BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion

Subject: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 01:12 PM

From todays Washington Post:

Political Orphans In 2008
Is There Space for Our Pro-Life Ethic?

By Liz McCloskey and Peter Leibold
Tuesday, January 22, 2008; Page A19

In this political season, with all the talk about the role of faith in public life, we as a Catholic couple feel very much at home in the conversation and yet still homeless with respect to a perfectly compatible political party or candidate.

When we were born in the early 1960s, it was possible to be both a Democrat and a Catholic without any agonizing pangs of conscience. John F. Kennedy was president; John Courtney Murray was a public theologian; Pope John XXIII was opening a window to the world at the Second Vatican Council. But as we came of age politically, we felt orphaned by the Democratic Party, whose pro-life positions on war, poverty and the environment did not extend to the life of the most weak and vulnerable, those not yet born.

While the moderate wing of the Republican Party provided us a foster home when we worked on the Senate staff of John C. Danforth (R-Mo.), with the likes of former senator Mark O. Hatfield (R-Ore.) and others, the Grand Old Party's move to the right, including its hardening, dominant positions on the Iraq war, access to guns and the death penalty, among other issues, have made it an inhospitable place for us to dwell permanently.

During many elections we find ourselves facing the same dilemma: Which of our values must take a back seat when we go to the voting booth? Do we let our moral concern for peaceful resolutions of conflict, the environment, addressing poverty and aggressive enforcement of civil rights guide our choices? Or do we stand firm on another important issue of conscience and signal our hope for an end to abortion? Often, both choices leave a bad taste in our mouths.

Another option is to simply forget the moral questions and vote our pocketbooks. The two of us have slightly different perspectives on the wisest economic policies to be followed by the federal government, neither of which is embodied perfectly by the dominant political parties. But adopting a moral blindness in the voting booth is simply not an option for those of us who hold religious values dear.

Today's March for Life in Washington brings home this problem. The assumption of abortion opponents is that anyone serious about his or her desire to see an end to abortion will vote for the "pro-life" candidate. Yet there is rarely a candidate, and certainly not a political party, that embodies the consistent ethic of life that would make casting a truly pro-life vote a simple or straightforward choice. If the Democratic Party could adopt a much less disdainful, more welcoming, perhaps even "pro-choice" stance toward those under its tent who have conscientious objections to abortion, we would be much less squeamish about supporting its candidates, and we know that we are not alone in that conviction.

As the 2008 campaign unfolds, we will look for a candidate who will not use rhetoric or a tone seemingly designed to alienate those of us who simply cannot cheer for speeches celebrating the availability of abortion.

We don't see the right to abortion as an example of everything that is right with our democratic system. In fact, we mourn the poverty of a culture that views it as an option to harm the most vulnerable, even in the name of protecting other vulnerable people such as impoverished women and pregnant teenagers. While we may disagree with one another on the correct balance of legal restrictions, social policies and moral suasion that would best reduce the number of abortions, we both hope and pray for its eventual disappearance.

A party and a candidate that truly respect this viewpoint are ones that can adopt these two political orphans.

(end of article)
=====================================================

As someone who sees the need for the right to abortions, but decries the need for those abortions, I find it of interest that neither side is prepared to discuss the issue, but have established absolute lines that must be agreed with or one is the "enemy"

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 01:39 PM

If abortion had been legal in 1911, we might not have had to endure Ronald Reagan, and we might not be facing these kinds of decisions today.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 01:56 PM

If abortion had been legal in 1911,

it might have deprived us of Mahalia Jackson, Kenneth Patchen, Vincent Price, Phil Silvers, Big Joe Turner and Tennessee Williams.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Melissa
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:01 PM

I think they probably called it "Folk Medicine" at the time?

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:03 PM

Pennyroyal.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:23 PM

A false assumption that seems to be rather prevalent, for example in the last couple of posts - when abortion is illegal that means there aren't be any abortions.

And another largely unexamined false assumption is is that when abortion is legal, this means that women having abortions can be assumed to be exercising free choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: fat B****rd
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:47 PM

If abortion had been legal in 1946 I wouldn't have to endure me.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:50 PM

A return to illegal status for abortion would have about the same effect on the number of abortions performed as the current illegal status of Marijuana has upon the number of joints smoked. In the US, it would mean a major boon to the economies of several Mexican border towns. That's about all.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Melissa
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

except in areas not fairly near borders..where it would probably result in women dying from a do-it-yourself approach?

I do think it's absurd for candidates to work so hard at boasting their either/or attitude for touchy, divisive topics. It does seem to be a pretty good way to distract us from basing our voting preference on an entire candidate instead of making our choice based on a overall opinion of them though.
They're edited/abbreviated enough in how they promote themselves..the splintered emphasis topics are ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:25 PM

If the Democratic Party could adopt a much less disdainful, more welcoming, perhaps even "pro-choice" stance toward those under its tent who have conscientious objections to abortion, we would be much less squeamish about supporting its candidates, and we know that we are not alone in that conviction.

Nowhere has the Democratic Party said someone HAS to believe in the right to choose in order for someone to be a Democrat. "Conscientious Objectors" are welcome. It always bugs me when people bring up such an argument. They are missing the part about one party being more inclusive and diverse than the other.

Melissa is right. For women who live nowhere near the Mexican border, which would be a majority of American women, there would be nothing available but illegal operators, some of which may know what they are doing, while others would not. Many women would die.

IF right-to-lifers would stop their opposition, to such things as the Morning After Pill, family planning funding, and sex education, they might actually contribute to less of a need for abortions to be legally available. Until then, women will have to continue to work for the right to decide what is done with and to their own bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:27 PM

In the first place, the definition of life as beginning with conception is a religious one. In most discussions, it seems to be taken as fact. Not all religions agree that it is a human being with full constitutional rights, etc. upon conception. So the discussion is a religious discussion, and should be limited to pews and steeples rather than made a government intervention issue.

Having said that, I suggest that those who oppose abortion don't have one. I find it curious that one of the most outspoken abortion rights opponents, Leslie Unruh from (South Dakota? or somewhere out there) has had two abortions that she now would deny others. There is no middle ground. You are either pro-choice, where you allow others to have abortions, or you are anti-choice where you think the government shoud make the choice for women. The expression "pro-life" is not an accurate one. The correct and accurate one is "anti-choice."

It is also noteworthy that most opponents of abortion choice also would deny accurate sex education programs that might limit the need for greater numbers of abortions. It seems to me that they are not so much "pro-life" but anti-sex, period.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:00 PM

When a woman who is pregnant sees no alternative to abortion, because of economic or social pressure, that is not free choice.

Recognition of this, and a determination to do whatever can be done to change that should be common ground between people who are genuinely pro-choice and genuinely pro-life. And this is fairly clealry common griound on which the authors of the quoted artuicle would choose to stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:01 PM

That last GUEST (22 Jan 08 - 06:00 PM) was me, with a cookie that had gone astray.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:12 PM

"In the first place, the definition of life as beginning with conception is a religious one. In most discussions, it seems to be taken as fact. Not all religions agree that it is a human being with full constitutional rights, etc. upon conception. So the discussion is a religious discussion, and should be limited to pews and steeples rather than made a government intervention issue."


I agree. But of course you have to remember that some religions do not consider that "it is a human being with full constitutional rights, etc" until it is 13, or 18, years of age, or has had children. So I have to presume you would not object to killing those individuals if it was more convenient, since they are not fully human.


Above is sarcastic- The government HAS to act as a meeting ground for differing views, to determine what the SOCIETY as a whole ( rather than any one religious group or political viewpoint) will consider as the correct point to consider them human. Yet you do not seem to allow the discussion of this. ( nor does EITHER side)

The point is that BOTH sides have legitimate concerns and points to make, and BOTH sides refuse to have any kind of reasonable discussion about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:16 PM

Make people have babies, and then, when they're born, deny them health care. Yup. That's pro-life alright.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:28 PM

If people had the bloody sense to take precautions, there would be much less demand for abortions.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:45 PM

Ms. McCloskey To Wed in May
Published: April 5, 1987, NY Times

LEAD: Elizabeth Frances McCloskey, a candidate for a master's degree at the Yale Divinity School, and Peter Collins Leibold, a second-year student at the Yale Law School, plan to be married May 30.

Elizabeth Frances McCloskey, a candidate for a master's degree at the Yale Divinity School, and Peter Collins Leibold, a second-year student at the Yale Law School, plan to be married May 30.

The future bride is a daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Peter F. McCloskey of McLean, Va., who have announced her engagement to a son of Mr. and Mrs. Arthur W. Leibold Jr. of Washington.

Ms. McCloskey graduated from the College of William and Mary, where she was elected to Phi Beta Kappa. Her father is president of the Electronic Industries Association in Washington. The future bride is a granddaughter of the late Joseph M. and Frances M. McCloskey, who practiced law in the New York firm McCloskey & McCloskey.

Mr. Leibold, a graduate of the Georgetown Preparatory School, graduated from Haverford College and was elected to Phi Beta Kappa. His father is a partner in the Washington office of the law firm Dechert Price & Rhoads. His mother, Nora Leibold, is a special assistant and speechwriter for Senator J.Bennett Johnston, Democrat of Louisiana.

-----------------

PETER M. LEIBOLD, ESQ.
AMERICAN HEALTH LAWYERS ASSOCIATION
1025 CONNECTICUT AVENUE, N.W., SUITE 600
WASHINGTON, DC 20036-5405
TELEPHONE: [phone]
EMAIL: [e-mail]

Peter M. Leibold serves as the Executive Vice President and Chief Executive Officer of the American Health Lawyers Association (AHLA). Prior to accepting his job at the American Health Lawyers Association, Peter served as General Counsel to the Catholic Health Association (CHA) from 1996-99. He joined CHA after working at the law firm of Bryan Cave as a counsel from 1995-1996. For six years prior to his joining Bryan Cave, Peter served in three different capacities for Senator John C. Danforth. From 1989 to 1992, he worked as Senator Danforth's counsel for judicial and health affairs. He then became the Senator's legislative director and ultimately served as his chief of staff. In 2004, Peter took time away from his AHLA responsibilities and served as Washington Deputy to Senator Danforth, who was then serving as United States Ambassador to the United Nations. In 1988-89, Peter clerked for Judge Wilfred Feinberg of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. He is a graduate of Haverford College and Yale Law School. Peter is married to Elizabeth McCloskey, with three children: Brian, Collin and Nora. Peter spends his free time with his family, coaching and playing soccer and basketball, skiing and playing tennis.
---------------

Community Life ministries of St. Charles Parish provide opportunities to strengthen ministry teams in faith, hope, and love through spiritual formation, caring, and evangelization.
Share Circle Co-Chairs: Liz McCloskey and Peter Leibold
St. Charles Borromeo Catholic Church
3304 North Washington Blvd, Arlington, VA, 22201

--------------

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:55 PM

The government HAS to act as a meeting ground for differing views, to determine what the SOCIETY as a whole ( rather than any one religious group or political viewpoint) will consider as the correct point to consider them human.

I've got a perfect solution. Have the government legislate to give all men vasectomies to prevent unwanted pregnancies. We can store up semen ahead of time, so the human race need not die out and there will be no need for abortions,so the government can stay out of women's lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:56 PM

Or have the government give all women hysterectomies and simply store the eggs and reproduce that way. OR, teach people to use precautions.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 07:17 PM

The "let's do this to men and women" foolishness aside, there are costs to abortion. In Canada where approximately 100,000 abortions are performed every year at a cost of about $475, I tend to think that better uses can be found for close to 48 million dollars. Education might be a good place to start.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 07:25 PM

Make people have babies, and then, when they're born, deny them health care. Yup. That's pro-life alright.

That's the kind of phony "pro-life" I had in mind when I wrote that last post, and used the expression "genuinely pro-life".

"Phony pro-lifers" might claim to be pro-life, but their focus is exclusively on the legal status of abortion, rather than on trying to eliminate the things in society that drive mothers to see abortion as their only option.

But they aren't the only people around who share the concerns expressed in that article. Even in America, I am sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 07:29 PM

Kinder, Kuche, und Kirche...

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 09:48 PM

At $475 per that's a fairly cheap medical procedure. Rather than either/or, match that amount in education, housing, nutrition, and birth control. You don't take one away to do the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: GUEST,EBarnacle
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:34 AM

So, what does Liz McCloskey do besides her activist role? Does she spend her time with the house and kids or does she use her expensive legal training to work as an attorney?

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:52 AM

"You don't take one away to do the other. "

No, certainly not. However, you do enough education and you don't have to do so many of the procedures.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:07 AM

Abortion in the US. Good study.

If we accept a figure of $410 per abortion and that there are 1,200,000 abortions performed each year in the US, then there are 500 million dollars being spend on abortion itself. (That leaves out the post-abortion illnesses and possibly counselling.) We notice in that study that poorer people have more abortions than those more economically advantaged. I would make the assumption that poorer people have lower levels of education than the others. The stats on improper use of contraceptive devices seems to show that people try to use those methods but due to accident, ineptitude, sloppiness or misunderstanding the methods fail.


Ipso facto, EDUCATE.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:17 AM

If people had the bloody sense to take precautions, there would be much less demand for abortions.

Easy to say, Peace, but not always the easiest thing to do. I know from personal experience of being married to a man who wanted sex whenever HE wanted it, had no interest in taking precautions and kept me too short of money to be able to do it myself. Result - three pregnancies in four years - the last baby born when I was just short of 22. After that my doctor arranged for me to have an IUD fitted free.

When I first got pregnant at 17 - no sex education and the "If you love me" bit from the guy - I would have gone for an abortion, if it had been legal. As it happened I was lucky in life and things turned out well for me. That is not always the case.

I've seen a friend through the process and can quite understand her reasons for going ahead with it. She did not think that she could get pregnant then so precautions seemed unnecessary within a long term relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:22 AM

See the link above and my statement regarding it. Yes, you are right. However . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Grab
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:23 AM

When a woman who is pregnant sees no alternative to abortion, because of economic or social pressure, that is not free choice.

That is never the case. What she sees is no alternative THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO HER. She has the choice to leave her partner if he insists on her carrying to term and she doesn't want to. She has the choice to break contacts with her family, friends or church if they insist on her carrying to term and she doesn't want to. If she wants a baby, she (and her partner, if relevant) has the choice to live on relatively little money. These may not be pleasant choices to have to live with, but they're choices. The choice to have an abortion isn't a pleasant choice either.

Whatever though, the key point is recognition that the woman involved should HAVE the right to make a choice. The authors of BB's quoted article miss this vital concept - they're looking for a party which will selectively deny rights to others based on their own beliefs. Thank heavens they haven't found one.

Lest we forget why we should be thankful that they haven't found a party for themselves, remember that this is *Catholics* we're talking about here. Under Catholic rules, *any* contraception is banned. It's not just the fertilised egg that's sacred - no form of contraception whatsoever is acceptable to the Catholic church. Nor is there any tolerance of homosexuality.

Sure, plenty of Catholics use contraception, and plenty also are tolerant to homosexuality. In other words, we've established the principle that what parts of your religion you follow are your personal choice, not an absolute "I follow this religion and I will apply all its rules" situation. Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that opinions on abortion are similarly a personal choice, doesn't it?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:11 AM

Graham, I agree with some of what you wrote, but this:

What she sees is no alternative THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO HER. She has the choice to leave her partner if he insists on her carrying to term and she doesn't want to. She has the choice to break contacts with her family, friends or church if they insist on her carrying to term and she doesn't want to. If she wants a baby, she (and her partner, if relevant) has the choice to live on relatively little money.

is very unrealistic. Not all of those are generally AVAILABLE, let alone acceptable to some women. Economics alone can keep a woman in a bad situation. I have married friends who were forced to have either a baby or an abortion because that is what their husbands demanded. They've both since divorced, but at the time, the college-educated women, were penniless, without cars, without friends and family, one also had two little children already.

I was in a similar situation as LtS, pregnant at 17 and loath for anyone to find out. Abortion was not available then, I didn't even know it existed as an option. Birth control, other than a condom which my boyfriend didn't like and he loved me, don't worry, etc. all the lies a 16 year old would believe then...there was nowhere to turn. I do not regret having my son, but I probably would have had an abortion then if it'd been an option.

As I said before:

IF right-to-lifers would stop their opposition, to such things as the Morning After Pill, family planning funding, and sex education, they might actually contribute to less of a need for abortions to be legally available. Until then, women will have to continue to work for the right to decide what is done with and to their own bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:26 AM

IMO, there is NO point taking a moral stance on the topic of abortion. It has been defended and argued against by people way smarter than any of us (no offense) and they have come down on both sides of the issue. We would, too.

I think the need for an abortion is tragic, but the answer will not be found in 'philosophical' or 'moralistic' discussions.

##########################################################

"Nor is there any tolerance of homosexuality [in Catholicism]."

The Catholic Church has made its position clear (unfortunate turn of phrase there). People are 'allowed' to be homosexual and they will be welcomed into the church as participating members. However, if they ACT on that homosexuality, then they are no longer accepted. It's a sex issue. BTW, I am not agreeing or disagreeing. Simply getting the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:29 AM

Seems to me that almost everyone ~ and absolutely every politically-organized group ~ is willing to accept one kind of killing or another.

Anti-abortionists, as a general rule, have little or no problem with war and capital punishment. And the converse is true as well.

The late Pope JPII preached across-the-board "respect for life" ~ no abortion, no warfare, no executions ~ but his church has not been similarly consistent, certainly not in the US. Many of you will undoubtedly remember the presidential campaign four years ago, when the Catholic Democratic nominee was denied communion because he would (quite properly, as a secular officeholder in a multicultural society) continue to allow legal abortions. But there was no such condemnation of any other form of disrespect for human life

The "pro-life" candidate who bragged about the many execution orders he had signed, and who exhibited such a cavalier attitude toward human life in bomb-targeted cities, got a pass, and even endorsements from the pulpit.

It seems that all a politician has to do in order to win the religious-right vote is to give lip-service to "life," and "promise" to "do something" about the current legality of abortions. (Has anyone noticed that no one ever finds a way to keep such promises?)

The next political scandal, the one I am really looking forward to, will be when some sanctimonious "pro-life" proponent gets caught paying for his mistress's abortion. I think this is almost guaranteed to happen, sooner or later. I'm sure it happens with some regularity; it's just a matter of time before someone gets caught.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:44 AM

Anti-abortionists, as a general rule, have little or no problem with war and capital punishment. I believe that may be the case in America. Not in Europe, especially in regard to any suggestion that the long abolished death penalty should ever be reintroduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:56 AM

My late wife was nearly killed by an illegal abortion (long before I knew her).

The anti abortioners never offer to provide realistic help for the women they want to suffer.

Catholic guilt is a means of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:15 PM

"Or have the government give all women hysterectomies and simply store the eggs and reproduce that way"

Speaking as a woman still in her childbearing years, I have asked about hysterectomy as I do not want children. Ever. Decision made around age 8 and I'll be 36 in a couple of days. Doctors, at least where I live, will not performed the procedure because I'm unmarried and young enough to still have children. They're apparently afraid I might change my mind or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:17 PM

That was a facetious comment from me in response to another poster's remark that all men be given vasectomies, etc. It is certainly not something I would ever believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:20 PM

The corollary to a vasectomy would be a tubal ligation. The corollary to a hysterectomy would be for the men to be castrated. Might not be a bad idea though. ;-P

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:21 PM

Of course, Peace..I knew you were being facetious. But I was genuinely interested in the procedure and it's not an option. The only other options that are 100% effective are abstinence and menopause...and I'm still a good 10-15 years from the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:24 PM

Thank you, Becca.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Grab
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:24 PM

I don't say it's a choice that's easy to accept, Kat. But the economics and other pressures are a matter of choice - the choice being whether you value reproduction more than a comfortable existence. It's the same choice any other abused woman faces - do you stay as the emotional/physical punchbag in a pretty house, or do you get the hell out and live a happier life in a crappy flat?

I know I'm majorly understating the magnitude of the decision. But it's a decision, even if it's a decision to submit to the pressure. As a man (and fairly happily married), I know it's not a decision I'm likely to have to face, which is why I'm all the more impressed by women who do face up to abuse and make that truly heroic leap.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:33 PM

While I was in the process of adopting my son I had the misfortune of sitting for hours going through the Blue Books. Literally thousands of children (none orphans) abandoned by their familes AFTER being abused so severely that they are lame, scarred, hopelessly retarded or so emotionally disturbed that they can no longer function in society.

After the adoption, a Right To Lifer showed up at my door. "Sullivan" to him meant Irish Catholic. When he realized that it was my maiden name and I had a child, he treated me like garbage and started in on saving my soul. I asked him if it would have been better if I had aborted my son and gone to church without anyone knowing? He left.

If you truly abhor abortion, do something about it - open your home to that unwanted pregnant teenager and her child. Take in the drug addict preggie or the one infected with AIDS and raise those children. Give those precious but unwanted children the same upbringing as your own flesh and blood BEFORE their familes have a chance to harm them. Frightening a pregnant woman with no means of raising a child away from an abortion doctor is not how to end abortion.

The truth is you don't want those babies in your neighborhood nevermind your home. When I said this to a rabidly pro-abortion friend, she looked at me thunderstruck and said "I don't want to raise someone else's children." I already knew that - there are still thousands of them each on his or her own page in the Blue Books.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:41 PM

Becca - don't count on menopause - My mother had three "menopause babies". one after 3 years with no period and one after a further 6 years with no period.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:43 PM

Ok, so make that abstinence or DEATH :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:44 PM

Hey, ya really want to avoid that there tubal litigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:51 PM

tubal ligation (which has been known to reverse itself) only solves part of the problem. Women still menstruate after a tubal. If I'm not having children I don't want the Red Menace, either, especially has I have always gotten very very sick every month. I know, TMI, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:57 PM

The issue on abortion is NOT to try and cram legislation down the craws of all women in the nation, despite their ownership opf their own lives and bodies. THat's just Neanderthal.

If there were a working network of support for Planned Parenthood, pre-natal support, post-natal support, familial education, and compassionate adoption processes, abortion would be come much less in demand.

If this were done in addition to honoring the sovereignty of the individual woman over her own body, our nation would have a sane and balanced approach to the issue.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 02:01 PM

Sorry to thread creep here, but Becca, there are many potential problems associated with hysterectomies as well (and once it's done, it's done), and it's not possible to know ahead of time whether or not you're going to be one of the people who experiences them. I definitely understand about the getting sick part though.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

Carol, I understand completely. But there are many potential problems with childbirth and birth control, too. Nothing is without risk. And the "once it's done, it's done" is what is atractive about it for some people...

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 02:14 PM

If there were a working network of support for Planned Parenthood, pre-natal support, post-natal support, familial education, and compassionate adoption processes, abortion would be come much less in demand.

And that is something which anyone who is genuinely "pro-life" or "pro-choice" ought to be agreed about, and doing what they can to ensure exists.

Does anyone actually disagree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 02:17 PM

IMO, education is the only way to effect change in the area of unwanted pregnancies.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:18 PM

The problem with education is that there are many folks who believe that if kids are told about the options they will start having sex. The way to avoid this is to not put ideas in the minds of the impressionable young folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:19 PM

do you stay as the emotional/physical punchbag in a pretty house, or do you get the hell out and live a happier life in a crappy flat?

Graham, I know you are trying to understand. I can assure you, "a pretty house" has nothing to do with whether a woman stays or goes. It has to do with the complete traumatisation of the woman, physically AND mentally. She cannot fathom leaving, it seems impossible and deadly. In one case, a non-fiction book I am editing, the husband made sure she knew he would kill her and their children if she tried to leave; he even threatened to eat them. The one time she did get away to stay with friends, he tried to burn their house down with them all in it.

In such situations, a woman is not thinking of a "happier life" she is thinking of just surviving and, usually, because she has no self-esteem left, she cannot think beyond making herself more compliant, prettier, less demanding, etc. in order to please him in the hopes he will stay nice and not go into some horrible rage and beat her and the kids once again, maybe even kill them. Clear thinking is rare in such instances and murders of abused spouses happen more often just after they have left the abusive relationship than any other time.


Re' my earlier suggestion about vasectomies, I was being facetious, of course, but it does remind me of the old adage, "If men could get pregnant, abortions would be a constitutional right" or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 04:09 PM

Hmmmmmmm? I haven't heard any Dem candadates say they are for abortion...

For choice, yes...

One can personally be anti-abortion and politically pro-choice...

There is no conflict here and I don't see why the Post printed this op-ed since its authors totally misrepresent the truth....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:49 PM

Many women reluctantly feel it necessary to have abortions because in their circumstances pregnancy is a major problem.

Whether someone is "pro-life" or "pro-choice", there is a duty to seek to ensure that there is help available that can change these circumstances. That is a duty that is common to both positions, where these are held sincerely.

Where this duty is not recognised both positions still have a great deal in common - a shared hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: GUEST,I'm just curious
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:14 PM

Where has the myth that **all** people who claim to be pro-life are also pro-death penalty and pro-war? "Pro-lifers" I've known cover the full spectrum of beliefs and opinions on those issues. What about the myth that **all** pro-life people never lift a hand to help pregnant women? I've known quite a few 'pro-lifers" who've run, volunteerd for, or at least financially supported social service agencies for pregnant women in trouble; who have taken troubled pregnant women into their homes and supported them until they were able to manage independently. I've known "pro-lifers" who've adopted kids out of foster care etc, etc. There's probably more diversity of opinions attitudes and activities in the pro-life movement than in either major US political party.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:37 PM

I can't answer your question, Just curious, but I can tell you that even just calling themselves "pro-life" invites that sort of thing, because it implies that everyone who is pro-abortion is "anti-life". The anti-abortion people need to start calling themselves by another term if they don't want to all be pigeon-holed as intolerant hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:40 PM

Even Pat Robertson supports China's forced abortion policy.

However he has a differnet take on South Carolina.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:41 PM

I would like to rephrase that...

I can't answer your question, Just curious, but I can tell you that even just calling themselves "pro-life" invites that sort of thing, because it implies that everyone who is pro-abortion or even pro-choice is "anti-life". The anti-abortion people need to start calling themselves by another term if they don't want to all be pigeon-holed as intolerant hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:14 AM

The terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are both terms intentionally adopted for polemic purposes, which is normal enough practice in many situations where there is disagreement and debate. For example in the names of political parties, such as Democratic and Republican.

The point being to adopt a label representing a positive and generally shared value, so putting the opponents on the wrong foot, by implying that they do not share that value. It's a debating trick.

"Pro-choice" does not in fact involve being anti-life as such, and "pro-life" does not involve being anti-choice as such. What such labels do in practice imply is a more restricted definition of, respectively, valid life and valid choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:53 PM

Pro-choice is a term that people use to indicate that while they, themselves are not necessarily pro-abortion, and may even be anti-abortion, they believe that a woman should have a right to make that choice herself. It is in no way used for polemic or political purposes by many who use it.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:36 PM

It really is a bit more complicated than that. No one would recognise an absolute and unfettered right of individual choice in all matters. The limiting factor would be whether the individual's choice impinges on another.

In relation to abortion the disagreement is based on a different interpretation of whether this applies in this situation, with the two sides having "a more restricted definition of, respectively, valid life and valid choice".

Both sides can reasonably claim that they are in favour both of a right to life and a right to choose - just not of an absolute right in either case.

Moreover there is an ambiguity in the term "right to choose" as generally used. It is not always clear whether people use it in a purely legal sense, or in a moral sense. It is in principle possible to regard abortion as something which is wrong in all circumstances, and yet to believe that, on balance, it may be futile and damaging to seek to prohibit it by law - and a diversion from more effective ways of damage limitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:49 PM

Possibly, McGrath, but you can't expect people to explain all of that every time they try to tell someone what their stance is on abortion. Some times they might have that opportunity, but a lot of the time they have to say it using the fewest number of words.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:58 PM

And that's why terms like "pro-choice" and "pro-life" get used - for convenience, and also, it seems to me, as a way of shaping the debate (which is what I mean by "polemical")

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM

Pro-choice can be used in a way that is not polemical. Pro-life cannot.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 02:58 PM

One of the problems in this discussion, not just on the 'Cat but the national discussion, is that we try to speak from general principles and if nothing were more clear it is that every case is unique and is a personally intense experience. There is a price to be paid for foolishness and in the case of unwanted pregnancies it is usually a very high price indeed. Again, a generality. Granted, some folks are wanton in their sexual conduct and an abortion is not that big of a deal but I suspect that is a low number. I believe in the general principle of abstinence but I am not deluded as to the power of the urge and the moment.

On the purely biological front any scientist, unencumbered by political or religious pressure would tell you unequivocally that life begins at the moment of conception. If this were not true there would be no higher life forms, that is, unless we could bud or have a perfect parthenogenesis. Life, if anything in the empirical world, is a CONTINUATION. And that path of continuation has conception as it's key nexus.* That is a point that needs not enter the debate, in my honest opinion.

Some have said that those having abortions are the very ones whose DNA should be removed from the gene pool. Quite callous and it overlooks all the circumstances which have brought the woman to such a crisis. Abortion is the one topic where anecdotal evidence rules the discussion. It IS what it is about; individuals in life-circumstances faced with a horrendous choice. I don't know the answer. There is no answer. Only a case by case evaluation and an answer to one's own conscience or God.

I think everyone with any moral fortitude is "Pro-life". We love our lives to some extent. That's why we keep hanging around on this little mud ball we call Earth. Some more so than others. And some find their pregnancy the make or break issue. Then it is certainly a case of choice over general principle. Instead of a debate or general condemnations we should stress education and we should provide all the help and incentive we can for those in a bad situation. Good Samaritans all. That's my ideal. It's a dream, of course. But we all do what we can.

The French have a saying (never got around to learning French), it translates "To understand all is to forgive all". I believe that is a good starting point.

* You know me. I love words. The suffix "'cept" is a great little word-part which means "to grasp". Concept, recept, precept, percept, accept, intercept, etc. Carries a lot of meaning. Try substituting the word "grasp" whenever you see it in a word and it intensifies your congrasp of the meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: GUEST,Keinstein
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:42 AM

On the purely biological front any scientist, unencumbered by political or religious pressure would tell you unequivocally that life begins at the moment of conception.

No, life began, probably just the once, a couple of billion years ago. All that happens at conception is that selections of two genomes are combined to make a new set. Both the sperm and the ovum were already living, and the combination stays living afterwards- in an altered state. I find it wonderful to think that I am a living descendant of that first life- every one of my DNA molecules is a copy (very imperfect!) of the very first one.

But this has no relevance whatsoever to abortion, which is about people, not DNA.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:51 AM

On the purely biological front any scientist, unencumbered by political or religious pressure would tell you unequivocally that life begins at the moment of conception.

Complete Bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting Viewpoint on Abortion
From: Slag
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

Well Greg F, that certainly is an opinion.