Tight Folkies

Subject: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:02 AM

I've read a lot of these recent postings and have come to the conclusion that a lot of people on here want something for nothing. You want it laid out on a plate with jam on and you don't want to part with a solitary measly penny to get it. Festival prices? Booking fees? Anything at all it seems. A friend of mine opened his bar from 8am a couple of years ago during Whitby folk week so that it could be used for dance practice and for singing practice (It's a big bar) and he brought in two members of staff to work. He gave the premesis up for free on the condition that, naturally, people bought his drinks and food. It was made clear beforehand that this was the condition. He sold, out of a total of 45 people, 4 coffees! The rest had tap water, and some even had the audacity to bring flasks! Nobody bought so much as a bacon sandwich. Folkies during Whitby folk week are notoriously tight-fisted, ask any local trader. Personally, I find this at most festivals that I go to across the country too. Unless, of course it's spent on beer!

Obviously, I'm generalisisng, but it's a pretty widespread disease.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,The Input
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:22 AM

I heard that story too. I think that, yes you are generalising but I do go along with a lot of what you say though. I understand that not everyone can afford to go to festivals with tickets priced between 50 and 100 quid and that's purely down to affordability, But to use words like 'rip-off' and 'expensive' just whiffs of stinginess. You want entertainment of the best quality you gotta pay for it. It was also mentioned somewhere that "thank God we like folk music". Most Rock festivals are now well in excess of a hundred quid. Those promoters can count themselves lucky that they don't have to sell their tickets to a lot of folkies. They wouldn't survive beyond their first year.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: the button
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

Hmm... surely not everyone at Whitby can be actually *born* in Yorkshire?

*gets coat*

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,The Input
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:27 AM

It's Goth Weekend in Whitby right now and the tills will be heaving by the way!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: nutty
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:27 AM

I guess that as most of the above posting is directed at me that I should defend my position.

I certainly do not want something for nothing. I have been involved in folk music for so many years that I am very much aware of how much it costs to run a festival and how much time and effort has been put in over the years to make the folk scene what it is today.

I have watched many of todays stars grow up and have supported them in their success. The folk world needs its young ones but it also needs its oldies.

The world is changing - things are getting more expensive and you have to be a pensioner on a fixed income that is not keeping pace with inflation to really appreciate this fact.

OK .. A £2 booking fee isn't much when you are on £30/40,000 a year but it represents half a gallon (or less) of diesel, about 20 miles of travel in the camper.

Similarly, pensioner consessions, particularly when you want to go to more than one festival a year.

OK , I could steward which many pensioners do . Unfortunately because of health problems that is not an option for me.

I do run workshops at some festivals which helps with the finances but not all festivals want that.

I cherish the folk scene and my friends from all around the country and will be sad to see the day - which I know will come - when going to a festival will, because of fuel costs and ticket prices, be more than I can afford.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,The Input
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:37 AM

I agree with you Nutty about pensioner concessions. That's one thing I can fault that festival down the road from you for (The P word). I can see no concessions for the elderly. Surely a tenner off a full price ticket wouldn't go amiss. I will investigate!

Of course you cherish the folk scene as we all do. My guess is that you'll be okay for getting to festivals. Why not offer to take friends that are camping and share the fuel costs. By the way, you have my greatest admiration for all that you do.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Carol
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:24 PM

Surely there's also a difference between festivals 'proper' and song weekends, which are my favourite types.
Also as nutty says a lot of festivals don't make any concessions for pensioners, especially the 60 -65 yers of age ones who are now having to pay twice as much tax as last year and £1.26/l this week for diesel on a motorway service station 'down south'.
also yes some of us 'older ones' aren't able to steward due to health problems.
Anyhow I still prefer a group of people enjoying themselves singing, there's nothing to beat it - try Staithes this year, there's already a thread on Mudcat about it - great long weekend and only pay for camping plus whatever you spend in the pub.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: ossonflags
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:33 AM

Or you could come to The Beverley Beck Shanty Festival at end of May all free except camping.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rumncoke
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

Although born within a gargoy's spout of York Minster I have always found that I rarely spend what I budget for at a festival.

I usually either miss the things I'd like to have attended through getting caught up elsewhere, or find that I should have bought a ticket from somewhere miles away first, or obtained some other piece of printed card in order to be admitted.

When I try to spend money at the stalls I usually find that what I want to buy has not been brought to the festival, or is already sold out because they only had a couple to start with - or they have never heard of what I want.

It might seem odd to read that someone of the female persuasion actually has a problem spending money, but after so many years - I am approaching 60 now, I have come to expect it.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Ythanside
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:05 PM

A fair number of folkies are either retired or in the lower income bracket. Serves them right, I say, for not buying up bankrupt companies during the asset-stripping Klondyke days of the 1980s. Furthermore, I suggest that these undesirables be cordoned off somewhere out of sight at festivals while we sing about the hardships of miners, farm labourers and the unemployed.
We Range Rover types have to stick together on this, Maxwell, or before we know it folk music will be overrun by working class oiks.

Obviously, you were generalising.
Just as obviously, you won't mind me extracting the urine.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM

Too many festivals, inelastic income.

G

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: mattkeen
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM

£2 booking fee is not a lot - period

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:07 PM

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rumncoke - PM
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

Although born within a gargoyle's spout of York Minster I have always found that I rarely spend what I budget for at a festival.

Come to my bookstall at Shepley Spring Festival.

I have a nice original (limited first edition 1,000 only) of English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Francis James Child. Plus slightly less expensive bits and pieces.

And reasonably priced. (well less than four figures!!)

:-)

Dave

---

Somebody questioned Dave's post and called it "advertising." We approve of such posts, in moderation - they help people find out what's available.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:15 PM

The frugal behavior of a large number of folk fans has long been a problem. I remember, as a child in the 1960s, hearing my parents discuss the fate of a favorite coffee house (and restaurant) they used to visit. It had to close, not due to a lack of customers, but to their miserly ways. Apparently people sat at tables all night and only bought coffee, and very little.

It's a version of the public radio and public television mindset here--there are a lot of freeloaders. People who feel perfectly free to never contribute because they think someone else is doing it.

They're not. The few who do contribute are usually always the same ones.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

I'm a trader and I'm expected to buy a ticket to go to events when I've closed my shop for the day. Ha who wants lemonade when the sun's gone down?

Sal

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

So really what is being said here, is that the only reason folkies don't go to rock concerts, is because they think the tickets are too expensive?
The obvious answer is to reduce the cost of tickets for rock concerts then, this would leave space in the bars and shops of Whitby et al, for the big spenders. You know, the ones who aren't struggling to pay large mortgages, or repay student loans, and are earning more than the minimum wage.
Oh sorry, did I forget the rich pensioners, and the unemployed?

G

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

If you already have a seat in World Traveller Plus on the British Airways flight from London to Buenos Aires, it's only £400 to upgrade to Business Class one way. Unfortunately the flight was full on the return journey, we could have practised camping on the plane!!!lol

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:17 PM

Ythanside - more than a grain of truth I'm afraid in what you're saying, however jokily. the whole society is very materialistic. I can certainly understand how some people find festivals too expensive.

And whilst guitars have never been cheaper, doesn't there seem a lot of floorsingers with these 'high end of the market' models? I don't begrudge these people their guitars, or feel a need to tell them what to spend their money on; but doesn't it seem a little like style before substance, occasionally.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Ythanside
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:36 PM

Folk music, as with jazz, rock etc, draws people from a broad spectrum of society, some of whom are clearly well off while others struggle to make ends meet. It just seems to me that little goodwill is likely to be engendered by accusations of tightfistedness when its root cause might be a basic shortage of funds. The golden rule applies, IMHO.

On a lighter note, WLD, I had thought I was alone in boggling at the flashy kit wielded by some floorsingers. But hey, if it does the biz for them then it's all to the good. Two pints of neck-oil does it for me, but I'm only a singer. :-D)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rumncoke
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:28 PM

Hey Dave - if I ever feel the need for Child Ballads I will look you up - though as my own personal book of songs is now at about number 300 and I am trying to redo it with fewer in - it is getting heavy to carry around, I don't really need to add any more songs to my repertoire.

Except Clyde Water - I have to add that.

I think I need to get a new keyboard, or at least clean this one, it misses letters from time to time, or gets stuck on one. I can spell gargoyle - just never noticed I lost a couple of letters.

(turns keyboard over and shakes it so bits drop out.
That's better - just who has been eating crisps near this keyboard?)

I do find the modern attitude to shopping rather strange - it makes me feel old.

I definitely have old fashioned attitudes to getting into debt. There seems to be an attitude that treats and whims are legitimate reasons for spending money people don't have, and are never likely to be able to pay back.

I bought my old Framus Texan guitar for £25 way back in 1970 - I think it will see me out, and last year I bought a new capo. They seem to wear out after 35 years. Well, I had a bit of card to put under the strap for the last ten years, but the new one is adjustable.....

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:25 AM

At our club we charge £2.50 on the door when we have a guest on. Not a princely sum I think you would agree. But there are a number of people who either try to avoid paying or make ridiculous comments about donating to my 'early retirement fund', which ranckles even more seeing as I often pay at the door as well as being doorman and MC! These are often the same people who you will see buying double rounds at the bar at last orders so they can expect the (poorly) paid guest to do an extra fifteen minutes.

I am glad to say that they are in a very small minority but they are still there all the same. Tight folkies? Hmmm - Generaly, no. But those that are, do so spectaculary well!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:27 AM

If there are acts I really want to see at a particular Festival then I am quite prepared to pay whatever the cost is....however there are some Festivals or 'gatherings' where little is invested in artists of conveniences and to my mind too much money is asked for tickets..even in advance. The simple answer is...I will pick and choose as I will and go to those I want to attend.
We all have choices...even as to what we understand as 'rules' or 'expectations' at these gatherings......you pays yer money..you takes yer choice!
>>>>>>>>>>>A friend of mine opened his bar from 8am<<<<<<< Well fancy that now....your friend hoped to make a killing that day and didn't so 'sour grapes' On whose understanding was it that people should buy his ales?????. Sorry for your friend but that's life these days. People make their own choices.
I am approaching 60 and live on my company pension.....As someone mentioned..tax is going up hugely due to the last budget. If I can get something for nothing then I will do so. If I go to a Festival, I will get the best from it and put in whatever is necessary.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Edward De Bono
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:38 AM

If they didn't want to buy his wares they shouldn't have used his premises! Simple as that. These tight fisted folkies make me sick.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:58 AM

I have witnessed folkies bringing their own drinks into folk clubs and sessions held in pubs, sometimes rooms that the organisers have been allowed to use for free - sneaking a slosh of gin or whisky into their tonic or lemonade under the table. I am totally embarassed and ashamed when I witness such behaviour.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:07 AM

Ah but Georgian Silver, he doesn't need to open his bar for them AND pay extra staff. Sour grapes doesn't come into it. He was approached to do so. Now, surely, courtesy should prevail. Especially knowing that buying a sandwich or a coffee would have been a nice gesture and simply made it worth his while. I can see it now - "right, I'll attract their attention at the bar by jingling my bells excessively loudly whilst you sneak the tupperware and the thermos in to the corner and hide it under the table".

I think that anyone in their right mind that wants to 'make a killing' will steer well clear of the folk music scene. Let's face it, it really aint gonna happen!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:15 AM

It's not just folkies, I bet EVERYONE would take the cheaper option if they could - I've worked in a licenced restaurant where people have brought in their own drink and on one occasion, a sandwich from the supermarket up the road. Trouble is, when you can get 4 cans of beer in the supermarket for the price of one pint in a pub, and your budget is limited, the temptation is obviously there.

Did your friend advertise the fact that his premises were being offered for free? I bet not. Most people there probably didn't know about the freebie, thinking that as a festival venue, it received a fee from the committee. On the other hand... if he opened it up at 8.00am as a practice venue, then it's likely that alcohol was the last thing on the minds of those rehearsing and eating whilst singing or dancing are a definate no-no. I suspect his expectations exceeded his market and those who took up his kind offer weren't aware of the 'have the room for free but you must buy my food' clause.

And as for your last statement M's SH: "Folkies during Whitby folk week are notoriously tight-fisted, ask any local trader. Personally, I find this at most festivals that I go to across the country too. Unless, of course it's spent on beer!" - not every one who attends folk festivals goes there exclusively to drink beer.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM

In restaurants, if you want to drink your own wine with your meal, you can ask permission from the management.

They then are entitled by law to charge you 'corkage', a nominal amount to cover their loss on whatever beverage yo might've purchased from them.

Anyone know if there's a similar arrangement for pubs etc?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:48 AM

My point Liz, is that he was approached by someone (I don't know who) that wanted to use the room(s) for singing and dance practice. Now I know it wasn't by the committee. It was by somebody that wanted to use them for respective song and dance groups. Now, I assume that those people went back to those groups and said "right, the deal is that we can use it as long as we buy some drinks and food". It was a pre-condition of the deal. There was NOTHING in it for him. His bar is actually the biggest in the town and he really doesn't need the business at 8am.

It's a sad world that we live in if people can't see fit to support someone that has helped them in some small way.

Regarding the 'beer' point. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone. That would be ludicrous.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:49 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYO

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:08 AM

Is anyone here getting the point?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:13 AM

"Now, I assume that those people went back to those groups and said "right, the deal is that we can use it as long as we buy some drinks and food". It was a pre-condition of the deal"

Well, there you go... you ASSUME - and we know what that makes... Sometimes the message gets garbled along the way, it's possible that the 'on the condition you buy food and drink there' clause got misheard, mistaken, or missed out at the delivery point.

He always had the option of saying no or asking a nominal fee, and I daresay this year he will... you live and learn.


LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:18 AM

"Folkies during Whitby folk week are notoriously tight-fisted, ask any local trader. Personally, I find this at most festivals that I go to across the country too. Unless, of course it's spent on beer!"
True about the beer.
A landlady in Saltburn told me she makes more money over the folk festival weekend than the Xmas & New Year period combined.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:21 AM

I can now confirm, having just spoken to him , that he DID tell them that that was the deal and that they were responsible for telling their groups. He just told me also that, not only did they not buy anything, but they never thanked him or his staff either. He also confirmed that it won't be happening again unless the committee arrange it.

I reiterate that so many people in folk music are tight-fisted. It's not always about lack of cash, it's often about lack of respect.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:23 AM

Have you been to Saltburn at Christmas or New Year BH? There's more life down at the cemetary.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:27 AM

The lack of respect is universal and it's unfair to single folkies out as being tight with it.

There are many more folkies and people out there who work bloody hard to pass accurate information and make sure that everyone who contributes gets a thank you - whether verbally, financially or in kind.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:42 AM

I agree that the lack of respect is universal but that doesn't make it right! My concern, in this instance, is that it's from people that should probably know better.

But my point Liz is that this is something that I have come across often. Again, simply ask many traders around Whitby during folk week whether or not they notice a significant increase in takings. Again, that doesn't go for the pubs.

As for a 'thank you in kind'! What are you suggesting Liz? :-)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mick Woods
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:43 AM

From what I remember of my time working in the lesisure industry. It is against the law to drink booze that was purchased at an "off Licence" retailer in an "On Licence" bar. BYO and corkage usually only apply to an "Unlicenced" premises. It coukld have changed I'm not sure.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:46 AM

thank you in kind.... a pint or two, a bunch of flowers, box of chocolates, even a nice thank you card... what did YOU think I meant?! :D

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM

I dread to think madam! I nearly had to avert my eyes.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:14 AM

Tight? You must be joking! I spent most of my time at Whitby last year browsing round the stalls. Ended up buying several books from Fokliedave (I presume it was you - Helperby Fiddler is wonderful!), a new Fyld cittern for me and a Buchanan mandolin and a whistle and a wonderful hand-made butterfly necklace for mrsleveller - not to mention all the fish and chips from The Magpie. I reckon I could have had a fortnight in the Bahamas for that money - it would have been a damn sight warmer!

the(bankrupt)leveller

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:24 AM

I did say that I was generalising leveller. Why do people still queue at The Magpie to sit down? The takeaway next door is equally as good and far, far quicker.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:28 AM

The cheapest and the mediocre, folkies have no class - other than their obsession with being working class!!!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:03 AM

Folkies, by nature, tend toward the less well heeled end of the financial spectrum. Not all. One could argue they are rich in talent and musical diligence but I quivocate.

And just look at the caravans and tents and cars. Not all are less well heeled. But it is infra-dig to bragg, as a folkie, how filthy are your riches - so the ones you hear are those that don't have much money. They either steward (would the angry mob here present kindly temper their vituperation with thankyous). Or the impecunious go to small, do-it yourself type festivals, that the angry mob might find too tame.

Different strokes for different folks. Let's face it, angry mob is a tradition too. But not very folkie.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:13 AM

"And just look at the caravans"

Please don't look at mine - it's over 20 years' old and has done more festivals than Eliza Carthy. Must wash off the green slime before Ryedale!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM

Er, the caravan, that is, not Eliza!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,The Input
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM

some of whom are clearly well off while others struggle to make ends meet. It just seems to me that little goodwill is likely to be engendered by accusations of tightfistedness when its root cause might be a basic shortage of funds.

I can see the other side on the food issue. Though this point is about movie theaters, not restaurants. If the UK is at all similar to the US, they charge an admission of several dollars then hope to gouge on the food prices to make more profit. But the snacks are the prohibitive part of the experience, so we would stick a couple of candy bars and a can of pop in a pocket and make do, if we wanted to eat. (Who needs all of that junk food, anyway, it's not good for you!)

In a different venue, many years ago where I worked in an office downtown, I was walking out of the building with my lunch in a bag when I ran into an old friend who I hadn't seen for a long time. He was going to a restaurant for lunch and I didn't have the budget that day and had already packed one. We walked over to where he was going to eat and he ordered and I ate my sandwich. The waitress came over and said they don't allow outside food in so I had to put my lunch away and sit and watch my freind eat because I couldn't order anything. Both the waitress and I were embarrassed as she realized I wasn't ordering something else, but there was nothing I could do about it. They had a prosperous restaurant and I wasn't going to break the bank by discreetly eating a sandwich. As I recall, I was so broke all I had was my bus fare, so I couldn't even order a drink. Those were the days, eh?

The practice of going into a venue that operates on a shoe string and trying to get something for nothing is different. I've been to a fair number of places that charge a cover charge during certain hours of the evening, because they know the patrons who are coming in are there to see the performer. I feel obligated to buy something to drink, but when I pay several dollars for the cover I don't feel bad about nursing it along. (Especially if it is yet another establishment that is going to charge a cover but doesn't have the courtesy to ban the smokers so I can sit there comfortably and listen. All it takes is one smoker in a modest sized room to pollute the place for everyone else, including the performers who are putting their lungs to good use.)

People can tell the nature of a business when they walk in, and some people need to decide that if they're committing the time to the musical outing they should commit some funds, also.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: gnomad
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:50 AM

I don't feel that folkies as a whole deserve the reputation which MaxwellSH ascribes to them, though we have a percentage of skinflints just the same as any other group. Some have few resources and husband them with remarkable zeal, others are relatively well-off (some of these are in that position through a lifetime of careful resource-guarding, others through hard work) some indeed have few resources but a generous hand; basically we include all sorts.

What does distinguish the folk crowd from the general run of holidaymaker is different priorities. We will spend to see performances by artists we like, but spend little in discotheques. Musical instruments probably don't feature in the basket of commodities regarded as essential living expenses for inflation calculations, but they feature heavily in many a folky's expenditure.

Coming to Whitby we don't spend highly on plastic souvenirs, tattoos, goth memorabilia or donkey rides, these are not why we come to folk week. However we do sell out all forms of accomodation in the town year after year, the restaurant and pub trade do some of their best business of the year, shops selling certain food, fashion, and trinket lines do well.

I came to the town as a folk week punter for many years, so know it well from that angle. Now that I live here, working in a tourist trade, I see the other side as well. Our business does relatively poorly out of the folk crowd (boat trips use up time you could spend singing, dancing or [yes] drinking) but I have been surprised when talking to passengers how many of them deliberately make a visit during folk week simply to take in the festival atmosphere and street entertainment. These people spend on the same things that most trippers do, but they come because of the folkies, a similar thing applies in Goth week.

With regard to MSH's bar-owning friend, I am sorry that his venture was not a success. I would suggest that 8.00 am was an unlikely time to expect to be selling significant amounts of food and drink (particularly to singers and dancers) but that does not excuse people bringing their own if the deal was that the premises were provided on the basis described, and the deal had been communicated to participants. I would hope that the staff laid on got on with the other myriad jobs which need doing in any bar, so their employment should not have been a complete loss, though clearly not as profitable as could be hoped. Perhaps a different deal with the organisers next time?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM

If they are "notoriously tight fisted", why did the man offer to open up?

G

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:22 AM

Its not that I object to paying per se, but I don쳌ft want to pay for events that I쳌fm not going to attend.

Some of the better festivals I쳌fve attended allowed for 쳌epay on the door쳌f arrangements for camping, concerts, workshops etc, hence widening customers choices.

I think it entirely fair that those who camp & use the site쳌fs facilities should pay for their stay.

I feel that the thread initiator is confusing stinginess with people쳌fs economic constraints for whatever reason.

Someone쳌fs mentioned people taking their own drinks to pubs etc.

It쳌fs frequently been my experience at fests, that landlords themselves often hike up their prices when such an event is happening.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

Because he was offering a service to the festival free of charge. Jesus, is it really too much to expect for people to buy a cup of coffee or tea or a bottle of water? The fact that there's so much 'defence' of the skinflints on this thread simply enhances what I originally said.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:33 AM

Even when meeting in my local before going to a session or whatever, I always buy a drink, even if it is a half of coke. To take your own drinks to a pub, as in this case, is just rude.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:40 AM

...................& some venue's beer is horrible!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

This was 8am. They weren't serving beer.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

MAxwell'S SH - Actually, if he made the arrangement with the group involved ~ "My point Liz, is that he was approached by someone (I don't know who) that wanted to use the room(s) for singing and dance practice. Now I know it wasn't by the committee. It was by somebody that wanted to use them for respective song and dance groups." ~ then he wasn't offering a service to the FESTIVAL free of charge. Your own words indicate that it was a private arrangement between himself and the organiser of the dance groups. His and your beef is with that organiser and not with folkies in general. I'm not into 'name and shame in public' but this person responsible for their group, needs to learn respect and good manners.

In every group of people, be they folkies, firemen or fan tailed pigeon fanciers, you will get people who do not want to pay their way. You will get people who can afford to but don't - how else do you think they got rich? You'll get people who can afford to but don't like to flash their cash around in case they get take advantage of. You'll get people who can afford to but don't see why they should have to and you'll get people who can't afford to but pay it back in other ways.

I am not defending skinflints... especially people who baulk their rounds, never offer to pay for anything and then boast about how much they've saved.... but I will defend those who genuinely do not have enough to make extravagant gestures or spend unecessarily and I think you are wrong to generalise folkies that way and tar us all with the same brush.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:56 AM

LtS,

Hear,hear!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

I'm not tarring anyone with the same brush Liz but if the cap fits.......... :-) I'm 50 now and have been going to festivals since I was 9 with my parents. I've seen this kind of thing so often. It's the same brigade that moan about the prices at folk clubs. They want the function room for sweet FA and then moan about an extra 10p on a pint.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Blowz
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:44 AM

And if, as MSH suggests, out of 45 people, the landlord only sold 4 coffees - it does seem as if there was a puzzlingly large percentage of won'ts or can'ts there. I must admit - if i was called to a practise at 8am, i would have needed more than 4 coffees myself, just to get through it!!

A lot of the time, landlords are 'persuaded' to make venues available, free of charge, on the back of the extra income they will make. If they don't then make that income, they won't think - oh, that was surely a mis-representative sample of people i had there. They will just think 'it's not worth my while doing this'.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM

No problem with spending a few bob in Ireland those traveling food poisoners with their cram-burgers and rubber sausages, make a pile of money, Pinkerton couldn`t find the ham in the sandwiches.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

and barely a thank you Blowz.........

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:38 PM

If the folk venue is in a room hired out by the pub, doesn't that mean they are making money twice over? Once on the rent and again on the booze? I think the price of the ale etc should come down if that is the case.

My opinion of course.


Sal

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:29 PM

Not right, Sal. If you want beer at bar prices, sit and drink it in the bar. If you rent a function room, you pay for the function room space, not for the beer cellar or the drink coolers or the bar staff salaries - those are covered by the beer price, which has therefore to remain the same. Sure, you bring more punters in and increase beer sales, so you might be able to negotiate better rates for yourself. The keyword here is "negotiate", and that means beforehand.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM

The Plough raked in £35000 during folk week - then closed it's doors to tighfisted folkies...........

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

...even tight-fisted ones!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

The person who started this thread obviously has a personal axe to grind. Best thing to do is ignore her/him.

G

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM

If he/she has an axe, certainly!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:53 PM

Dear Giok , Please feel free to ignore me. Nothing would make me happier. I'd prefer you not to advise others to though. Surely, that's for them to decide,

Lowden, I had already stated that booze wasn't an issue. That's the one thing that 'most' folkies have no problem spebding money on.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM

Maxwell is right to raise the issue if it upset his friend (who I hope made some money at other times during the festival btw).The publican should have dropped some subtle hints in the song and dance troupe's direction .When people are serious enough to start rehearsing at 8am ,they do tend to be focused on getting their acts together , but they should all at least have said thank you - particularly the person who arranged the venue. I'm sure they would have done if they knew the publican was doing them a good turn. Folkies may or not be tight ,but they do tend to be quite polite . I wasn't at Whitby mysef ,but please say thanks to your friend for his services to folk music on my behalf Max .

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:53 PM

If we were to ignore every issue that may or may not have an agenda attached to it, well, there'd be nothing left to say. Max certainly has raised a legitimate issue here.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Ythanside
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:47 PM

MSH, 28 Apr 08 - 9:23 AM -- 'The fact that there's so much 'defence' of the skinflints on this thread simply enhances what I originally said.'

Really? What a wonderful example of Orwellian logic.

You wouldn't consider that the reason for 'so much 'defence'' might be that many people happen to disagree with what you said originally?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:22 PM

Just like Bush's logic on the WMDs

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM

Folk music is supposed to be "the people's music" (which may be an arguable point), but the idea has always more or less been that it was "homegrown" entertainment, and an alternative to "commericial" entertainment--and a lot of people feel like it, and everything connected with it, should always be as close to free as practically possible. Given the nature of our world, this can be very amusing at times.

People periodically invited our band to play for events with the idea that we would do it without charge, because it was "folk music"--and occasionally someone would become irate when we quoted our fee.

In this same vein, I knew a performer who was booked regularly by a certain individual for a particular organization's special events--one day, she got a call from another person from the organization who booked another of the events. When she finished, and requested her pay, she was told that the booker had always assumed there was no fee because it was folk music.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:48 PM

Tight fisted folkies at Sidmouth a few years back only managed Forty Grand turnover at The Newt and (I Think) 250 Grand at the Anchor in Festival week ! I must check what the other Live Music Bars did to keep the wolf from the door .

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:03 AM

Leadfingers - there you go........... beer again! I've already made that point - TWICE!

Ythanside - Of course I accept that those people disagree with me! Why? Maybe I touched a nerve.

Mavomick - He didn't do it for the money and was happy to stand a loss (they take a small fortune all year round anyway). He did it because he was approached and ASKED to do it. His gripe was simply that the gesture wasn't there. Thanks for your remarks too.

Now, various people have made various excuses but, at the end of the day, the fact remains that 45 people turned up for practice and only 4 people bought a coffee. Considering that he bothered to open up for them and lay on staff as well, my point is that the very least they could have done was to support him in some small way as he had done for them.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:29 AM

There you go again. One instance and the world is tarred.

Thread drift ensures that others want to defend the "world" and we come back to the singular. There is a mismatched of communication here.

Landlords take a punt and get it wrong. A group want a venue and don't explain why in detail. It could all be sorted if people talk - at length - but verbal contracts don't work that way - lawyers get rich on the written kind. You want them involved?

Sheesh!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:37 AM

Have you ever thought that the coffee was crap, as is the case at most places in the UK? Maybe thats why only 4 coffee's were purchased.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:38 AM

Lawyers involved? Yes, if needs be!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:12 AM

I have to confess villan that the coffee in there is really crap. Surely you can't go wrong with tea or bottled water though!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:31 AM

I'm sure the Plough would love to welcome folkies, tight-fisted or otherwise, but as it is a Sam Smiths pub is not allowed to have music of any description on the premises - company policy.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:04 AM

In fairness I think the organsiser is the one at fault.
If you book a room on the understanding that food and drink cannot be brought onto the premises for consumption and that you must purchase from the pub, then thats fair enough.
How many of the 45 people knew that? For them its a working session and just like when you go to work, most people will take their food and drink with them.
Likewise, the owner should have made it clear right from the start on the day that only food and drink purchased on the premises was allowed and enforced it.

Sounds to me that the people at the top on both sides didn't do a very good job.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:18 AM

Ended up buying several books from Fokliedave (I presume it was you - Helperby Fiddler is wonderful!),

Not me, I haven't been to Whitby for many a year. Clearly an imposter. I shall eventually catch up with the person, never fear. (I only do S/hand books - more or less).

I just want to make sure I am understanding SRS correctly. You went into a restaurant and started eating your own food?????

What an excellent idea. I think I'll try it in my local pub. After all it's a prosperous place. I'll get some beer in the supermarket where it's about half the price and drink it in the pub.

It might start a trend.

On the other hand I might get asked to leave. And trust me on this one, the landlord will not be embarassed. This is Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: melodeonboy
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

So, apart from the one unusual incident (which I think we've just about squeezed dry), there appears to be some sort of consensus: folkies do spend a lot of money, but on beer rather than other things.

Given that the other things at festivals are often tat stalls or overpriced food stalls selling inferior food, perhaps they've got it right!

Given the enthusiasm shown by landlords round my way for setting up folk and ale weekends (which are becoming increasingly popular), I don't think they regard folkies as skinflints!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:00 AM

As I suggested in my much earlier post.....Landlords open up rooms hoping to make a killing from the people who use it. Perhaps it would be fair to say that they are the ones who should be sure of what they are letting themselves in for before being too hasty....as I believe the Landlord mentioned at the start of the thread was.
He hoped to make money...the Folkies for whatever reason...did not spend it....life can be tough sometimes...for us all!!!!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:03 PM

If you are going to insist that people in your premises drink and eat only what is available in your premises, then it is wise to make sure that what you offer is palatable - MSH has admitted that the coffee is horrible. If a place can't make good coffee, then people may be a little reticent about ordering something more substantial which has the potential to be a) inedible and b) expensive.

Having said that, I do think that the person who asked for the room should have made some effort to thank the landlord for his generous offer. I suspect he didn't know the extra staff had been got in especially.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: the button
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:57 PM

"folk and ale weekends"

This made me laugh out loud. Must be something to do with my accent. Folk and ale, is that the time?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Codpiece
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:30 PM

Tight as a fishes' arse. Shanty singers that is.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:13 PM

I think that the story speaks for itself--and the responses pretty much proves the point--the ranks of folk music are full of pennypinching cheapskates.

The belief that he intended to make some kind of killing off folkies is a mindset that I know only too well--truth be told, had he sold coffee and/or water to everyone, he would not have made enough money to cover the costs of opening up at 8am, an despite efforts to claim the contrary, I am sure he had little thought of profit--his idea was simply that most normal humans would have bought coffee or whatever out of hand, without need for being prodded--we live in a society of joyful consumers, after all.

And though I am sure SRS' story was just an awkward situation--I have heard many stories about folkies bringing bag lunches into restaurants and beverages into bars, not withstanding health ordinances or social customs.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:51 AM

Thank you M.Ted for your comments. I know for a fact that it was the principle that got to him. He doesn't need a few measly pounds to help him along. His bar is hugely successful. It was simply the fact that HE'D BEEN APPROACHED to do this. Many people are STILL missing the point about this (Georgian Silver) - "He hoped to make money" He couldn't have given a toss about making money - "Landlords open up rooms hoping to make a killing etc" Again, he couldn't have given a toss. His gesture was to open his two very large rooms , having been approached to do so, so that certain people that attended folk week could use his facilities (as requested) to practise their singing and dancing. All he asked in return was a gesture by those people to buy something. Now, perhaps I'm just exceedingly extravagant, but I reckon that I might have just dipped my hand into my pocket and bought a bacon buttie and a cup of tea (SHOCK - HORROR)as a way of saying thank you. God, is this really TOO much to ask? I certainly wouldn't have taken a flask with me! If you disagree with this, that's fine, but how on Earth do any of you that do disagree expect any publican in Whitby to open their doors early in future so that you, or any of your acquantances can have the privelage of using their facilities, Whitby's a small town and word gets around. I

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:56 AM

Yes indeed, button. That was unintentional!

If my memory serves me well, they started a couple of festivals in East Anglia some years ago called "Norfolk and Good" and "Suffolk and Good"!

(By the way, I think the incident referred to above has been well and truly squeezed dry now!)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Blowz
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM

I agree that the incident has probably been gone into quite thoroughly - but I would just like to mention one thing, which hasn't been commented on - I have to disagree with Georgiansilver and his comments about landlords seeking to make a killing etc ... if this bloke runs a busy pub, it should be remembered that he would have probably been working until round about midnight (probably later) the previous night and have had to get the place cleaned up and presentable ready for business the next day. If he'd agreed to open up at 8am, instead of the usual (say) 11am, that would have meant all that work would have had to be done the night before, rather than in the morning. It's not just a case of opening the doors ... yes, the cleaning has to be done anyway, but the routine would have had to be reorganised to accommodate the early opening.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:13 AM

O.K.......so some don't agree with the Landlords hopes as I see them!
Why would he bring in two members of staff if he did not think he would need them for 45 people?. I'm sorry folkies but the Landlord was expecting to make money out of the venture or he would not have opened and certainly not have brought in two staff!
I do totally agree that some thanks should have been levied and maybe even a whip-round for the staff for being there but I stick to my opinion on the Landlords motives.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,blowz
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:17 AM

probably because he would need one member of staff to man the premises and I would guess that 'lone working policies', as part of his risk assessment mean that you can't have one member of staff working alone, you need two ...

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM

Georgian Silver, I have told you the FACTS. I don't care what you THINK! I guess that some people are simply beyond reason. Good luck in your pathetic attempt to justify the stinginess of this miserly crew and may you spend many happy hours counting the money you save at the expense of those with a good heart.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM

So, apart from the one unusual incident (which I think we've just about squeezed dry), there appears to be some sort of consensus: folkies do spend a lot of money, but on beer rather than other things.

I'd disagree, at least in terms of regular events I've been to - festivals might be different. These events have tended to pull in a small number of participants getting together from reasonable distances (may just be the nearest villages or towns but can be further) and driving is often involved and those that are driving are not drinking loads of beer.

Then there are those who will limit themselves to say a pint or two because they find more interferes with their singing and/or playing. Of the rest, there often people who wouldn't otherwise go to a pub and perhaps don't drink.

I've rarely seen the (at least participation) folk contingent do much in the way of contributing to a pubs turnover of drinks by their own consumption. While there are exceptions and some places do seem to do exceptionally well, I feel often it's the other customers' willingness to tolerate (or we hope enjoy) us or perhaps a spare room that's doing nothing but just needs a light turned on
that makes it worth a landlord's while.

And yes, some landlords can see be big profits from folk and be dissapointed when this doesn't materialise. Usually one just gets "moved on" but I can even think of cases where landlords have moved in extra entertainment we couldn't cope with volume wise on the folk night:


Parade Llandudno - asked to miss a night for a rock group. Club moved to the London instead.
Old Vaults Bangor - new landlord wanted the passing night club trade - blazing disco music - moved to Menai Bridge (couldn't find a place in Bangor at the time)
Four Crosses Menai Bridge (a couple of years and a change of landlord) - Reggae night - moved back to Bangor (fairly recent "Irish Bar - O'Sheas - in a previous existance it had been the Kings, the venue used before a move to the Old Vaults was forced).
Temple Bar Norwich - wide screen football - moved to the Nelson


Jon

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Howard
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

Why is it considered so unreasonable that a landlord, who has a business to run, should expect to make a bit of money out of it?

He'd told the organisers what was expected of them in return for the use of the room. He was expecting to serve a large number of people and put on the staff to do so. The people turned up and didn't comply with their side of the bargain. Straightforward breach of contract.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:12 AM

Of course a landlord needs to make money... Sometimes they do expect more from folk events than they achieve... I've no comment on the case you say was a breach of contract.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:26 AM

I'd be interested to know, though, what people's expectations are in terms of the *number* of festivals they would be going to? Me, I'm happy to go to one festival a year that is run well, where I know there'll be a decent amount of space, and I'll save up however much it'll cost to buy the ticket, go there, eat and drink (a lot), and maybe buy a couple of CDs from a stall.

It'd be nice to see concessions offered at festivals for the unemployed and pensioners though.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM

Oh, also I don't think folkies are any tighter than any other musical tribe. I've put on a lot of informal jazz gigs in bars in obscure corners of London where people have appeared to be genuinely surprised when I've asked for door money. Or where people have said things like 'oh I've only got 4, is that alright?' when the posters clearly said £5, and this does not appear to impede their hands having drinks in them throughout the night. Or when a hell of a lot of the audience ask for concessions but conveniently don't have their card on them. You let them in at that price anyway cos you're a nice person and not a very good businessman. But it seems frankly statistically unlikely.

I would also add that, while I strongly sympathise with landlords doing their best to support live music and facing an uphill struggle in terms of lack of returns from non-drinkers, there are just as many landlords who've said to me things like "hmmm, I think you should only charge £4 entrance, not £6, as it's only a Wednesday night" when they are charging me around £60 for the use of their room. Pointing out that, funnily enough, you'd quite like to actually pay the musicians something, and that you also wouldn't mind at least breaking even on your own invested money and time, doesn't seem to make much difference. It has quite often elicited a kind of look that's half amazement, half pity at the fact that you're actually paying musicians at all who haven't brought 50+ people.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM

from the initial post:

'He gave the premesis up for free on the condition that, naturally, people bought his drinks and food. It was made clear beforehand that this was the condition. He sold, out of a total of 45 people, 4 coffees! The rest had tap water, and some even had the audacity to bring flasks! Nobody bought so much as a bacon sandwich.'

That all sounds a little too pat to me. Is it an urban tale?

It has been my impression over the last 20 years, that folkies and tasty food go together quite well - witness the food thread in the BS section here.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:01 AM

I am all for carrying this discussion on, though it may seem trivial, because it highlights a pervasive mindset in the "folk world", that isolates it, and the people who perform in it, from the wider world of entertainment.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:02 AM

Sounds like a paragraph from one of the disgusting 'Redtop' so called newspapers we suffer from in the UK.


G

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:31 AM

Guest Maxwell's Silver Hammer....YOU STATE

<<<<<<<< Georgian Silver, I have told you the FACTS. I don't care what you THINK! I guess that some people are simply beyond reason. Good luck in your pathetic attempt to justify the stinginess of this miserly crew and may you spend many happy hours counting the money you save at the expense of those with a good heart. >>>>>>>>>>>

I suggest that your facts are very one-sided and I have tried vainly to redress the balance. There were expectations on both sides and for some reason they did not meet the 'required' agenda of the Landlord or you would not have started the thread.
I am not saying that he did not make things clear to someone...maybe and organiser....but lack of communication or clarity caused one of those annoying situations.......you are trying blatantly to blame 'Folkies'...I am suggesting it is better not to sit in judgement and blame no-one in particular other than circumstance.....
Something does need to be learnt from this both by those involved...INCLUDING your friend the Landlord.
As for 'counting the money I save at the expense of those with a good heart'.....perhaps you need to question those who know me before making scathing comments about how 'tight' you may think I am.
I have an opinion as have you but I don't deem it correct to judge you or accuse you....why do it to me?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:11 AM

leeneia - Unfortunately it's no urban tale. Georgian Silver - The landlord has learned from it. He will NOT be offering his premesis again. I know this guy very well and he's not the type to whinge and whine. It would appear that, no matter how much I try to stick to the facts, either you or one of your 'allies' tries to distort it by offering some ridiculous reason for the behaviour of these people. Can you really not see that all of this could have been avoided if those people had simply put there hands in their pockets and spent a few quid to make it worth his while and as a gesture of thanks?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:20 AM

Yes I can surely see that but for whatever reason...lack of communication maybe......perhaps most of the people involved were there for their own reasons and the 'need' to spend money had not been made apparent to them...or all of them.
I do not believe that most people....not just 'Folkies'....would deliberately take advantage in this situation if they are fully aware of facts and expectations...do you? really? honestly?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:22 AM

Well it's obvious from your partisan posting that the landlord is a 'friend' of yours. I still think it is an odious comparison to hang a tight fisted label on all folkies on the basis of anecdotal evidence.
It also crosses my mind to wonder why, when you say it happened 'a couple of years ago', you have only brought it up now?

Giok

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:06 AM

And once again a guest manages to wind people up.

Basically the Landlord is a pillock for not applying his rules, after all it is his premises. Not a very good manager me thinks.

Whats the name of the pub guest? Maybe we can ring him and find the truth out.

As for the person who booked it, may your head hang in shame for giving the folkies a bad name.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:11 AM

By all means - It's The Shambles. He doesn't work there, he owns it.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:11 AM

I think that Georgian Silver doesn't get it yet--it wasn't a contractual issue--it was simple rudeness.

And furthermore, if it had been an 8am rehearsal for 45 performers, prior to a performance for most sorts of performing ensembles, MSH's friend would have been paid to provide a buffet with coffee, pastries, water, and sundry extras, and the group would have counted themselves lucky to have been saved the trouble of finding a caterer--

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

The shambles Bar & Restuarant. Thats the one that you have to climb up the stairs to get to isn't it.
I like that place, good beer from my memory. Also from my memory the food was good but if I remember right was a bit pricy for what you got.
However, in fairness, I would have thought the people going in would have checked to see if it was alright to eat ones own food and drink ones own drinks.
I still cannot understand why the staff didn't knock that situation on the head immediately.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

That's the one villan. As I said all along, he didn't want anything from the whole scenario. Jusy a bit of appreciation that's all. As fot the prices - that's Whitby for you. So, are you gonna finish in that UEFA cup spot?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:03 PM

Well I would expect the Villa to pick up 6 points.
However I think Everton have a much tougher 2 matches.
So all in all, there is still an outside chance, but I am not going to hold my breath. Be nice if we do though :-)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:18 PM

Well, I wish you all the best mate. My lot have already made the UEFA cup - best we can hope for nowadays I'm afraid. The boy Barry has been the only ever-present in my dream team this year. He's been a revelation. I used to play 5 a-side against him in Hastings. He was a bit tasty then. Best not talk about footie though - we'd be on a hiding to nothing in here! :-)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:29 PM

>>My lot have already made the UEFA cup << And they are ?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,ermintrude
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

They've all got short arms and deep pockets. Folkies that is, not the Villa.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:37 PM

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:39 PM

Whoops! :-)

Spurs

ermintrude - don't get me started again. Back to the roundabout for you and NO tea!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

Time for bed said Zebadee

Bit of a mixed season from the Spurs

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

This discussion is quite beyond me. We never find it necessary to visit pubs on the odd occasion we attend a folk festival. Frankly, I find the stench of beer nausiating. If I do attend a gig in a pub, I see no reason why I should be expected to drink as well.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

Nah mate, me neither

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:19 PM

"If I do attend a gig in a pub, I see no reason why I should be expected to drink as well."

The prosecution can rest its' case I think!!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

............ and on that note............. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

The prosecution can rest its' case I think!!!!

I don't know... Whether I felt I should buy a drink (although I probably would anyway) would depend on door charges. Perhaps I'm one of the tight ones but the last pub venue I paid at I think tickets were £8 - so it cost me £16. I'm not going to feel obliged to buy a drink on top of that,


Anyway, I'm out for free music (and a couple of drinks) tonight. I've heard of one of the pubs I go to for a session having a regular night of what sound like music hall songs and other older popular songs and thought I'll have a look in. Will probably move on to a session from there. I'll buy a drink there but in this one, those that play do get a free drink at the end of the night...

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:38 PM

If you're paying for entrance to the gig then I don't think there's any obligation to buy a drink as well, just because its in a pub - you wouldn't feel you had to buy a drink at a gig in a theatre, for example.

But the original posting was about an arrangement made between a landlord and and a group of folkies, who reneged on the deal. The landlord could have thrown them out - he chose not to, but he won't offer again. But why didn't the organisers explain the arrangement to their members beforehand, or tell them to stop eating and drinking their own supplies when they started tucking in?

Without the arrangement, these people would have had to pay to hire a room, or practice in the street. A cup of coffee and a sandwich sounds cheap enough to me.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:58 PM

Allright I admit, we're all mean bastards.

Are all these sandwiches and coffees tax deductible?

Was there a VAT receipt offered for those four coffees, or do we stand to that loss ourslves?

Yorkshire folk are world renowned for the warmth of their hostility, but a stitch in time saves nine as they say in Heckmondwike.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

Mmmmm.....

St. George's Day celebrations at the King's Arms, Upnor, nr. Rochester:

Mainly folkies, most of whom were participating. The landlord not only put on extra beers inside the pub, but set up another bar with twelve or so different beers outside in the garden. And, blow me down, by early evening on the Saturday, the beer had nearly all gone!

The Good Intent in Rochester, hardly a huge pub, will be setting up twelve real ales (in addition to their usual selection) for the Sweeps Festival, which starts in earnest tomorrow. The large majority of customers in the upper bar/garden during Sweeps are folkies. They did the same last year and, blow me down, the beer all went!

The landlords of the establishments above are repeatedly hosting folk events, not only because they like to support folk music, but because they make good money out of it, and good luck to them.

Or is it only Kent folkies who drink?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:27 PM

We've already established that folkies like their beer.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:58 PM

As I said before, it depends on the situation. I maintain that on a regular (eg. weekly, monthly) folk event the amount of beer consumed per folk participating punter per night is lower on average that your average few times a week punter and I'd guess a lower than say your Villa v Norwich (sorry someone above but I support [when I do the other) and I guess we both might like M O'Niel)

Festivals, I think can be different...

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:00 PM

Lost some text above: When I do support, It's Norwich.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: melodeonboy
Date: 01 May 08 - 02:52 AM

M Ted: I should have pointed out that my last post was in response to the following comment above from GUEST,Jon:

"I've rarely seen the (at least participation) folk contingent do much in the way of contributing to a pubs turnover of drinks by their own consumption."

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: oldfogie
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:41 AM

I wonder how many 'folkies' actually organise anything themselves (like a club or a festival). I'm not sure that some 'folkies' are in the real world. For example you don't get many guests priced under £100 (at least who are any good) more often-a lot more (often closer to £300). yet people still moan about paying a realistic door fee. I believe this situation is exacerbated by clubs that run mostly singers nights and charge a low entrance fee then periodically book a guest and still charge a low fee. This means that any club that doesn't work this way and charges a realistic door fee runs into comments like 'that's expensive' 'the club in the next town only charge £2'
This also has the effect of devaluing the guest and makes it sound as though he ain't worth much.
I speak as someone who has run a number of clubs during my 35 years love of folk music. I am also on a pension but I still expect to pay a realistic price for things.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: theleveller
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:53 AM

"Frankly, I find the stench of beer nausiating (sic!!)."




For goodness sake, Boko, you're supposed to drink it, not sniff it. It's not Lafite '61, you know.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:31 AM

I was sort of involved with one that booked guests in the 80s. I didn't book the guests but I was aware of some of the fees. As far as I can remember, the sort of lower fee was £60. The highest I can remember was for a well known English fiddler who cost £180.

We did (but shouldn't have, I was annoyed but that's another story..) charge on the door for the fiddler but that's the only instance I can think of where we did charge.

Money was raised a) by passing a pot round, b) a raffle and c) with the London (we were lucky), the landlord put in a contribution (off hand, I would suggest it might have been £10 when trade was good in the summer).

The club had a guest about 1 in 4 in the summer, tailing off to nothing (except perhaps Barry Skinner for the Xmas do) in the winter from which the period after the New Year could feel a bit of a long haul.

The financial "problem" I remember was never on of not being able to pay guests but an excess of money. This could be resolved by either having an extra guest or by getting a bigger name.

The subject of door charges did crop up once in a while and opinion was divided but not that I can remember for reasons of wanting to always have big names. I'd say it mostly really came down to whether one believed people should be charged for entertainment as a matter of principle or not.

My own views fwiw were we would not be better of financially by door charging, the voluntary contributions worked well for that club, a charge would loose good will (perhaps including the landlord's) plus I personally liked to provide folk at no charge. Also, and again very personally, I would not like to have charged for the array of floor singers we had and certainly would not have liked trying to offer "value for money" with implications as discussed in other recent threads here...

So, yes, oldfogie, I've at least seen a bit of it.

(and I'll add I'm not saying other clubs are wrong in what ever policy they choose - I just know where my own feelings lie).

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Santa
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:40 AM

The Clarence runs a "money in the pot" system, but I don't think it is as fair as a door charge (which wouldn't work in this case anyway). It keeps the goodwill of the tight sods who apparently don't believe in paying for the efforts and travel of the artists, at the expense of the more generous. I'm not sure that's a particularly good principle to work on.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:04 AM

Re the "tight sods", again only from my view point, I can feel that a bit like abolishing sickness benefit because a minority abuse the system. I'd personally not like to charge because one or two might be very mean.

Of course this debate could rattle on and on and another "fairness" argument can point towards having different rates (including free) for singers and guest nights. Not my way but it does work for some clubs.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:09 AM

Regarding camping at festivals, with 'staff for stalls' and 'mates' - some places have limits for the staff. My complaint is that I am looking at going to one in which the 'staff' and 'normal attendees' are put in separate camping areas. I don't mind paying 'normal price' for attending, even though I will be helping out my friend on the stall (might even have some items on her stall too) - but having to be in separate camping areas will be a real pain, as several of us were planning to camp together. We will no longer be able to organise food etc easily, as now we will require 2 smaller tents rather than the one big one.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 May 08 - 04:08 PM

There might be a few folkies at the Polo Masters day at Hurtwood Park next weekend who know nothing of this pathetic discussion - even in the VIP marquee which promises to provide a superb day!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:08 PM

The thing about festivals - they nearly always book loads of people you wouldn't actually cross the road to go and see. Unless the festival is actually in a nice place - somewhere as you say Foolestroup where you want to be, somewhere pleasant! with your mates - it can work out as a bloody expensive miserable business.

if that makes me seem a tight sod, i'm sorry. But I prefer concerts and clubs. I don't know about anybody else, but I nearly always find myself looking round for other stuff localy than what's on the festival that I've paid to see.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:11 PM

I'm waiting for the CD to come out.
G

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: melodeonboy
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:59 PM

"The thing about festivals - they nearly always book loads of people you wouldn't actually cross the road to go and see"

Well, WLD, I know we don't necessarily share the same taste in music, but Oxford Folk Festival had a number of artists on this year that I would not only cross the road to see, but who I have gone (or would go) out of my way to see at some expense. Bellowhead, Brass Monkey, Kathryn Tickell Band, Martin Simpson and Danny Thompson, Luke Daniels et al. And it's only a small festival.

By the way, following on from my earlier post, today was the last day of Rochester Sweeps Festival, and I'm pleased to report that, according to what I've been told and what I've seen with my own eyes, the tight folkies had actually drunk three pubs dry by last night: The Good Intent (we'd even finished off their bottled beer by this afternoon!), The Man of Kent and The Gordon House Hotel.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:53 AM

".....the tight folkies had actually drunk three pubs dry by last night"

As has been said many times, drinking is not included.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:26 PM

well as you say melodeon boy - there are some great festival line ups - but surely you've been through the experience where you think - I wouldn't mind going there, that's a nice place! then you look at the line up and you think..........well its a long way.....five miles, so I've got to listen to that lot and drive back without getting pissed.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: growler
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:54 PM

I can't get my head round what I'm seeing on this thread. I play in the same band as Melodeonboy and despite the fact, that he has the fashion sense of the average ardvark, most of our gigs are to raise funds of good causes, unlike the lottery.
These have included , Kent Air Ambulance, Amaus and Val's favourite, The Anthony Nolan Fund.
   All these events have raised a large ammount of money for these charaties.
   So Maxwell, if you ever manage to extract your head from your arse, you will be most wecome to join us

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:35 PM

Well now Growler, my head can't be extracted from my arse as it was never there in the first place and it's fair play to you for doing all the fine charity work that you do. Of course there are exceptions. Who would be so stupid as to level this accusation at everyone? I admitted ages ago on this thread that I'm generalising but I stick to my initial view that I've met an awful lot of tightfisted folkies down the years. More so than in any other walk of life.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:42 PM

They are tight fisted becuase they don't like you MSH.
Folkies are very kind and will always offer to buy you a drink, if you are their freind. :-)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:00 PM

That suits me Villan and I don't like them either. I don't want their drinks. I'll happily buy my own because I'm not tightfisted. I'd even buy a coffee at 8am. Now that is radical! :-)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:07 PM

I'm not going to buy you a drink Villan, not because we're not friends (not having knowingly met you) but because I have very little spending money at certain times... so don't make friends with me at the end of the month!

:)

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Tootler
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:39 PM

MSH,

going back to your origninal post, has it ever occurred to you that there was a mismatch of expectations. That people going to a practice, whatever the location, do not expect a bar to be open. Do not expect there to be tea/coffee and food on offer. So far from being tightfisted, they have simply come prepared based on their previous experiences.

Your friend's expectation was different, so as a result he was disappointed.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:45 AM

Geoff - read all of the messages. You're covering old ground mate.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:57 AM

LTS you are just a tight Folkie LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:03 AM

There's a joke there about a woman waking up with a hangover and an elephant.... let's not go there!

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Tootler
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:42 PM

Geoff - read all of the messages. You're covering old ground mate.

I did, but I got bored with the whingeing, so maybe I missed it.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:17 AM

On the big beer drinking folkies, I've just sort of found myself thinking of another and I'm wondering what sort of budgets these people have.

Firstly in part as a sort of by the by type comment, I have been a very heavy drinker with a couple of detoxes to my "credit" (if you can call it credit) and have on quite a number of occasions (although on others I've blown it) played in very respectable company with a bottle of spirit plus maybe a can or too to get to the session just to feel "functional" (it's a horrible state to be in).

Anyway, this weekend I went into Cromer FOTP, trying to be careful and (at least in a large part) trying to watch the drink and just limiting ourselves to the sessions, except for one Tom Bliss (who gave a thoroughly enjoyable performance btw) performance I managed to get to (and wanted to say "hi" to an old "Internet sparring partner - always, I think good to meet such people and put faces to names) stuck with that.

I'd guess the Fri I had 4 pints before coming home.

Sat afternoon was a session that did not happen and I guess the same consumption.

Sat evening was (eventually) lively and ran on till 2pm but there is no way these days I could have even made 8 pints.

Sun, today a session that only lasted 2 hrs and I had 3 pints.

In this total, Pip bought me a couple (and I did buy her one a J20 and crisps).

I started fotp with £90 in pocket (£10 was spent on a plant in Rainbow but I've nothing other than pub drink and the crisps spending to account for the rest.). I can't work out the sums but if I'm going to get out tonight, I will have to borrow and over at a guess for 8hrs of "entertainment out".

Drink the pubs dry by all means but in 2 days (and specifically, 4 outings during a weekend) I've gone over my weekly income.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:08 PM

You would not have considered the VIP Marquee at the Polo Masters today at Hurtwood Park I'd wager. No beer (thank Lakeman) but plenty of more civilised alchoholic beverage, and a magnificent afternoon's polo.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 08 - 05:48 PM

As the co-ordinator of numerous fund raising efforts for the Runswick Bay Rescue Boat over the years, I am never less than amazed by the generosity of the folk community. This year alone the one function we hosted raised almost £1200, last year the amount raised exceeded £1000 from just two events. The Endeavour pub each year raises loads of money for the RNLI during Folk week, tight folkies, I think not.