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BS: Pope Francis
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Ed T Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:25 PM ""I see that Chavez's successor in Venezuela suggests that Chavez up in heaven had a lot to do with the selection..."" Not the first politician to make a "wacky claim". Today, I heard a RC Bishop claim on Radio that it was not the cardinals who actually selected this Pope, but it was God who directly directed them, in one way or another, to make God's choice of the best Pope. What's seems like a "wacky claim" to one person seems to be much like reality to another person :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: bobad Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:33 PM "If God tells the cardinals whom to vote for then why isn't the Papal vote unanimous?" - The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:57 PM That'd be down to free will. A bit naive of the Dawkinites to assume all the cardinals would do what God wanted them to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Ed T Date: 14 Mar 13 - 09:09 PM Or, God may not want the vote to look like the decision was too absolute, to avoid the appearance of an absolute power source on Earth? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Mar 13 - 09:15 PM "I never found Jesuits partiularly amenable to reasoned argument" Is it conceivable that they might have felt that you weren't particularly amenable to reasoned argument? The issue here is the word "reasoned". If the existence of God has to be a given in any discussion, then that argument can't be "reasoned". For an argument to be truly reasoned, both sides have to drop their bags at the door on the way in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: bobad Date: 14 Mar 13 - 09:26 PM "That'd be down to free will. A bit naive of the Dawkinites to assume all the cardinals would do what God wanted them to do." Are you even aware of the consequences of disobeying God? Eternal damnation doesn't even begin to describe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Mar 13 - 09:45 PM Frees ill, in theological terms, is not as simple as that, bodad. And I can't imagine a Jesuit being reluctant to carry on a discussion about whether God exists, Steve. That is Rather akin to saying that Richard Dawkins is unwilling to discuss the same topic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Rog Peek Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:10 AM Will he order the release of all records apertaining to abuse by the clergy, and the cover up thereof? Should we shoot for bacon? Rog |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: TheSnail Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:05 AM Steve Shaw For an argument to be truly reasoned, both sides have to drop their bags at the door on the way in. Quite right. If you simply declare your position to be "true", all reason is lost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:39 AM Well I'm glad you agree. As for Jesuits and Dawkins and what they might be willing to discuss, I think you find that Dawkins will take anyone on about any topic in this field without prejudice. Watch any of the dozens of his online videos and you'll see him listening. I think you'll find that Jesuits, in contrast, will argue only from inside their own ringfence. Tell your average Jesuit that the discussion must be predicated on the non-existence of God and the justifiable debunking of all their "theology", until such times as they can produce evidence, and they'll shut the door on you and most likely pray for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM You seem to have come up against some pretty unusual Jesuits, Steve. I certainly wouldn't count them as "your average Jesuit"! That just isn't how any I've met operate. They'd be delighted to start a discussion from a position of no prior assumptions. Probably prefer it. Of course there might have been a misunderstanding about what your existing views were. If you give the impression you believe in God that'd be a different starting point for a discussion than when it's understood you don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:35 PM you dont have to read many of steves posts to know what steves position is - bless him! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:56 PM Steve never leaves his bags at the door, he carts them in, opens them up and discovers they are empty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:09 PM Get rid of the celibacy rule and start promoting conventional marriage. Weed out the sexual predators. If not, society will turn away....and I dont mean the media driven "liberal" society which is making so much noise, but the great silent socially conservative majority, who are getting angry and fed up with being shit on. Still dont understand your stance Joe, you profess to love your church and your beliefs, yet seem happy to see secularism flourish. These people are determined to destroy all you believe in, why dont you start fighting their agenda? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:43 PM Get rid of the celibacy rule and start promoting conventional marriage. Weed out the sexual predators. If not, society will turn away.... Ah yes, you're either a sex predator or you're conventionally married. And you talk about my baggage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM So let's see where we are so far. The new Pope loves people. He catches the bus. He talks to people going to work. He does his own washing up. He lives in a little flat. Bless. Now the reality. He is reactionary and authoritarian, elected by unrepresentative old men who are also reactionary and authoritarian. Not elected by the Catholics of the world, and no woman had the slightest say in his election. Yet the main tenets of his papacy, and of all previous papacies, enshrine the fact that women are second-class. They must not be priests. They must not marry priests. They must not use contraception. They must not have abortions. They must remain ignorant and they must regard poverty as a virtue. Don't tell me, please, from the US-centric point of view, that this is not accurate. Most Catholics live in Africa and Latin America where the Church has an iron grip. US citizens can, and do, fight back against this barbarism: there are 30 million lapsed Catholics in the US. It isn't so easy in the third world. Ask the tens of millions of women infected with HIV, or dying after back-street abortions, or living with disease and misery and poverty, courtesy of the Catholic church's ban on condoms and abortion, whether it's easy to demur. Nothing is going to change. His undoubted complicity in the fascist regimes of the 70s and 80s (which has got the Church's spin doctors in apoplectic panic) is almost a red herring, horrid though it is. Finding a cardinal who's squeaky-clean, sexually, financially or politically, would be harder than finding rocking-horse shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM You seem to have come up against some pretty unusual Jesuits, Steve. I certainly wouldn't count them as "your average Jesuit"! That just isn't how any I've met operate. They'd be delighted to start a discussion from a position of no prior assumptions. I didn't say no prior assumptions. A proper conversation must start with the prior assumption that God does not exist. Saying there must be "no prior assumptions", in a world in which the default position is that God exists is no way to start a fair fight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:09 PM I think that once laws permitting same-sex marriage are enacted, the Catholic Church will drop the issue. They won't go conducting homosexual marriages in their own churches, though; and it would be foolhardy for gays to push for that. Once that can of worms is closed, better not to open it again. I don't think the Catholic Church is far from accepting married priests in the Latin rite. Most of the eastern rites have married priests already. You won't see married nuns and orders of religious men with married members, because celibacy and community living with brothers or sisters are part of who they are. But then I'm a married, male associate member of the Sisters of Mercy - so maybe I'm proof that I'm wrong about that. I think the prohibition against birth control will eventually be dropped, but I don't think you'll ever see abortion approved by the Catholic Church. Ake, you say I'm happy to see secularism flourish. I suspect you're right, but what do you mean by that? If people are "secularist" in their way of thinking, why would I want to see them pressured into belonging to a church they don't believe in? I, as a heterosexual, married person, do not in the least feel that my marriage is threatened by homosexuals who want to get married. And as a believing Catholic, I don't feel threatened by people who choose a more secular line of thinking. What I believe in above all else, is tolerance and fairness and brotherly love. "These people" really don't seem "determined to destroy all (I) believe in." -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:09 PM Aaargh again on the italics front. :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM They won't go conducting homosexual marriages in their own churches, though; and it would be foolhardy for gays to push for that. Once that can of worms is closed, better not to open it again. So gay people will always be second class in the Catholic church then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM I don't do it on purpose, you know, and I haven't had a drop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM Perhaps some Jesuit has been messing up your computer, Steve. They're a cunning bunch. A proper conversation must start with the prior assumption that God does not exist. Saying there must be "no prior assumptions", in a world in which the default position is that God exists is no way to start a fair fight. So your prior assumption is fine, unlike an a priori assumption you might disagree with... Any proper discussion has to start from a basis of finding out what you agree about and what you don't and then exploring the differences and the rationale for these. And that's the way Jesuits approach discussions. I should know, since that's where I learnt to try to approach discussions in that way, at school many years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Rog Peek Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM Pope getting the bus etc. sort of puts me in mind of Margaret Thatcher with a shopping basket! Hope not. Rog |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM Will the new greeting for the pontiff be, "Yo, Frankie!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:12 PM Steve Shaw says: A proper conversation must start with the prior assumption that God does not exist. Steve, could we level the playing field a bit? For the sake of fairness, I think we need to change one word in your proposition:
Then, and only then, would discussion be possible. As for your other question: So gay people will always be second class in the Catholic church then. For the foreseeable future, I regret that's probably the case. I and others do what we can to promote a change in attitude toward homosexuality, but it's an uphill climb. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:17 PM No. I don't agree with that. So might a chocolate teapot in orbit round Mars exist. A sensible conversation will be able to support any assertions made. "God may exist" is an assertion for which no sensible evidence has, thus far, been put forward. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:22 PM Yeah, Steve, but if you want to have a rational and logical discussion, you can't posit at the beginning that your position is true and the other position false. The rules of logic don't allow it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM "Cogito ergo sum" was how Descartes set out his starting assumption. Descartes of course was educated in a Jesuit school... It showed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 15 Mar 13 - 05:59 PM Nice to see Akenaton proving you don't have to be religious to promote bigotry. Again And again And yet decent people buy into the word 'conventional' that he uses. But not in the twisted way he means. Being Gay is conventional you disgusting specimen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Ed T Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:06 PM Since Easter is especially important to most Christians and Rcs, it is nice to know the Easter Bunny participated in events around the naming of a new pope. Below are the details (and, for the less-believing,aka the evidence): Easter Bunny was there |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: framus Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:08 PM Francis Howerd - Ooooh, errrrrrrrrrrr Missus! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:27 PM Hi Ian, so you you think male to male sex is a conventional arrangement?......You must live in a very strange part of the country, or mix in a very strange group of people. We all know that homosexuality exists, but is relatively rare; in these parts, conventional marriage is between a man and a woman. During my working life here, I have known perhaps five or six homosexual couples, all have moved here from other areas, They have been "tolerated" and quietly left to their own devices, they have not pushed their agenda or the "boundaries" and seem to prefer not to be the centre of controversy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: olddude Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:36 PM ya know what the Catholic hating shit is getting old here. very old. Nobody forces you to like or believe anything (which is pretty evident by these non stop hate threads) ME i believe in fixing things that are broken, Thats why I carry a 70 year old watch and drive a 15 year old car. Maybe this guy is the guy to fix what is broken, However ya won't wait and see cause well ya got your hate to keep ya going. How about filling in the blanks then all Catholic are ___ all blacks are ___ all Jews are ___ all Mexican's are ___ there would be people crawling out of the woodwork should someone say anything like that, but bash a person of faith .. that is perfectly ok right .. fuck it talking to the wall |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:41 PM Yeah, Steve, but if you want to have a rational and logical discussion, you can't posit at the beginning that your position is true and the other position false. The rules of logic don't allow it.. This is a tricky one for believers, I admit. Thing is, I haven't got a position. That's the whole point. I can't believe in the truth of nothing. That's just ludicrous. So I ask the Jesuit fellow, or any other fellow, to enter a conversation with the same blank canvas as mine. If I don't do this, then I'm immediately letting the Jesuit fellow/whoever commence the conversation on his ground. Me on the back foot before we have even started to exchange words. That simply can't be a sensible conversation. My position is that I haven't got a position, but I'm interested in yours, so tell me more. And have your evidence ready, because I don't do witness, hearsay, dodgy ancient texts, edicts and tradition, let alone the sayings of chairman pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:43 PM Three strikes on the italics front and still not out. I welcome the indulgence.
-Joe Catholic- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM Looks as if you might have it cracked, touch wood. Perhaps you've got involved in discussions that didn't work along those lines, but I don't think you'd find it hard getting "your average Jesuit" to happily accept that as a basis for a discussion. As I remarked, "I am thinking now. And therefore I know one thing, that I exist" is a pretty good starting point for a consideration of what else might exist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 16 Mar 13 - 04:03 AM Nice to see that members of society are tolerated. Presumably by themselves as they are part of the same society. Who'd be a Pope eh? He has nailed his flag to the mast of intolerance on such matters to the extent that his views on Gays, contraception and, being British dare I say geography, make him irrelevant to the non Catholic world to begin with. No matter, he strikes accord with at least one sad old atheist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Ed T Date: 16 Mar 13 - 06:05 AM Olddude, I can visualize you singing Guy Clark's "Stuff That Works" from parts of your last post:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: akenaton Date: 16 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM To "tolerate" certain types of behaviour does not mean that you agree with the promotion of that behaviour Ian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Lighter Date: 16 Mar 13 - 09:55 AM > all Catholic are ___ CATHOLIC > all blacks are ___ BLACK > all Jews are ___ JEWISH > all Mexican's are ___ MEXICAN That's my position. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Mar 13 - 10:11 AM That rather opens the way to "He's a Catholic/Black/Jew/Mexican - and you know what they are like" How about "All Catholics/Blacks/Jews/Mexicans are not the same" instead? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Musket Date: 16 Mar 13 - 10:27 AM What if I didn't agree with the behaviour of Scots? What if I said that British society tolerated Scots? What if people thought such a statement was valid? What if I said someone who pays more taxes should have more say than someone who pays less? What if as a tax payer I said I "tolerated" those who through whatever circumstances live on benefits? What if as a heterosexual person I said I "tolerated" Gay people? What if you shut the f*ck up and stop poisoning every bloody thread on this forum by promoting hate wherever and whenever you get the opportunity? I'm first for free speech, but f*ck me drunk, you'd be first up against the wall come the glorious revolution... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Lighter Date: 16 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM > How about "All Catholics/Blacks/Jews/Mexicans are not the same" instead? Because it didn't fit into olddude's proffered format. Obviously, however, that's my meaning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,olddude Date: 16 Mar 13 - 12:40 PM what I am saying is it is a hypocrite thing to behave like it is all ok to bash peoples faith. We do not tolerate racism do we, I don't so why is is ok on mudcat to constantly go after people of faith. I don't do that to others, I don't like others doing that to me. When someone uses a racist comment around me, when they wake up off the floor they know it probably wasn't a good idea to say that to me. But day after day those of us with faith deal with the non stop bashing. Now the Catholic church has more than a few issues. It is heart breaking to Catholics. We wait to see if it will someday change and do everything we can to make it change. Maybe this guy will do that. Maybe not .. but it is not ok for constant attacks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,olddude Date: 16 Mar 13 - 12:53 PM should have said in my younger days. Now I just walk away from such. Like I said I am talking to a wall |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Musket Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:18 PM Perhaps olddude, questioning faith as applied to society as opposed to purely its members is seen as faith bashing? Fair question, but not a fair point. When I see people talking about religious equality, it invariably means religious privilege. You see, when a religious cult has influence, the wrong messages are sent. Contraception becomes rarer leading to child poverty and high infant mortality, Gay people are seen as second class, women are told they can't wear pointy hats, people grow up scarred by mea culpa, scientific discovery is held back by "legitimate other views," abortion becomes less of a life saver and more of an excuse to bring misery, especially to the widows, widowers and orphans of those healthcare professionals terrorised by criminals working in the name of their Lord, let alone the poor women needing help. You are right, it is heart breaking, but those with club membership cards hold the key to sorting it and rather than constant attacks as you put it, constant scrutiny is more than justified? Those who you feel we should leave alone are those who can sort this mess out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:37 PM Many a "faith" spends much of its time bashing other faiths or bashing atheism. The Catholic church certainly bashes people who demur from its dictats on matters it regards itself as having the authority of God to decide on. The Catholic church has long taught that abortion is wrong, contraception is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, and now gay marriage is wrong. There is no room for discussion about whether the Church could, in fact, be wrong about these things itself. No, these things are just wrong, and all we are allowed is a conscience get-out clause that the more educated Catholics might get but which less educated Catholics (the vast majority) probably don't get. Mother Teresa said she didn't ever want to hear of a single abortion in Ireland. No-one in the upper echelons of the Church told her to shut her mouth, did they? That there was room for conscience? The Church is all too happy for mixed, confused messages to be put out. And that is the one thing that is definitely wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: olddude Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:07 PM 90% of all Catholics don't listen to what the pope says unless it is about the sacraments. So if you are not Catholic exactly how does it affect you.Other than just hating Catholics. Now taking that same logic do you think all Germans hate Jews because of their past sins. You can go on for centuries, how about what happened to the native Americans. Think about it every organization, political, religious, social, gathering, tribe anything by man is riddled with scandal. Maybe this is the guy who will fix the broken church, maybe not but I will give him his due first. By the way, definition of cult, any organization you are not involved with or don't like |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:47 PM Many a "faith" spends much of its time bashing other faiths or bashing atheism. That would appear to include the atheist face, which is in many ways effectively the established church in many influential circles... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,olddude Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:48 PM by the way, most people I know including myself do not agree with abortion, however, I would never think of trying to stop a person from making that decision themselves and that is the view of most Catholic I know. Mother Theresa was completely right to have her views without judgement as you are with yours in favor. Abortion is the decision a person has to make. I don't have to agree with it nor do I but they are free to make it . |
