in her handbag,for all he knows...but then again, that could happen even if he met her in a pub.

There are always ****RISKS***** in many relationships, no matter where they may begin. All I'm saying is be aware of those risks.

And Dave, there are dangerous men and dangerous women out there. So, surely it's just as wise to tell our sons about those women, as it is to tell our daughters about those men. Sadly, they don't come with stickers on their heads, so *that* is why you need to be careful.

And if you ARE one of those dangerous people, of either sex, then as I said, the chances are that eventually you will have to deal with the consequences of your behaviour, one way or another.

Don, you mean to tell me that in your lifetime, you've known relationships with a million women? ;0) Come ON, she was the percentage of however many ladies you have known, surely, not 'one in a million'.

I'm off to the Poodle Parlour now...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:53 AM

MtheGM


"because she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition".

MtheGM, your refusal to engage rationally appears to be fairly consistent throughout this thread.

But at least you are aware of it.


Lizzie,


"Do you assume that *all* people who meet via the internet meet purely for sex and nothing else?"

No I don't - YOU were suggesting that women who invite a man in for a coffee, or accept an invitation for a coffee are somehow asking to be raped and that a man would be within his rights to be offended if a woman refused him sex after issuing or accepting such an invitation.


Regardless fo this, while I would encourage my daughter to make friends online, I would not encourage her to go anywhere with them that was not very public and well lit so she could get to know then face to face over time.

I would be very concerned if she went back to his room for coffee the first time they met.

I have only ever given my personal details out online once and that was just so a CD could be delivered.

I have since moved house and that person does not know my new address.

But I would meet someone in a cafe or some other public place if I thought they were interesting.


When people post online, they have time to consider how their posts read and have time to edit themselves to appear as nice as possible.

It is much easier to con someone online than face to face.

However, I would still place ALL of the blame on the rapist if that's what the man turned out to be in real life.



DonT,

I am curiious to know what happened in the incident of which you speak.

If you would rather tell me by PM or not at all then I understand.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:08 AM

Lox "No I don't - YOU were suggesting that women who invite a man in for a coffee, or accept an invitation for a coffee are somehow asking to be raped and that a man would be within his rights to be offended if a woman refused him sex after issuing or accepting such an invitation."

Eh? (puzzle poodly smiley)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:40 AM

hi

I agree with Lizzie and Mauve.

No women should be raped regardless of her conduct thus far in the "relationship".

I agree that wrong messages can be sent out and all that but at the end of the day all sex should be consensual full stop.

Unfortunately as we all know this is a very simplistic view and all women must be aware of what she could be letting herself in for.

Parental advice as advised by Lizzie is a must as is education of the young.

Again as Lizzie says "relationships" made on the internet are particularly hazardous and special care with vetting out each other a s much as possible is a must.

regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:12 AM

I agree with Lizzie and Mauve.

No women should be raped regardless of her conduct thus far in the "relationship".

I know that is what mauve says and I believe that is what Lizzie has been saying which is why I am so puzzled by Lizzie's phrase "I think that if she repeatedly behaved that way, then the consequences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her" which was used in relation to a woman who deliberately set out to arouse and then repulse a man.

I can only assume that the consequences are rape and if they 'are bound to catch up with her' it implies that it is inevitable that it will happen. That is at complete odds with 'No women should be raped regardless of her conduct' and suggests that it is inevitable that, in some circumstances, a rape will occur. If it is inevitable - how can it be the perpetrators fault?

Mixed messages indeed.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM

While there are many obvious dangers associated with meeting someone on the internet, as outlined by Lox, there are more subtle traps too for those in Love with the idea of Romantic Love and the ideal Gentylle & Parfait Knight

A web site describing some of the dangers of on line relationships calls this
'the Love Illusion Trap' -
describing the, not uncommon, phenomenon of falling in love with someone who you have never met through chat room personas, emails etc

"Often times this is dismissed as being just silly folly, but the reality is, it is much more dangerous that other forms of escapism because it emotionally traps people.
That's right, because you are now 'in love' (and I believe that, speaking on a chemical and emotional level, what people feel in these situations is indeed 'real' love) with what can only be a phantom presence in your life, you cut out other in person possibilities"

In addition the person can start to become quite disdainful of the people they meet in reality as they can never match the class, the style, the charm of an online 'lover'

As I observed in a previous post .
'European and American culture constantly programs us to want 'romantic love'; our culture is preoccupied with it.
It's the most frequent theme in our music, literature, movies...even our fairy tales.'
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM

Furthermore, the example of this idealized Romantic Love often has to 'invent' obstacles where they don't already exist, distance being the most obvious one.


Sorry about the off topic meander but I thought it was as insightful as rants about groups of young women dressing up in 'sexy' fancy dress to celebrate marriages at hen parties.

The search for romantic love may also additionally explain why some immature young (and not so young) women unwittingly get themselves into situations with ambiguous signals.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:46 AM

i am sorry to bang on about it Don, but you did say that happened to you more years ago than you care to remember. i think it is a point that some people have glossed over.
they seems to think that women like that are a recent thing.

i know you don't want to talk about it again, but it might help if you can tell us when this happened please? i understand if you do not want to. but i was thinking that not everything in past times have been rosey and wonderful.

apart from that i am getting dizzy, so now i will take myself off for a break.
have a wonderful afternnon all
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:21 AM

Emma,

In addition to your comments, I would add that some (not all) rapists are men who have an "ideal love" for a woman whom they have put on a pedestal.

This obsession, and surrender to the feelings they fantasize are shared, leads them to ignore a womans discomfort with the attention they are receiving.

Ths fantasy of love is responsible for many rapes.

In addition, objects of this kind of obsession are generally "straight" looking women who the guy feels he wants to love and protect, patronize and control.

Not a great position for a woman to be in, yet where the woman consents, it is the foundation of many unhappy marriages with no actual relatonship between husband and wife.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:24 AM

jeddy, there have always been unscrupulous and dangerous women around, who loved leading men on, as I have spoken of before. There always have been and there always will be. What has happened now though, is that the behaviour of a minority has rippled right out into the behaviour of the majority and that is worrying, very worrying.


So, if women aren't 'out of control' and the men aren't either...why did the NHS launch a campaign of videos that were deemed too explicit to even be on Youtube, in their effort to get young women, and men, to stop drinking?

I mean, people in here, and on other threads, tell me that this behaviour is NOT happening, so why the hell would the NHS want to spend money on trying to get young men and women to stop doing something that so many folks say in here isn't happening in the first place?

The 'Bloody Mary' video - from the 'Cocktales' website of Derbyshire Primary Care Trust

And below is taken from here


"The hard-hitting short film, entitled Bloody Mary, features scenes of a drunk woman urinating and collapsing in the street, while being mocked by a group of men.

It was made by Derbyshire Primary Care Trust for its Cocktales campaign, which is encouraging young adults to drink sensibly this Christmas, and received more than 15,000 hits on YouTube before being removed due to "terms of use violation".

Alison Pritchard, a consultant at the NHS trust, said: "This video does have a dark humour in it, which is designed to capture the imagination and show what can happen if you overstep the mark on a night out. It has been banned from YouTube because of its content, which we realise some people may find controversial."



Yes, any person 'has a right' to behave like that, but geez, where did we go SO wrong in encouraging ANYONE to behave like that, by our apathetic, politically stupidly correct, silence???????????

Give BACK dignity to both women and men. Tell them of the dangers, tell them of the humiliation, tell them about self respect, tell them HOW IT USED TO BE and CAN BE AGAIN, but for Pity's Sake, do NOT let them carry on in this 'sod'em and we'll do it all again tomorra' way!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:35 AM

DonT,

Sorry, I missed your post to Jade in which you explained the incident to which you have been referring.

Would it be fair to say that the deciding factor when you threw out the woman in your home was not that you didn't get a shag, buit that you were being insulted by somebody who you had placed a certain amount of trust in.

If somebody came into my home and decided to entertain themselves at my expense, by attempting to humiliate me or by any other means, I would also throw them out.

Being sexually humiliated is extremely unpleasant.

Just ask a girl who has been raped!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:38 AM

...and this has what to do with blaming some victims for rape? I know you like to blame the 'behavior of young people today' for all our ills. I still blame Bolivian unicyclists. I don't think either should be blamed for rape though...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:39 AM

Sory my last post was in response to -

From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:24 AM

D.