Honorary doctorate for m.carthy

Subject: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:21 AM

Hi
I haven't seen this info anywhere else so I thought I'd share it.
Martin Carthy has been awarded an honorary doctorate from the University of Central Lancashire (my own alma mater). I think this is his second doctorate. Apparently, instead of an acceptance speech, he sang a song about someone who has their head chopped off. Perfect.
cheers
martin

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for M.Carthy
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:42 AM

Hiya Martin,
You didn't say what the accolade was for, i.e. "Services to British
(or possibly English) Traditional music " ??? etc.
His contribution has been immense and it is good to see him again get some recognition.
I know Vin Garbutt got something similar from a Teesside Uni, but I wonder if long serving performers - the likes of Dick Gaughan, John Martyn, Richard Thompson and a few others who have influenced non Pop music in these Isles have been so rewarded ,or indeed is there a case or not for doing so.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:47 AM

Hi Betsy
The phone call I received didn't specify what the award was for but you must be on the right lines with your suggestions. I'll try to find out.
martin

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:43 AM

I would suggest that Martin's scholarly research on traditional song is plenty sufficient for a doctorate

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work.
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:45 AM

So would I Richard , I was just curious to see what words Lancaster used.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:52 AM

Yes, his long experience would absolutely qualify him for a doctorate in my view. How many academic-degree-holding doctors are as committed and informed as he is? And his work remains alive and ongoing, not ossified in some research thesis filed in an archive somewhere.

Warm and well-deserved congratulations to Dr. Martin Carthy MBE

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 06:07 AM

Actually Betsy, not Lancaster, UCLAN is in Preston. I seem to remember that Martin has a doctorate from Sheffield as well?

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: stevewise
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 06:11 AM

here is the citation from the University of Sheffield website, from when he was awarded a DMus in 2001

DMus
Mr Martin Carthy. An outstanding singer, virtuoso guitarist and scholar whose research involves the collection of song materials, their editing into performance versions and the assembly of contextual songlore. He has been described as 'the single most influential and celebrated living figure on the English roots music scene', and his career has encompassed the whole of the 'revival' period in British folk music from the 1960s onward. He lives in Yorkshire. He is appearing on stage in Sheffield next month and on 13 November he is giving a recital of English song with his partner Norma Waterson in Firth Hall (beginning at 7.30pm).

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 06:20 AM

Martin ,apologies for the Lancaster / UCLAN mix up , and Stevewise, got somewhere near to the crux of my question re:- "wording " as the citation refers (twice) to English rather than British . I was curious about this element. No big deal - just curious.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 06:26 AM

Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke. Well done that man.

D.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:49 AM

In Germany if you have two doctorates you get both in your title.

He would be Doctor Doctor Carthy.

Goebels had six doctorates.

so he was doctor Doctor doctor doctor Doctor doctor Goebels

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:06 AM

He may have had six doctorates, but he had no balls (at all!).

Anyway, congratulations to Martin.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:09 AM

yah congratulations!

The secret about you being the MC in MCHammer is safe for the moment......

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:03 AM

at all, at all, at all, at all, at all, (plus Melodeonboy's at all - that'll do nicely.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:12 AM

I feel a Song Challenge coming on...

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:21 AM

Surely not Doctor Doctor Carthy - but Doc Doc Martin.

I'll get mi coat.....

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Pleb
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:35 PM

Jesus Christ
This realy debases the currency. A doctorate therefor should be awardered to everybody who just enjoys what he /she is doing, street cleaners,air hostesses, nurses ... People who really work hard writing a thesis or medical doctors must realy feel pissed off when an entertainer who just plays music for a living and fun gets such an award.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:58 PM

Lighten up! its an honorary doctorate - like Bob dylan got.

Its not like he gets to undress your wife or examine her tonsils or anything.

I think we can trust MC not turn up at a road accident and say, stand back I'm an honorary doctor.......

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:11 PM

Well said, Al.

Martin's honorary doctorate in Music was awarded by the University of Sheffield in July 2002. On an equivalence basis, he's done quite as much as the majority of mus.doc holders who earned their qualifications via the formal academic route; the point, though, is that it's an honorary title awarded as a recognition of achievement in the field rather than an academic qualification as such. There is no devaluation of formal academic qualifications involved.

The full citation can be seen at  http://www.folk-network.com/miscellany/carthy.html

The University of Central Lancashire award -an honorary fellowship- is from the dept of Arts, Humanities & Social Sciences. Details don't seem to be available as yet, but the ceremony was only on 17 July.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:48 AM

Firstly Many congrats to Doc Martin!

I remember being at a gig presented by John Peel, (Orbital IIRC) just after he had been awarded a Doctorate from some place or other, and he informed the audience (well, the female members anyway), that if at anytime during the evening they felt faint, he was now legally entitled to help by loosening their clothing....

Don't think anybody took him up on the offer.

Well done Martin

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM

Doctorates from British universities can be awarded in two ways, either a thesis and a viva examination or (occasionally) by the submission of a body of published work followed by the viva. Arguably Martin's vast body of published work (i.e. his recordings and their erudite sleeve notes)could be sumitted (as if he'd want to!) to a university for consideration for a Ph.D. Newcastle, perhaps?

Guest Pleb - technically the person you visit when you're feeling unwell is not a doctor, but a medical practitioner. Their title of 'Doctor' is a courtesy, just like the 'Captains' of merchant navy vessels who are, of course, 'Masters.' Given the universal usage of the word 'Doctor' for medical practitioners, it will never change but people with Ph.Ds are the 'real' doctors.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 05:03 AM

Or, if you're a medical-practitioner-doctor you can study and work for a bunch more years to become a surgeon, and you will then gain the grand title of... "Mr."

Who thought that one up?

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:11 AM

No idea who thought it up but Bill Bryson managed a best selling book about such quirks!!

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:19 AM

To Pleb
"People who really work hard writing a thesis or medical doctors must realy feel pissed off when an entertainer who just plays music for a living and fun gets such an award."

You are so wide of the mark with this statement that it's beyond belief. Have you actually heard of Martin Carthy or are you not even vaguely aware of what he's done for the traditional music of the UK? His influence and lifetime commitment cannot be overstated. You do understand that he isn't one of those people down the pub who sings Fields of Athenry or Wild Rover on a Saturday night? He is a humble, erudite and indefatigably enthusiastic man whose massive body of research and output would be worthy of many other accolades.

Another thought has just occurred to me - are you one of those wind-up merchants who seem to haunt this forum for the sole purpose of being contentious because they don't really have a considered opinion on anything? (the main reason that I decided to end my membership).
Martin Ellison

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:26 AM

Mr Ellison
Nicely put.
Luckily there are many people on this board who have many delightful insights to offer.
I've learnt a lot about the US take on Trad music on these threads.
But, there will always be wankers about.
Just ignore them.
Nice to see you the other week, must talk about the Ran Tan stuff sometime.
But, I digress
Mr Carthy may be humble, erudite, and indefatigable, but he has appalling taste when it comes to dressing gowns!

Onwards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:33 AM

What's all the fuss about? It's only a polytechnic anyway! ;-)

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:35 AM

Oh and while I'm on Mr Ellison

Tsk Tsk, you mentioned the At Henry song......
Go to Jail, Go directly to jail, Do not pass go, Do not collect 200 pounds.

Ralph (Most displeased)

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:40 AM

Mr Shaw.

Ooooooh Nooooo!!

All Polytechnics were up graded to University status a few years ago...
Apparently the Mortar Board manufacturers had fallen on hard times, and pressure was put on the government by the House of Lords.

(Also, Mortar Boards make pretty good frisbees, apparently)

I'll get me gown.....

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:54 AM

I recently had the pleasure of attending a conferring at Edinburgh University where my wife was receiving a (non-honorary) doctorate. The tradition in that institution is that graduates approach the Chancellor or a representative and are tapped on the head with a medieval student's bonnet. As there were several hundred degrees to confer, the direction of the flow past the august personage was reversed halfway through - so that he could practice his backhand, I suppose! It meant, of course, that no mortarboard or any other funny headgear was worn since it would have been sent flying!

Regards
p.s. The process is known as "gettin' a dunt from John Knox's breeches" for some reason.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:04 AM

"Gettin' a dunt from John Knox's breeches"

Sounds like a nice way to spend a rainy Saturday afternoon.

Do you have Mr Knox's phone number perchance? And what's his hourly rate?

A Salivating Ralphie!

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:13 AM

Can't see that getting a dunt ("thump" or "wound or mark therefrom" , per Chambers Dictionary ... I do love looking things up in the dictionary!) would be a pleasant way to spend any Sunday afternoon !! Maybe this says something about young Ralphie's life style that's better kept quiet ???? [grin]

Oh and by the way, Ralphie - mortar boards don't make good frisbies - we tried that in my days at uni many moons ago ... it's the shape you know ... it's not terribly aerodynamic.

To revert to the proper gist of the thread, many congratulations to Martin on getting further due recognition for his good work.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:32 AM

Doh ... or even a Saturday afternoon ... wishing my life away there. And I'm not looking to get dunted ... shopping is the order of the day ... mind you, even dunting might be better than that!!!

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:42 AM

No, the most aerodynamic headgear of all it the traditional French one. Have you not heard of Chuck Beret?

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:48 AM

Congratulations!!! Yippeee!
Alice

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Santa
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:55 AM

Shame they didn't announce it locally beforehand - we could have popped in and joined in the chorus. Not sure how well that would have gone down in academic circles, but so what?

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: fat B****rd
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 02:48 PM

Congratulations Mr Carthy. Apparently graduates are not allowed to throw their mortar boards in the air in celebration as they (mortar boards) can cause injury when they fall.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 03:28 PM

Ah - Dr Carthy wouldn't have a mortar board to throw - graduands receiving their doctorates usually wear a soft (Elizabethan) bonnet.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,Dr Will Kaufman, University of Central Lanca
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:54 AM

Greetings - To clarify, Martin Carthy was awarded an Honorary Fellowship, not an Honorary Doctrate, for 'achievements in the world of music'. I nominated him myself, and hosted him throughout the day. He sang and played 'Bonny Woodhall' - a wonderful performance (by a wonderful man).

As I've just written to my former student, Martin Ellison, the University of Central Lancashire has a proud folk pedigree now, not only through having one of the country's best melodeon players (Mr Ellison) and best young singers (Laura Hockenull) as alumni, but also having Martin Carthy as an Honorary Fellow. I personally couldn't be happier!

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:08 AM

Laura Hockenhull's mother is Helen Hockenhull, who as Helen Watson was one of the Muckram Wakes. Nice to see the family talent being carried on!

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Kampervan
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:14 AM

Is a Fellowship graded higher than a Doctorate?

Either way, he deserves them both.

Congratulations.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:57 AM

Mortar boards - isn't that the same as a hod?
Doc Martin - I like the sound of it!

The award is thoroughly deserved. Well done Mr Carthy. It's the best accolade I can bestow, though to us you're "Martin" with the familiarity of fandom.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:40 AM

Sorry Will - I misunderstood. I don't know where I got doctorate from, it's been a long time since I strolled in the halls of academe.

Also other readers may like to know that Dr Kaufman is also something of a folk hero and currently presents a show about the life and work of Woody Guthrie. See link below.

http://www.uclan.ac.uk/facs/class/humanities/staff/kaufman1.htm

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

yeh go on tell us Richard, Woody Guthrie's not really folk music - not by the 1954 definition....

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:12 AM

And by your definition Al since Dr Kaufman is plainly not a horny-handed son of toil (or does it have to be unemployed and unemployable?) he can't be a "folk hero".

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:39 PM

Absolutely Richard - I can see you're getting the hang of this folkmusic business....albeit slowly.

theres something faintly ridiculous about a guy holding up a commie like Guthrie as an icon of creative endeavour, whilst the pension plan's ticking nicely away and the ISA's are piling up.

And something's a bit sinister about the way all these guys have to be dead. i mean Jack Hudson's there working away totally unregarded and being castigated as not really folk music and a pseudo yank. 40 year serious creative endeavour under his belt - but he really will have to have life pronounced extinct before they start doing the musical about his life.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Will Kaufman
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:32 AM

Hey, thanks for the Guthrie plug, Martin - much obliged.

As for the wee little drummer, well, we haven't met, but he seems to think that he knows a lot about me - everything from my retirement plans to the hardness or softness of my hands. He sits in judgement about my Guthrie project, which is both 'faintly ridiculous' and 'a bit sinister' - 'faintly ridiculous', I assume, because of my soft hands and my retirement plans which, I repeat, he knows nothing about; a judgement based on a ludicrous and antique perception of the class divide in an era when some of the poorest wage slaves are dressed in shirts and ties and are chained to computer terminals. My project is 'a bit sinister' because Guthrie is dead and because my programme isn't about Jack Hudson ... well, my job and my avocation is to teach American history - and to try to do it through interesting ways, such as live song - and since I'm dealing with history, the odds are that I'll often be dealing with dead guys - sorry. (No disrespect to Jack Hudson, who I'm glad is alive and well and whom I hope to hear in person some day.) As for the wee little drummer, if it's indeed his habit to introduce himself to perfect strangers by mocking their good intentions and efforts, then I can't really say it's a pleasure to meet him.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:45 AM

Sorry Mr K - you were a prawn in the unending game of me and richard insulting each other.

I wouldn't dream of challenging the merit of your work - but a creative opportunity to sneer at Richard is never to be sneezed at.

I'm sure your work is quite splendid, and your students you should feel honoured to receive to receive guidance and help from someone with enough good taste to be a Woody Guthrie fan.

Subject: RE: Honorary doctorate for m.carthy
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:06 AM

I have an 'earned' doctorate, a PhD, but I certainly don't begrudge Martin Carthy any number of 'honorary' doctorates. He has made a significant contribution to knowledge in the field of *English* folk music, one more important than many dry old dissertations, the only purpose of which was to get 'Dr' in front of someone's name.