BS: The coming war with Iran?

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:57 PM

Parties who had existing agendas for going to go to war against Iraq (balance of power, oil, etc.), were saying that it would take a "Pearl Harbor type event" to convince the US to to wage such a war. Then, conveniently, 9/11 happened, and the US went to war against Iraq.

Now, we have people saying it will take major terrorist attacks on Europe to get them to help out with a war against Iran.

Based on that, I think we can safely assume that the people with long-standing agendas for going to war against Iran (balance of power, oil, etc.) will now arrange for such terrorist attacks to conveniently take place in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:57 PM

I've been packing. I do need to take a break now and then, however.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:01 PM

Yes, individual people everywhere vary greatly, but what about the overall educational system in a country, and how it propagandizes the young to believe in war?

I have been in both the American and Canadian school systems. I know from firsthand experience that the former emphasizes and glorifies extreme patriotic militarism, while the latter barely focuses on it at all.

That's what I'm talking about.

American political candidates feel compelled to flash their military credentials in order to get elected...they all pretend to be "John Wayne" totin' a gun and wearin' a badge and gittin' ready to fight the "bad guys". Canadian politicians simply don't do that at all. Never. Nada.

It's a basic difference in psychology that goes very deep. Aggressive military messianic nationalistic systems use the public schools to indoctrinate the young to fight in future wars. Germany did it. Rome did it. Great Britain did it in the Empire days. I saw that done bigtime in the USA. I have never seen it done in Canada. You would not find it done in Sweden, Holland, present-day Spain, Italy, etc... You would definitely see it done in Israel and Iran. That's what I'm talking about. It's not a case in those counries of "if we have a war"...it's "when we have the NEXT war..."

That's what I am referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:20 PM

"I've been packing. I do need to take a break now and then, however."

I know exactly what you mean ... I'm the world's greatest procrastinator when it comes to packing and whatever.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:25 PM

Well ... with the Americans I personally know, the Americans I hear on various news channels, read about in periodicals there is evidince that an awful lot are not all piss and vinegar when it come to war monging and military mind propaganda ... I'd say the Yankee educational system is failing when it comes to your analogy.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:25 PM

Most of the packing is done. But I do need to get some laundry done.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:29 PM

well there ya go Carol ... go and complete the laundry.

Then you can come back to all this spinning debates, arguments and last but least exchange of knowledge and thoughts.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:32 PM

I'm making my lunch. The oil is getting hot in the pan for the eggs. I've still got a minute or two to shoot the breeze with you. And also while I'm eating.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:47 PM

So Carol ... when are ya moving exactly?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:50 PM

Sunday. Tomorrow we load the U-haul.

Ok. I'm off to do laundry.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:53 PM

Good.

Have a smooth, save move.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:57 PM

Thanks, number 6.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:08 PM

some points - I knew a few Iranians when I lived in Tokyo a number of years ago as well as some here in Canada. The one thing they all pretty much stated was that the young people of Iran represented a real threat to the ruling theocracy. Ie. They would go surreptitiously go on dates (pretending they were brother and sister) or have drinking parties in the country (hide the alcohol in orange juice etc) they were taking risks, but the point is that the population of Iran is quite different from the young revolutionaries when the Shah was overthrown 25 years ago. Iran is still a dictatorship, but are the Mullah

Teribus, I wouldnt be so cocky about US military capability,
currently they dont have any response to the Russian SHKVAL torpedo, a
supercavitating torpedo which can go 230mph underwater by creating a gas bubble in front of it. (a malfunction in one of these reportedly brought down the Kursk)

not that Iran necessarily has one, but a Canadian agent was able to secure one for the West a few years ago (much to Putins Chagrin)

as far as the the US navy's ability to detect intrusions, wasnt there an Iraqi fishing boat that collided with a carrier a couple of years ago. Seems a bit too close to me.

as far as Chinas willingness to dump US treasury bills, a drop in the value of the US dollar would hurt CHina as well since their currency is still pegged to it. On the other hand many nations are quietly moving their savings out of US funds, since they are apprehensive about the deepest deficit of any country in history. And it's beginning to appear that the reason that Bush and his advisors say that deficits dont matter anymore is because they can devalue the dollar as he did in 04' and Nixon did in 71 and pass on the cost to the rest of the world.

see here coming war with iran
I should say that a bit of this article is over the top, with the current international mood on Iran its unlikely we will switch trading oil from US dollars to Euros, but there are some valid points about
the power of the US dollar, it was not that long ago that Pounds sterling were the International currency of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM

Is it just me? Or does the recent counterpoint in this thread -- packing the U-haul, heating oil to cook some eggs and planning house move threading a fine harmony against the (perhaps) basso profundo of international war, nuclear threats and conspiracies to slaughter humans strike anyone else as, well, a bit bizarre? Perhaops dissonant?

A

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Kaleea
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:22 PM

In the 70's, on the heels of the Viet Nam war--oops, I forget, was it a police action or a conflict?---anyhoo, as a civilian working as Choir director for Army chapels, I saw the training begin for desert war down at Ft. Sill, OK, the field artillery training facility for the for the Army at the time. I saw some strange looking vehicles, & one motorpool feller was telling me all about the new vehicles being made for desert warfare. Very exciting stuff. (?)
I eventually asked the Col. at the chapel what he thought about it all. (this was about '77 or 78 ish. When this fellow made general someone told me he was the youngest man so far in the US Army to do so. A good, moral family man who did not relish war, having seen a few tours in Nam.) He said that the next big war would be probably start in Afghanistan & Iraq, move into surrounding areas out to North Korea & it would lead to WWIII, unless the world leaders at the (future) time got serious about reigning in the religious extremists around the world.
Let me emphasize that I am paraphrasing what he said, & these are not my judgements for or against any particular peoples.
   Several months before Geo. the 1st attacked Kuwait, I was in Oklahoma & I saw alot of those same strange looking vehicles plus wierd things I'd never seen, in really wierd color camo, being transported south via train. The words of that Col. flashed in my mind. Then, months later, when I saw the war live on the news, I knew that the (then) Col. had some idea of the truth.
   Now I wonder if those world leaders exhist who can reign in the religious extremists of the planet-be they East or the West.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:18 PM

I don't give a flying fig about who's posting from where, or when. If you don't find some credibility in the two links posted, you're living in a cave. I ain't sayin' it's a foregone conclusion. Just enough credibiltiy to make it read like a possible, if not likely, scenario.

As I said before, one hopes that the current world-leaders (including Mr. BUSH) will consider these possibilities. I ain't so sure!

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM

OK all right already, do we nuke them first or not?!

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:29 PM

Just for the record the Provisional Irish Republican Army will take no part in this war. Sorry if you don't understand this but, the usual anti Irish suspects came in on the Abu Hamza Guilty thread for a bit of paddy bashing, no doubt they will arrive here to. Just thought it best to get first shout in.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:48 PM

Thanks Divis .... those culprits will most likely be here soon. So ya better get out now before the real bizarre posts start happening. That's what I'm gonna do.

Amos ... I'm pleased you found that little interlude of harmony and civility pleasing in this debate of world apocalyptic events. I certainly did.

Now my proposal for the solution is that the western world just surrender now ... give up all it's assets in the middle east, let the law of Islam rule the courts of our nations (sorry girls and connoisseurs of pork and liquor but there has to be some sacrifces made). As to the state of Israel, either they too surrendor, or may God have mercy on them.

That's my 2 cents of contributions to this thread.

adios
sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:22 PM

Is "nuking people first" a policy you would applaud in someone else, Guest? Someone who is not an ally?

I thought not.

It's amazing how people can rationally justify the most awful things in their own minds, the most criminal acts, as long as they propose doing them to someone else, isn't it?

What would the USA have thought of someone else (other than the Anglo nations) who, in 1945, dropped A-bombs on cities? Who burned out Dresden? "War criminals!" is what they would have thought. Well, they would have been quite right about that.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:28 PM

Is it just me? Or does the recent counterpoint in this thread -- packing the U-haul, heating oil to cook some eggs and planning house move threading a fine harmony against the (perhaps) basso profundo of international war, nuclear threats and conspiracies to slaughter humans strike anyone else as, well, a bit bizarre? Perhaops dissonant?

Totally, Amos. But isn't that how it always is in war?

Now my proposal for the solution is that the western world just surrender now ... give up all it's assets in the middle east, let the law of Islam rule the courts of our nations (sorry girls and connoisseurs of pork and liquor but there has to be some sacrifces made). As to the state of Israel, either they too surrendor, or may God have mercy on them.

Nah... we just need to stop interfering in other countries attempts to get on with their lives. And that's what Israel needs to do as well. As long as we keep putting the bulk of our resources into creating mayhem and instability in other people's countries, the results of those efforts will keep coming back to bite us on the ass.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: jaze
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 07:22 PM

Amos, I like your scenario far better. There's always hope sane minds will prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 07:37 PM

There is no sanity when you are dealing with a 7th century mentality.

Like I said, it will end up as us or them.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:29 PM

If religious leaders cause the trouble, get rid of the religious leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:53 PM

You will also have to get rid of the corporate leaders and the politicians, because a whole lot of this is driven by money. What if we got rid of our massive dependency on oil by more actively seeking other energy sources? That might help a lot.

I agree though, that the crazy religious leaders are a very big part of the problem. No question about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:20 PM

"You will also have to get rid of the corporate leaders and the politicians, because a whole lot of this is driven by money"

Yeah, then we would be out of our jobs, for those who have jobs. Then we would have no more medicare or social services. In short our infrastructure that we have come to luv so much will disappear, and admit it we do luv it and are used to it, sitting here on our computer systems connected to a high speed service, munchin on our granny smith apples that have been imported from some other place on the continent, listening to one of our favourite cds that has been manufactured in some high tech plastics company on our Japanese sound systems manufacured somewhere in the Orient by a low paid worker more than likely living in a totalatarian government. Yes,nice and comfy, well entertained, our bellies full, safe and sound in our relatively civilized society that is realtively free with everything at our disposal. Ya know something I aint complaining about the life we live here. Sure, it has it's faults and there certainly is room for improvement, and ya know what, most of the non free world would love to have our lives.

sIx

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:27 PM

Whoa! Let me be more clear, then. I love having my life here, Number 6! I don't mean get rid of ALL corporate CEOs and politicians en masse, I mean get rid of the specific ones who have sold their souls for money and value their payoffs over and above the lives and welfare of their own citizenry...and people elsewhere. Prosecute those CEOs, and vote out those politicians.

Of course, it's only a pleasant fantasy. Similar to the pleasant fantasy of getting rid of all the crazy religious leaders.

We wish...

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:31 PM

I know L.H. exactly what you meant .... just me rantin on again at the keyboard.

Those crazy religeous leaders I think are the root of all the evil and pain.

I wish everyone could be as rich as us, and I certainly do not mean in the economical sense .... just rich in the goodness we have ... and what we can share.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:39 PM

As a registered Republican (albeit not one who supported either W or his daddy), I would like to state my view. Based on Bush's track record leading up to the Iraq war, as well as his conduct since, I hope that this time Congress insists that Bush come to them for a declaration of war. Then I hope Congress turns him down. If he then attacks Iran despite that, he and Cheney should be impeached, convicted, and removed from office. Then he should be sent back to Crawford TX, to run for dogcatcher--and lose. Then he and Cheney should start their community service emptying bedpans in VA hospitals, about 80 hours per week--- (there will obviously be more soldiers in those hospitals---for the rest of their born days.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:50 PM

I think that one of two things will have to happen regarding Iran.

1) The present leader will have to fall down some stairs and break his neck and then be replaced by someone with a brain.

2) Iran will have to be 'invaded', although not with land troops. (If you thought that Vietnam was a quagmire, try having a good look at Iran's geography. See Google maps, and then give a thought to the USSR in Afghanistan.)

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 12:54 AM

Here's to the day when young Iran gives the mullahs the boot, and parties in the town square wearing the screaming bright colors Iranians love, belly dancing (They're great belly dancers.) and washing down gaz (An Iranian sweet, not unlike Turkish Taffy.) with soda pop.
I don't think dubyah is going to get us into a war with Iran, because he knows it would be too expensive, and we won't have the manpower without a draft, and if he institutes that draft, he will lose a good deal of his support. I think he's rattling his saber to distract us from his innumerable mistakes. It ain't gonna work George!

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 03:24 AM

"...he will lose a good deal of his support."

At this stage of the game, I don't think he cares about being supported. He doesn't have to be popular. He has a couple of years to continue his economic coup and then he is set for life and then some.

I too, would like to see a return of Persian Pride but its not enough to overthrow the mullahs, you have to have someone to take their place. Someone who will reject the Arab style of politics. Someone who will give a homeland to the Kurds. Someone who will be strong enough to stand up to Israel.

Thats a pretty tall order.

Maybe thats why the Mullahs are in power for the time being.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:17 PM

from another thread...


Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:16 PM

Defense News 12/16/05
By Agence France-Presse, Berlin

Iran has bought 18 BM-25 missiles from North Korea which the Islamic Republic wants to transform to extend their range, the German press reported Dec 16. "Iran has bought 18 disassmbled BM-25 missiles from North Korea with a range of 2500 kilometers ( 1553 miles)," Bild newspaper said, citing a report from German secret services.

It added that Iran's ultra-conservative President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wants to have the range of the missiles "extended to 3500 kilometers". The newspaper said that until now Iran only had Shehab-3 missiles with a range of 1300 kilometers.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:58 PM

Yes, like any country that expects to be attacked (example: Israel) they seek a deterrent capability. But they're evil and insane, so we can't allow them a deterrent capability such as we allow ourselves, can we? (being a little satirical there...)

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 06:57 AM

LH,

So the comment by the head of government that another country should be destroyed is ok? The UN is the one that Iraq signed the treaty with, to NOT seek nuclear weapons. Israel is a member of the UN- Iraq is in effect declaring war on the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 07:22 AM

Little Hawk - 14 Feb 06 - 05:58 PM

"Yes, like any country that expects to be attacked (example: Israel) they seek a deterrent capability. But they're evil and insane, so we can't allow them a deterrent capability such as we allow ourselves, can we?"

In stating the above why not mention that Israel were not signatories to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and as such are not bound by any of its terms or conditions (Same applies to India & Pakistan). Iran on the other hand was a signatory and is bound by those terms and conditions. It has not met its obligations under the terms of the treaty and now has a head of state that wishes to see an country that the UN recognises "Wiped from map". As science cannot dis-invented the nuclear powers at the time of the signing of the treaty were allowed to keep their weapons and were to engage in the process of disarmament. There were at that time five nuclear powers, the USA and the USSR started the disarming process, but this was halted when first India then Pakistan announced that they too had nuclear weapons.

There is no double standard with regard to Iran having nuclear weapons, please do not try to portray the situation as it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 09:21 AM

Little Hawk said that there were three countries (Iran, USA, and Israel) most likely to use a nuclear weapon pre-emprively.

I would like to add a few more names to the list:
North Korea-   How can anyone seriously leave them out of that list
Al Queda
Syria
Russia
China
Palestinians under Hamas
Somalia
Pakistan
India
Saudi Arabia
Libia
Venezueala
Cuba
Phillipines
And the beat goes on.

Even if someof these countries don't have nuclear capability today, they will have it in the future, or will have the ability to buy nuclear weapons from brokers or terrorists.   Unfortunately, there are many nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union that are unnacounted for.   And the beat goes on.

Waiting for Iran to overthrow their government (as Amos suggested) was the same stretegy that Bush 41 used with Iraq.   Intelligence said that Sadaam was weakened and would be overthrown by his people.   We see how well that strategy worked out.   It is nice to see however, how Amos and Bush 41 are on the same page.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 11:41 AM

You really want to disarm the Middle East? The whole messy lot of them without firing a shot? Here's how.

STOP BUYING THEIR OIL. It's that simple.

Build a big collection of nuclear reactors around the coast, and alot of Hydrolysis plants. You've now got electricty and Hydrogen to run surface transport. You get serious about this, engineers should be able to get fusion reactors working remarkably soon. It should be cleaner and cheaper.

We're pouring money into the area like oil onto flames, and with much the same effect.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 12:19 PM

IRAN: consequences of a war

An air attack on Iran by Israeli or US forces would be aimed at setting back Iran's nuclear
programme by at least five years. A ground offensive by the United States to terminate the regime
is not feasible given other commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan, and would not be attempted....
One key response from Iran would be a determination to reconstruct a nuclear programme
and develop it rapidly into a nuclear weapons capability, with this accompanied by withdrawal
from the Non-Proliferation Treaty. This would require further attacks. A military operation against
Iran would not, therefore, be a short-term matter but would set in motion a complex and long-lasting
confrontation. It follows that military action should be firmly ruled out and alternative strategies
developed....
While Israel would gain in the short term from an attack on Iran, the longer-term consequences would
be far less positive.

(from a research group who had been quite good in predicting the outcome of the Iraq war)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 12:31 PM

I'd agree with you on some of those, Larry K. Not all, but some of them. I think North Korea, for example, has those bombs for defensive purposes, as it would be totally asinine and suicidal of them to think of attacking anyone with them first. On the other hand, it is fairly unlikely that anyone will attack them now, since they apparently have a few nukes to fire off in that scenario.

I've been to Cuba, and I think it is almost inconceivable that the Cubans would imperil themselves by being the first to fire a nuke at somebody. What would be the point? Useless and again, suicidal. If they had nukes already, though, it would certainly make other people less likely to invade them, wouldn't it?

Al Queda? You betcha! I agree with you there. Since Al Queda is not technically located anywhere specific that can easily be targeted accurately, they would be delighted to hit someone with a nuke.

India and Pakistan. Yeah, possibly...

Anyway, haven't got time to go through them all right now.

I've read a lot of stuff on the Net about Iran, and it's interesting how totally divergent the opinions are (depending on what axe the writer wants to grind). People are so prejudiced and subjective...how does one know who is telling the truth?

Some insist that Iran IS trying to make nuclear-grade Uranium. Others say that Iran is merely trying to make enriched Uranium such as is required to fuel their reactor, to generate electrical power, and they DO have a legal right to do that, do they not? And why shouldn't they?

As I am not there, am not a nuclear scientist, and do not know who is telling the final truth about it, I have no way of knowing if all this hoopla is real...or if it's just the propaganda runup to launching Bush's or Israel's next war of convenience.

I don't know. You don't know. None of us know. We just have our opinions, and our opinions are governed by our prejudices, which are in many cases extreme prejudices.

Yes, the president of Iran has said inflammatory things about wiping Israel off the map. So have any number of other Muslim personages in many countries. It's what their constituency likes to hear. So what? Does Iran actually have a capability to seriously threaten Israel? I don't think so, because Israel can obliterate them with a massive nuclear response, and they know it. Pancho does not rob the train when the train is carrying 1,000 well-armed soldiers with gatling guns and Pancho has a gang of 30 men with rifles.

What Iran can do, if it someday has a few nukes, is deter the USA and Israel from directly attacking Iran. The USA and Israel don't like being deterred, because they would rather be free to attack whom they please, whenever they please, with no real risk of serious loss in return...like shooting fish in a barrel.

Like Iraq and Serbia and Afghanistan.

I am suspicious that this is just another manufactured propaganda exercise, like the old and now discredited one about Iraq's nonexistent WMD.

If I was the Iranians, I would be almost 100% sure that I was going to be attacked shortly, and I would be desperate to get nuclear weapons ASAP just to deter that attack.

But if I was Israel, I'd probably be so paranoid by now as to feel that it was necessary to attack Iran immediately to forestall that from ever happening...

Sounds like a no-win situation to me. When you've got 2 sets of people who both think the other is insane, ungodly, treacherous, and totally murderous, how do you get them to deal fairly and honestly with one another?

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:19 PM

What Iran can do, if it someday has a few nukes, is deter the USA and Israel from directly attacking Iran.

No. A few nukes are not a deterent. Lotsa nukes are a deterent.

"The Wasteland"

Shoot the Iranian idiot now and stop a nuclear exchange. That's your option. Kill one asshole now or kill lotsa people later. Your call.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:55 PM

The one guy you kill now would most likely be replaced by another similar "bad guy" soon enough, as long as the unresolved disputes go on. And why is it that we countenance murder so easily in ourselves, but not in others?

How would you react if the president of the USA or the leader of Israel were assassinated by Muslims? Or if a Muslim posted here, suggesting that that would be a good and desirable thing to do?

What makes you that special, that the moral rules regarding premeditated murder don't apply to you? What makes you so good? Is God on your side? ;-) Can you prove it?

You may be right that a few nukes is not a viable deterrent (to the USA). If so, we can eventually expect a war in Korea, I suppose. It will benefit no one, if it comes.

I think a few nukes, as long as they're mounted on a deliverable weapons system, would be a viable deterrent to Israel lauching a first strike, though, simply because Israel is in a very small geographical area. They could not afford even one or two nuclear explosions within their own borders, could they?

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 03:15 PM

Your logic is falling apart.

If Israel wanted to first-strike the bastards they would have done so already. Recall the Syrian nuclear reactor at Osiraq.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 03:21 PM

They have done so already, when they attacked the Iraqi facilities.

But I am not offering cut and dried solutions here or saying I have the answers...I am simply discussing an infernally complicated mess.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 03:21 PM

If you dont want a war with iran, kill off their leadership now

the sooner the better

because if you leave their command structures in place you allow them time to organize themselves and thus cause further loss to your own troops

it is foolish to think you can reason with them

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 03:34 PM

I think you can reason with almost anyone when it comes to sheer pragmatism. You lay your cards on the table, and state your position. It works better than insults and threats.

However, assuming you are correct in your strategy, how would you propose to kill off their leaders? They were (presumably) trying to kill or capture Saddam too, and it took a full scale invasion and months of searching for him afterwards.

They probably feel the same way you do... "you can't reason with those people". That's the kind of one-sided thinking that always drives these vicious disputes.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 08:54 PM

how's this: No, asshole, you can't have weapons of mass destruction because we thing you are mad enough to use them

try to get some and you will be shot

get some and you'll wake up dead

try to use some and your country will disappear

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 09:30 PM

Quite aside from the double standard problem ("I'm sane and good...you aren't...therefore I will kill you if you try to arm yourself against me in anything like an equal fashion.").............now, who would react well to a line like that coming from an already established deadly enemy? LOL! Would you?

But quite aside from that...what they are presently doing is enriching small amounts of Uranium to fuel a nuclear reactor to make electric power. There is no proof whatsoever that they are building A-bombs, nor is there any proof suggesting they can. They would need much more highly enriched Uranium in far larger amounts to build bombs. They are estimated to have a mere fraction of the centrifuges required for such an effort.

You cannot justify killing an entire country for making fuel for a nuclear reactor when the NPT gives them the legal right to do so! Which it does.

You have established a Catch-22, just like was done with Saddam. You want the Iranians to prove that something doesn't exist. If it doesn't, how will they prove it to those who don't care about proof? Saddam did not have the WMD. I doubt the Iranians do either, and I don't think they're anywhere near it.

However, I may be wrong. Are you willing to admit also that you may be wrong?

If so, you are contemplating killing a lot of people over doing what they already have the legal right to under the NPT, and what is no threat to anyone...using a nuclear power plant to provide electricity.

This may be another snow job to set the stage for a war, just like the phony Iraqi baby-killing story from the first Gulf War, just like the phony WMD scare from the 2nd Iraq war.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 10:05 PM

The countries that have nukes have not used them--excepting the US in 1945. The Israelis have had nukes for over 20 years. They haven't used them. More people having nukes increases the likelihood that one of the new 'players' will get 'offensive' with them and then lotsa people will start to use nukes. If I have a choice to trust Israel and the US with nukes or to trust Iran with nukes--there is no question who I will trust. My preference is that there be none of the goddamned things on the planet.

Iran's leader has already shown himself to be a crackpot. He has already advocated mass murder. What is there to reason with? And why? The fucker should become one with the Earth. Soonest, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: The coming war with Iran?
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 11:35 PM

Whoooeee, we're all gonna die!