uk folk clubs high standard

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 May 19 - 06:27 PM

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!
See 30th April @7.48. I posted about our local Scottish folk club, but as usual, my on topic posts (rare items!) get totally ignored among the morasse of point-scoring, mud-slinging posts off topic between the "usual suspects"!
FWIW it was a SUPERB night at Newtongrange Folk Club last night with guests Fiona Hunter and Mike Vass, and the floor spots were great too. folk music and clubs are very much alive and well in Scotland.
And then there was Edinburgh Folk Club on Wednesday, with a rare, but very welcome visit, from Dave Burland. Excellent support from Emma Leitch and Dougie Mackenzie, accompanied by Brian Miller. I didn't get to that one but it was "live streamed" so was able to watch most of it at home later after getting in from a rehearsal for another folk event.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:21 PM

Mike Vass is back playing regularly again? He'd taken some time off. He's great.

I couldn't make that one, I've had band rehearsals on Thursdays for years.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:51 PM

Yes, I went to Mike's solo concert in the Traverse a few weeks ago: another good night. He has had his problems with recurring Lyme disease, to which he referred during that concert, but is looking and sounding good.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 19 - 12:59 AM

Possibly the problem is that we resent being called a load of rubbish - even if (by your standards) we are , Jim.

Perhaps its as well you went to Ireland. I'm sure we all hope you will continue to be happy there.

You can't really expect us to conform to your standards - particularly as they seem to be centred round an obscure definition of folk music by a group of people from another era.

THey do stuff differently nowadays. Different from when I was a young man, and that was different from when you were a young man. Its their world now - their turn. THat's the nature of English society. Its very dynamic - it does adapt. Everything changes. Its composition, its cultural values, the way the citizens earn a living.

It wasn't ever thus. But it has been since the 18th century.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 19 - 11:00 AM

"So, as I said, no proof of your statement at all."
So you're calling me a liar then
Not the first time
When did you last here of a survey of folk clubs Dave - all the information we have is "just hearsay" - yourrs included
Your statement of how mant fork clubs there are and the fact that you put them up as "a success" leaves you soemwhat hoist on your own petard
I really find stonewalling such as yours really distasteful - it stymies any chance of a frank exchange of opinions and ideas - which is why I won't try again

"There was absolutely NO SNIDE REFERENCEs in my post"
Yas there was Steve - why on earth should you suggest macColl would "approve of anything" and why should I care what he approved of ?
I put my own opinions up - nobody else's
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 19 - 01:48 PM

Subject: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 09:52 AM

"I have played two folk clubs within the last week where the standard of floor singers and tradtional singing were high, they were the welly club at wolvistion teesside, asnd the Ryburn folk club run by PETE AND SUE COE The week before that i played Norwich folk club again high standards of singers playing trad songs.
with the greatest respect i advise Jim Carroll to visit these clubs next time he is in the UK."

What did you expect, given the last sentence ?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 19 - 01:54 PM

So you're calling me a liar then

No idea where that comes from, Jim. I have no doubt whatsoever as to the veracity of Your description of the discussion and what was said. What I am saying is that it provides no proof of your theory that the main reason for a fall in the number of folk clubs is that they no longer provide folk music. You know that to be true so, once again, you are trying to cloud the issue.

all the information we have is "just hearsay" - yourrs included

Indeed. But unlike you I do not present my opinions as facts.

the fact that you put them up as "a success"

We went through this only a few hours ago. I did not put anything up as a success. I linked an article which explained the decline had stopped. Surely you have not forgotten so soon.

which is why I won't try again

If only, Jim. If only.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 19 - 03:07 PM

"No idea where that comes from, Jim."
I've told you what the discussion was about and I also told you that I stopped going to clubs when the performances deteriorated to an unacceptable standard
The discussion confirmed my personal experiences were commonplace, yet you imply it is "just my opinion" and "hearsay"
You are either not reading what I write or are dismissing it out of hand - either way, I find it both offensive and disappointing
You have, in your own way, confirmed my beliefs by telling me what you regard as folk song or folk sounding, so your own words only serve to underline how far the club scene has moved from folk song
You put up your link when we were arguing abut the success or failure of the club scene
You surely are not claiming you put it up as an act of surrender, are you
Of course you put it up because it represented your view - give me credit for a little intelligence Dave
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 May 19 - 03:25 PM

Let's turn this around.

Consider the way Jim addresses us as the sort of talk you'd get in the venues he frequents in the west of Ireland. Or at least, as the sort of talk they tolerate.

Would you want to experience such a place? I certainly wouldn't.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 May 19 - 04:35 PM

What is seems to come down to is that on your few recent visits to UK folk clubs you have come away disappointed. That is unfortunate, because as many have pointed out there are plenty of other clubs where you would have had a better experience. However from those bad experiences you have formed a view of the state of the entire club scene. When others point out that your experience may not be the whole picture you simply dismiss them, claiming in your support an article in a magazine which ceased publication 40 years ago.

Are there fewer folk clubs now than there used to be? Undoubtedly. Do some clubs allow or even encourage poor practice such as reading from song sheets? True. Are those clubs typical? Not in my experience. Have standards declined? Not in my experience.

The folk scene has changed, and clubs no longer dominate it the way they used to. It is now in the hands of a younger generation who do things their own way, and in their own venues. Those I know take the music seriously and standards, especially of instrumental music, are probably higher than ever. There are many excellent young performers, and traditional music remains at the core of what many of them do. There are more opportunities to study aspects of folk music (not just the degree courses but workshops, summer schools, conferences, etc). For those interested in 'authentic' traditional music, resources are now much more easily available than before.

The folk scene is in my opinion in pretty good shape. I'm sorry you seem to have turned your back on it, because you are missing out on some good music.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 19 - 05:06 PM

The discussion confirmed my personal experiences were commonplace, yet you imply it is "just my opinion" and "hearsay"

I don't imply anything at all, Jim. It is a fact that it is just your opinion. Just as it is a fact that a number of other people saying it is also their opinion does not make it any more valid. In a recent poll 51% of people said it was a good idea to leave the EU. By your reckoning does that make it a fact that leaving is a good idea? Get a grip, man.

Of course you put it up because it represented your view

Yes. It represents my view that the decline has abated if not reversed. That is what it said. Nothing more, nothing less.

Howard has it spot on. Shame you feel that you no longer fit into the English folk scene. However, English folk will continue to thrive whether you are there to help it along or not. I, and many others, will continue to enjoy it. You will continue griping and it will carry on regardless.

What happened to "which is why I won't try again" btw? :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 19 - 07:13 PM

3rd May 2019: Hadleigh Folk & Acoustic Club: Val & Simon opened with a couple of enjoyable tune sets, followed by Steve who had blagged a couple of songs which were 'old school' and fine, (He does that at Everyman also).The balance of the first half and featured guest served to remind Bill why he has hitherto declined to step into the pool of SOBWG's (look it up on Terence Blacker's YT), who are numerously competitive in seeking venues to play trophy guitars in various combinations, and taking themselves altogether too seriously. Nonetheless that is the pool into which Sh?ed seemingly seeks to step! Fortunately Dick Miles redeemed the evening with an engaging and intimate set of well known songs, beautifully sung and accompanied, and with which people immediately felt able and inclined to participate in chorus, and verse if known. No cajoling necessary. Fantastic stagecraft, (seemed effortless), and saved the evening. (We had almost given up at half time).review from folkbluesnbeyond.co.uk

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 19 - 07:16 PM

sobwg apparantly stands for sad old bastard with guitar

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:01 AM

"What is seems to come down to is that on your few recent visits to UK folk clubs you have come away disappointed"
No - it goes far beyond that Howard
This decline has been taking place since the late eighties when I mad many others stopped widely visiting clubs and confined ourselves to the diminishing few that lived up to what they called themselves
By the mid-nineties they became so few that the revival scene to be able to sustain itself
Arguments like these have pretty well established why they disappeared - the scene no longer has an identifiable basis, nobody seems to know or care what folk song is any more which means it has no future in England
I have no doubt there are clubs that still fly the folk flag, but I don't believe there is anywhere enogh to bring about the necessary changes

Ireland
I can't recall having described what happens on the singing scene in Ireland - I certainly have never advocated it happening in Britain
Ireland has never really had a strong club scene - a few, some of them excellent - the Goilín being one of the most long lasting, the newest and the most promising is 'the one at The Cobblestone in Dublin, run mainly be young newbies
The instrumental music scene has established itself - from the 'session' level right through to having a place on the media and acceptance within the Arts fraternity - it has constant coverage in the media
The song side has a fair way to go to catch up, but there are signs that it is moving
THere are many 'song circles' here - regular local gatherings to sing and listen to songs
Not many are, as far as I know, traditionally based and there are few I have attended that I would do so regularly
We're lucky here - we have an excellent one, well run by a lady with a strong interest in traditional songs and firm han on the tiller - I'll be at that one tonight (will have to record 'Line of Duty' !!!)
Next month she has booked Tom McCarthy as a guest
We are discussing how to expand the group into a workshop in order to encourage those who don't sing, with advice and offers of material to learn from
I know that Mudcat member, Marn Ryan, is part of of an excellent Singers Gathering in Kinvarra, in Galway
There are over a dozen of these 'Circles' in this County alone
I would guess that there are more of them around Ireland than there are clubs in Britain
Not many are what I would describe as 'folk, but what's not to like Jack - you certainly don't have anything better on your side of the pond ?
As for festivals - in eight weeks time this little one-street town will be overflowing with people, young and old, who have come from all over the world come to take part in a week of classes, lectures, sessions, recitals, concerts.... in honour of the memory of traditional piper, Willie Clancy
That has been running for over four decades now and has produced some of the finest musicians in Ireland - it's importance being it is a school where people go to learn and teach and is, as far as I know, totally unique
There are other such annual gatherings in Ireland, many dedicated to traditional musicians and singers - Frank Harte, Padraig O'Keefe, Seamus Ennis, Joe Heaney, Joe Cooley, Frankie Kennedy....   
Not much not to like there Jack
Would that England had the same respect for its traditional singers and musicians Jack
They have a name for attitudes like your over here Jack - "begrudgery"

Sorry Dave
You are totally ignoring what I have said and are now carrying out a war of attrition - not something I wish to be part of
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:28 AM

Absolutely not, Jim. Unless by war of attrition you mean setting the record straight. Which I will do once again.

You say,"This decline has been taking place since the late eighties". The article to which I referred says the same.

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends.

Note that it agrees with you on when it happened, just not why. Which is what I have said all along. Furthermore, you go on to say "when I mad many others stopped widely visiting clubs" so, when you stopped visiting, you no longer had your finger on the pulse. The article goes on to say

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music

So, after you lost touch with clubs, the decline stabilised.

I believe your opinion of why clubs declined is wrong and, since you lost touch, the decline has stopped. Which is what the article confirms. I would go further and say since the early 2000s the interest in folk music has increased but that is just my opinion. It is however now backed up by the fact that there is more folk music in the public eye than ever before. Something that never could have happened with folk clubs which were never part of main stream media.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:57 AM

"The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music"
And the list that the article gives is of superstars - there is no reference whatever to the clubs - the scene, according to your article, hace transmogrified to something nearer the pop scene with no reference whatever to its original grass-roots nature - the point I am making - it was no longer locally based ot had anything to do with folk music proper
Read what you put up
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:57 AM

"The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music"
And the list that the article gives is of superstars - there is no reference whatever to the clubs - the scene, according to your article, hace transmogrified to something nearer the pop scene with no reference whatever to its original grass-roots nature - the point I am making - it was no longer locally based ot had anything to do with folk music proper
Read what you put up
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 19 - 04:07 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 04:22 AM

the scene, according to your article, hace transmogrified to something nearer the pop scene

And thereby made it available to thousands of people who would otherwise never have heard folk music. How is taking folk music out of clique driven dingy back rooms and giving it to the masses a bad thing?

Read what you put up

I find it quite insulting that you suggest I would link an article without understanding it. Seeing as you seem to misquote both me and the article regularly may I suggest that revisit it yourself. And I do wish you would stop referring to 'your article'. It has nothing to do with me. It was written by someone I have no connection with and it is subject to the usual wiki terms. If it is wrong, anyone can submit a correction.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 04:28 AM

And...

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 04 May 19 - 11:00 AM

...I really find stonewalling such as yours really distasteful - it stymies any chance of a frank exchange of opinions and ideas - which is why I won't try again

I did suggest this statement may not be true :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 04:54 AM

And thereby made it available to thousands of people who would otherwise never have heard folk music. How is taking folk music out of clique driven dingy back rooms and giving it to the masses a bad thing?"Dave   folkmusic is not in clquey dingy rooms, you make sweeping generalisations which insult many organisers.
the last four clubs i have played at in the last few weeks, two were in rooms that were previously churches one was in a pub noit a back room and the other was a well lit well decorated upstairs room of a pub.
Dave your comment actually displays your ignorance of many folk club venues. Dave you favour the commercilisation of folk music and giving it to the masses , unfortunately sometimes by doing this the music becomes bowdlerised and sanatised.. witness Cecil sharp , and in the case of folk rock sometimes beyond recognition

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 05:11 AM

my experience has been that many folk clubs are not held in dingy backrooms that are clique ridden
firstly, many dingy back rooms are no longer available to folk club organisers any more , yet more evidence that dave the gnome does not know what he is talking about .perhaps he should get out more and visit more folk clubs he will find out that these days they are in many different places that they are well lit and friendly,
two i visted recently were in well lit ex churches, norwich and hadleigh,two were in upstairs rooms that were well lit and pleasantly decorated, ryburn and the wilsons club

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 19 - 05:32 AM

”And thereby made it available to thousands of people who would otherwise never have heard of folk music. How is taking folk music out of clique driven dingy back rooms and giving it to the masses a bad thing?” (DtG)

“my experience has been that many folk clubs are not held in dingy backrooms that are clique ridden” (The Sandman)

And my reading of what Dave wrote is that he was saying precisely the same thing as you, Sandman, not something different. No doubt Dave will clarify if I’ve misunderstood his post but, AFAICS, he clearly was saying that, since the ‘80s, there has been a move to the “Many different places that are well-lit and friendly” that you talk about, and largely because of the changing format of the music.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 May 19 - 05:52 AM

"I really find stonewalling such as yours really distasteful - it stymies any chance of a frank exchange of opinions and ideas - which is why I won't try again"

"I did suggest this statement may not be true"

I'm sure many readers of the thread had the same thought in respect of the 'I won't try again'. Another common rhetorical flourish is 'I think we're done here' when obviously nobody is 'done', especially the writer. And recently we have another dead metaphor with a similar declaration, the 'war of attrition' metaphor "You are totally ignoring what I have said and are now carrying out a war of attrition - not something I wish to be part of"

At this point the rhetoric becomes highly amusing. Because the same poster has used metaphor based on warfare himself, as in You surely are not claiming you put it up as an act of surrender, are you'. If you don't want to give the impression you are part of a 'war of attrition' then maybe give the military metaphors a miss. (Not sure how apt the metaphor is anyway, but there you go).


Also amusing because of the language of the poster, who emotively and I think it fair to say belligerently describes the views and points etc of people who don't agree with him as and I quote 'offensive', 'distasteful' while claiming, as far as one can make it out, to be objective and factual in his claims.


I am happy to do as Jim asks and credit him with a little intelligence.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 19 - 05:58 AM

Dingy back rooms - what an appalling way too write off one of the most exciting and pleasurable episoodes of British cultural history
It was 'dingy back rooms' smoky pubs, dirty factory floors, stables filled with horse-shit, barrack rooms, fordecks... that gave birth to our fol songs
You want plush venues, go book the RHa - that will really empower the people culturally
You are criticising the whole basis of people's culture - it was the music of the workplace and where workers took respite from their labours
I suppose you would do the same for sweaty, overcrowded discos - put them on stage where they smell nice
Gi'e us a break Dave
The atmosphere of an overcrowded club with people crammed in to listen to good songs well sung remains one of my fondest memories
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:00 AM

Spot on BWM. One of the many reasons that the number of folk clubs lessened is that the one ones that were clique driven and dingy were, quite rightfully, closed. Not only have the number of venues lessened but the the quality of the ones left has improved, making folk music a much more inviting thing to many who previously were not even aware of it. This in turn, in my opinion, has led to folk music becoming a more interesting prospect for main stream media to carry. Which brings me on to...

Dave you favour the commercilisation of folk music and giving it to the masses

If it is not given to the masses, how is it folk music, Dick? As to commercialisation, why do you say I favour it? I have never even suggested such a thing although, now you mention it, a bit of commercialisation would not harm the career and finances of any jobbing folk singer would it :-)

BTW - I believe you are at the White Lion later this year. Not cliquey at all but, unless it has been decorated since April 1st, let me know how you feel about the mould.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:04 AM

If there was a decline in the sort of club Jim liked to attend, maybe this was linked to a decline in funding from the old Soviet Union as described in that biography of A L Lloyd?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:07 AM

I can remember the first time I heard MacColl sing 'Sweet Thames'
I'd turned up at the Singers Club late and Peggy ssuggested I sit on the front of the stage, facing the audience
The room fas full to bursting and I watched an enthralled, totally silent packed audience breathing in time to Ewan's singing Sweet Thames
The memory remains so strong that when we made the two Ewan tribute programmes, she insisted we put it in as a run-up to the song
Still brings a lump....
I won't respond to your 'your opinion' nonsense Dave - I'm no snob - I'll talk to anybody :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:07 AM

Dave it depends how you define commercialisation, dave, if it means changing what i perform to signing buddy hooly and cliff richard. NO

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:10 AM

So, now we have the real cause of Jim's complaint. The number of dingy back rooms, smokey pubs, dirty workplaces, shitty stables and even sweaty discos is not what it used to be. At least we know now. I wonder if I could make a commercial venture of re-introducing them? ;-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:14 AM

In my experience commercialsation of the uk folk revival in practice means a handful of agents dominating the scene , they push their acts , muscle in on certain festivals,the scene becomes saturated with their acts, no . i do not think that aspect of commercialsation is the best thing for the uk folk revival

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:15 AM

Dave it depends how you define commercialisation, dave, if it means changing what i perform to signing buddy hooly and cliff richard. NO

Absolutely, Dick. I would much rather you carry on doing what you do best. It was you that brought up commercialisation, not me. I took you to mean making a bit of money out of it, which is fine by me and I am sure you do not complain about being paid. As far as I am aware commercialisism has never meant pandering to the masses.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:31 AM

And thereby made it available to thousands of people who would otherwise never have heard folk music. How is taking folk music out of clique driven dingy back rooms and giving it to the masses a bad thing?
your words giving it to the masses is generally defined as commercialiosation
2, SONGS THAT ARE SUNG AT FOOTBALL MATCHES ARE SUNG BY THE MASSES, and according to the 1954 defintion are folk songs , nobody would pay to hear such garbage as thewheelbarrowsong at a folk club , if that is what you want dave ,that is not what i want to hear at a folk club , please define the music you would like the masses to hear and let me know how you think it should be performed so that the masses would like it, and then we might notice how commercialisation takes ther music away from the roots.
3 you mention one club, in swinton and mould, are you generalising from the particular again Gnome, i am sure the organsiers at Swinton would thank you for dissing their premises , they would possibly call you something else other than gn0ome

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:34 AM

commercialism definition: the principles and activity of commerce, especially those connected with profit rather than quality or doing good
Elvis versus Sandy Denny perhaps? The floor is open.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:37 AM

smoky back rooms. They didn't import tobacco until relatively late.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:49 AM

"generalising from the particular " is what started this thread in the first place.
"They didn't import tobacco until relatively late." Does the name Raleigh mean anything to you ?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:55 AM

kind of push bike?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 06:55 AM

please define the music you would like the masses to hear and let me know how you think it should be performed

Dead simple, Dick. It should be folk music, that people like to hear, performed well. I am not going to fall into the folk music definition trap.

i am sure the organsiers at Swinton would thank you for dissing their premises

I was one of the organisers, Dick, and Ged and Sue who run it now are still two of my best friends. The state of the folk club room has nothing to do with the folk club anyway as the pub is managed by a landlord and owned by Robinsons brewery. Maybe you should get to know the facts before shooting your mouth off. Little wonder that you get into so many arguments.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:00 AM

Raleigh, oh the one rumoured to have introduced tobacco? That Raleigh?
Colonialist etc.

Point stands, with respect, that 'folk song' is supposed to date back to medieval times whereas in Europe tobacco is about 16th century. So claiming that folk originated in smoky dens or whatever not quite historical.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:13 AM

Little wonder that you get into so many arguments."Dave that is hilarious coming from you.
2 if it is the fault of the landlord of a pub in the one case that you have generalised from, it is obviuos the club would have moved if there were other suitable venues or perhaps the venue has other positives that you have not mentioned. howewver i have mentioned 5 venues thati have n played in recently that do not fit the description ofdingy cl;iquey back rooms.
3. dve can you desist in contuing your numeous arguments with jim carroll so that we can discuss the high standard of singing folk clubs.
Guest you are wrong whatstarted this thread was relating the experince from 3 particulars. not the same as generalising from one particular i have now mentioned4 examples of high standards that i have witnessed.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Walter Raleigh
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:15 AM

If all the world and love were young,
And truth in every shepherd's tongue,
These pretty pleasures might me move
To live with thee and be thy love.

Time drives the flocks from field to fold
When Rivers rage and Rocks grow cold,
And Philomel becometh dumb;
The rest complains of cares to come.

The flowers do fade, and wanton fields
To wayward winter reckoning yields;
A honey tongue, a heart of gall,
Is fancy's spring, but sorrow's fall.

Thy gowns, thy shoes, thy beds of roses,
Thy cap, thy kirtle, and thy posies
Soon break, soon wither, soon forgotten:
In folly ripe, in reason rotten.

Thy belt of straw and Ivy buds,
Thy coral clasps and amber studs,
All these in me no means can move
To come to thee and be thy love.

But could youth last and love still breed,
Had joys no date nor age no need,
Then these delights my mind might move
To live with thee and be thy love.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:18 AM

Throughout the year we have a huge number of festivals from which to choose. Some of these are large-scale events showcasing the 'superstars' you disdain, while others are smaller and more intimate, and a number of these are explicitly focused on traditional music and where possible include authentic traditional singers and musicians, although sadly there are now fewer of those left these days. We have nothing quite like Willie Week, but only last weekend John and Katie Howson put on a celebration of Julia Clifford, who although Irish lived for much of her life in East Anglia. Until they retired they ran the East Anglian Music Trust which does a lot to promote the traditional music of the region including holding events. There is something for everyone, from the diehard enthusiast to the casual listener.

The folk scene here is thriving, perhaps not at the level it once enjoyed but it's doing well enough, and will continue to do so whatever you choose to believe about it. Folk clubs are part of it, but only a part. Young people, some of them second and third generation folkies, are enthusiastic about traditional music and are performing it to very high standards, and also creating new music in traditional styles. I can quite understand that there is much you might find is not to your taste - "things ain't what they used to be" has been the cry down all the generations. Turn your back on it if you choose - it's your loss.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:18 AM

Mr Sandman, you have a point. But (and a previous post to this effect vanished) it was obvious from the moment you put up your post that Jim Carroll would be along to start an argument. I think Vic Smith correctly pointed out some features in Jim's approach to 'discussion', or perhaps 'battle' as this is how Jim seems to see it, winds people up. I agree that it is best to focus on what is positive. And there is a lot to be positive about.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:21 AM

Howard is right about 'things ain't what they used to be cries'. That said, food definitely tasted better in t'owd dees. And nowadays everybody - just everybody mumbles and even the TV is broadcast at noticeably lower volumes. Maybe Jim's approach to online discussion is a variant on the 'old man who is deaf shouts as this is the only way he can hear himself'??? :)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:50 AM

"I am not going to fall into the folk music definition trap."Goes with teh job description I'm afraid
"I'm an electrician but I don't understand electrics - ridicu;ous
This is the main cause of the decline
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:55 AM

it is obviuos the club would have moved if there were other suitable venues

I was born in Swinton 66 years ago and lived there most of my life. I helped to run the folk club for over 30 years of that time. If I remember rightly the only time you were booked there before, there was a mix up over dates and you didn't make it. Do you not think I may know a bit more about Swinton than you do, Dick?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 May 19 - 08:02 AM

Hmm. Still happy to credit Jim with a little intelligence.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 08:07 AM

no, dave you are wrong i have played there to quote yourself,Maybe you should get to know the facts before shooting your mouth off. you clearly do not know much about the club if you get your facts wrong check with Ged,
furthermore i have a witness a friend of mine who was at least one of the gigs.
howard, i took her several times to my club in bury st edmunds, i booked john and julia when few others in east anglia were booking them, the people that looked after them and visited them the most were the mongers and the kilbanes
julia did not live most of her life in east anglia prior to east anglia they lived in hackney.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 08:52 AM

If you have appeared at Swinton before then, Dick, I apologise. I was probably there as well but can't remember. Must have been a memorable night... :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 10:11 AM

Goes with teh job description I'm afraid

What job description is that, Jim? I no longer have a "job" in folk music. I know what I like and I know what sounds like folk song to me. Why would I want to get embroiled in a pointless argument about arbitrary definitions?