BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:25 PM

Hate, Alba??

Did "Tookie" Williams hate those four people he killed? Did he even know them? They were simply unfortunate enough to be in his way, in between a vicious gang leader and the money he wanted. What was his 'haul' on each occasion, about $100.

Hate had absolutely nothing to do with the deaths of four people Williams was convicted of killing and hate had no part in the execution of a convicted murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:35 PM

Where did I say I seeked revenge. I abhor violence, whether it be from gangs, war or the government doing their act in the death penalty. I was asking Sunnysister if she gave any thought to the vicims as she was so disturbed by the thought of Tookie being euthanized. Maybe if we all take a global look at violence and where it a comes about we can put an end to it all. All in all Tookie was violent, the death penalty is violent and we are all the victims of their swords.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:43 PM

In the next coming weeks, there will be more gang murders, there will probably be more executions by the state. Will there be any thoughts to it all when going to bed at nite. Unfortuantly it took the likes of Tookie and all this emotional hoopla over him to make the news. Sad, because there are more victims albeit a clerk in a store, a innocent kid shot in a drive by, another hapless victim of the needle on death row and some mother's son over in Iraq. How much thought is directed at these.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:44 PM

The FIRST thing that anyone naturally gives thought to is the innocent victim(s) of a crime. It's some time later that one gives thought to the situation of the accused.

If you are not seeking vengeance, Guest, then, great. That's good. What are you seeking?

We all wish for a world without violence, but I can't figure how we are going to get there. I know the death penalty won't get us there. It IS violence itself, after all, as you just indicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Alba
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:45 PM

To Kill is to hate Teribus.

Hate is Hate. An emotion. It requires an outlet. It manifests itself in many ways. When Hate is in the Heart or Head it will come out eventually.


Hate is a powerful and driving force if nurtured and allowed to thrive.
Eventually it spills out.
You say,
"Hate had absolutely nothing to do with the deaths of four people Williams was convicted of killing and hate had no part in the execution of a convicted murderer. "

Well that is your opinion Teribus and I respect it but I do not agree with it.
I believe that Hate had everything to do with the deaths of four people and the execution of Williams.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:50 PM

I guess the best way that any one person can end violence in the world is simply this...don't commit it.

One step at a time. If you expect all these problems to be neatly resolved before you die, however, prepare to be disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:01 PM

Don't worry, I've been disappointed for a long, long time. I realized back then that it just goes round and round.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:13 PM

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth only makes the world blind and toothless." (M. Gandi)

I don't know what this guy thought, but I would rather be freed by death than locked up for life. If he thinks like I do, they freed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:19 PM

That could be, Kendall. I've no real objection to people being executed if they definitely want to die. I've an objection to people being killed against their own will.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,Cretinous Yahoo
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:20 PM

To kill a person because they killed puts us in the same hog wallow. No difference at all.
The death penalty is barbaric to we who are more highly evolved than those who just want revenge.
As Kendall just said, life in prison without parole is more cruel than death. One gets to dwell on ones shortcomings every day for a long long time. A lethal injection and it's all over in seconds.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:23 PM

kendall, it seems to me (and I have barely followed the story at all), that this man had made peace with and reconciled himself to life without parole. However, according to the usual grisly details dished out by the yellow journalist media that was present for the execution, he fought dying to the very end.

The will to live is usually extremely powerful. I don't know that you would choose death over life, even if you were facing life without parole. It's one thing to say that when you sit comfortably in your chair on the internet, another thing entirely to say it with conviction when inside the walls.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:27 PM

Same thing occurred to me...

One reason various people shoot themselves, as opposed to some other methods of suicide, is they expect it to be quick and painless. It doesn't always work out that way, though.

No one knows how much they want to live until they are actually facing death. Most find that they DO want to live, at that point. So I've heard, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:31 PM

boy, I dunno what I think....I'm not exactly 'against' the death penalty totally, but I worry about how it can be abused or used mistakenly.

and in this case, I wish it had been used EARLY, when Williams was still a young, un-reformed punk. After 30 years, he 'seemed' to be a different man.

   I have concerns that we are valuing life differently in various situations...and that we often don't even understand our own motivations in opposing or condemning various activities that lead to deaths. I truly do NOT see the use in having prisons full of people who OBVIOUSLY are guilty and unable to function in society (and who must be fed and housed at the expense of us all)....but neither do I want stories of exectuions of innocent men....

I just do not know.......

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Arne
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 02:23 PM

Martin Gibson:

You absolute clueless morons who make this evil prick the victim have obviously not seen the picture or read the text describing the poor young girl's face he blew off in a robbery.

I don't know of anyone who's making Williams out to be "the victim". That's your "straw man" (gratuitous insults noted as well). No one is suggesting that he not be punished for the crimes he did commit, and no one is saying that the victims didn't suffer a cruelm horrific, and undeserved fate. What I don't understand is how killing him makes this a better world. Harldy a Christian sentiment (something I find curious in a country that is nominally majority Christian). I don't know if Williams is truly "redeemed" (and that is a matter for reasonable people to disagree on(, but a world without redemption is truly a heartless world.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Arne
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 02:37 PM

Bill D:

... and in this case, I wish it had been used EARLY, when Williams was still a young, un-reformed punk. After 30 years, he 'seemed' to be a different man.

So that he couldn't be given a chance to reform and repent??? Perhaps that's the real problem with the death penalty, in a nutshell....

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:14 PM

So many conservative Christians, so few lions. (Utah Phillips)

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: gnu
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:39 PM

Arne said, "What I don't understand is how killing him makes this a better world."

Violent murder. Senseless murder. Instigating murder and violence through founding a gang whose very existance was meant for terrorizing, extortion, murder.

Each case on it's own merits. Fair. Let's say, for the sake of arguement that he actually did do all the crimes he is accused of doing. Do you still want to keep him around?

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:41 PM

I have thought a lot about the death penalty. Thirteen years ago, my cousin was murdered. She had just gotten in a car with two of her grandchildren. A man approached her snatched her purse and shot her in the head.

I have come to believe that there is evil in this world. I believe this man was evil. He needlessly murdered my cousin. He never explained why. He was an addict who needed ten dollars for his next pill. That explains robbery, it does not explain murder. Thanks to some witnesses who pursued this man he was arrested, tried, and convicted. He was sentenced to death.

This murderer never admitted to this murder although the evidence was overwhelming.

I believe in the death penalty as punishment. I believe in the death penalty as a way to prevent evil from continuing. I believe in the death penalty as a deterrent. In my State, some jurisdictions the States Attorney almost never pursues the death penalty. In others, the States Attorney pursues the death penalty if he or she believes the crime fits the criteria. The areas where there is effectively no death penalty are the same areas with the highest murder rate.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:06 PM

"Each case on it's own merits. Fair. Let's say, for the sake of arguement that he actually did do all the crimes he is accused of doing. Do you still want to keep him around?"

Yes, because it isn't about him, it is about us as a society. Murdering him doesn't do anything, except give a few people a shot of vengeance adrenalin.

Roger in Baltimore, I have a similar story to yours. It was my cousin's son, 16 years old, shot to death as he rode his bike home one summer night around 10:30 pm. It was a gang initiation. All three of the teenagers involved in the murder were convicted, and sentenced to life in prison.

Our state has no death penalty. Some members of our family and friends wished there was. I wasn't among them, and neither were any members of the boy's immediate family, who are Catholic, and opposed to the death penalty.

Sad. Depressing. Disempowering. Maddening. We were certainly angry. I am still angry, every time I think about it (he was the same age as one of my two kids). But killing the shooter won't change anything. Not one thing. It won't lessen the horror the family went through in the wake of the murder, or what seemed like the endless days of the trials (3 of them).

Amazingly, even though over 90% of the parents of murdered children get divorced, these two didn't. They have admirably moved beyond the stage of being stranded in the grief and rage over how their son died, and have redeemed themselves and their marriage by remembering him the way he lived, and in seeing the beauty of his life. I don't know if people who witness the murder of the person who murders their loved one reach that state of grace, but I kind of doubt it. It seems to me that living in a constant state of vengeance and hate pretty much condemns a person to remain untouched by the state of grace that is always possible, no matter how horrific the death.

We aren't what we are because of the way we die, but because of the way we live. And that is what loved ones should try and hold onto, rather than bitterness, vengeance, and hate. At least, that is my take on it, after watching people I knew go through a murder in their family.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Arne
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:43 PM

Gnu:

Each case on it's own merits. Fair. Let's say, for the sake of arguement that he actually did do all the crimes he is accused of doing. Do you still want to keep him around?

If you're asking my opinion, I say yes. Killing someone (particularly intentionally) is barbaric, and robs you of your humanity, bit by bit, life by life, as you take the lives of others.

Yes, "Tookie" Williams was a gang leader, a very violent person, and a danger to us all (but just a FWIW, more so to himself that he ever was to you or me, at least statistically). I certainly don't laud that behaviour. I just don't see that we set any kind of an exmaple by showing the gangs that we too live by the motto "an eye for an eye".....

Roger in Baltimore:

I believe in the death penalty as a way to prevent evil from continuing. I believe in the death penalty as a deterrent.

Would you feel differently if it were shown that the death penalty is not a "way to prevent evil from continuing"?

The areas where there is effectively no death penalty are the same areas with the highest murder rate.

"Cum hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. While superficially appealing, that's not really any proof of the causal link.

(the last) GUEST: What you say rings true to me.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:52 PM

Arne....about 'earlier'....the point is that IF one approves of the death penality, 30 years is a bit long to wait. IF he had been executed within 2-3 years, it would be far less troubling for many of us..."founder of Crips, convicted multiple murderer, executed"

I think my only real objection is when there is real doubt (i.e., lack of absolute proof)..Williams died claiming innocence, and who really KNOWS?

In the Wichita case (BTK), and in the Green River case (40-50 confirmed deaths) there were confessions, yet no death penality because they used a plea bargain to get details. If ever murderers deserved the ultimate penalty, those were examples.

Like I said earlier, I really am unsure how to deal with the question, except on a case-by-case basis.....but I really don't think we can argue that killing is RIGHT in Iraq, but WRONG in certain criminal cases. (and do NOT doubt, that is what some are arguing)

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: lesblank
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:26 PM

I never thought the day would come when I agreed with Martin Gibson - however, having been affected by an act of violent crime, I totally agree this time. For Ebbie, and Stilly River Sage and Bobert and all the other bleeding heart liberals, what would your feelings be if one close to you had been one of Tookie's four victims ???

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:39 PM

Killing this guy because he killed says more about us than about him.
I live in a state that has no death penalty, yet it is one of the safest in the country.
This hackneyed term "Bleeding heart liberal" is nothing more than a way to piss off some people. If you study his teachings you will have to agree that Jesus was a bleeding heart liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:44 PM

Fair question, lasblank... Yeah, I would be mad and sad... Actaully, I had a good friend murdered when I was about 12 years old... He was 14... It hurt a lot for a 12 year old... But, that was just a neighbor and not like my wife 'er my mother...

Yeah, it would be very hurtfull and, yeah, maybe my initial reaction would be wantin' to just beat the killer to a pulp... Kill him or her??? Not really... Just beat 'um and make them hurt...

But we don't live in a world where the relatives and friends get an opportunity to just flail away on a killer... And that's good 'cause it gives us individually and collectively time to regain that part about us which is civilized and seperates us from the murderers and rapists...

In all honesty, there are certain tests that God puts us thru and in times like these the tests are harder than stoppin' to help someone on the side of the road... These ate like the pop quizes that we haven't prepared to take. These are teats that test our Faityh, our Love in out fellow man, and our Love in God...

I think by this point in life most folks have confronted those "what if" scenerios... I can honetsly say that I don't want any6ones death on my hands... Period... Yeah, let me have 5 minutes with the guy or gal but I ain't gonna kill nobody... Actually, in those five minutes, I might not have to lay a hand on the murderer... Sometimes folks just need to know just how much their actions have hurt other folks...

May not be the answer yer looking for, lesblank, but that's the way I feel...

In killing a peacemaker last night California din't bring back any of his victims, that is if he actaully killed these folks, whcih isn't the issue... No one sprang back to life like after a movie scene... California is just out one peacemaker...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:04 PM

That question, lesblank, reminds me of what a friend said to me in the height of the US civil rights movement. He said, You're going to feel a lot different about it when a black guy points his rifle at you.

I said, Believe me- I would feel every bit as bad if it were a white guy.

The argument you are using is the old 'Would you want your sister to marry that guy?' or whatever the question of the day is. It is way too easy a rhetorical - and dramatic - thing to ask.

In the violent loss of someone you love, feelings of grief and fury and frustration are real. They are to be expected; sometimes one cannot even bear to think of someone having to die like that. The what-ifs are endless.

But loss happens. And grief at a violent loss is not the only kind of grief there is- it is very hard to lose someone to disease or accident.

In the end, all one can really do is to learn how to deal with it. Just accept that our sympathy too is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Arne
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:51 PM

Bill D:

I really don't think we can argue that killing is RIGHT in Iraq, but WRONG in certain criminal cases. (and do NOT doubt, that is what some are arguing)

Certainly not me.

Lesblack:

For Ebbie, and Stilly River Sage and Bobert and all the other bleeding heart liberals, what would your feelings be if one close to you had been one of Tookie's four victims ???

The same. Why do you think it would be different? Do you think it should be different? That doesn't sound anything like what I think could reasonably be called "justice", and perhaps that's one of my objections to the death penalty. Turns out that one of the bigger factors as to whether you get the death penalty isn't your own race (fortunately, that's no longer quite so determinative although it may still play a role). It's who you kill!!! If you kill a white person, you're more likely to get the chair (or whatever latest "humane" way we have of killing someone). I hate to say it, but the measure of a crime oughtn't be the "worth" of the person who was killed. Which is why I oppose "victim impact statements": when some homeless wretch is killed, it is every bit as much a tragedy and a crime as when the bank president with a successful and handsome husband and two kids gets killed ... even if no one will stand up to mourn their passing or stand up in court and scream for the pound of flesh.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM

This thread should be retitled, "Tookie's martyrs."

What is dead wrong is that 24 years went by before he was executed and this cold-blooded killer was allowed to live and make a new legacy for himself while his victims were not.

To be a deterrant, execution after conviction without a doubt should be no more than 4 weeks. That is the way it used to be done, before lawyers turned it into a circus in the courts.

An eye for eye as they say all you half-assed Christians. Make up your own rules as you go along. That's the liberal way when it comes to history and morals.

This guy Tookie finally paid the price for his evil and now he costs the taxpayers nothing, thankfully.

Hey Lil Hawk: Don Firth is just a silly old guy at this point who doesn't get out much anymore and is out of touch with the world except for spending way too much time in front of the computer. bobert on the other hand, is so mentally disturbed, it's scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:49 PM

Booo!

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:53 PM

Letter From Heaven

Mama Cass has dropped some weight
and Charlie Parker's clean
Django's fingers have both gone straight
and they've got driving lessons for James Dean

Jimi's playing faster
and sometimes we jam all day
And old Abe Lincoln is a happy boy
'cause he finally got to see the end of the play

chorus:

It' a great life here in heaven
It's better than the Bible said
It's a great life here in heaven
It's a great life when you're dead

There ain't no egos anywhere
and no one talks show biz
And Gabriel he's got a great big smile
He's taking lessons from Miles and Diz
Bing Crosby's on the green in one
and he's singing when he putts
And Elvis really likes to visit earth
just to drive you people nuts

chorus

And me, I couldn't be happier
The service here is fine
They've got dinner ready at half past nine
And I'm going steady with Patsy Cline
And just last night in a bar room
I bought Robert Johnson a beer
Yeah, I know everybody's always surprised
to find him here

Bill Morrissey

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:54 PM

I'm not scared of what I fully understand, pal. You are so easily pegged. so boo back to you. Consider who is watching you, smoke another joint and get paranoid on a daily basis.

Ahh, a day in the life of a bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:08 PM

Haha, Marty....

First of all it's been a long time since I smoked anything at all....

And I ain't at all paranoid... I know how to play with adults be they Repubs, Dems, Neo-Cons 'er whatever... I live in an area of the country where a Chicago fool like you wouldn't last a week...

No brag, just fact...

Yeah, it's prolly very easy fir you to fire away from a'far in an area that is very diverse and tolerant...

Get in yer car and drive to Page County, Virginia, or even where I used to live3 in Jefferson Co., Wes Ginny and you'll instantly know that this ol' hillbilly has more actual survival skills that ain't got opne thing to do with being paranoid than anyone from Illionois would ever be able to appreciate...

And guess what??? I don't just survive... I thrive livin' with folks that you would most likely find revoltin'...

Like I said, no brag, just fact...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM

bobert, you need a top hat and cane for your schtick.

Why would I want to go to those hillbilly places you frequent and get my butt dicked by some cousin of yours with no teeth?

I can listen to WSM Nashville from here and get all of the good country music I want.

Besides, your so called tough hillbillies would shit in their pants walking through an alley in chicago. And more than likely, they would not have another pair to change to so they would just continue to stink from both ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:21 PM

I know, I know I'm feeding into the thread diversion but does anyone else think that Bobert and Martin Gibson would make a great TV sitcom, I find them entertaining in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:37 PM

With appearances by special guest Don Firth.

Hey, I feel I'm onto something big here.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM

Okay, bobad, I'm in... Chicago don't scare me one bit... My folks lived in New York City fir years so I spent a lot of time bombin' 'round New York... Heck, I done my first recording in Brooklyn... I got friends in Queens...

No, ain't me gonna get no shakey kneess no matter where I go but, Martin, I'm worried about... You get his little butt down in God's country with the folks you'd think he'd feel all warm and fryuzzy with seein' as most of therm voted fir Bush and guess what??? He gonna be scared to death of these folks... More to gettin' by than just havin' voted fir Bush...

City folk don't know nuthuin 'bout that...


Martin hang 'round me fir a week down in these parts and he'd never have nuthin' bad to say about me if he lived to be a couple hunner years old...

Like I said, no brag, just fact...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM

My Austrian son-in-law is visiting (with my Australian daughter) and has just told me that there is talk in Austria (a country that is opposed to the death penalty) of taking Arnold Schwarznegger's Austrian citizenship from him, because of his refusal to grant clemency in this case.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:10 PM

Well, freda, I think Arnold's human citizenship oughtta be taqken from him...

And, if Maria Shriver has any true grit, that ain't thwe only thing that oughtta be taken from this chump...

He is a disgracfe to Austria, ot the United Sates, to California and to mankind in general...

He's a jerk and I'd like 'bout three good rounds with him if anyone can arrange it... Hey, I win, then he quits... He wins, I kiss his butt on public TV...

But he won't go three rounds with this skinny hillbilly 'cuase he is a loser...

I am so sorry, Maria...

I'd throw the slob out in the streets where he belongs....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:20 PM

Bobert, I'll get in there with you and mash him. My family on my father's side were boxers (that Irish blood)- and I have a little (very little) karate up my sleeve. Between the two of us...!

big hugs for a man with a big heart! (and that's NOT you, Arnie)

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:30 AM

Arnold will tear you both apart. Lights out, Tookie.

bobert, I could have sworn you said that you have friends in queers. Doesn't suprise me with all of your phony tollllllllllllerance. As phony as your writing, bobert. Maybe even phonier. Go brush your tooth, hillbilly. Hah!

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:56 AM

Bobert:

You, Old Guy, are not in the majority...
You got any facts to back up your claim?

How do you respond to that??? Yeah, opinion polls are showing more and more Americans agi8nsts the death penalty...
You got any facts to back up your claim?

What are you gonna do... Move to Afganistan, where you canm get the death pernaly for writing an article the says that woman deserve to vote???
George Bush removed the Taliban from power in Afghanistan, thereby eliminating their executions of women accused of adultery. We saw one of those executions taped secretly. We also saw barrels of hands cut off as punishment for theft. You hate George Bush and you are against the war on terror so you must be for the death penalty. You are self conflicted.

Well, go on... I'll purchase the airline ticket fir ya'....

I will take you up on that. I wouldn't mind seeing the good work that our military has done there at great personal sacrifice.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: kendall
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:54 AM

One other aspect of this death penalty is the fact that if a killer flees to a country that has no such punishment, they can, and do, refuse to extridite the bastard back to the USA.

A number of you have mentioned losing someone to violence. Who else has lost someone?
I lost a cousin and an aunt. (Domestic violence) One was caught on video tape.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,A
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:38 AM

Freda, I think your Son-in-law is making up stories. Or you are.

"No brag, just fact". Is there anything you have not done?

And 68% of Californians are for the death penalty. (they voted)
How is that for a so-called Liberal state?

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:01 AM

Old Guy,

Gotta get to work right now but I'll get you the poll um,bers on the death penalty tonight...

Also, when it comes to the Taliban being removed from Afganistan, you musy be getting your information from the Fox entertainment and propaganda network... I'll also provide you with some interesting thoughts about Afganistan tonight...

Freda,

Yer on, and I know my way around a doojoo myself having been married to a 3rd level black belt and karate instructor... It would be fun whuppin' up on the terminator... I still think Maria should leave the creep...

Gotta go,

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:28 AM

I have seen the best of Mudcat and the worst of Mudcat. This thread goes more to the latter than the former. We have a fella who is against the death penalty talking about whupping someone. Aside from sounding very foolish, he further goes on and calls a man who brutally murdered folks and bragged about it, who threw acid on guards, and had a death row conversion, a hero. What's wrong with this picture?

We have others rejoicing in state sanctioned murder, and acting as if it is fair, even in light of the DNA project of the near recent past.

The only folks with any credibility are folks like SunnySister who simply oppose the death penalty. I do as well. Here is why.

The maturing of society should equal growth in our laws and our national conscience. The inability to understand that killing someone because they killed someone is insane. Second, it has been shown time and again that this punishment primarily hits folks that can't afford big time lawyers. It is not meted out in an impartial way. I would much rather attack the root causes of the violence, and get the publicity for that cause, than publicity over someone like Tookie. Another problem with it is that there is no way to correct a mistake. Once they are dead, mistakes such as the type that caused the conservative Republican Governor of Illinois to suspend all executions, cannot be rectified. Death penalties, if we are to have them, must have a burden of proof that is beyond all doubt.

Spare me all this "Tookie was a hero" horseshit. He was a cold blooded killer. He bragged about the gurgling sound the family made when he shot them in the back. When you tell me that we should weigh his life after his conversion, I say OK, but only if we balance it with his deeds prior. This man started an organization that is responsible for untold misery, and deaths. He broke the law, was convicted by a jury of his peers, and suffered the legal penalty. I would prefer that he be put in a cell with no room to sit down, and be forced to work at hard labor for the rest of his natural life. No TV, no special privileges, and prison fare to eat. That would be a punishment that would be far worse than death.

The death penalty is barbaric, doesn't deter anything, is nothing more than revenge, and lessens us all when it applied. To sit here and try and act like this criminal was a hero takes away from the legitimate case against it.

And by the way, Bobert, I love ya and all ...... don't care much for Arnold ...... but he would whup yer skinny ass.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:13 AM

Once again, Mick, I side with all you've said.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:24 AM

Woo hoo i'm in! Administators shut down websense this morning :) I can't figure out why this site is considered entertainment but some of the other forums i'm on are not. Oh well..

I'm not sure what the subject of this thread is? If the subject is should Tookie have died, the answer is yes. He was tried and sentenced legally.

If the subject is whether or not we should have a death penalty, then my vote is yes. And in MUCH greater numbers. I would propose any sentence with 20 or maybe 15 years with a death penalty. I also agree with another poster that there needs to be a time limit to appeals. Perhaps a seperate judicical committee that would allow one or possibly two appeals within a year.

The main complaints that there is no correlation and that the cost is too high is due to the application of the death penalty. Unless there is the political will, there will be neglible benefit. The reality is that there are very few executions. Certainly not enough for the numbers to be nothing more than a rounding error in consolidated criminal statistics.

Morally, I take issue with some of the posters. They make a moral state that it would turn us into barbarians or that we would be not better then they.

As far as I am concerned, the individual who commits a crime that is so heinous as to deserve 20 years in prison is in my eyes a rabid wolf who needs to be put down. Are all people equal? Absolutely not. If the individual were like you or I then these moral arguements would carry weight. But things are not the same. It is their 'difference' that makes them treated 'differently'.

I can't help but to see their arguement sliding into pacificism. If murderers are not worthy of death then who is? What about foreign nations bent on subjugating our population? Are we allowed to defend ourselves? When is it ok to kill?

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM

Why execute people? Just give them some facts and turn Bobert loose on them. They will beg for a swift execution after being subjected to his violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:43 AM

This thread is more about Mudcat than it is the death penalty, some things never change.Fuck Tookie, he should have been done in a long time ago, but don't worry, his legacy will go on, his descendants will still require murder as a rite of passage, they will still recruit by force, they will still terrify entire cities and they will still supply drugs to children, not to mention how they treat their "Bitches". So I won't cry for this scumbag murderer, until he cries for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:44 AM

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

The world will not end up toothless and blind. Only the victims and the criminals.

I don't think Tookie said any prayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:01 AM

a resurection? could it be?