Corbyns second referendum proposal

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 05:41 PM

"Gives leavers no choice?" Of course it does! A vote for May's deal means we leave. Geddit, Stanron?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:34 AM

"The 'Peoples Vote was described on last night's Question Time as a 'Rigged Referendum' because it gives Leavers no choice"
What an incredibly stupid statement
The first referendum gave those who didn't want to leave no choice
THe first decision was taking with being resented with a plan of what sould happen if Britain left and no idea of what effect leaving would have on the lives of the British People
There is still no plan (not even on how to leave) but we are daily being given examples of what is likely to happen
THE ECONOMISTS VIEW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:40 AM

What an incredibly stupid statement
The first referendum gave those who didn't want to leave no choice

You are absolutely correct!
The above statement is incredibly stupid. Like many others you author.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:31 PM

of course they had a choice to get off their arses and vote.

however, if it would settle things more decisively, I'm all in favour of giving everyone a doggy's chance and voting again.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:16 PM

In my view it's more a matter of principle, Al, rather than worrying about getting a decisive result. I saw an Emily Thornberry interview (with Stephen Mangan!) in which she expressed the same sentiment as you. We were lied to by both sides in the referendum campaign and were thereby hobbled when it came to making an informed decision. If we really want to rely on referendums (which I personally don't), then another one now would at least be predicated on a better knowledge of the issues. Of course, there would be a campaign and there would be more lies on both sides. That's depressing and I wonder how we've let it come to this. But, to coin a cliche, it could be the least of many evils. What a bugger.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:14 PM

A week or so ago John Oliver on Last Week Tonight made the point that Democracies elect politicians to make informed decisions on complex topics. Reducing it to an up or down decision on the part of an ill-informed public (Here he showed segments from the Gogglebox series, a show about people watching TV) is an abdication of responsibility on the part of responsible parties.

As far as a last moment re-referendum, is there time left before the end of the month to set one up?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:25 AM

"of course they had a choice to get off their arses and vote."
Many people saw no reason to - they were not given any facts and even the leavers didn't expect to win
The voting system in Britain is based on promises nobody has the slightest intention of keeping, which is why so many don't use it - those who do have little confidence of those they elect

This started over the stupid statement that if there was a second vote, it would be unfair to the Leavers
The democracy of allowing people to confirm their decision now they have more of a picture of what is likely to happen seems not an issue with those who envisage a change of mind
Brexit was always sold as a cat in a bag and the animal seems to have inconveniently torn its way out too early
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM

some people have said to me that they think thatif there was a second referndum, that the vote might be to remain they base the argument on younger voters having an increased percentage of the vote ,two years in which more younger peoole will be eligible and in which there maybe less older leave voters, i do not know but it does seem logical.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:30 AM

You overlook the dynamics of the situation as expressed by the following obvious quote:
If a man is not a socialist by the time he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM

A Tory at any age has no conscience, no scruples, is riddled with self-interest and believes in the devil taking the hindmost. Unless, of course, he's stupid.

Here's a quote from a piece in the Guardian entitled "The Tories' response to raging Islamophobia? Turn a blind eye" It actually makes horrifying reading:

On Thursday’s BBC Politics Live show, the Conservative MP Henry Smith dismissed claims of Islamophobia in the Conservative party, citing the fact he personally had not seen any anti-Muslim discrimination.

Yet we have a fair idea as to just how Islamophobia has taken hold among the party’s support base and how its leadership is responding to such attitudes.

The latest report from Hope Not Hate gives some indication of where these sentiments may come from. Almost half (49%) of Conservative voters see Islam as a threat to the British way of life, with a similar number (47%) believing the false conspiracy theory that there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates and non-Muslims cannot enter.

Islamophobia and negative attitudes towards Muslims are very much established within sections of British society – where 18% of people believe “Muslim immigration to this country is part of a bigger plan to make Muslims a majority of this country’s population” and 31% of young children believe Muslims are taking over England.

However, the latest statistics split by party preference show that there is a particular tendency for anti-Muslim racists to vote for the Conservative party, over and above others.

While we cannot be certain of the driver, it is noticeable that these sentiments appear at the same time as the Conservative party is being seen to be trying to placate the hard right. Let’s look at one of the statistics – about Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (popularly known as Tommy Robinson), who is described as a far-right Islamophobic extremist by Hope Not Hate.

An unbelievable 42% of Tory voters have a positive view of the way Yaxley-Lennon highlights issues ignored by the media (compared with 18% of Labour voters).

One might have assumed that such a positive view about a widely reviled and hateful figure would not have any place in a modern Conservative party membership.

Worth remembering when we read constantly only about the confected and highly hypocritical brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism"...

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM

Very inconvenient things, facts.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

Worth remembering when we read constantly only about the confected and highly hypocritical brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism"...

The laddie jests!

Jewish group may split from Labour amid growing row over antisemitism
Peter Mason, national secretary of the Jewish Labour Movement, says members are considering whether to end a 99-year affiliation

https://news.sky.com/story/jewish-group-may-split-from-labour-amid-growing-row-over-antisemitism-11653026
JEREMY Corbyn's leadership has been dogged by an ongoing row over anti-Semitism among activists and officials of the Labour Party.

It culminated in Scotland Yard launching a criminal investigation into alleged hate crimes - and seven MPs quitting in protest at the failure to tackle the problem.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4548219/labour-anti-semitism-row-jeremy-corbyn/

Tis a funny thing! The news worldwide today reports extensively on Labour antisemitism

Is it merely false news,or a confection?
The evidence overwhelmingly says no! Labour MPs quitting over the issue, police investigations and still leftards would explain it away as a canard.

Where does delusion and denial cross into crass stupidity I ask myself.
'Twould seem my quote above is accuracy personified.

Terrible things facts.
con·fect·ed,
To make into a confection or preserve.
A sweet confection, such as candy.

Nothing sweet about antisemitism, neither are your attempts to trivialize it.

SHAMEFUL!

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:43 AM

We're not seeing these inconvenient facts on BBC News, or plastered all over the front pages of The Daily Heil or The Torygraph! Wonder why not?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Cheers for that, John. We could post tons of factual extracts from our sources which demonstrate clearly that rampant Tory Islamophobia and racism makes Labour's antisemitism (which does exist and which requires firm action) look like a kid pinching Spangles from Woolies. But, in the words of Michelle Obama, let them go low. We'll go high. Comparisons are probably invidious, but so is hypocrisy and bigotry.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM

interesting article irish times weekend review sat march2 by denis staunton did you read it Jim Carroll?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:05 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM
confected and highly hypocritical brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism".
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM
Labour's antisemitism (which does exist and which requires firm action)

To confect= to make up

A bit of a volte-face there shaw

Was it those unassailable, incontrovertible facts caused the screeching about turn in less than an hour? or do you not remember your previous post?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM

and I suppose this chappie is simply scotch mist?


https://order-order.com/2019/03/03/mcdonnell-labour-clearly-problem-anti-semitism/

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

I don't think we're going to discuss this subject.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Mossback
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM

The latest report from Hope Not Hate gives some indication of where these sentiments may come from. Almost half (49%) of Conservative voters see Islam as a threat to the British way of life, with a similar number (47%) believing the false conspiracy theory that there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates and non-Muslims cannot enter.

It is somewhat comforting to know that all the absolute fuckwits are not in the United States.

Pardon my schadenfreude.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

"did you read it Jim Carroll?"
No, enlighten me - I threw out the IT when I'd done the crosswords
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

"did you read it Jim Carroll?"
No, enlighten me - I threw out the IT when I'd done the crosswords
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM

JEWISH "SELF HATERS" WHOSE VIEWS ARE IGNORED

ANOTHER - AND WHAT IT'S REALLY ABOUT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM

JEWISH "SELF HATERS" WHOSE VIEWS ARE IGNORED

ANOTHER - AND WHAT IT'S REALLY ABOUT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:09 PM

More up to the minute news from Guido. Accurate factual reporting at its best!

Labour MP Caroline Flint says that thwarting Brexit would be an affront to democracy. All in glorious technicolour for those that have difficulty accepting the written word.

https://order-order.com/2019/03/03/flint-labour-mps-back-mays-deal/

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

I am sure Kate Hoey thinks the same.

It doesn't mean their opinion is mainstream in Labour.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:07 PM

Caroline Flint, Gawd bless 'er, has been a serial opportunist for many a yonk! I bet the independent brigade, whatever they are currently calling themselves, are praying that she won't join 'em...

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

I would like to point out that the thread was started on a completely false premise.

1. It is not the second referendum and
2. It is not Corbyn's proposal.

Not so much a thread title as a Daily Mail headline.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:34 AM

True on both points.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 11:23 AM

"Caroline Flint, Gawd bless 'er, has been a serial opportunist for many a yonk! "
Expenses fiddler and (there goes that name again) A FRIEND OF ISRAEL I wonder what they are all going to do when Nessie gets his come-uppance for CORRUPTION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 03:26 PM

"Caroline Flint, Gawd bless 'er, has been a serial opportunist for many a yonk! "
Expenses fiddler and (there goes that name again) A FRIEND OF ISRAEL..

Perhaps jimmie could explain why he has to highlight the fact the young lady is a friend of Israel as though it is some kind of sin?
Do we have to add antisemitism to jimmies numerous list of faults?
How else are we supposed to interpret his post above?

He makes negative statements about a person and immediately allies that person with Israel.

On 26 May 2016, the Plenary in Bucharest decided to:
Adopt the following working definition of antisemitism:
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews.

Are the mods going to allow this diatribe of Jim's to be unchallenged and unsanctioned?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

A quarter of Israel's population are not Jews. This is one reason among many others why criticism of "Israel" (personally, I prefer to refer to the "Israeli regime") is never antisemitic. Antisemitism is attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. I don't criticise the building of an apartheid wall, the discrimination against Palestinians, the ghettoisation of Gaza and the building of illegal settlements because Jews do these things. I criticise those things because they are bloody wrong, whoever does things like that, anywhere. No more, no less. I support all the people of Israel, Jews or not, in their aspirations for peace and security. I despise people who call for the destruction of Israel. Now tell me how I'm antisemitic.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:27 PM

THere is a huge diference between attacking the Israel government and the Jewish state of Israel. The latter is a hate crime. No ifs. buts or maybes

From the international definition Labour has such problems with:
Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

To accuse someone of criminality and associate them with Israel tars the nation with the same brush therefore it is clearly antisemitism.

Criminality is perceived by most as being a negative character trait.
Therefore the accusation clearly stands.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:34 PM

A state that regards itself as a democracy that consists of a quarter non-Jews is not a "Jewish collectivity." That's no more than an attempt to protect yourself from justified criticism. It's dishonest. I told you what my view of antisemitism is. If anyone can see anything in my last post that is antisemitic, let's be having it.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:56 PM

Actually, don't bother. I'll tell you one very noticeable thing about this barrage of attacks on Labour and Corbyn. We rarely, if ever, hear of the precise accusations that are fuelling this spate of sanctimonious nonsense from people whose only goal is to destroy Corbyn. We don't hear much about who said or did what to whom unless it's from idiots on social media who may not even be party members but who pretend to be. We hear about bullying but we don't hear the substance of the accusations and we don't hear about whether the alleged victims might have deliberately engendered situations, as Ruth Smeeth certainly did on the occasion when the Chakrabarti report was published, and let's not forget how John Mann deliberately orchestrated the incident which led to the demonisation of Ken Livingstone, a lifelong supporter of the Jews in the poorer areas of London (I know, because I was there and he was our ally in fighting racism in all its forms). I don't deny that there will be a few antisemites among the ranks of half a million mostly working-class party members. But I want to see substance, not clutching at straws, and I want to see far less reliance on the say-sos of thoroughly discredited and disreputable people like Margaret Hodge (go on, look her up) and her ilk. And it makes me sick when I think of the rampantly racist and Islamophobic Tory party and the almost-half of all the people who vote for them.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:57 PM

I suggest we move on.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:09 PM

I think I will rely on the IHRA definition of antisemitism rather than read the pretentious posturing of a rabid socialist ex teacher.

I always prefer to give credence to the opinions of real experts, not self-proclaimed ones.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:11 PM

I suggest we move on.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM

Are the mods going to allow this diatribe of Jim's to be unchallenged and unsanctioned?

Unfortunately the mods are of the same persuasion, sad as that is, and is one of the prime reasons why this forum has been deserted by so many, especially the Jewish members.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:44 PM

Well your stupidity was truly nobbled in another thread by those friendly mods, which is why you're trying it on here. You have to be quick to notice, but I noticed.

I suggest we move on. Perhaps I could explain to you one day the parts of that you don't understand.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 06:59 PM

I hardly ever watch ITV (not snob but advert-averse), but I've just watched a devastating piece of investigative journalism called Exposure: Brexit Online Uncovered. When you consider that a one percent swing in the referendum would have given remain a victory, after watching this I don't think that it would be stretching a point to assert that online and social media skullduggery, illegality, bullying, threats of death and rape and sheer lying successfully swung the result to leave. This stuff reaches millions of people below the relatively respectable radar (a term I use advisedly) of the mainstream media. Watch it if you dare and see if you disagree. We are truly being taken to hell in a handcart driven by the feeble-minded.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 07:10 PM

Perhaps I could explain to you one day the parts of that you don't understand.

I would suggest that it is you, who like the leader of the party you support, are the ones in need of explanation of what you don't understand.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 07:18 PM

Comparisons are invidious, two wrongs don't make a right, etc., and whataboutery is a suspect ploy to say the least, but if you watch that programme you might end up agreeing that "Labour's antisemitism problem," in terms of the alleged bullying we're told about (sans neutral detail, of course) is relatively trivial when set alongside the unscrupulous behaviour exposed in the programme, not to speak of the mass Islamophobia and racism of the Tory party and around half of Tory voters. Of course we have these endemic problems and we should take them seriously and I'm not giving the Labour leadership a bye by any means, but the rampant hypocrisy of the Corbyn-bashers is so bloody blatant.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 08:51 PM

When I tried to formulate a relevant Labour Party/ Jewish issue message, I found myself going into concentric circles. Was I trying to speak to other particular posters in this thread, speak to an overall Jewish issue, speak to Labour Brexit issues? I can come up with single note responses, but inter-relating the complexities of the multi-threaded nature of the issues is beyond me.
So I went as is my wont to Wikipedia (yeah, I wwW'd) and found this article. I found it informative to the extent that I can't tell if it is pretty good or pretty good at confounding those with my lack of familiarity with the home ground.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 09:11 PM

Well, robo, "this article has multiple issues." That's wot wiki sez. You will never believe anything that anyone here says, especially from me, a Labour Party member who has fought racism all his life, who supports the state of Israel (though not its regime) and who abhors antisemitism so much that I would not belong to a party in which I believed it was institutional. As you are a rather right-wing sort of chap, if you lived over here I'd expect you to belong to the opportunistic anti-Corbyn faction, who dredge up anything and everything from his past and present that might promote his demonisation (whilst simultaneously turning a blind eye to all the racist and Islamophobic predilections of the Tory party and it's supporters). As you are of that persuasion, I assume, you would be living in fear of his ever becoming our prime minister. But, as Mr Nice Guy (you know I am), I'd love to think that I've got you all wrong and that you're actually a fair-minded sort of chap who eschews the received wisdoms and stark prejudices that surround us all like predatory aliens...

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM

The problem with Labour antisemitism, which undoubtedly exists as it does in every other party, is that it is virtually impossible to distinguish from criticism of Israel thanks to the practice of the Israeli regime using The Jewish People as a shield against their human rights abuses, land seizures and (according to some Jews inside and outside of Israel) attempts to ethnically cleanse the Arabs from their homeland
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/almost-half-of-israeli-jews-want-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html
Antisemitism is the oldest form of prejudice and it is little wonder that some associate what is happening in Israel with the Jewish People - if the Israeli Government can do it, why can't we?
Accusations of Antisemitism have become a weapon a weapon of the right within the Labour Party to remove a leader who looks set fair to return the party to a socialist policy; the threat of BDS has given them a powerful ally in the form of the present Israeli administration, assisted by their voice in the British Parliament, 'The Friends of Israel' - virtually every accusation of Antisemitism can be traced back to this group; these attacks started a few weeks after a meeting if F.o.I. in Jerusalem which was convened shortly after Corbyn announced his support for the Plaestinian People   
Where Israel stands on the question of Antisemitism has been made quite clear by the Israeli Government's co-habitation with EXTREMIST RACIST AND ANTISEMITIC GROUPS - one of these groups has been compared by a Rabbi to THE KLAN
It will be interesting to see whether the current moves to indict Netanyahu with three charges of corruption will lead to a regime change and if so, who will replace the present bunch of thugs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM

"Unfortunately the mods are of the same persuasion,"
The fact that the Mods are prepared to puut up with this personal abuse from a vicious Troll and a serial abuser makes it obvious that this is not the case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM

THe poster has had many hours to disabuse us of the notion that he is antisemitic!
No such attempt has been forthcoming.

This confirms the original accusation, despite shaw's pathetic attempts to play down and sidetrack the issue.

In fact his multiple posts to belittle the accusation rather confirm he feels jimmie's post creates a problem.
Surely it is not a case of much ado about nothing?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:45 AM

I hardly ever watch ITV (not snob but advert-averse), but I've just watched a devastating piece of investigative journalism called Exposure: Brexit Online Uncovered. When you consider that a one percent swing in the referendum would have given remain a victory, (Steve Shaw)

According to most sources the result of the referendum was 51.89% Leave, 48.11% Remain.
A 'one percent swing' would make it 50.89% Leave, 49.11% Remain.
Perhaps our resident ex-teacher needs to work a little harder on his maths.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 04:06 AM

"disabuse us of the notion that he is antisemitic!"
Us - a self exposed racist and a Troll, you mean ?
You may have missed the offer -
I will make s generous donation to any named charity for a shred of evidence that I have ever at any time attacked or denigrated in any way the Jewish People
That offer has been on the table for several years now and so far there has never been a single claim
Care to make one about your anti-Irish racism ?
I thought not
The posting and it's Links are not for you - your respone is what it was expected to be
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

It is antisemitic to discriminate against Jews.

It is not antisemitic to support the Palestinian cause, or to oppose policies and actions of Israel especially when those policies are themselves discriminatory.

I do not understand why some people find this so hard to accept.