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BS: Faith
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Peace Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:25 PM Jerry, They used to bug me lots when I was a younger man. They did this, and they did that. Kinda like an 'everyman' idea, but not. Man, there's some serious brains on this thread. It is neat to read the views of people to do with how they see themselves in relation to their universe and sometimes their God or G-d or Universal Spirit or . . . Truth is, we take most stuff on faith. Heck, why not? If I needed God to prove everything to me, I'd never get anything done. I had a student ask at the time of 9/11 if we would die. I said, "Yes, but not just now." My greatest fear over the years is that of answering an accident call or fire call and finding one of my students trapped or worse. However, I still answer calls, because faith says it's gotta be that way. I awake each day with the faith that somehow things will work out, and most of the time that faith is not misplaced. Good thread, Jerry. Bruce M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:36 PM Hey, c'mon John.. I didn't mean to offend you. I must admit, I prefer "some people" to "they." I never quite know how to respond to claims about groups of people. I had really hoped that this thread would give a positive chance for people to talk about their beliefs, and that's what it's been. I'd really be interested in hearing more about what YOU believe. I are a Christian too, and I welcome posts from everyone, whatever their belief. If people don't want to use the word "faith," for their convictions about how this whole crazy world works, that's allright with me. The posting on here have made me think, which isn't all bad. I too am struggling to figure out what the difference is between faith and belief, and in trying to understand it, and express it better, I trip all over myself. I find myself saying I believe in God, which is true and at the same time I have faith in God. Some things I believe in, but don't have any faith in. It gets confusing. That's why I welcome everyone's conversation about their faith. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:42 PM ... and of course I've met people who are condescending toward those who believe in God, saying that it's just a crutch, or a fig Newton of the imagination. I've also met a lot of wonderful people who don't believe in God, who are very respectful of my faith, as I am of them. I don't much like the ones who are condescending (it not being one of my favorite qualities in people) and I truly enjoy those who see that there are many perspectives on something as important as why we are here, and what we should do with our lives. Mudcat is not a hotbed of religious enthusiasm, exactly, and yet I have rarely had anyone insult or condescend to me in here. Those who have are certainly in the small minority. And I can deal with that, too.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:11 PM Jerry..in my head, 'faith' comes after belief...sort of a subset. If I 'believe' in something, then what do I presume follows from that? What about my belief am I confident in? One can 'believe' in a Supreme Being or Universal Spirit (much like Little Hawk refers to, I'd imagine), but have NO 'faith' about what this implies. (I have met a number of people who DO claim they believe in a 'creator', but have no idea what one should do about it!) I noticed a very similar semantic difficulty in the recent case of the Alabama judge who had the 10 commandments monument installed. When interviewed, he kept using the phrase "I have the right to 'acknowlege' God..."....which supposes that the issue of whether there IS a god is not even debatable. Implicit in the wording is not only his belief, but also his 'faith' about what God wants and what we should DO. He had no problem moving from his 'strong belief', which he felt personally as 'revealed truth', to the position that since (not 'if', since) it WAS truth, it should be (if pressed, I would argue, at least to get the discussion moving, that faith is 'about' a belief or set of interlocked beliefs) does that make any sense? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM convictions about how this whole crazy world works Well, that's the rub, innit? You build a perfectly good set of convictions and the world still acts crazy. So either your convictions aren't a model of reality or they leave something major out which is skewing the phenomena compared to the model OR there's a HUGE Authoritarian Boss just shoving things around willie-nillie playing Department Head with the universe. I submit that if your convictions don't include an understanding of the wildness of the wildcards, the model is not complete. So you keep on looking some more. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:24 PM As Brucie said, "Man, there's some serious brains on this thread." I enjoy READING philosophy/religion/debate discussions tremendously, and have learned a lot...but somehow, I just don't enjoy verbalizing such ideas. I don't know if it's a lack of skill on my part or what...but it seems that so many discussions (I'm thinking more of the how to argue thread) are just too nebulous for me to get a handle on. (That was a polite expression of how I really feel...but that's another thread.) I remember seeing a round table discussion hosted by Bill Moyers (PBS TV program) about the Bible or something. It was very disturbing for me to listen to because it seemed that nobody was exploring one idea to "exhaustion." I felt that as each person made a point he/she just introduced more tension, and there never was any resolution. (think musically here) My friend who loves political discussions loved it...she can somehow think in many directions at once, and it seemed to her that everyone was getting a chance to express his/her individual idea. Bill, I follow-up on many of your links, so keep 'em comin'. Many times there are philosophical terms for the ideas I struggle to verbalize. (I also like your links to free stuff on the net!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:43 PM BELIEFS Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know. Michael De Montaigne |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:49 PM awwww..*smile*...thanks, Mary...(it is genuine work to struggle through the philosophical terms with precision and open-mindedness, and I know folks who can run rings around me at the business!..I learned just enough to be dangerous ;>) (I see my old Philosophy prof. Gerald Paske has retired...he had the ability to home in on 'exactly' what was at issue in an argument and make careless thinkers look foolish.) Respected, but NOT loved! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Peace Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:53 PM Mary from K, If your writing is any indication, you are one of the brains here. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:56 PM I'm with you, Bill on a couple of points. Whenever they takes polls in this country it seems like 80% of the people interviewed say they believe in God. For some (maybe many) that's where it stops. It's not a lot different than saying that you believe the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning. Maybe the follow up question to "Do you believe in God?" should be "And therefor?" Just believing that someone created the Universe doesn't give me much of an idea why I'm here, or what I should be doing with my life. I also don't see the need of posting the Ten Commandments in a public place. It's not that I would be offended if they had a religious writing of Muhammad or Buddah hung on the wall. I might or might not read it, and if I did, I might find something in it worth reflecting on. I just think the focus is all wrong. Rather than being concerned about public prayer, if you believe in God, you should make His presence known in your home by the way you live. As they say in the black churches, "You gotta walk that walk, not just talk that talk." The way you live is the best testimony for your beliefs, whether you believe in God or not. I know many people who don't believe in God who have a strong sense of righteousness, honesty and responsibility who pass that on to their children because they live their belief. I also think you're right that belief comes first, faith for most people takes living to grow strong. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:01 PM Hey Amos: If one believes in God, they have to believe He has a really great sense of humor. Sometimes, all I can do is laugh at what I see happening around me because it seems so ludicrous. Jeanie gave me a little two line joke that I really liked. "Want to know how to make God laugh? Tell Him your plans for the future." I'll never get out of this world alive! Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 03 Mar 04 - 12:09 AM I wouldn't be too sure about that one , Jer. Depends on what you mean by "I", of course, but something will survive, the you before you decided to go into the business of being Jerry, and that you will survive just fine. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: GUEST,Boab Date: 03 Mar 04 - 03:07 AM Thanks for the appreciation of my thoughts, Jerry... A wee story, and truth in every word; I was a miner [an engineer, but I was down there with the lads, and I proudly wear the "Miner" badge]. In the year 1950, in early September, at a coal pit called Knockshinnoch, one hundred and twenty-nine men were trapped underground by an inrush of peaty sludge from an undetected peat basin on the surface. The accident was caused thro' taking money-saving shortcuts by administration. [At the later inquiry, it was put down to "an act of God"---some "god", eh?] Every escape route from the pit was irretrievably blocked by the black porridge-like peat, and it seemed certain that every man was lost. I worked in the neighbouring colliery, and one of my mates, who had been around in the mines longer than me came up with the suggestion that perhaps an abandoned working in OUR mine came pretty close to the mine in which the men were trapped. This turned out to be the case; there was, according to old surveys, forty feet of strata between our mine and the area in which the men were trapped. So the rescue op. became focused on our mine. I could easily write a book about the days that followed. It was an unforgettable struggle. But to get to the point I wish to make; halfway down the long, dark slope of "Number six mine" [abandoned for coal working, kept open for dewatering purposes] there was a twelve-by-eight-inch steel beam spanning the width of the mine roof, bent and twisted by the relentless pressures of subsiding strata, dripping foul water and festooned with dank fungus. One girder among hundreds on the long trudge to the point at which the "rescue" was proposed. But different in one respect; some time in the distant past, when men went down here on their daily graft, some evangelical fella --probably a Baptist---had scrawled a message in ten-inch high letters along that beam, and it had stood the test of time, water and rust. "God is Love", it said. I wonder how many of the many hundreds who struggled and sweated down there that weekend looked at that chalk message quoting John the Baptist, and thought, like me, "Well, I sure can't put the finger on who got my mates into this shit, but there could be a hint as to who will get them out!" We DID get them out, all but thirteen men who were caught in the initial flood of silt. I could have finished at the end of my comment in quotes, but have added the last two sentences knowing that some folks might want to know the outcome. Makes me wonder about the relevance of the Pope, Ian Paisley, and the Moderator of the Presbyterian Kirk.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jeanie Date: 03 Mar 04 - 05:29 AM That is a wonderful true story, Boab, and this is a wonderful thread all round. So many thoughts to ponder on, so many pieces being added to the mosaic. For me, the image of a perfect picture being built up piece by piece, like a mosaic, is the best way I can describe what 'faith' is to me. It is an ongoing process, throughout life. Each piece, each fragment, is beautiful in its own right, and each is unique, but hinting at, pointing to, something so much greater, that I have yet to see as whole, which connects all the individual pieces together. Those fragments can show themselves just about anywhere, at any time, and they are uniquely personal to the one who is experiencing them. If I were to list some of the times I have seen and felt new pieces in the mosaic, they may mean little or nothing to anyone else, because they were for me, for my pattern of understanding. What they all have in common is that they involve a feeling of connectedness with people, with the natural world, a recognition of a wordless love, goodness, beauty and purpose. I love the poem which says that when we are born, we come "trailing clouds of glory from heaven which is our home". It is as if we arrive, having already seen the big picture. Our lives are spent catching glorious glimpses of it. No doubt about it, catching those glimpses have changed me - the way I think, the way I behave - and, as long as I continue to see them, I know they will carry on doing just that. "Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now. There are three things that will endure - faith, hope, and love - and the greatest of these is love." With Love, - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 03 Mar 04 - 10:26 AM What a wonderful story, Boab. There is certainly a song in there.... And so good to see you, Jeanie! One of my favorite images of life is one I've heard many times... that life is a tapestry, and we're looking ath the back of it. We see individual strands of color and know that they are all part of the tapestry, but we can't see the image on the other side and how they all contribute to the picture. For those who believe in God and a life with Him in eternity, we'll get to see the other side of the tapestry when we die. No need to see it here, because we couldn't comprehend it. It's faith that leads us to believe that all the seemingly disconnected strands of our life are part of a grand tapestry. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 03 Mar 04 - 10:41 AM . For those who believe in God and a life with Him in eternity, we'll get to see the other side of the tapestry when we die. No need to see it here, because we couldn't comprehend it. It's faith that leads us to believe that all the seemingly disconnected strands of our life are part of a grand tapestry. That's a fine definition of faith indeed, Jerry. I am not sure whether the first proposition hangs together, though, because it implies certain beliefs as a pre-requsiite for later perceptions, and I am not sure those beliefs are the ones (and the only ones) that will enable such a perception to occur. Not sure about the notion that we can't comprehend such a view from here either, even if we can't put such a comprehension into language. Don't mean to be a gadfly, but I wouldn't want such a sweeping position to go without comment. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: John Hardly Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:05 AM I've heard it said that practice is the musician's ultimate act of faith. Faith allows him(her)to act on the belief that the behavior of practice will help him toward a goal of competence -- a belief that is based on both empirical and anecdotal evidence .... and sometimes just hope. Faith allows me to act on a world view that I believe is based on evidence, both empirical and anecdotal .... and sometimes just hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 03 Mar 04 - 12:45 PM For me, faith has proven to be a true lifesaver, when the chips were really down and all else had failed. But faith can also become a religious distraction, an excuse for closing the mind to alternative, perhaps more beneficial viewpoints, technologies and philosophies. At this point in my life, I consider "faith" second-best to real knowledge gained through first-hand experience, through trial and error, through a lifetime of doing "inner work". Faith is, however, a fine and very workable starting-place for anyone interested in spiritual growth. daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:05 PM Thanks, Amos: I'm not sure that I subscribe to it either. I've just heard it many times. Personally, I don't need it. I'm right at home, being confused. Been that way all my life. :-) Gadflies are welcome! Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:06 PM Glad to see you in here, John... I'm on the run.. taking my wife out to lunch. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:09 PM Following Bill's link, first article, first line (see Bill, I read 'em): "Why is it that a future-like-ours is the one that counts and not--say--the future of a pig or cow?" And this illustrates my point...I just don't want to spend time arguing out of this one. Jerry, back to your original question. One of my favorite Biblical stories is from John when Jesus heals the blind man. Paraphrasing: After the man's sight was restored by Jesus, all his buddies ran up to him saying, "Hey man, what happened here, tell us about it." And the man replied, "All I know is that I was blind, but now I see." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: CarolC Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:25 PM I think the tapestry analogy points out a difference between some ways of experiencing spirituality and others. Some people believe that the tapestry won't be revealed until the individual is separated from physical existance, while others are saying that they already experience the oneness of things, and can thus perceive all aspects of the tapestry even while residing in a physical body. For the people who experience oneness, the idea of separateness is an illusion, and has no substance. But for those who experience the perception of separateness, the separateness has purpose, and so is valid in its own way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: GUEST,shy cat Date: 04 Mar 04 - 08:29 AM hi guys i am a mudcatter posting as a guest, because what i am posting is possibly unbelievable. talk about faith has connected with talk about religion. i practised a form of meditation which was similar to Tibetan buddhism, although it was an indian practise. I spent over a dozen years practising meditation, four times a day. I went through a difficult time from 1978 - 82, for various reasons, with my health and a bad marriage. the marriage had fallen apart the week before. I went to a group meditation, one evening a few days later. this is my experience: I meditated, eyes closed, until my mind became so still that my sense of observing self withdraws to a point of non- presence. Suddenly I am in the night sky, space. A huge ball shoots away from me, becoming smaller, until it becomes a small dot in the universe and disappears in space. I have just zoomed from my planet towards a huge light, shooting through the universe. A hole in time, a pause. I fly through the night sky, emerging from the closest star, the sun. From a huge mass of burning light that is conscious, explosive, vibrant. I zoom through the universe, towards my body which is now collapsed on the floor. Returning, I see myself in a totally detached way, my personality traits, faults and strengths, as if observing a genetic program. I observe that I will enter that body, that genetic pattern, that I'm going to be that again, then I plunge straight back into that body and personality. Now I am lying stretched out on the floor. My body feels saturated in light and is so conscious, and I am so drunk with ecstasy, that I cannot move. My mind is not limited to a point within my skull. My whole body is conscious and my mind is perceiving from my whole body. My body is made up of a sea of atoms/cells, each cell is glowing with golden light. Each cell is its own conscious entity. Each cell of my body is consciously perceiving. My mind is dwelling in my body, a sea of billions of little minds. My three month old daughter is placed in my arms. I hold her, and she too becomes saturated in the golden cocoon of awareness. Some time later, my muscles are so relaxed that they don't function properly. I have to be helped to sit up and walk because I can't co-ordinate myself properly. This happened in February 1982. It was not the result of imagination or visualisation. if it was i would do it every night. it felt real, like my spirit had left my body and the planet, flown through the starry sky and into a huge ball of conscious light (the sun?) before emerging, returning, re entering my body, which was by now in a state of complete ecstasy. since then, for various reasons, i gave away meditation, & had a normal life working and being a parent to my children. I entered a new happy relationship and had a good life. now, i look back on that experience. in the moment, it was wonderful, it was a realisation. but life in the last few years has been pretty normal. having a rational mind, despite that experience, I am still unable to sentimentalise about God, the universe, and while i can sometimes feel inspired, at other times i feel spiritually dry. I would like to be sustained by faith. but how? sky cat/shy cat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:00 AM Shy cat, that's an amazing experience! Thanks for sharing it! Sounds to me like you received enough spiritual sustenance and information about who and what you really are (above and beyond your human body, mind and emotions) to keep you satisfied for quite some time to come. There are many people who study, meditate and practice various spiritual and psychic techniques for years, trying to get even a first glimpse of the truths that you experienced. But until they are ready to handle the information/experiences without losing their "balance" in everyday life, it just doesn't happen. They'd give their eye teeth to have an experience like yours! It's too bad you feel your experience is neither "rational" or "normal". I know many people, myself included, who have experiences similiar to the one you described on a regular basis, through meditation, shamanic journeying, lucid dream work etc. And I do still consider both myself and them to be just as "normal" and "rational" as anyone else! I studied with a US-based spiritual organization called Eckankar for a number of years. Their teachings are based primarily on Eastern mysticism. Eck students study at home, practicing spiritual exercises specifically designed to prepare them for experiences like yours. Eckists call such experiences "Soul Travel" (which, they warn you, is really misleading because you don't really "go" anywhere. You just experience yourself on the more subtle planes of awareness). If you like, you can find out more about "Soul Travel" and read about other people's similiar experiences at this link Thanks again for sharing your experience here! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:25 AM Sky Cat, in case you feel like reading about your experience from a slightly different angle I recommend: E. Cardena, S. J. Lynn, S. Krippner, Varieties of anomalous experience, American Psychological Association, 2000. I recommend Chapter 6, Out of body experiences, but also the chapters close to this chapter. Each of the chapters brings first a description of the experiences with some personal reports, then correlations with personality traits or states, then results from neurophysiology, then more or less all theories (not only the scientific ones) made to explain the experiences, then relationships to other experiences, and finally, the authors' conclusions and open questions. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Art Thieme Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:51 PM I've no need to discommode so many of my good friends here by saying how things seem to me from where I sit. Other threads are here at Mudcat that say that stuff way too stridently. I'm sorry for those posts. Perpetrating those, at least partially, denies some sincerity to my feelings that live-and-let-live is the only way to go if we are to survive here in this life with any moral high ground and dignity. But watch out. Faith leads to films being made like The Exorcist and this new one by Mel Gibson. In one the blood is way too THERE---too red---as if the liquid had been put through PHOTOSHOP and enhanced with an intensity that can only be there when human emotions and over the top sentimentality are exploited to perpetrate other agendas. In the other film the color is green as the vomit of hell is spewed from the mouth of the demonized one whose neck swivels 360 degrees on a special effects ratchet. In both cases extreme dramatization can make a travesty of the tenets and dogmas of that faith. The audience comes there with their faith held tightly and vulnerably in their hearts. Then they are assaulted by visions that warp their faith almost subliminally---but quite actively actually.--------- In effect, these films play on basic beliefs of the people----and to me that is unconcienable. I've mixed some ideas here. Sorry 'bout that. I guess it's just that sometimes there do seem to be valid reasons for censorship---even when doing that smacks of censorship and limits the $$$$$$$$$ taken in. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Mar 04 - 04:18 PM I had what seemed like a moment of unsual clarity today. I was listening to bluegrass gospel and washing dishes when I heard this song (again): "There's a Higher Power." It seemd to sum up most of what I know in my faith-- that no matter how true and powerful anything else is, there ALSO is an even higher power. Musing on it later, I expanded upon this statement of faith to realize that no matter how UPward a thing is, there is always a place (or a person or a way of being or a way of doing) that is farther UPward... it's part of the nature of being human that however UP we ourselves are, we can always seem to see just a little farther up than we ourselves are, and reach for that till we can grasp it and look, again, a little farther beyond... And in my experience, it matters whether one tends usually to be looking UP and forward, or DOWN and backwards. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: CarolC Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:46 PM shy cat, I used to know someone who had an experience that sounded quite a bit like what you have described. I met him a few years after he had the experience. By the time I met him, he had become somewhat bitter and dissatisfied with his life because everything he had experienced since what he considered a period of enlightenment, seemed pale and flat by comparison. He felt very cheated because he couldn't have that experience of enlightenment every day, or at least he perceived that he couldn't It wasn't my experience so it wasn't really my place to try to interpret its meaning or purpose for him, but I always felt that maybe he'd had that experience to show him what was possible, and that it was up to him to make it a part of his everyday life. But like I said, it wasn't my experience, so I can only guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 05 Mar 04 - 10:52 AM Carol I'm sorry to hear that your friend's experience left him feeling cheated, "pale" and "flat". Unfortunately, that's often what happens when people have experiences they're simply unprepared for physically, mentally or emotionally. I always felt that maybe he'd had that experience to show him what was possible, and that it was up to him to make it a part of his everyday life. That sounds right on to me. You can lead a horse to water, but it's up to the horse to drink it. Or not. Many people don't understand just how high the costs of having such experiences can prove to be. People can't just walk away from a profound spiritual or visionary experience the same way they can walk out of a movie theatre or turn off a TV. If it's real, you ARE going to be changed, and if you're not ready for your new threads, LOOK OUT! People who have experiences like this but have not learned how to control or direct them often find they simply cannot "turn it off" or assimilate the information healthfully into their everyday lives. And imo it's these very people who, unfortunately, comprise the bulk of the nation's psychiatric patients. I didn't understand until I'd been into this work for a while that spiritual energy is of an OPPOSITE nature than physical energy. As one drops, the other rises. That's why people starve themselves before and during vision quests, for example. That's why you have to be really dying (physically) to have a "near-death" experience. And that's why people often report having unprecedented spiritual experiences during their darkest moments, while they are undergoing severe emotional/personal trauma. Now that I know this, I don't seek out such experiences very often any more. If they happen, great. If they don't, that's fine too. WHen they do happen, I know they usually knock me right off my feet into the "other worlds" for quite awhile, and I certainly can't afford to be in "that space" every day of my life. Not if I want to keep functioning effectively here at all! (Like, I do need to eat too ... and it IS nice to be able to go to work so I can pay my bills ...) Anyway, that's enough rambling on for now I think. Thanks for the great thread! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM Oops, forgot to ask ... Wolfgang, is the study material you recommended in a university text or in an issue of the American Psychiatric Journal? I'd love to find it ... what you've reported about it sounds so VERY intriguing! I really do like to have a healthy balance of the scientific with the spiritual when investigating these matters. All the "new-agisms" which seemed so absolutely wonderful to me years ago have been giving me quite the royal PITA (Pain-in-the-a**) lately .... daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:14 AM Shycat: You have, from your own experience, all the faith you might ever need; the experience was exactly as real as it seemed to be at the time. You may find there are few words to really describe it, because it goes beyond normal human experience, but it is nonetheless certainly real, compellingly so. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:28 PM This happened in February 1982. It was not the result of imagination or visualisation. if it was i would do it every night. it felt real, like my spirit had left my body and the planet, flown through the starry sky and into a huge ball of conscious light (the sun?) before emerging, returning, re entering my body, which was by now in a state of complete ecstasy. --- Hello Shy Cat. It felt real because it WAS real. What you experienced was a conscious OBE (Out of Body Experience) Everyone. I have experienced a few OBEs, the Talk show host (Art Bell) told of an OBE he had over the city of Paris one night. Authors like William Buhlman, Rick Stack, Albert Taylor, Robert Brude, and several others have written books about how to initiate an OBE. My first OBE happened after I had been meditating for over an hour while directing universal lifeforce energy (Ch'i, Ki, Mana, prana, Manitou, Nuwati, Reiki, and dozens of other names) into an injured ankle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM Daylia, it's an edited book, the three names are the editors (most chapters are by different people) and the American Psychological Association is the publisher. I could get more information, but not before Monday. I consider it a very good book (well, not each chapter, but on the whole) for its very balanced view. OBE is a perfect term, better than the old fashioned 'astral travel'. Out of body experience. It doesn't make any assumptions about what is the basis for the experience. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: dianavan Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:16 PM Where science ends, faith begins. Faith accompanies many of our actions. I have faith that if I am kind to my cranky, old mother, my children will be kind to me when I am old. I have faith when I believe in others. I have faith in my ability to shape my own destiny. I have faith that my ancestors, who have walked this earth before me, will guide me. Science is beginning to prove this (DNA). Once proven, faith in this will no longer be necessary. Faith is what we need to believe when there is no empirical evidence to support it. Faith is personal. It is not dogma. It is not brainwashing. It is not indoctrination. It is what we need to sustain us when there is no reason to believe. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 06 Mar 04 - 08:26 AM Wonderful post, dianavan! Faith can't be proven. If it was proven it would be knowledge, not faith. That does not mean that you have to suspend your intellect to have faith. It also means that arguing about faith is bound to fail. Discussing faith can help us all to understand each other better, even if we don't share the same faith. If you really want to know the Truth, you can only find it by using your heart and your mind. At least that's how I see it. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bobert Date: 06 Mar 04 - 08:39 AM Yeah, good post, d, and thank God (pun very much intended) Faith can not be proven or it would lose those wonderful spiritual and magical qualities. Same goes for love. (And, top of the day to you, Brother Jerry. And just a slight drift but this is "Appresiation Day" down at Arhie Edward Barber Shop and we will be honoring all the older bluesmen that frequent it. Ahhh, speaking of Faith and in this case, blessings...) Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Cruiser Date: 06 Mar 04 - 09:26 PM My concept of Faith verses faith (and belief) is here: 25 Dec 03 4:00pm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Mar 04 - 09:40 PM Great subject for a thread. I derive faith from a number of sources... I have faith in life as an experience that is full of meaning, not accidental. I have faith in the Universe as a creation that is full of meaning, likewise, and not accidental. I have faith in my own worth, goodness and the basic goodness of Life. I have faith in my intelligence and my abilities to see me through. I have faith that there is a higher purpose behind this existence. I have faith that death is not the end, but a new beginning...that Life never ends. I have faith in a loving God, but to define that God would be to define all of Life and existence itself. An unlimited subject, in other words. I don't have time for it at the moment. Will get back to this tomorrow and read the rest of the postings. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 06 Mar 04 - 11:54 PM I have faith in my ability to shape my own destiny. ----- Dianavan; Faith is only PART of what is needed. You also need to support that faith with universal lifeforce energy. I say this from personal experience because I have changed my future MANY times. 30 years even I did not even like me, and was on the short path to being put UNDER the jail. Today I am a kind caring compassionate energetic healer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Ellenpoly Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:36 AM I've been writing like crazy to try to put together my thoughts on this subject...maybe I'll be finished enough to post by tomorrow! Really thought-provoking thread, Jerry. Thank you!..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: John Hardly Date: 07 Mar 04 - 09:02 AM I strongly disgree that science does, or ever will make faith obsolete. I think that scientific method is valid and, in a pragmatic way, it is generally trustworthy. But science has shown to disprove its previous conclusions SO often that it should be obvious that, though scientific method is valid, the conclusions drawn from it are as fluid as faith and belief. I think that another thing that confuses this issue is that we live in a time when we have utterly confused technological advancement with intellect. But that's just not true. For every "forward" step in technologial advancement (knowledge), we take a step backwards as well -- we lose touch with the previous (still valid) technology. A concrete example might be that there are fewer and fewer people who understand the inner workings of their automobiles. It used to be common to know how to work on you own car -- now, with advanced technology we've had a huge gain in convenience -- but an equally huge loss in general knowledge. Many of us here understand this concept when it strikes closer to home -- alternative medicine. I'm betting that most here have found usefulness in that which "science" has discarded -- acupuncture, chiropractic, herbal, and other alternatives.... Valid "technologies" which "pure science" eschews. We are absolutely convinced that we are advacing to the point of an unnecessary faith - that's why it is so easy to hold religion with the general contempt it regularly recieves here on the mudcat. It(religion -- and therefore, by implication, faith) is percieved as the primative, vestigal remains of once functionally usefull opiate for the (ignorant)masses. That is certainly the implication when one asserts that we will intellect ourselves to the point of faith being unnecessary. Also, there is science and then there is science. I don't believe that science is nearly as pure as it would appear that most here do. Just as I can see the horrible flaw in science being ruled by the church's whims as it was in the day of Galileo, Science, as a practical matter is falling into the same unscientific flaw -- that of being presuppositional in its approach. It's just that now science is just as strongly rationalist/materialist/natural in its presuppositions as it ever was religious in the presuppositions that tainted its method in the middle ages. That may be okay to the extent that it continues (valuably) to uncover more and more about the natural universe by always digging deeper with the assumption that if we keep on trying we can understand everything by physical explanation. But the reason it is arrogant is because of how far down the time line of understanding I think we imagine ourselves. I think we think we're actually knocking on the door of a unified material/natural world view. In reality, my guess is that we are not only NOT knocking on the door....we aren't even on the sidewalk leading up to the door. Again, that may be because we assume technological advancement is far more valuable to our understanding of the universe than it actually is. It also (if we were able to check that presuppositional, naturalist approach to science) just may be that we aren't even knocking on the right door. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Donuel Date: 07 Mar 04 - 09:14 AM The kind of faith which is a trust without reservation that brings joy to the believer is a wonderful thing. It need not be a matter of proof or evidence arguements any more than observable facts need to be worshipped. There is one supreme evidence of faith that goes beyond any catagory of religion or secular definition and that is... caring. Caring is the single most important and redemtive quality in a human being. For an artist or lay person alike, caring is obvious in their work as it is with its absence. No matter how a person comes to express their caring is a beautiful thing. There may be people who need conscience to be taught. If that is in a religious format they will be better for it. If it is in a secular format they will be better off for learning. I would hope that it is a rarity for a person to have no inate conscience but evidence in the world may hold a contrary viewpoint. Perhaps mortality itself is to blame when a rich person still can never have enough wealth to stave off death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: John Hardly Date: 07 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM Said another way (from my previous post), we are so enamored with the technological advances and knowledge explosion provided by science that we seem to have given science "done deal" credit for having already solved the puzzle that is the universe. Our faith is absolute and "religious" (maybe blindly religious) in the potential of science to answer all the questions of the universe. But Science as a body has acquired a sort of "high priest" status in our modern culture. Very much like the magician/priest of old who held a few tricks (and often a language) secret so that it could continue to derive its power by maintaining popular ignorance, science maintains power by the inherent compexity of data……all the while disguising that it is not the data in question……..it is the conclusions drawn that makes its own "science" not actually science. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 07 Mar 04 - 10:20 AM Science certainly does not mak faith obsolete, JH -- couldn't agree more. But it moves the place of faith from an incantation of superstitions to something closer to the soul itself, perhaps less likely to spawn words. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: John Hardly Date: 07 Mar 04 - 10:27 AM I agree with you Amos. I just happen to think that the line is in a different place than most here seem to have drawn it. I guess what I'm saying (in addition to the above) is that what we refer to as "science" is not, strictly speaking, "science". Still it is given unassailable status as such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 07 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM Right --- as such it is the world's most popular cult. Actually it is a subdivision of the larger and older religion, Worshippers of Matter in Space Time (WOMIST). WOMIST has been around since the dawn of our species and possibly much longer. WOMISTians are everywhere. Your own kin or neighbor could even be one and not let on. There are ways of telling, though. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 07 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM I think that scientific method is valid and, in a pragmatic way, it is generally trustworthy. But science has shown to disprove its previous conclusions SO often that it should be obvious that, though scientific method is valid, the conclusions drawn from it are as fluid as faith and belief. ---- That would be a good strategy IF scientists had an open mind, and strength of conviction to stand and report things out of the mainstream. Scientists are so afraid of being ridiculed by their peers and loosing their finding they will NOT stand and report the truth. I would suggest for you to buy od check out the book "Forbidden Archaeology" that book documents discoveries that have been burried, or hidden in storage. Aloha nui loa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: John Hardly Date: 07 Mar 04 - 11:29 AM oh my gosh, amos. I just did a google search and you are right......WOMISTs are everywhere! I think I shall join you in the donning of the foil skullcaps. (why "don"ning? Who exactly was "Don"? which "Don" and what did Don have to do with putting things on? ......speaking of "put ons") |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 07 Mar 04 - 01:04 PM In the old days, poeple used to wear a similar device -- cloth caps with gold thread in them -- before foil was invented. These were called pacems, and one of the pop hits of the day was a song called Donna Nobis Pacem, about the pacem belonging to a teenage girl (Donna Nobis) who used yellow thread to save money and was snatched in plain sight by an alien cloud as a result. The story is long forgotten, but we still talk about "Donning" our little hats to defend us against the mind-control beams of the WOMISTs. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: John Hardly Date: 07 Mar 04 - 01:21 PM "...but we still talk about "Donning" our little hats to defend us against the mind-control beams of the WOMISTs" This is why it is so important to remove the beam from your own eye before removing a speck from your brother's eye. |
