BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:35 PM

Right on Robo, there's not enough of us calling out the Jew haters for what they are - too many pussies on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:41 PM

"The oppressed know one another" was a comment from an old Irish friend of my mother.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:53 AM

"The wicked flee when none pursue."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:17 AM

Jim Carroll - 14 Oct 16 - 02:06 PM

"Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership." {Keith A of Hertford}

Then you lied Keith - there are no reports of their doing so - you certainly have not provided any proof of their having done this - but please feel free to prove you have."

Labour MP John Mann and Alex Chambers, the co-chairman of Oxford University Labour Club certainly did and that resulted in Baroness Royall's Inquiry.

"Even if this were the case, there was nothing to stop them from going to the press or the pro-Israeli organisations some of them are part of."

The story was covered by the media and the Oxford University Jewish Society made comment on the subject {Note that Jim "Jewish Society" not the Oxford University pro-Israeli Society}

Care to tell us all how going to anyone other than Labour Party would get their concerns acted upon?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 04:06 AM

So - there you go.
Keith has invented a scenario describing a plot by the Jewish members of the Labour Party having claimed the Party of having a serious problem of Antisemitism, then refusing to make that Antisemitism public because of their loyalty to that party.
He has not produced a shred of evidence of that plot, nor will he - it doesn't exist.
The Jewish people I knew - some of them Labour Party members, would never have put their name to such a cover up - I don't believe any self-respecting Jew would.
Keith has made this up to cover up the fact that he is unable to describe the Antisemitism that he claims infects Labour.
Nothing daunted - his two 'defenders of the Jewish People' buddies have stood valiantly by his antisemitic smear of the Jewish Labour members - why wouldn't they?
Their interest is not in the welfare of The Jewish People - it is in supporting the extremist, right-wing Israeli regime.   
THESE THREE HEROES HAVE MADE THEIR CASE
This whole episode given us a perfect answer to the question asked by title of this thread.
Antisemitism is the denigration of and discrimination of the Jews as a people - not of the Israelis - THE JEWS.
Of course antisemitism exists in the Labour party - there is hardly an institution or community n the world where it doesn't exist.
Far from it being a problem in the Labour Party, it is less likely to be one in a party which was created by humanitarian and socially conscious people, many of who were Jews fleeing from the pogroms of the 19th century - a party which is dedicated to anti-racism and anti sectarianism.
The 'Antisemitism' that Labour may be guilty of is the type that has been re-invented by the Israeli regime to protect itself from the consequences of the crimes it has committed against the Palestinian people - THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
What we do know about this whole affair is that the bulk of the accusers are connected with the at least $26m propaganda campaign to prevent the boycott – that is what this "antisemitim" accusation is about.
Sure – some of the less scrupulous right were happy to join in the kicking match to oppose Corbyn, but all the evidence points to the Anti BDS campaign.
Antisemitism is on the rise again – hardly surprising when the Israeli regime has chosen to hide behind the Jewish People to justify its Human Rights abuses and war crimes – some opponents of that regime are bound to pick up on that cowardly defence and blame the Jews for what the Israeli administration is doing.
The losers in all of this have been both the Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed and the Jewish people who have been targetted by being implicated that cleansing by the ISRAELI FASCISTS
And we have three keen supporters of that targetting campaign.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:04 AM

Steve,
I have not accused anyone of conspiring to do anything. You are trolling.

You claimed that a "pro-Israel lobby" was inventing the anti-Semitism issue to discredit the Labour Party, and were also influencing governments.
The would hardly achieve that by working individually and alone.
They would have to conspire.
I described your position accurately. No trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:06 AM

"Wow, you guys, someone look up "Jew-baiting". This thread is odoriferous."
By th way Robo - the offr I made to Bobad, which he has not taken up, is extended to you or anybody sharing your views.
If you can produce a shred of evidence of my attacking The Jewish People I am happy to make a generous donation to a charity of your choice.
I'm happy to bet that Keith would not care to make that offer, given his Labour Party 'Jewish pact of silence'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:11 AM

Jim,
"Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership."
Then you lied Keith - there are no reports of their doing so

Then how did the leadership know about it Jim?
See T's post.

Kevin,
criticising people or organisatiins for supporting Israel may be so described, in the where these are Jewish. At any rate that seems to be the basis for many of the accusations we have heard in the case of the Labour Party.

No it is not. Anti-Semitism has nothing to do with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:49 AM

You are both lying and trolling now, Keith. Joining in with your silly games is beneath my dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 08:31 AM

Jim Carroll gives an excellent example of the new anti-Semitism when he refers to any Jewish Society or organisation as pro-Israeli.

By the way Carroll pro-Israeli what? Pro-Israeli people? Pro-Israeli Government? You don't seem to be very specific.

Worked out how to dig a mass grave with a bulldozer yet? And do you still think that a "Fascist State" is one that puts the requirements of the people before the requirements of the state?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:02 AM

"By the way Carroll pro-Israeli what? Pro-Israeli people"
The word "regime" gives a clue - read what I write - I've used it 15 times on this thread.
Specific enough for me.
Still no description of the "antisemitism" and still no explanation of the 'Jewish pact of silence"
If it quacks, it's probably a duck, if someone talks about Jewish plots, they are probably antisemites, as are those who support him.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:03 AM

"Jim Carroll gives an excellent example of the new anti-Semitism when he refers to any Jewish Society or organisation as pro-Israeli."

That is an ambiguous sentence. A)On the one hand it could be that he is accused of saying that any Jewish organisation, by virtue of being Jewish must automatically be "pro-Israel". B)On the other hand it could be he is accused of saying that there are Jewish organisation that pro-Israel.

A) could indeed fairly be described as tending towards antisemitism, on certain definitions of what "pro-Israel" means - though it is a claim that has often been made by Israeli voices.

B) is self evidently true, and is not an antisemitic thing to say.

There is also the question of what "pro Israel" means. Criticism of Israel is in no way incomptable with being essentially supportive of the people of Israel, including criticisms which might challenge the very legitimacy of the confessional State of Israel.

Once again, it is not relevant in this context to argue whether the criticisms of whatever sort are justified, or what are the merits of various possible options. The point is, none of these differences about Israel or about who may or may not support what options are in any way relevant to the charge of antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:03 AM

I've always been pro-Israel. I condemn people who call for Israel to be wiped off the map. Whatever our take on the history, we are, as they say, where we are, and it behoves us to try to promote the wellbeing and security of the eight million people, all of them, Jews and non-Jews, who live there, by now almost all of them BORN there, lest we forget. No-one chooses where to get born. I believe that arguing against settlements, against an apartheid wall, against constant bellicose incursions into neighbouring territories and against the blatant discrimination against minorities, that I am condemning the regime but supporting the ordinary Israeli citizens, because I'm arguing for solutions, which may well involve compromises, that will eventually increase that wellbeing and security. When I talk about pro-Israel lobbies, I'm talking about organisations who actively support or promote the policies of the regime in Israel. I am not talking about Jews. There are plenty of non-Jews in pro-Israel lobby groups. They will tell you that they are supporting the Israeli people, but what they are actually doing is arguing for the perpetuation of hostilities between Israel and its neighbours by supporting the injustices that take place in the country. AIPAC in particular, which hovers like a hawk over US politicians, makes sure that there will be no meaningful peace talks because they do not recognise any need for compromises. And why would they, when the US provides three billion dollars' worth of military aid per annum with absolutely no conditions attached. All that aid for a country of eight million. Feeling secure must be long way off for most Israelis. One day they'll look at their own regime and see why.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM

"That is an ambiguous sentence. A)On the one hand it could be that he is accused of saying that any Jewish organisation, by virtue of being Jewish must automatically be "pro-Israel". "
Which is why I have specified the present regime
I don't believe there are Jewish organisations that are pro-Israel - I believe there are some Jews who support what i happening in Israel and others who don't.
I know for a fact that the Israel regime has present a huge amount of money in order to offset criticism of its actions regarding the Palestinians, and I also know that one of the tactics has been to expand the definition of "antisemitism" to include criticism of its own policy - that has been openly stated often enough.
Terms like "pro-Israel" are a shortcut - I have stated my attitude to the existence of the State of Israel and my own family history in supporting that State - and my own experience through my own personal contact with politically inclined Jewish people - this is why I become angry when I am accused of being antisemitic, especially by somebody who adopts the coward stance of Bobad, who refuses to respond to why I and others say, but just pours out his vitriolic accusations from his position of anonymity.
When push comes to shove, the "Jewish" side of this argument is immaterial; as far as I am concerned, the proven behaviour of the Israeli regime would be unacceptable if anybody were to adopt it.
Making that behaviour "Jewish", as they have, has, as far as I am concerned, have added their own antisemitism to the equation.
I'm totally with my near mother-in-law, a Holocaust survivor (who I knew within 20 years of her ordeal) - "Never again - not to anybody".
As much as he and I differed on some points, I will remind people of Mike Grosvenor Myers (MtheGM), summing up of his own feeling, as a Jew, of what he felt about what happened to Israel - one of his last postings to this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:53 AM

Steve,
You are both lying and trolling now, Keith. Joining in with your silly games is beneath my dignity.

I have not lied.
You claimed that a "pro-Israel lobby" was inventing the anti-Semitism issue to discredit the Labour Party, and were also influencing governments.

I can provide quotes.

There are plenty of non-Jews in pro-Israel lobby groups.
Not many actually.

Jim,

If it quacks, it's probably a duck, if someone talks about Jewish plots, they are probably antisemites, as are those who support him.

What about someone who talk about "pro-Israel lobby" plots, and those who support him Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 11:54 AM

Just go away. Your input into this thread is so below the standard required for proper discussion that it would be unbelievable coming from anyone except you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

would be unbelievable coming from anyone except you.

Well, there is Bubo, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:53 PM

"I can provide quotes."
You always say this - you never do.
"You claimed that a "pro-Israel lobby" was inventing the anti-Semitism issue to discredit the Labour Party,"
If there was antisemitism in the Labour Party to any great degree, we would know exactly what it was.
You took it further than anybody I have ever come across by claiming a pact of silence by Jewish members of the Party - that is purely your own invention.
Not only is that antisemitic, but it is a clear indication that your concern is for an extremist right-wing regime and not for the Jewish people as a whole.
You are not going to walk past this one - not ever.
So far, the "antisemitism is only criticism of Israeli regime's behaviour towards the Palestinians - making the entire world antisemitic.
The links between the pro-Israeli propaganda campaign and these accusations have been clearly established.
Are you seriously suggesting that "pro-Israeli plots" is antisemitic?
The Israel's are not The Jews - any Jew who gets in their way is branded as "self hating".
I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS in full, without selectivity and without your usual attempts at distortion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:02 PM

Steve, I am going nowhere.
You said I was lying, but you said exactly what I stated you did.
Perhaps you wish you had not said it.

Claiming such conspiracies is classic anti-Semitism straight out of the Protocols of Zion.

You claim that Western democracies are in the grip of these "lobbyists." You claim they have the US government in a" cast iron grip."
What leverage do they have Steve?
Is it from their control of the economy, the banks and the media?

It is not anti-Semitic to criticise Israel, but you have to be suspicious of those who only and always criticise Israel, while ignoring far worse rights abusers all around.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

Jim,
claiming a pact of silence by Jewish members of the Party -

Not claimed by me. They reported it to the leadership who did make it public, instigating two much reported enquiries, and it was discussed by the NEC who were reported as saying how appalled they all were.
Smeeth has spoken to the press and the media.

The links between the pro-Israeli propaganda campaign and these accusations have been clearly established.

You mean they conspired to invent it, so I do not need to provide quotes to prove that you and Steve claim that!

You always say this - you never do. (produce quotes)

I have often pointed out that decent democracies know that all the stuff about Israeli atrocities and war crimes is just lying propaganda

Steve explained that fact thus,
"The main reason we have this facade of "friendly relations" with Israel is the disproportionate influence of the pro-Israel lobby" (28August, 6.11}

So he claims they conspire to influence governments, as I said.

Also, " a US that's in the cast iron grip of its pro-Israel lobby then" (28August 9.39)

I asked him several times what leverage they had, but he would not answer.

I expect it is their control of banks and the media.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:37 PM

As that Israeli minister said, it is no longer acceptable to accuse Jews of manipulating governments by their control of the banks and the media.

Steve and Jim only claim that our governments are manipulated by "the pro-Israel lobby," so that is all right then.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:56 PM

"Not claimed by me. "
Who else?"You mean they conspired to invent it, "
Prove it.
a reminder of exactly what you said
"I also believe they want it dealt within the Party to which they have devoted most of their lives."
"I have often pointed out that decent democracies "
One of your more pathetic efforts - we believe the silence of politicians rather than human rights groups, medical staff and independent witnesses - pathetic and a dishonest way to score points.
And you produce none now - what more proof do you need
Second and last chance - who has ever suggested that the Jewish group within the Labour Party has taken a vow of silence - apart from yourself?
I don't know how you have the gall to accuse somebody of Antisemitism after you have claimed that the Jewish Parliamentarians - to a man and woman - have placed their Party above the interest of the Jewish People
You are a raving antisemite to make such a suggestion.
Where is your evidence for this claim?
Nobody here targets Israel for Ethnic or cultural reasons - nobdy her as claimed all mal British Jew are "implanted" with anything - unlike.... well, you get the point.
That other people commit atrocities is immaterial to this argument - you shed crocodile tears about the people of Homs and went on to defend Assad' being sold ammunition and equipment - and even proposed that it wuld be o.k. if that was all we sold him.
There is something very appalling to see victims of extreme atrocities then committing atrocities on others.
It is also galling when these same people target British politicians to prevent a boycott of their goods.
Now comes a lorra-lorra denials
Won't wash any more - you and your two stooges have blown it here - you are all a bunch of antisemites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 03:01 PM

Ha, ha, ha......this is epic.

(Los Angeles, October 14, 2016) -- StandWithUs is running an aerial advertisement at Desert Trip - a major music festival being held in Indio, California - with a message of peace and protest against the anti-Israel hate promoted by Roger Waters.

A plane will fly above the crowd during the musician's October 16th performance, with a lit banner that says "Support Israeli-Palestinian Peace, Not Hateful Boycotts". It will be visible from 9:30-10:30pm

StandWithUs CEO Roz Rothstein previously wrote in a statement to Rolling Stone, "Waters' history of racism includes projecting the Star of David (the universal symbol of the Jewish people) onto a pig during concerts, waxing conspiratorial about the "Jewish lobby" and making slanderous, dehumanizing statements about Israelis. Waters also wholly ignores violent racism against Israelis by Palestinian political and religious leaders, and whitewashes the murder of innocent civilians that follows this abhorrent incitement."

She noted that, "as a leading spokesperson for the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) Movement, Waters promotes an agenda that undermines hopes for a just peace between Israelis and Palestinians. BDS actively discourages cultural exchanges between the two peoples, effectively seeks to censor Israeli artists, and has been overwhelmingly condemned for promoting violations of academic freedom. BDS's ultimate goal is the elimination of Israel and the violation of Jewish rights to self-determination — just ask their co-founder, (Omar Barghouti) who has said that 'we oppose a Jewish state in any part of Palestine.' Indeed, the core of BDS is not reasoned criticism of Israeli policy, but rather the notion that Palestinians can't be free without turning the Jews back into a stateless people."

StandWithUs decided to run its aerial advertisement after reports that Waters used his first Desert Trip performance on October 9th to promote the anti-Israel boycott campaign.

Rothstein concluded that, "a better future for Israelis and Palestinians requires mutual recognition and mutual respect, not the bigotry and division that Waters is unfortunately perpetuating. We will continue to support justice, peace, and coexistence for all peoples in the region, and oppose destructive political interests that single out Israel, while hurting Israelis and Palestinians alike."

About StandWithUs

StandWithUs (SWU) is a fifteen year-old, international, non-profit Israel education organization. Through fellowships, conferences, materials, social media, educational films and missions to Israel, StandWithUs supports people around the world who want to educate their campuses and communities about Israel.

Based in Los Angeles, SWU has 18 chapters throughout the United States, in Israel, Canada, the U.K. and Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 03:14 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 15 Oct 16 - 09:03 AM

As someone who at times is more than a tad pedantic and semantic Kevin I would like to point out to you that Jim Carroll did not say pro-Israel he said pro-Israeli Now Israel is the State, an Israeli on the other hand is an inhabitant of the State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

The bloody meaningless waffle emanating from these three hateful desperados is just unbelievable. Why don't we just leave them to it? They lie, they cheat, they misrepresent. I've got better things to do than to spend seven-eighths of my time here putting them right and what's left of it trying to debate. Nice try, Kevin, but I tried to tell you that it was a waste of time. These threads will always be pointless until these three spiteful and nasty individuals are removed from this forum. But at least we tried, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:46 PM

I'd disagree with you on that point, Keith.

Israeli can indeed be a noun, referring to a single inhabitant of the country, with Israelis as the plural. It is similar in that way to Pakistani and Iraqi.

On the other hand it can be an adjective, referring to the nationality of a thing, an institution or person. Thus you have an Israeli government, an Israeli school, or an Israeli child, in the same way you have a French government, school or child.

I hope that's adequately semantic and pedantic...

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:20 PM

You may as well talk to a brick wall. They are not interested in your opinion. They use/abuse what you say to fuel their own grandstanded bigotry. I know they're not worth it. You can please yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:27 PM

That's it Kevin, just ignore him and maybe he'll go away, his whining is insufferable.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:40 PM

That's it Kevin, just ignore him and maybe he'll go away, his whining is insufferable.

As is yours, but to an even greater degree, Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:44 PM

I believe in playing the ball, rather than the man, Steve and Greg. I have no expectation or intention of trying to change the minds of people who may have made a point that I decide to address.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:49 PM

Then why the hell bother, Kevin? Ya can't educate pork.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 07:33 PM

Get my ideas sorted out. And of course the only people who read posts aren't the people who write them.

Pigs incidentally are very intelligent animals.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 07:58 PM

Pigs incidentally are very intelligent animals.

Definately moreso than several individuals here I could name.

My apologies to the porcine creation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 08:35 PM

It's very depressing, but screwed-up trolls such as Keith and bobad are always gleefully waiting in the wings to derail these threads. Reasonable discussion is not possible.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 08:45 PM

It can be difficult at times, but it is quite possible. The essential thing is to deal with the issue and avoid personal arguments - as Tony Benn said so frequently, and as Jeremy Corbyn has also said on many occasions.

Worrying about personal attacks is a complete waste of energy. And so is making them, even if they actually might be deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 11:32 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:06 AM

"Wow, you guys, someone look up "Jew-baiting". This thread is odoriferous."
By th way Robo - the offr I made to Bobad, which he has not taken up, is extended to you or anybody sharing your views.
If you can produce a shred of evidence of my attacking The Jewish People I am happy to make a generous donation to a charity of your choice.

Jim Carroll"


Jim: I do not think you need to make me such an offer nor do I need to engage it. The incredible capacity of the English language that we share makes this a subject that we can discuss with such great shadings that we can make convincing arguments from both sides of a divide without actually achieving anything or exchanging valid memes whatsoever.

I feel a certain gratitude to everyone on this thread, at least the first twenty posts or so, because whether or not I agree with 'em, I think they establish understandable points of view which are useful referents for me in future.

I am not qualified, either at present or most likely ever, to judge the various arguments about anti-semitism in the Labour Party, although before this thread came along, I'd read some New York Times references to the issue, and came away with the impression that there was something to it.

But anti-Semitism isn't illegal in the U.S. and it is an existing long-lived point of view. I'd rather it be out in the open than hidden with the easy modulations of terms like 'Restricted' as shown in the interesting American Post-War movie with Gregory Peck: "Gentlemen's Agreement", or the English(?) movie of the 70s "QBVII". You don't have to like Israel, Jews, Arabs, or anybody. It's a fact of life that Jews have lived with since Adam was a cowboy. There's even a Jewish joke about it: "Definition of an Anti-Semite- One who hates Jews more than absolutely necessary"
I think it would be nice if on one hand non-Jews understand that for Jews, anti-Semitism is an enormous body of thought that constitutes its own religion and like electricity goes everywhere in its search for earth. Like Donald Trump, it does not need to identify with either truth or lie, so much as ANY argument at all that will appear to carry weight. It is motivational, based on enmity. It does not see itself as evil, but aspirational. On the other hand, I think it wise for Jews to remember that not every unagreeable face need be an enemy face. People are various. There are good people everywhere in every guise.

That is why rather than engage in a mare's nest of thrust and counter-thrust with people who are not inevitably evil, I try very hard to keep things simple. I also try not to burn bridges at the drop of a hat, even on the internet. At this point I'm tired and not very sure how well I'm communicating. So here endeth the lesson fer now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 03:16 AM

Steve Shaw - 15 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

The following is an example of reasonable debate and discussion according to the above, from a Labour Party Member, a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn and a former Union activist:

"The bloody meaningless waffle emanating from these three hateful desperados is just unbelievable. Why don't we just leave them to it? They lie, they cheat, they misrepresent."

The only problem is Shaw and his pals cannot counter this "supposed" meaningless waffle with any reasonable argument or fact of their own. Those he refers to as "these three hateful desperados" are hateful because he is far to used to discussing things with sheep who hang off his every utterance and like all good little "socialists" never give any indication of straying from the Party line. Finally as for the last bit of that quote - "They lie, they cheat, they misrepresent." - This has become Shaw's standard accusation, yet when asked for examples of such for some reason he can never provide any.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:12 AM

Steve, you have reverted to unfounded personal attack instead of any attempt at discussion.
If you have nothing to say on the issues then why post at all?

Labour anti-Semitism was again the lead item on BBC R4 news today, so not yet a dead subject Steve.

BBC,
"Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has not done enough to tackle anti-Semitism in the party, a committee of MPs has said.

The Home Affairs Select Committee report criticised him for a lack of "consistent leadership" on the issue, which it said benefited people with "vile attitudes" towards Jewish people."

So the accusations from Labour members were genuine, and all your silly denials are rubbished.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:18 AM

"Jim: I do not think you need to make me such an offer nor do I need to engage it."
Nor do you need to sling your accusations of "antisemitism" about - that doesn't stop you from doing so
"It's a fact of life that Jews have lived with since Adam was a cowboy."
Interesting statement from someone from the U.S. - remind me how long the Native Americans occupied your continent.
Liking or disliking people or religions doesn't come into this argument; it's a matter of how we react to others as human beings - which is exactly what this is all about.
We could have sat on our hands and done nothing when Hitler began persecution the Jews - in Britain's and America's case, our political administrations did - here in Britain, some took to the streets to prevent it happening there - my family among them - my father went to war in 1937 and became a "premature anti-fascist" according to MI5 - his life was ruined for nearly two decades for his doing so.
I get involved in these arguments because I agree totally with the Holocaust survivor friend who once told me "never again - not for anybody".
If you believe me to be an antisemite, as you have said -have the good manners to justify your accusation - otherwise, don't make it.
We have far too many trolls on this forum as it is.
We also have a tiny band of genuine antisemites who are prepared to put the interests of an extremist right-wing administration over those of The Jewish People as a whole (including the "self-hating" ones) - how about commenting on them instead of backing them up?

Bobad
Your (uncredited) quotes are the opinions of an extremist propaganda organisation called 'STAND WITH US', a open supporter of and propagandist for the Israeli administration with direct ties to that regime.
It's activities were commented on recently in Hollywood's Billboard Magazine
"In response to an open letter in Billboard Magazine by the Creative Community for Peace (CCFP) titled "200 Hollywood Heavyweights Support Israel", some media and activists asked whether Hollywood stars like Ziggy Marley, Seth Rogen and Sarah Silverman were aware that the "Creative Community for Peace" was "a sanitizing front for the right-wing, pro-settler organization StandWithUs, that has deep ties to the Israeli government"
It is particularly interesting to note the international nature of their activities - tends to put the accusation made against the Labour Party into context.
How remiss of you not to mention its source!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:19 AM

From Carroll's link:

StandWithUs is a non-profit pro-Israel education and advocacy organization based in Los Angeles. StandWithUs describes itself as an international, non-profit organization that believes that education is the road to peace.

I presume it is the "pro-Israel" part that sets him off in a fit of apoplexy. It appears he would rather be educated by a letter to Billboard Magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:25 AM

We now have the the powerful home affairs select committee report on anti-Semitism in Labour.
The acting chair of the committee told Andrew Marr today that Chakrabarti's report was a "whitewash" and "not worth the paper it was printed on."
Guardian,
"Jeremy Corbyn has come under strong personal attack from a cross-party committee of MPs investigating the growth of antisemitism for helping to create a safe space for people with "vile attitudes towards Jewish people".

In a damning indictment of the party and its leader, the powerful home affairs select committee claims that Corbyn's lack of action "risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally antisemitic". In the report, published on Sunday , Labour is said to have been "demonstrably incompetent" in dealing with incidents of anti-Jewish abuse.

An inquiry into antisemitism in Labour carried out by Shami Chakrabarti on the orders of Corbyn earlier this year is described as "ultimately compromised". Its independence was thrown into doubt by Chakrabarti's acceptance of a peerage and a job in the shadow cabinet, the committee writes.
   
The MPs criticise Chakrabarti for describing antisemitic abuse as merely "unhappy incidents", and note her failure to respond to requests for a timeline proving that there was no connection between her elevation to the Lords and her inquiry. They write: "Ms Chakrabarti has not been sufficiently open with the committee about when she was offered her peerage, despite several attempts to clarify this issue with her.""

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:29 AM

"I presume it is the "pro-Israel" part that sets him off in a fit of apoplexy."
Nope - the bit about the links to the Israeli propaganda campaign does.
You deliberately don't link your quotes since you were sussed out selecting from extremist Islamophobic sites like 'Muslim Watch' and 'White Supremacist'
This is just another from another Extremist propaganda site.
Old habits die hard, as they say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:00 AM

To Jew haters anything pro Israel is extremist propaganda so I take your categorization as confirmation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:02 AM

Better you should take a hike, already.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:44 AM

you were sussed out selecting from extremist Islamophobic sites like 'Muslim Watch' and 'White Supremacist'

Lol.......med time again.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 12:10 PM

Whatever else antisemitism means, it has to involve some element of antagonism to Jews.

People who are antisemitic are indeed likely be to hostile to Israel (though not always - there are antisemites who welcome the existence of Israel, and would like to see all Jews go there).

But it is perfectly possible to be strongly critical of Israel, and of those who support it uncritically, and to do so without any hint of antagonism to Jews. That is demonstrated by many examples of Jews who fall into this category. This even extends to those whose criticism extends to being opposed to the existence of the political entity of Israel, once again including Jews who hold this view. The same applies in the case of any other country. (For example, those who favour Scottish independence and Irish reunification are opposed to the existence of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, without any assumption that they are antagonistic to any inhabitants of the country.)

It is perfectly fair for supporters of Israel to argue that their views are right, and that those who disagree are wrongheaded, irrational or unjust. But it is not in any way fair or logical to assert that being critical of Israel or opposed to those who support Israel is in itself any kind of proof of antisemitism. Only if there are grounds for believing that the basis for such criticism and hostility arises from antagonism to Jews can that assertion be justified.

And those grounds appear to be completely absent in everything that I have ever seen about the claim to identify antisemitism within Labour. No matter who makes that claim, Mudcatter or Member of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 12:43 PM

"It is perfectly fair for supporters of Israel to argue that their views are right, "
Only if it's done on the basis of their directly addressing the actions in The 'Human Rights' and criminality context rather than that the crimes against human rights that have undoubtedly been committed in defence of Israel or the Jewish People - a war crime is a war crime, whoever commits it.
Just as it would be wrong to describe these crimes as "Jewish" (the Israeli regime does this by claiming criticism of them is "antisemitic"), it would be equally wrong to defend them as justified bcause they are committed by Israelis or Jews.
Hopefully, we don't describe war crime committed by British Troops as anything but that because they are committed by troops acting on behalf of Britain - why should Israel, or any nation be different?   
It will be interesting to see the outcome of Theresa May's present efforts to absolve the British Army from charges of WAR CRIMES, especially in the light of possibility of possible charges over IRAQ
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 12:50 PM

Those are the kind of things it would be perfectly fair to argue about.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 12:57 PM

But it is perfectly possible to be strongly critical of Israel, and of those who support it uncritically, and to do so without any hint of antagonism to Jews.

This point keeps being made even though no-one challenges or disagrees with it.

However, are you not suspicious of people who single out Israel for attack, always and only criticising Israel while ignoring much worse rights abusers all around Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 02:13 PM

Precisely the same point was made Keith against anti-apartheid campaigners. Since when white South Africans are mostly not Jewish it wasn't possible to draw the conclusion that the attention paid by us arose from anti-semitism. Undoubtedly if they had been, that charge woulf have been made.

As I pointed out, there has to be some other basis for the charge.

The only basis on which these accusations are being made is in fact criticism of Israel, of its policy or its legitimacy, and of those who support Israel.