BS: Blair the hypocrite

Subject: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 02:22 PM

This lastest hostage incident has, for the first time, made me look seriously at Tony Blair. Previous to this, I thought of him only as a "lapdog" for Bush. What a dispicable, blundering idiot he is!

I watch him complaining about the treatment of the British hostages and claiming that he is disgusted, but what does he think has been going on with outsourcing and the torture of prisoners captured by the U.S. and Britain? The videos and photos from Abu Grahib make the British hostages look like they're on a picnic. Compare that to the countless number of images of the imprisoned, tortured and dead that Britain has somehow justified. Where is outrage at U.S. actions?

I am sure the hostages are terrified, but they have not been photgraphed in sexual positions, or squatting in a hole like Saddam, or on their knees in orange jumpsuits and show no signs of being battered or tortured.

I have seen plenty of examples of people hiding behind self-righteous indignation but Tony Blair takes the cake. He looks more foolish everytime I see his act of moral outrage. He's as bad or worse than Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 03:53 PM

I'll offer no argument against, dianavan.
I watched the "Queen" the other day, which is based on the time soon after he entered office, and I thought: What would he think now, watching "himself" as it were, in happier times, full of hope and promises, when his stock was running high... And look at him now. Not that I feel sorry for him, he earned his downfall, but I almost blushed on his behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 03:54 PM

well i think he's quite nice - but then I've been drinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:58 PM

Dianavan, like yourself, i am no fan of Mr Blair, but i think you need to rethink your line in the hostage crisis, yes, there has been unfortunate mishappenings with individual behaviour in abhu Grahib. but, and this is the point, i am not aware of any conflict between the U.K and Iran. of all the unfortunate footage and pictures seen, i am not aware of any of them being of Iranian military personell. and you are right, Guantanamo bay is obviously no picnic, but i am not aware of any iranian military personell there either. this is a crisis between 2 bonafide military factors. this being the case, it is fair that the M.O.D and the British Government expect Iran to behave in a proffesional manner, not parade captured sailors and Marines to read manufactured transcripts to a tv camera. If it were Al Quaida who had kidnapped these people, then i would expect this kind of behaviour, but not from an apparently civilised country like Iran. I cant imagine that if the boot was on the other foot, Iranian soldiers/ sailors etc would have to read from manuscripts denouncing theyre government. Just my thoughts, but if Iran wants to step up to the line and show its military as unproffesional and amateurish, then lets hope that they never do get those nuclear weapons they are after. And, as i said before, i bet the M.O.D dont get the GPS equipment back.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM

Dianavan, you show yourself up.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 07:10 PM

I would say that what the POWs were saying on TV was sign enough of them having been, well, coerced. I can't imagine the flower of the Royal fleet, and don't get me wrong, I have great admiration for those individuals' keeping it out of the shootin' war stage, so I mean that as a true compliment - I'd be proud as all getout of them if they were mine - anyway, I just can't see them saying those things willingly.
Anyone checked for eyeblink frequency, or is that too old-school? Aren't there prearranged signals for I'm OK/I'm not OK, anyway? I would assume the brass knows full well how they are being treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:14 AM

Of course the confessions are bogus. I doubt if Iran thinks that Westerners believe any of it. I do believe that the Iranian people are probably eating it up (especially the sinful, cigarette smoking woman). Its called propaganda.

Blindlemonsteve - If the shoe was on the other foot, do you think Britain or the U.S. would refrain from humiliating their captives? They do more than humiliate. They out-source torture to gain their 'confessions'. We have seen enough of what they have done to hostages to know that Blair is far from righteous. Who does he think he is fooling? He is a bad actor. Period. Nobody is holding a gun to his head so whats his excuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:47 AM

dianavan
You are 100% correct!

Do you think that the US would put up photo's of the detainees (not POW'S) at Guantanamo or abhu Grahib in the condition that we put them in. NOT. If they had we wouldn't had to have suffered the embrassment of what we did to them in the first place, they would've been exposed right from day one. Tony has brass balls to get huffy about this, the sniffling shit, his sailors look to be in fine shape & he should be happy that it's appearant that they are and not looking like the captaives of the US/UK. If I were one of the relitives I'd be tickled to see & know that they were in good shape, better shape than they would be if captive of their own. And who'd care about them admitting to any wrong doing. It certinally won't be held against them, not that anyone will believe that it was done of their free will. Pretty stupid to have had them do that anyway, IMO.

Tony needs to take a chill pill, better yet maybe he should offer himself up for their return, though it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice, maybe Bush & Blair would do the trick. No the 15 sailors are worth far more that those two.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:55 AM

Everyone seems to be missing the point here, there is no conflict between Iran and The United Kingdom, so why are we bleeting on about the way a few bad apples have treated prisoners in Abhu Grahib, this has absolutely nothing to do with Iran. it is fair to compare the way that the Al Quaida cells look after theyre detainees, and as bad as a few immoral pictures are concerned, or having to wear orange overalls 24/7 i would prefer this to having my head hacked off in the name of Alla.
as stated before, this is an argument between 2 military factors, it has nothing to do with Guantanamo, Abhu Grahib, Al Quaida etc etc. the iranian military are showing themselves up to be 2nd rate, amateurish and embarrassing for the Iranian people. I dont know what the state of play at the moment is, but i suspect they had better be thinking of releasing them very soon. As they will find out exactly how professional certain departments of the British Army are. I think a more fair comparison of how our troops behave in this sort of manner would be to look at how the Iraqi "Soldiers" not terrorist suspects. were treated as the invasion began. or in 1991, when the Iraqis were surrendering in theyre thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:08 AM

Blindlemonsteve - It is you who are missing the point.

How does the U.S. and Britain treat hostages compared to how Iran is treating these hostages?

Its a matter of human decency.

I'd say they look to be in fine shape and thats exactly what Iran wants us to see. It shows the world that Iran is not as inhumane as the western invaders. Its the best PR they've had in ages!

Blair looks like he's out of control. What a sniveling whimp!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:47 AM

"Its the best PR they've (The Iranian Government) had in ages!"

Only with regard to domestic consumption - internationally its a disaster for Iran, already partially isolated over their flagrant disregard for the terms and conditions of an international treaty that they willingly signed and agreed to abide by, this latest escapade has managed to further tip the balance of world opinion against them.

"Blair looks like he's out of control. What a sniveling whimp!"

I would say that in all appearances made so far Tony Blair and the British Government representatives have shown remarkable restraint. Compare their words and body language to what is coming out of Tehran, which has mostly been all threat and bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:58 AM

Has it ever occurred to you, teribus, that there is nothing stopping Iran from backing out of the treaty? In fact, it has been said that this hostage incident is just a front so that they can back out quietly while everyone is focussed on the hostages.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:03 AM

A politician a hypocrite?
Surely not!
Gosh I am surprised.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,Barry (where's my cookie gone)
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:12 AM

"there is no conflict between Iran and The United Kingdom"

Then what do you call this?
They are part of the heart & soul of the MidEast, you are thinking as a westerner.

T, world opinion is not that big of a concern to them, mid east opinion is far more important though. If they come out of this, say with as little as a fixed & final border they'll be coming out smelling like roses. If it backfires, well thats a different story.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:05 AM

"How does the U.S. and Britain treat hostages compared to how Iran is treating these hostages?"


The U.K and the U.S do not take hostages, they are holding terrorist suspects, for one purpose and one purpose only, to try to reduce the terrorist threat in the future, i myself find this whole episode unpalletable, in our democratic societies, a man can be held indefinitely without trial. you are right, this is wrong, but, they are not hostages, also, they are not members of any bonafide military organisation, do you really think the U.S and the U.K would hold Iranian soldiers in the same manner as the Iranians have, i think not, even if we were at war with Iran.

We are not at war with Iran,,,,, yes they are part of the middle east, yes there are problems with our relationship,,, but we are not at war with them, they have no business holding those sailors and marines,other than a brief questioning about what they were doing, even though they were 1.7.nautical miles inside Iraqi waters. And you can bet your bottom dollar the GPS equipment will confirm this, thats why they wont get it back.
They have no business parading them like they are P.O.W´s they are not.

For the most part, the U:S and the U.K forces in Iraq are doing an excellent job, in very hard circumstances, there are always a few bad apples in a barrel. This line about how Iraqi prisoners have been abused etc etc, has been blown out of all proportion. These incidents were not tolerated by the higher command of the perpetrators, and they have been where possible bought to justice.

Dont let a few idiots allow your judgement to become clouded,99.9% of our troops are acting in Iraq, with the greatest integrity, they are professional soldiers, not press ganged bandits like the Iranians seem to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:11 AM

It has already backfired on Iran. Their equivocation about the release of Faye Turney has hurt then not only with the international community--and although some might say Iran cares only for the good-will of its Middle East neighbours, they cannot really afford to be isolationist--but also with its own people, many of whom have said that it was wrong.

There seems to be a three-way power struggle IN Iran: Revolutionary Guard, clerics and Ahmadinejad. Ahmadinejad has been criticized lately for his trips abroad, and Iran's weakening economy--not due really to lack of money, but due to poor administration OF that money--has caused a growing unrest amongst the Iranian people. I guess ya can't spend all that money on nuclear production, have nothing to show for it, and be able to tell Iranians that you're doing something good for them. Tough tightrope to walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:49 AM

Dianavan theoretically there is nothing whatsoever to stop Iran backing out of the nuclear NPT. There exists clearly laid out procedures detailing exactly how that could be accomplished. Unfortunately for Iran however, while there are detailed steps for them to follow, there are also detailed steps for others to follow, which if complied with would stop Iran's nuclear ambitions in their tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 06:31 AM

I believe given the circumstances of the 'hostage taking' which was most certainly unnecessary and provocative, that Tony Blair and the Government advisors, have taken the only route so far that would be sensible. However, I am prepared to listen to what DIANAVAN would do under exactly the same circumstances which would not cause dissent somewhere along the line.
Over to you Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:11 AM

are you called that, because your name's Diana and you've got a van?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:31 AM

BTW, DV, show me a prisoner, any prisoner, in the UK (you deal with the USA, the UK never agreed to the US holding UK people in the USA's torture camp in Guantanamo Bay) being tortured so sign false confessions and paraded on TV.

It gets clearer by the minute that the UK personnel were not in Iranian water, and that the Iranians were on an illegal snatch mission. There was a nutty professor of "political geography" (funny, I didn't know mountains could vote) from Tehran the other night who said that the first location the Iranians gave (the one that put the UK personnel nearly 2 miles outside Iranian waters) was at the margin of error in one direction and the later one that put them 2 miles inside Iranian waters (after the Iranians changed thier mind) was at the other margin.

A 4 mile margin of error on Sat-nav positioning? I don't think so.

And ask yourself where the Iranian pictures of the moments so soon after the seizure came from. Do the Iranian military intercept boats carry TV cameras? Er- perhaps this was a staged stunt by the Iranians...

I have agreed with you about the plight of the oppressed in the past, but this particular episode has only one right and only one wrong side.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:03 AM

Well yeh Richard - all fair points. But you've got to admit Blair is a shifty customer. You can't be too sure of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:25 PM

Blindlemonsteve - "there is no conflict between Iran and The United Kingdom"

That is a joke. The Iranians practically have a tradition of hating Britain. They have had years and years to blame the Brits (whether it is justified or not) for just about anything and they do. Ask an Iranian. They despise Britain. They actually like the U.S. more than Britain. Britain is the age old enemy.

Regarding the treatment of hostages: Has Blair ever condemned the U.S. for the outsourcing and torture of hostages? Whether or not they are soldiers or 'terrorists' make no difference. Human rights are human rights.

What would I do?

Apologize to Iran for confusion over territorial boundaries and request a meeting to clearly establish the boundaries so that it wouldn't happen again. The hostages would then be returned.

weelittledrummer - Are you a drummer with a weelittle one?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:43 PM

Read this and you may understand the basis of the antipathy towards Britain and the USA in Iran. Once again we were meddling in the affairs of another country instead of running our own properly.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

No it weelittle drummer is a reference to song called Arthur McBride - made listenable by the genius of Paul Brady.

Went to school and college with a lot of kids from Iran - I can assure you. You've got that one wrong. They were really into the English thing - cricket, football, groovy fashions. They're actually a very nice people. Polite, civilised, fun.....

Don't believe all the crap you read.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:34 PM

Dianavan...you state "What would I do?

Apologize to Iran for confusion over territorial boundaries and request a meeting to clearly establish the boundaries so that it wouldn't happen again. The hostages would then be returned".

Do you not think it simplistic that "an apology" would suffice when the boundary firstly was not crossed and those personnel were taken hostage! There is a hidden agenda here and all will surely be revealed at some jucture.
Clearly established boundaries are already there and Iran broke them to take the hostages.....what would the US do? what Dianavan would you do in reality if your rights were infringed upon. You are talking as if Iran are in the right!!! do you know something we all apparently don't?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:55 PM

Georgiansilver - Quite the contrary. You are talking like the Brits are innocent victims.

In fact, the boundaries are not clearly established and have been disputed and changed many times. Why were the Brits poking at a hornets nest when they knew that Iran was on edge? As far as rights go, Maybe this boundary dispute should be settled by Iraq and Iran. Its certainly not Britain's decision to establish the boundaries between these two countries. If there was a boundary dispute between Canada and the U.S., do you think we would let Britain determine who was right? No, we would settle it ourselves.

And yes, I think it is absolutely acceptable to apologize for confusion regarding territorial boundaries at sea under these unusual circumstances. The sooner the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 06:14 PM

Again Dianavan you are making assumptions "Why were the Brits poking at a hornets nest when they knew that Iran was on edge?"
If, as I believe, our personnel were in Iraqui waters then Iran are in the wrong. As I asked before.."Do you know something we don't"? You obviously think they were in the wrong......Or are you just flaming for the hell of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:05 PM

What I'm saying, Georgiansilver, is that when someone is angry, you stay far away. Obviously, they were not far enough away or the abduction wouldn't have been so fast and easy. Britain was on high alert but they were still mucking about in murky waters.

Has anybody ever delved into what the other merchant vessels in the vicinity may have witnessed? Haven't heard much about that have we? Why do you suppose that might be? Its all pretty hush-hush except for the rhetoric that is obviously a build up to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:28 AM

Let me spell this out,,,,,there is no conflict of war between IRAN and THE UNITED KINGDOM....They might despise us, hate us for whatever reason, but we are not at war with the country of Iran.. OK, that established, now, heres the idea, P.O.W´s, that meaning "PRISONERS OF WAR" can only be held and detained for the duration of any WAR. P.O.W´s can only be members of bonafide military organisations, otherwise they have to be tried and detained, executed, or released. It is also worth pointing out that any P.O.W held, has to be treated in accordance to the Geneva Convention, thus making it illegal to parade captured persons as some kind of trophy.

Now, here is my point, because no state of war exists between Iran and the U.K, why on earth are they holding 15 sailors and Marines. they should have been questioned, IF they were in Iranian waters, but this should have taken no more than 24 hours.

But as i have said before, we wont find out for sure, because you can bet your mortgage that the Iranians wont give back the GPS equipment the have stolen, like they didnt before.

It is also worth pointing out that this episode can not be compared to Guantanamo Bay, Abhu Grahib etc etc, to do so would completely be misunderstanding the point. This is one country "Iran" showing aggresion to another "U.K".

I would also like to point out that any British detainees at Guantanamo, were removed and repatriated at the request of Mr Blair.

I dont understand the line some people take on these issues, If the U.S or the U.K do something, its all a big cover up, something sly is going on, all a bit cloak and dagger, but if those champions of human rights "Iran" do something, its oh, they are behaving within theyre rights, its just that us westerners dont understand them, and as for poor old Saddaam, well he was the salt of the earth wasnt he, just a bit misunderstood bless him.

As long as we dont have to live under these regimes, best just leave the people who do to suffer them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:37 AM

"On Monday 5th March, about 100,000 teachers went on strike. On 8th March 10,000 teachers staged a picket outside the Parliament building in Tehran demanding justice and better wages.

According to the Organisation for Womens' Liberation, "all along the regime has refused to meet their demands. On 8th March (International Women's Day), many students and the women's movement showed their solidarity with the teachers. Many 8th march leaflets were distributed among the demonstrators. There were talks among the demonstrators to join the 8th March demonstration by Tehran University .

On Monday 5th March, several thousand factory workers also joined the teachers to demand their unpaid wages. Many workers' committees have issued 8th March messages to commemorate International Women's Day."

The strike is reportedly the biggest industrial dispute in Iran in recent years, with schools forced to close nationwide. Teachers said the strike had not been orchestrated by any labour organisation but had caught on by word of mouth. Labour unions are typically weak and disorganised in Iran."


And by merest chance along comes the prisoner/hostage incident. Nothin' like focusing the folks on the nasty UK marines and sailors to take their minds off a shit economy and crap work conditions. But there'd be no cause/effect there I guess. No, not likely. Naw . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:05 AM

"But Craig Murray, a former British diplomat and Foreign Office specialist on maritime affairs, said, "There is no agreed maritime boundary between Iraq and Iran in the Persian Gulf. Until the current mad propaganda exercise of the last week, nobody would have found that in the least a controversial statement."

In postings on his Web site, www.craigmurray.co.uk, Mr. Murray referred to charts shown by the Royal Navy to reinforce its argument, saying: "The Iran-Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist. It has been drawn up by the British government."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/world/middleeast/01iran.html

...and now Iran has shown Britain a way out. An easy way to get the hostages back home. Lets see if Blair is bright enough to accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:16 AM

Hey, Guest - Why didn't Blair negotiate with Iran from the get-go instead of trying to get the U.N., the E.U. and the U.S. to back him up? He's not only a hypocrite but a wimp; a gutless wonder just like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:19 AM

I made a request in the help section that the guest post be deleted. It's in the 'Porn again' thread there. Hoped that would be attended to before you saw it.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:20 AM

Hey Dianavan, at last something we agree on, Guest is a gutless wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:47 AM

Dianavan,
"Has anybody ever delved into what the other merchant vessels in the vicinity may have witnessed? Haven't heard much about that have we? Why do you suppose that might be?"

Neither side has mentioned other ships.
Are they both trying to hide something?
Perhaps there were no other ships. None appears on any of the images.
One ship supporting Britain is obviously not enough to convince you.
How many would it take?
Are there enough ships in the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:48 AM

Guest, whatever you may think of another persons posts, there is never a need to become crude or show your own character in such a foul manner. Dianavan may appear harsh or off key to you but there is no need for such a personal attack. Please try putting your point across...your opinions of what is happening around you.
Dianavan, we have the belief in the UK that a person/persons are innocent until proven guilty and I pretty much tend to go with that until all the facts are out in the open, which I agree does not always happen but your criticism of Blair and the British Government appears to me, at this point unfounded.
There seems to be a trend in modern times to strike out at polititians, particularly those in the unenviable position of being at the head of a countrys' government.......you go along with that ethos, where I tend to wait and see. Even your own President seems to get attacked if he breathes out of the wrong nostril.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:43 PM

Thanks guys.

Its true I can be harsh but like I said, its only because I can't express my opinions face to face. The internet allows me to be bold. More women should take the opportunity because I find the give and take to be quite informative.

Keith - I remember hearing that the Brits had boarded other ships in the area on that day.

In any event, Blair looked anything but calm, collected and diplomatic. In fact his voice was quite shrill and was visibly distraught. That image gives the Iranians (and the rest of the world) the impression that he is out of control.

I also think that before he starts pointing the finger of outrage, he should consider his support of the U.S. who outsources and tortures their hostages - regardles of whether they are guilty or innocent.

btw - although I know the videos were staged, I couldn't help but notice that the sailors were smiling as if the whole thing was a joke. If they were being mistreated, I don't think they would be able to even fake a smile.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:15 PM

I guess I'm not the only one who thinks Blair is ridiculous. Instead of negotiating quietly, he has deceived the public and has chosen to portray himself as a tough guy.

"...impossible to say where a real, negotiated or adjudicated Iran-Iraq boundary might eventually lie. It is also why the instinct of both the Foreign Office and MoD was to play this quietly and negotiate our people back.

But the No10 spin doctors stepped in, seeing a propaganda opportunity to portray Blair as fighting evil Iranians.

Navy and Foreign Office experts were horrified at the notion of publishing that map.

In doing so we entrenched Blair's ridiculous boast that our 15 Navy personnel were definitely in Iraqi territorial seas, and claimed the right to dictate Iran's boundary."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391078-details/How+I+know+Blair+faked+Iran+map/article.do

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

"I guess I'm not the only one who thinks Blair is ridiculous. Instead of negotiating quietly, he has deceived the public and has chosen to portray himself as a tough guy."

Not by a long shot dianavan, though I give him much more credit than our guy Bush (doesn't say that much though). He (Bush) should not be allowed to even approch this incedient, though it may be to late, he already started to open his mouth. If Iran & England want to peacefully put this mess behind them their best bet is to ignore the US completely.
Everybody's trying to take this as a photo opp & beat their chest (I agree that you won't see a woman doing this, except maybe Thack-her) instead of trying to think it through clearly.
Establishing a definite border & a promise not to do it again would bring a welcome end to it all but it's clear that some folks don't want to swallow their own spit to spite themselves.
If that's the case I hope both will think twice after the punches start getting thrown.

At this point they both deserve each other for acting so foolish, right from the start.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,Can E Ball
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:15 PM

The poor Iranians should eat the hostages.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 10:12 PM

>>but, and this is the point, i am not aware of any conflict between the U.K and Iran. of all the unfortunate footage and pictures seen, i am not aware of any of them being of Iranian military personell. and you are right, Guantanamo bay is obviously no picnic, but i am not aware of any iranian military personell there either.<<

If that's your point, it's a mighty bad one. We are in teh Middle East invading other sovereign nations thinking we can tell them how to live, thinking we can force it on them at the point of a gun. Sorry, but Britain IS EVERY BIT AS GUILTY AS THE US AND DON'T YOU EVER FORGET IT! I'm sick to death of goddamn Britons acting like they can't understand why they're hated over there. OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES, YOU DUMBSHITS!

Britain is neck deep in the colonalism being perpetrated in the MIddle East via lies and deception. Britain HAS NO RIGHT to think they shouldn't be as much a target as the US. Britain is 100% complicit in this pathetic imperialist farce and they'd had better start to get it!!

Seems like the whole rest of the world knows it except Britain and that is starting to get really, really OLD!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:11 AM

Britain should stop playing the innocent victim. Anybody that has any sense of British history in the region knows that he has provoked this incident. Iran is very sensitive about that particular waterway and Blair knows it. British sailors were captured by in Iran in 2004 in Shaat al-arab. The British know that Saddam went to war with Iran because of that waterway.

Blair referred to a bogus map and bogus boundaries. Those boundaries do not exist! Saddam tore up the agreement that Iran and Iraq once had. There are no internationally recognized boundaries between Iran and Iraq at this time.

The Brits created an international incident as an excuse to invade Iran. Luckily the U.N. and the E.U did not fall for Tony's act. Hopefully, the world will tell Blair to admit his error and the hostages will be returned.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:29 AM

Dianavan, as I have just said on the other thread, if the map is a fake, the Iranians are using the SAME fake map.
The map they show has exactly the same border shown, but with different locations marked.
The co ordinates at first given by Iran put the arrest on the Iraqi side. When that was pointed out, Iran changed their co ordinates but not the line.
Re other ships, yes other ships were checked. No claims have emerged from them of being illegally borded.
This dispute is confined to a tiny area. Even the Iranians are only claiming to have been 500 metres (600 yards) inside their line. Other ships within a few miles are of no interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:59 AM

"OK, that established, now, heres the idea, P.O.W´s, that meaning "PRISONERS OF WAR" can only be held and detained for the duration of any WAR. P.O.W´s can only be members of bonafide military organisations, otherwise they have to be tried and detained, executed, or released. It is also worth pointing out that any P.O.W held, has to be treated in accordance to the Geneva Convention, thus making it illegal to parade captured persons as some kind of trophy."

Well, you can thank the Americans for leveling what (if any) moral high ground they held before this entire farce started. It was they who designated people as 'Enemy Combatants' to circumvent the Geneva Convention and violate their human rights. They are quite happy to torture individuals in secret CIA facilities, parade them on the TV (as they did with Saddam) and hold them without trial or access to any NGO's or legal aid. Blair is party to these outrages, complicit in the US programme of detention and torture and so has no moral integrity left - this is why the Iranians can get away with kidnapping these servicemen/woman. This is why the wider Arab world supports them, and why they will not come out of this looking like the villans.

Watching B.Lair bluster and spew forth his self-righteous crap is quite pathetic, and his toady Beckett seems unable to grasp the internal schisms that rent Iranian politics - she is most probably talking to someone who doesn't even know where the hostages are being held. The old colonial power is reaping what it sowed so many years ago, as well as the rewards of a close partnership with the Empire of the USA - and it's not pretty to watch.

"The Brits created an international incident as an excuse to invade Iran"

You don't actually believe this do you Dianavan? What a laugh! What are they going to invade with, the W.I.? They don't have enough troops to fight in Afghanistan, let alone invade a country that will put up a fight.

The Loch Ness Monster, by the way, is in all probability a giant eel. This is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:02 AM

OOh 282ra, my my you are upset, Can you not see that i am not defending my countries involvement in the war, but merely pointing out that as a country the U.K has no conflict with the country of Iran.... yes they dont like us, yes my country has a history of colonialism barbarity etc etc, but we are not at war with Iran, they have no mandate of which to hold these personel. these are bonafide military persons, not terrorist suspects, car thiefs etc. and also Dianavan, if there is no fixed border on this waterway, does this make the taking of these hostages even more bizzare.


WHEN YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO SHOUTING AND SWEARING TO TRY TO MAKE YOUR POINT,,,,,,,,,,YOU HAVE LOST!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

Certain people have already made their minds up and sat in judgement on both the UK and Blair....let's just see what transipres shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 12:19 PM

stigweard - No, I do not believe Britain would "go it alone" and invade Iran. I do believe that they would try to get the U.N., the E.U. and the U.S. to fight the battle for (with) them.

Keith and Blindlemon - Iran knows that Saddam (Iraq) wanted to take that waterway. For the same reasons the U.S./Britain would want that waterway for the present day Iraq. In fact, if they are planning war with Iran, it is strategically important. Iran, on the other hand, would want to make sure that they control that waterway for defense.

Its a sensitive area. British sailors have been abducted there before. Why was Britain have to go anywhere near Iranian territory? They knew the risks. Why did the Cornwall and the helicopter leave the British sailors so vulnerable in such disputed territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:45 PM

"Why did the Cornwall and the helicopter leave the British sailors so vulnerable in such disputed territory?"

There has been talk the Revolutionary Guards had this whole caper planned in advance - the number of Iranian boats that appeared indicates this might be true.

Anyhow, although the gulf is inundated with trigger-happy lunatics it seems a wise choice for the Cornwall to keep her distance and not engage the Iranians, leading to a potentially very dangerous situation. Shows a bit of intelligent thinking on behalf of the ship's Captain - at least i shows not everybody in the coalition is gripped with the American lust for gore - thank god.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM

Asking why the Brits were there is a non issue. They were and are there at the behest of both the UN and Iraq. Thinking they provoked the issue is not good thinking because it overlooks what Iran has done. The over reaction by Iranian forces is for their agenda, not Britain's. People inside the Iraq administration have said that the event was pre-planned and had been for a while. However, I'd guiess that if Bush can shut his fucking mouth, the prisoners/unwilling guests/hostages will be returned within a week. Talks seem to be moving apace.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:06 PM

Nice to know that some people can at least use thought and assess things without the need to attack without evidence. Hi Brucie How are ya?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:10 PM

Miserable as always. How are you, GS?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:56 PM

Getting by friend getting by. Never imagined you as being miserable!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 08:30 PM

>>OOh 282ra, my my you are upset, Can you not see that i am not defending my countries involvement in the war, but merely pointing out that as a country the U.K has no conflict with the country of Iran.... yes they dont like us, yes my country has a history of colonialism barbarity etc etc, but we are not at war with Iran,<<

Once again, open your damn eyes! Of course, you're at war with them. They wouldn't have taken those sailors hostage if they thought Britain was anyone they could or should trust. Britain is right alongaise America licking its butt so why should Iran trust them?

As for this amazingly specious argument that Britain wasn't in Iranian waters ask yourself how Britain would react if a Syria-Iran coalition invaded Scotland, threatened England and then started massing on the approaches of its territorial waters--even if they weren't in its territorial waters. I do not believe for a second that Britain would be stupid enough to ignore that or shrug and say they're in international waters so there's nothing you anyone can do about it. I don't believe that for a second. Britain would go out and do something to let Syria-Iran no that they are not going to tolerate this aggression and that they should go the fuck home where they belong. Iran may not be a beacon of righteousness and freedom but neither are we. In the end, we're just an aggressor nation threatening and bullying those that have oil under them. To hell with Britain. I can't even bring myself to respect them sinc they were stupid enough to assist this nutcase loon Bush. Just desserts, I call it.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282URA Wayne Kerr
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:10 PM

So you agree that they were in international waters?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

I don't know. How would I know? Someone here said they were and i say it makes no difference. Even if they were, so what? We're still in their area of the world and we're threatening them. Flat out, Iran has done absolutely nothing wrong. They've nothing I wouldn't do, they've done nothing Britain wouldn't do, nothing the US wouldn't under the same circumstances. In the end, we are the aggressor not them and the aggressor is always wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:30 AM

282r
I have to challenge you, Great Britain is not at War with Iran,,,,,, there has been no declaration of war on either side...that said, these HOSTAGES that have been taken are Not P.O.W,s.


Yes Iran hates us for many reasons, yes we are in theyre part of the world, yes, if the Iranians military were in the English channel, i would expect them to be picked up and questioned,,,,,,, but i wouldnt expect them to be paraded around like trophies, i would expect them to be released within 24 hours,,,, western military personell in Berlin were routinely picked up when in East Berlin or too near to the wall, and questioned by the East german authorities, they were never held longer than 24 hours, there are procedures in these circumstances that should be followed, I am sorry,but Iran is in the Wrong.

My argument isnt about how Britain came to be there, how prisoners are treated in Guantanimo, Abhu Grahib etc, or even what happened under the British Empire, its straight down the line.......they should not still be incarcerated by the Iranians..... The Iranians are showing themselves up for what they are 2nd rate military, run by 3rd rate government. Its nothing personal, if they were Dutch soldiers i would have the same argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:29 PM

>>282r
I have to challenge you, Great Britain is not at War with Iran,,,,,,<<

It would not appear that Iran agrees, does it?

>>there has been no declaration of war on either side...that said, these HOSTAGES that have been taken are Not P.O.W,s.<<

There was no declaration of war when Britain and the US invaded Iraq either and yet there we are and with our secret little prisons bursting with POWs.

>>Yes Iran hates us for many reasons, yes we are in theyre part of the world, yes, if the Iranians military were in the English channel, i would expect them to be picked up and questioned,,,,,,, but i wouldnt expect them to be paraded around like trophies, i would expect them to be released within 24 hours,,,, <<

At least by being paraded around you know they're alive and you know they're not being mistreated. The sad truth is, oh-so villainous Iran is treating those people far, far better than the US and Britain has treated Muslims and Arabs they've captured. Those sailors were even allowed to write home. How many captured Muslims were given that courtesy? While many captured Muslims have been returned to their families, a great many have not and their only crime was to be a male of recruitable age in an area thought to be high in ruitment.

>>western military personell in Berlin were routinely picked up when in East Berlin or too near to the wall, and questioned by the East german authorities, they were never held longer than 24 hours,<<

Did you invade Germany? No. Did you threaten Germany's neighbors? No. It's a totally different situation. If I were leader of Iran, it would be my duty to defend my nation and people from invasion or attack by outsiders. Iran was right to do what they did and if Britain doesn't like it, shut up and go home. Oh, and by the way, you're never going to get those people back as long as Bush keeps running his fat, fithy sewer. But, as usual, you dumb fucking Brits don't have the balls to tell him to shut up and so you deserve everything that's happening to you and I find it all highly amusing. No sympathy whatsoever. You don't deserve it. You're imperialists finally getting what you have coming. So cry me a river, I'll just go fishing in it.

>>there are procedures in these circumstances that should be followed, I am sorry,but Iran is in the Wrong.<<

Oh, like the time some British soldiers got themselves arrested by local Iraqis and the British army sent a tank over to knock the fucking down? That kind of respect of protocol and procedure? Sorry, but those sailors can stay in Iran and rot for all I care.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:07 PM

2A2RA - You forgot one:

Blindlemonsteve said: "The Iranians are showing themselves up for what they are 2nd rate military..."

Thats a laugh. Tell that to Iraq when Saddam (backed by the U.S.) decided to go to war with Iran. Tell that to the British soldiers who were abducted by Iranian soldiers in a couple of small boats when the Cornwall and a British helicopter were nearby.

Maybe you think they're second rate because they haven't invaded another country in recent history. Maybe its because they have only defended themselves against aggression. Maybe you think they're second rate because they don't have nuclear weapons.

Considering that Iran doesn't have nuclear weapons, I think Iran still has a military not to be messed with. For Iran to maintain control of their oil fields while surrounded by U.S./British forces on one side in Iraq, NATO forces in Afghanistan on the other, and Arabs all around, they're pretty amazing - never mind Russia bearing down on them in the past. I'd like to see Britain survive that kind of pressure on their country.

Its a good thing you're not in a position of power. By thinking that Iran has a 2nd rate military, you could get your country in alot of trouble. Anyone who thinks an invasion of Iran would be a piece of cake, should think again.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:01 PM

If i were in a position of power, we would never have been in Iraq in the first place. Seems i´m never going to get my point across, so i´m going to sit back and listen to you all chew the fat,Dianavan and 282r, thankyou for the last few days, its been thought provoking, i´ll catch up with you other threads, i´m sure we can cross swords again. i kind of get the feeling that were never going to agree on many things, but lets not let that get in the way of a good debate.....


Remember,,,, just because i dont agree with what you say, it doesnt mean i wouldnt fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

Cheers
see ya all soon

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM

"I'd like to see Britain survive that kind of pressure on their country."

If there's one thing Britain has shown, it is that it can withstand considerable pressure of the military type.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:03 PM

On their borders?

All alone?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:41 PM

Iran has a bigger population than Iraq, way more land area, much harsher terrain (if you can believe that), a bigger and much better organized military.

If we couldn't beat Iraq when we were at full strength, we are NOT going to beat Iran with a miltary this exhausted. And Iran knows it all too well. Britain won't make war on Iran because Britain apparently can't do anything without the US to hold its little hand and the US is not going to go to war with Iran because it can't.

Finally, Ahmadinejad was democratically elected and we cannot topple him and maintain the facade that we give a shit about spreading democracy in the Middle East.

Britain has no choice--apologize, get your people back and LEAVE! Go! Get out while the getting's good! Stop supporting US imperialism--we're crazy, we're nuts! Stay away from us, it's the best thing Britain can do for itself. For god's sake--LEAVE!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Maxine
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

I have read this debate with great interest. I don't pretend to know very much about Middle Eastern conflicts, however, I know that they are very real and obviously stir huge emotions amongst us all.

As an English woman, a mother of a son the same age as many of these sailors, I just want these young men brought home to their families safely. They are our young men and regardless of what people may feel about Bush/Blair, these men enlisted in the British military services because they felt it the right thing to do and we should be praying for their safe return because they are human beings, with families and have the same hopes and dreams for their lives that anyone would have.

Guest 282RA, how you can say you don't mind if these young men "stay in Iran and rot" is beyond me and I'm sure beyond most civilised, ordinary human beings. I've read your postings, you make very good points and yes, Brits are absolutely not blameless but I really think you should kerb some of your tasteless view points - and perhaps your language?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:18 PM

>>Guest 282RA, how you can say you don't mind if these young men "stay in Iran and rot" is beyond me and I'm sure beyond most civilised, ordinary human beings.<<

If Britain is going to assist the US in this mad scheme the run the world then Iran can keep them. I really don't care abou them. I was a sailor and I did time in the Middle East. It's something you have to take into account before you join. It's like being cop--don't become a cop and cry about being shot at by criminals. It comes with the territory. When you join the service, you join with the knoweldge that you are willing to carry out whatever your govt wants you to and that you might get killed or captured in the process and if you do--tough cookies. That's not me talking either--that is the military itself. These people knew the score when they joined and if they didn't they're stupid but at least they kow the score now. And, don't worry, they'll be released. I don't know when but they'll eventually come home.

>>I've read your postings, you make very good points and yes, Brits are absolutely not blameless but I really think you should kerb some of your tasteless view points - and perhaps your language?<<

I will do neither because I am pissed off. My America has turned into something I don't recognize. This new America has become the very type of nation I was taught as a boy to hate. And I do hate such nations and now I am forced to hate the one I live in and in which I defended and protected with my life for 6 years. Now, I wonder why I bothered. I didn't give 6 years of my life to defend THIS!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:01 PM

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is the guy who has the power to make policy in Iran, not Ahmadinejad. Please note that it is the 'Islamic Republic of Iran'. Please note that very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:03 PM

Yes, and he has said that if Iran is assaulted, they will strike back. What makes him so different, politically, than any other head of state? Don't most countries want to defend their territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:05 PM

He is a religious fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:01 AM

Do you feel that way about all religions or just his religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:30 AM

Blair wakes up and tells his wife;
"I just dreamed we won the war"
What war dear?
"It was, it was, oh nevermind, it was the Falklands"

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:32 AM

None of your fucking business, Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 02:14 AM

"Iran

Respect for basic human rights in Iran, especially freedom of expression and opinion, deteriorated considerably in 2005. The government routinely uses torture and ill-treatment in detention, including prolonged solitary confinement, to punish dissidents. The judiciary, which is accountable to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, has been at the center of many serious human rights violations. Abuses are perpetrated by what Iranians call "parallel institutions": paramilitary groups and plainclothes intelligence agents violently attack peaceful protesters, and intelligence services run illegal secret prisons and interrogation centers. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, elected in June 2005, appointed a cabinet dominated by former members of the intelligence and security forces, some of whom are allegedly implicated in the most serious human rights violations since the Islamic Republic of Iran was established twenty-six years ago, such as the assassination of dissident intellectuals."

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:21 AM

Into these hands have fallen fifteen young people who go out and fight for us for not very much money.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

Into these hands have fallen fifteen young people who were not being aggressive towards Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:42 AM

Dianavan...you seem to 'come across' as being the 'expert' on the situation......what did the Iranians not want them to find on the cargo vessel please?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:06 AM

Smuggled cars? and I'm selling the Broklyn Bridge! I doubt that they wanted them to find anything, it's not klike anyone's sending out invitations. What were the Brits hoping to find? Smuggled cars?

Can anyone find references that says the Brits were mandated by the UN to patrol these waters in the 1st place, I can't & that seems to be an issue that's floating under the bridge & one that Russia's been questioning.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:11 PM

Barry,

The closest I could come is Resolution 1737. Here's a link to it. (Scroll down a bit.) Please see Article 7 on p.4 of the document.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:13 PM

However, that kinda makes the "we were looking for cars" statement a bit out to lunch.

The marines and sailors are being released and they'll leave Iran on Thursday (tomorrow).

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:21 PM

Being released without apology by anyone...just as a gift to Britain.... I was once given a jack-in-the-box...... I also had a 'Trojan Horse' on my comp...... A very nice gesture if done with no motive other than to improve relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:41 PM

Ain't that the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:23 PM

I certainly haven't seen anything that says Britain has a U.N. mandate to search merchant vessels for smuggled cars. Perhaps they thought the vessel was smuggling parts for nuclear reactors or weapons but that doesn't make sense either (unless the vessel was going to Iran). I thought it was very clear that the cars were on their way to Iraq. Besides that, we don't even know for sure what flag the merchant vessel was flying, where it came from or where it was bound.

The whole thing was very fishy and if the Brits can't explain it, no wonder Iran had their nose out of joint.

I'm glad the Brits were returned with only a little slap on the hand. I wish Bush would follow suit and return the Iranians or at least confirm their well-being. Who knows where they are and what has happened to that unfortunate lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:49 PM

Take a downer, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:10 PM

Eat shit, Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:17 PM

It's still up in the air whether or not the Brits were over the line that doesn't exist. However, the Iranians pulled a beautiful PR move in the way they released the prisoners. It would be good if Bush released the Iranians he's holding in Iraq, but he's probably too slow on the uptake to clue in to that. Of course, it begs the question: What were those Iranians doing in Iraq? Does anyone know (no, not you, Ms. I don't need the party line.)

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:21 PM

>>What were those Iranians doing in Iraq?<<

The Iranians?? What the fuck are WE doing there??

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:37 PM

LOL

Too true. But I'd still like to know what THEY are doing there. Probably the same thing as the US. Looking for Saddam Hussein and WMDs.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 10:40 PM

"The Iraqi Foreign Ministry continues to push for the release of five Iranians detained during a U.S. military raid in January, Iraq's Deputy Foreign Minister Labid Abawi told CNN on Tuesday."

As we all know, there are two sides to every story so be sure to read why Iraqi, Kurd and Iranian stories differ from the U.S. story. It seems to center around whether the Iranians were diplomats and whether or not the meeting place was an embassy and/or consulate.

Apparently the Iranians were invited by the Kurds and the U.S. raided the place and arrested the wrong guys in a case of mistaken identities. Iraq is lobbying for their release.

Let me know when you have it figured out.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:42 PM

"Iranian officials have said that the men are diplomats. Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister and a Kurd, said in a telephone interview on Tuesday that although the men being held were not officially diplomats, they had nevertheless been acting as liaisons between Iraq and Iran."

Lots of people are having difficulties 'getting it straight'.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:08 AM

So these two guys...hard men...meet in a pub and one feels the other is looking at him in the wrong way...get my drift?...so he flexes his muscles and approaches him. "Why are you looking at me like that"?
His hackles immediately raised, the other guy replies that he will look where he likes, at who he likes and when he likes. An exchange ensues with both flexing their muscles and prancing around aggressively until one says "I will back off now as a present to you"

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:31 AM

What I fail to understand is why the Iraqis have to lobby the U.S. for the release of Iranians captured in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: s&r
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 05:00 AM

Not much happening in BC then?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 05:58 AM

Dianavan just a quick note to a previous post...about Britain surviving Military pressure all alone.......1940......Britain stood alone in its fight against the Nazi threat, the soviets had cosied up to hitler and shared poland, France had fallen, the U.S was giving aid, this is true, but not arms, they were also getting ready to do business with a Nazi europe, whatever your thoughts are, you can not take away from the British people of that generation the fact that they suffered harshly, and stood together alone. and that standing, allowed for the opening of the western front a few years later.
Sorry, i wasnt going to get back into this thread, but i felt i had to on this point...
Bye for now

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

"What I fail to understand is why the Iraqis have to lobby the U.S. for the release of Iranians captured in Iraq."

Iraq is now a US colony & no longer an occupied nation!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 11:39 PM

In regard to Blair's righteous indignation -

"Suddenly, it was a new day with Bush and Blair fully committed to international law. Even a relatively minor Geneva transgression, such as filming captives eating, became a justification for unrestrained outrage."

This is an excellent article. Well worth the read. Its about the U.S./Britain and their double standards.

...and I do think Iran did a good job of exposing the hypocricy of so-called "western values". They never said a thing about it, they just showed the world what the U.S. and Britain are all about. Anyone who still thinks the U.S. and Britain are somehow morally superior will have to re-think the way they treat their hostages compared to the way Iran treated theirs.

Iran definitely has the moral high road and this has not been lost on other countries, especially in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:06 AM

Dianavan..you are as easily if not more easily conned than the next person. Do you really believe all you have written on this thread in your 'stand alone' views? We are fed information from various sources and yours is only one....whose source is correct is a matter of conjecture but you are so obviously always right we cannot present an adequate argument against your fine words.
Not sure if it has been fed back to you yet but on UK TV, the picture being painted is of the 'Hostages' from our Navy/marines were mostly kept in solitary confinement....they were blindfolded and guns were cocked behind them..making them believe they were going to be shot...they had no other choice but to go along with the TV interviews and the supposed 'fun time' they were having which was being presented to the press. They knew they were in Iraqui waters not Iranian but under duresse had to admit to it and apologise on TV
Iran has certainly made a coup of some sort....with you anyway!!
Blair made all the right decisions! They paid off!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:28 AM

A lot of people weren't fooled by those pictures of the hostages enjoying themselves. They were also threatened with 7 years hard labour if they didn't confess.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 06:21 AM

How to treat innocent prisoners, read John McGuffin`s, Internment and The Guinea Pigs, both free on the Web, Britain found guilty twice by the European Court of Human Rights for, Inhuman and Degrading treatment of Irish detainees.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:12 AM

Iran is the country where(within living memory) they used to routinely rape children detainees because their religion didn't permit them to execute virgins.

It has one of the worse records, if not the worst record on human rights with Amnesty International, in the world. It defers to no international court or tribunal, so you won't find any judgements against it.

the idea of those buggers having the moral highground of anywhere outside of Auswitchz would be laughable, if it were slightest bit funny.

The Iranians are one of the most cultured and civilised people in the world, bu they have a really shit government. Originally eased into power by the US in the 70's.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: guitar
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:22 AM

really!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 09:25 AM

Really what....?

you'd have to poke about the Amnesty website to see if its still the case. the allegations were certainly around a long time.

as for the US involvement - all I can say is that it seemed that way at the time.

When the Shah was in power there was general chorus of disapproval from most left tingers in England.He had a secret police and they used torture. Private Eye called him The Shit of Iran.,

However he wanted a westernised country. There was a sharp intake of breath when he appeared on Panorama and he pointed out his country had a popul;ation size not to different from England and his aim was that they should be similar sorts of countries.

To this end English public schools and Technical Colleges and Universities had loads of Iranian students getting 'westernised' as best they could.


The shah was deposed - he always claimed it was because England and America had withdrawn military and economic support due to pressure from ill informed left wingers.

Somehow it became known that when Khomeini returned, things would kick off bigtime. there would be an Islamic revolution such as the world had never seen before. However Khomeini was in Paris, where he had lived in exile - under surveillance and something of an unknown quantity. Would he allowed to back and initiate a new dark age?

the decision to seemed devolve upon the shoulder of the then British Foreign Secretatry, David Owen and his American opposite number (Andy Young....I think). Owen and Young were good mates - they weny ogging in Hyde Park together followed by some sort of perfuctory conference and Khomeini (described somewhere as holy man -some kind of saint) was set loose.


There was a feeling not long after that Owen had fucked up bigtime on this issue.

That was a worms eye view of what happened. I may have it all wrong, but thats how it seemed.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: s&r
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 12:59 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:04 PM

Iran

Human Rights Concerns

Amnesty International continues to document serious human violations including detention of human rights defenders and other prisoners of conscience, unfair trials, torture and mistreatment in detention, deaths in custody and the application of the death penalty. Iran has one of the highest number of recorded executions of any country in the world. Amnesty International is particularly concerned about the execution of children and individuals who were minors when their crimes were alleged to have taken place. In one case, an 18-year-old girl, Nazanin, was sentenced to be executed for having, at age 17, stabbed to death one of three men in a park who were attempting to rape her and her younger niece.

Amnesty International's Human Rights Concerns for Iran »
Demand an End to Stoning

Up to nine women and two men in Iran are under sentence of execution by stoning, including one woman who was convicted of adultery and who claimed she was forced into prostitution. Amnesty International's Secretary General Irene Khan has called on the Iranian government to abolish stoning on the occasion of the fourth World Day Against the Death Penalty on October 10, 2006.


Latest News
Iran : Arrests of demonstrators continue
March 16, 2007

International Women's Day: Irene Khan and Shirin Ebadi call for end to discrimination against women in Iran
March 07, 2007

Iran: Arrests of women may be an attempt to prevent International Women's Day calls for equality
March 05, 2007

Iran: Ethnic minorities facing new wave of human rights violations
February 26, 2007

Iran: Amnesty International concerned at continuing harassment of journalists and women's rights activists
February 07, 2007

Iran: Four Iranian Arabs executed after unfair trials
January 24, 2007

Latest Reports
Iran: Appeal Case: Abbas Lisani - Prisoner of Conscience
February 01, 2007

Iran: Threat of execution of seven women and a man by stoning
January 31, 2007

Iran: Appeal case, Saleh Kamrani - Human Rights Defender and Lawyer
December 20, 2006

Iran: Human Rights Defender at risk: Abdolfattah Soltani - Appeal case update
December 06, 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:24 PM

And this shows us what Peace? That their society may be slightly more opressive than ours? We're not that different in our treatment of our own or of our treatment of others for that matter. Try to make another point.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:32 PM

Don't be so aggressive, Barry. The post was for WLD. Yes, Iran abuses its citizens. I think your country abuses its citizens, but just because I didn't take the opportunity to slag the USA in that post should not be read by you as an indication I think the USA does not deserve slagging. Canada has its issues also.

I think Iran is one of the more repressive governments in the world. I don't give a shit whether or not you agree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:53 PM

Part of the problem with this thread is the thread. It begins with the premise that Blair is a hypocrite (which he may or may not be) and in order to prove he is, it requires people to either tacitly or explicitly support Iran. Iran at present is not a country worth supporting. It has a miserable human rights recortd and has had for decades. People then say that was caused by the USA (and Russia had its hands in there, too) and whether or not that is true, it does not deal with the fact that TODAY, Iran is repressive, and in some ways barbaric.

So, people dig into Persian history and support how civilized Iran is! NO! That is how civilized Iran WAS.

Case in point. I posted to a thread where 'Christian' countries were taking the piss for all the invasions they have done. In fact, the thread argument had shifeted to the Crusades and the slaughters of people done by 'Christians'. My post named countries that had been invaded by 'Islam' hundreds of years ago. Fact is, Muslims are no more peaceful than Christians. The problem is one of what's arguable and what isn't. When a person has to support a country like Iran in order to slag a nation like the UK, it simply means people are saying they think Iranian bastards are better than British bastards.

How many of you support the government of Iran: its abuse of citizens, specifically women; its gun running, its contributions to the deaths of children in other countries? How many of you?

Wait. I can hear it now: The USA caused it. Bullshit. The Neocons in Iran are NO better than the Neocons in the USA or Britain for that matter. Check your own morality in this issue. You support a theocracy, the same theocracy you dislike in the USA. Give it a rest yourself. Make another point.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 02:18 PM

>>Dianavan..you are as easily if not more easily conned than the next person. Do you really believe all you have written on this thread in your 'stand alone' views? We are fed information from various sources and yours is only one....whose source is correct is a matter of conjecture but you are so obviously always right we cannot present an adequate argument against your fine words.
Not sure if it has been fed back to you yet but on UK TV, the picture being painted is of the 'Hostages' from our Navy/marines were mostly kept in solitary confinement....they were blindfolded and guns were cocked behind them..making them believe they were going to be shot...they had no other choice but to go along with the TV interviews and the supposed 'fun time' they were having which was being presented to the press. They knew they were in Iraqui waters not Iranian but under duresse had to admit to it and apologise on TV
Iran has certainly made a coup of some sort....with you anyway!!
Blair made all the right decisions! They paid off!<<

I suppose you think your source is the only one that's right. You don't anymore about what went on than I do. And I claim to know nothing at all about it mainly because I don't care. Iran was in their rights to do what they did and it wasn't anything the US and Britain wouldnn't have done under the same circumstances.

As far as the TV images being all show it still makes Iran look better than the US. We can't even do that right. When we show pictures of how we treat Muslim detainees, I'll guarantee you people around the world recoiled way more than they did when they saw pictures of the British detainees. About the only people recoiling at that are Britons and Americans who, quite frankly, aren't deserving of sympathy after telling the rest of the world to shove diplomacy up their ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 02:23 PM

Part of what I see is that in oder to show that Iran isn't worth supporting, Iran's policies are being thrown up like a window shade & their the same policies & practices that I see in the same nations that on the window shade next door. One deserves no better treatment or exposure the the other or no worst either but don't go holding one up next to the other in a picturesque fashion without showing them or all in the same light. There's quite a bit of shading going on here.

I do agree that Iran has some big time persnally qurkes but Iran isn't over here patroling within site of any of my borders that I can see nor do I hear about them off the British coast either. You are throwing stones in a glass house.

Blair is not only a hypocrite he's far worst & like Bush does not deserve the support of their people & it's just the same in Iran. They ingauge in the same atrocities & their records are in now way to be held up as a comparison for anyone to proudly veiw.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:08 PM

Well Barry - theres hypocrisy, and then again there's hypocrisy.

I sort of know where people like you and Diana are coming from . My parents were very very left wing. They thought Kruschev was the hero of the Cuba missile crisis - a model of self restraint, despite the fact that he had enslaved half of of Europe.

Similarly I think you are turning your back on the fact that SOMEONE is paying for all these murders going on in Iraq, and stopping democratic process being set up there. Someone is behind all these terrible things like 9/11 - recruiting young people as Muslim terrorists. And ones attention is immediately grabbed by those who walk the walk and talk the talk.

Its pretty bloddy silly prancing round with a few technical infringements of England and America in war situations that Amnesty has come up with - rather than the truck load of depostions that Amnesty has come up with againg Iran.

if you need it for a sense of identity - fair enough, but jeering at the discomfiture of the English as they watch a group of their young people fall into the hands of people whos records of monstrous cruelty. Well it makes you look just plain weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:26 PM

Weelittledrummer, if ya don't want your young people falling into the hands of people who's records show monstrrous cruelty then don't send them there. Otherwise wait until they come to your shores & start their patrols. But if you think that what we're doing in the middle east is somewhat of a noble adventure or gesture you keep puffy & blowing & beating your chest that will do you fine. As far as whose paying for the murders in Iraq, the allied nations are paying for them & commiting them, if you still think that 9/11 had something to do with Iraq & us being there then you can keep believing it if you need to, I don't. Are we now policing nations according to Amnesty International. We'd be far better off tending our own gardens of delight 1st. But seeing that all is so well with you & yours feel free to invade others & bring the democratic process down on the heads of innocent people while stripping them of the few rights that they might've once had & replace those with their own blood. We're doing a fine job at it wouldn't ya say. Keep cheering, you got God & the King on your side.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:01 PM

They are on my streets and your streets - it must take an act of willful blindness not to notice the odd tube station and world trade centre going off with a pop occasionally.

And don't you dare accuse me of being a Queen and country patriot - you monstrous blob of moral superiority!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:15 PM

Now, now, weelittledrummer, you want to be condscending towards me & peg me in a hole with your parents, with whom you should show more respect for their leftist ways then back yourself up some & check out our own self first. You do flag wave for your Queen & country, you back the part & play of the Blair & Bush policy so as I see it your shoe fits well so keep on wearing it. I'll let you know if I see any of those bogeymen on my streets or yours but the ones that were here were no from any nation that we've attacked. In fact they represented no nation at all, just a gang of thugs pretending to be the angels of death. ANd here you go on beliving that they were sent by Iran or Iraq. Get real.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:21 PM

"just a gang of thugs pretending to be the angels of death"

Lots of that going around. I wonder where the funding is coming from?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:30 PM

That's not a dig at anyone.

The US, Britain, Iran, Iraq,--name it, have been funding terrorist organizations. The only commonality is that plain folks in this world are paying for the shit governments do. The world has more wars going on, millions starving, people being slaughtered, and I'd ask this: Is anyone here in favour of that stuff? They are bastards all. Too many people here think their bastard is more righteous than the other guy's. I gotta hot flash for y'all. They's bastards, plain and simple. And all the 'he pushed me back first' ain't gonna accomplish jackshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:51 PM

2A2RA - explained it well. "As far as the TV images being all show it still makes Iran look better than the US."

Thats exactly what I was referring to and I mean today, not somewhere in the past. If you compare the way the 15 Brits were handled to the way the the U.S. handles their detainees, Iran definitely comes out on top. Its a propaganda war and Iran is winning in the court of public opinion. Who cares if 15 Brits say they were kept in solitary and 'psychologically' tortured? Lets see the hoods, the bended knees, the bloody faces, the bruises, the noose and the bowed heads. Thats what we saw the U.S. doing to their detainees and Blair is cheering the U.S. admininstration and everything they do.

Yes, Iran has a terrible human rights record. They are a theocracy. Of the list you provided, Peace, there are perhaps 14 possible incidents of torture. Compare that to the number of people who are being tortured by the Bush and his lapdog, Blair, the defenders of democracy!

Weelittledrummer - Get over it. This is not about your teen-aged rebellion. Start paying attention instead of reacting to fear and propaganda. Iraq had nothing to do with 911 or terrorism. It is the occupation of Iraq by the U.S. that is responsible for the recent recruiting of terrorists.

The U.S. does not want the democratically elected majority, Shiite government to succeed. Iran is helping the Shiites of Iraq. It is the al-Qaeda/Sunni/Arabs who are responsible for the insurgency, the terror and most of the murders occurring in Iraq. Who do you think might be helping them and why?

Figure it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 09:43 AM

Well done Tony your diplomatic approach worked