'5000 Morris Dancers'

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:46 AM

BS actually means Breeze Shooting, a general heading for non-music discussion & a more levititious exchange...

Meanwhile...

how on earth did you come up with that?!

It made perfect sense in the context of your other arguments, for example: it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise. It actually reads like you disagree with the Left for allowing in immigrants because their sole intention is to become terrorists. If that's not what you meant, I apologise, but strongly suggest you implement a regime of disambiguation.

and I hope we can stay on such matters, as RM requested

As I suggested above, this thread was never simply about Morris Dancing, beginning as it does with a culturally divisive catalogue of English Dances & Musical Instruments, most of which amount to the hobbyist concern (as oppose to the living tradition) of but a tiny minority of the 50 million or so human souls currently resident upon English soil, whatever their ethnicity. You might as well ask for a massed model railway display or a parade of vintage Ford Anglias.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM

Just a thought.
WAV was asked to move his many and various poem threads to the BS section of Mudcat a while ago, which he did.
For those that are new to this site...
BS means Bull Shit.
Best place for him, I think.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

Diane ,I agree.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

I just re-read these 199 posts after getting back from looking at the building site where it's all going to happen. And I don't really care whether 5,000 Morris dancers (if they can be mustered) do anything at all there in just under four years time. I very much hope to be somewhere else.

200 posts. What a waste of time and energy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:27 PM

Meanwhile, remember this?

The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance, Ren Fair Style

Dear Lord, that's awful. I do like the snoods, though. We must be due a snood revival.

(You didn't make it to the Beech either? Shame.)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

"The part I posted above basically says that all immigrants are terrorists" (IB)...how on earth did you come up with that?! It's, as I explained above in prose, about the need for nations to accept genuine asylum seekers who experience trouble in their own country, which I see as a LEFT-wing policy (and, on my site, which you decided to abstract it from, when I'd asked you not to, those letters are in bold print; and the rest of the poem, at least, IS also needed for clarity).
"Also, out of genuine curiosity, I also wonder - are there as many as 5000 Morris Dancers in England?" (IB)...don't know, but I think members of The Morris Ring would have some idea, and I hope we can stay on such matters, as RM requested...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Insane Beard
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:43 PM

I thought that you would have agreed with at least part of this argument - i.e., the part you posted above.

The part I posted above basically says that all immigrants are terrorists, does it not? Which ties in with your wonderful slogan it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise. How can I possibly agree with that when it clearly isn't true? If this isn't what you mean, WAV, then by all means clarify.

I wonder where Romany / Traveller culture fits into your scheme of Englishness or else a Multi-Cultural World.

Also, out of genuine curiosity, I also wonder - are there as many as 5000 Morris Dancers in England? I'd love to have the exact numbers. Is it true there are more Morris Dancers in America than there are in England? Does this matter?

Meanwhile, remember this?

The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance, Ren Fair Style

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:30 PM

I'm tired of this, WAV. Thread after thread, whatever the ostensible subject, you proclaim that you're questioning immigration, on the grounds that multiple cultures shouldn't live together, then protest vociferously against any suggestion that you're racist. It's about as convincing as Ian Paisley claiming to be a peacemaker, and not much more funny.

I'll try and get through to you one more time.

Vera says: "I've got nothing against poofs, I just wouldn't want them down our street". Vera doesn't think she's prejudiced against gays, but I think it's pretty clear that she is.

Joe says: "I like women, but I wish they'd stay at home and let men do the work". Joe genuinely doesn't dislike women, in their place - which is in the home, as far as he's concerned. Because he doesn't feel hostile and aggressive towards women, Joe doesn't think he's a sexist - but it's pretty obvious that he is.

WAV says: "I love the world being multicultural, but trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic". WAV genuinely doesn't dislike blacks and Asians, in their place - which is not in England, as far as he's concerned. Because he doesn't feel hostile and aggressive towards blacks and Asians, WAV doesn't think he's a racist...

Any clearer?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:26 PM

Do you lot know anything about racism, do you know as a romany if i bought land to live on and applied for planning permission, the chances are it will not be granted , if you as a non romany bought the same bit of land for the same reason and applied for planning, it would be granted. NOW CUT THE CRAP AND GET BACK TO THE THREAD, ive only been on mud cat a while and already i can see bitching back biting and general crap. Oh and as an aside do you know romani dont have a bad name for non roma, the nearest you get is gorga, meaning of non romany descent, yet you lot think nothing of calling us as many bad names as possible, ie pikey, gipo, didikoi, etc, end of my input until we get back to something sensible.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:01 PM

IB - Some of the poems in my collection are more dependent on the poems around them than others, and I've never included that one (75) in my "Weekly Walkabout" (BS thread). But, in it, I'm looking at immigration, including the idea that there will probably always be a need for genuine asylum seekers to be helped by other nations; and, in another poem, I detail that I think it should be the nearest (especially in terms of culture) safe nation that does so - via the UN. I thought that you would have agreed with at least part of this argument - i.e., the part you posted above.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM

I asked you not to post my poems willie nillie, IB,

Quotation is sound critical method, WAV - I'm not posting your verse, rather using your words to illustrate my interpretation of them & the ideas they convey. Regardless of what your intention might have been, their meaning is, in any context, quite unambiguous.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

"Yes England, e.g, is (or was until about 50 years ago) an old old blend of mostly European cultures."...I'm not sure what context I was responding to there

You were responding to your ideas on immigration being questioned with regard to the historical nature of British Culture being made up of countless thousands of years of immigration.

but sensible people would understand that as a statement of fact, IB. It, and the following quote, is NOT criticising people from any particular part of Europe or anyware else. So it's not "If someone says, e.g., I don't mind people coming here from that part of the world, but I hate the ones from there, that IS racism -

Sensible people would rightly infer that the subtext here, just as the subtext of your Catalogues of English Dances & Musical Instruments that opened this thread, is one of racial & cultural exclusion in which you are as good as saying you hate non-white English cultures & question their right to be here.   

but it is NOT my stance" from me that is "bollocks" - it's your attempt at analysis; other attempts see you come up with conclusions like this: "Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway."..."the lot of them"?

My expressed opinion on New Labour is exactly that, WAV - an expressed opinion; as such it is personal, and entirely unpublished. Likewise, when you call me an extreme pro-immigrationist you are interpreting an expressed opinion, albeit a lack of one because I have not expressed my views on immigration one way or the other - rather, I have offered you a few salient truths on the situation in response to your published ideas on the subject. There is a subtle but important difference here; you choose to publish your ideas, therefore it is I, your public, who has the right of criticism.

And, on the "Cambridge Folk Festival" BBC "highlights" noted above, there was no clog or Morris dancing, and not one song was sung the unaccompanied, centuries-old, way of our forebears - and sort of thing does make me defensive in the way that RB just noted. And if you believe that to be the case, IB, aren't you also at least a tad disappointed with the BBC?

Like most folkies, I get my unaccompanied folk singing in context, WAV - I go to festivals, singarounds, folk clubs; I plunder the archives for field recordings of source singers, and I study books, manuscripts & collections. I do this because I love it - because I'm a boring old traddy. What happens at The Cambridge Folk Festival is of no concern to me - not my bag I'm afraid, so I don't go, and I don't watch it on TV either; TV isn't for folk music, unless there's something of archive interest on, like the BBC4 programme about Bob Copper I watched a while back, but that's pretty exceptional I'd say. The sort of folk you're on about isn't a spectator sport; it's a doing thang, as much about context as content; and that just doesn't translate to mass media, which is but one of the reasons I love it.

What you really need to do is study this stuff, WAV - if you love it, enjoy it for what it is, and enjoy it whilst you can because it's only there because people are doing it, for the love of it, the passion; as such it's entirely empirical, existing as it does in a state of constant & perilous flux, but that's in the nature of folk. My maternal grandfather was a champion clog dancer in the Durham Tadition; long dead before I was born, but none of his children bothered with it, and I dare say he didn't force them to either. Now there's more people doing it than ever, but that doesn't mean it belongs on fucking television. Shit, man - television is the reason people aren't singing any more - because they're stuck in watching TV when once upon a time they would have been out there doing it! So ditch the TV and get yourself out there, WAV - seek it out, join a morris side, buy some clogs, have some fun why don't you. Your Own Good Culture needs you, WAV - it needs your active input & your active involvement & participation; it needs your passion, and your faith, & your enthusiasm. One thing it does not need, however, is your cranky notions & misguided manifestos - so for God's sake, leave the Walkabouts at home. You want a bonny clog dancer by your side sipping mead whilst watching swans gliding on the willow licked waters of The Ouse Burn? Trust me, self-publishing contentious & entirely subjective polemic ne'er won fair lady.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:40 AM

I asked you not to post my poems willie nillie, IB, and you haven't done that for ages - that's only part of poem 75 (refering to the help for genuine asylum seekers that I do support), from my collection, which does have a (c) on it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:03 AM

If, however, it is acceptable for one group of persons to be proud of their heritage and/or culture and to wish to preserve and defend it so must it be for others.

Such quaint concepts as an English Heritage and/or Culture are entirely a matter of subjective interpretation, choice and recreation, and therefore have no currency whatsoever with regards to their political or human cause - and this is as true of English Folk Song, Music and Dance as it is of the Coal Mining, Country Estates, or Steam Engines. Unlike Coal mining, Country Estates & Steam Engines however, with English Folk Song, Music and Dance there is nothing to preserve that isn't doing rather better in the context of the England of 2008 than it was in say, the 1950s, which is WAV's cut-off point for English Cultural Purity, before we started -   

Letting people
Enter a state
For factors like
Terror through hate.

Thus, when WAV says English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture,society suffers, he is, as ever, talking out of his arse.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM

"Yes England, e.g, is (or was until about 50 years ago) an old old blend of mostly European cultures."...I'm not sure what context I was responding to there, but sensible people would understand that as a statement of fact, IB. It, and the following quote, is NOT criticising people from any particular part of Europe or anyware else. So it's not "If someone says, e.g., I don't mind people coming here from that part of the world, but I hate the ones from there, that IS racism - but it is NOT my stance" from me that is "bollocks" - it's your attempt at analysis; other attempts see you come up with conclusions like this: "Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway."..."the lot of them"?
And, on the "Cambridge Folk Festival" BBC "highlights" noted above, there was no clog or Morris dancing, and not one song was sung the unaccompanied, centuries-old, way of our forebears - and sort of thing does make me defensive in the way that RB just noted. And if you believe that to be the case, IB, aren't you also at least a tad disappointed with the BBC?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM

If, however, it is acceptable for one group of persons to be proud of their heritage and/or culture and to wish to preserve and defend it so must it be for others.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM

If someone says, e.g., I don't mind people coming here from that part of the world, but I hate the ones from there, that IS racism - but it is NOT my stance.

Bollocks WAV - by your own admission that is exactly your stance. In response to England's age-long multi-cultural history you say:

Yes England, e.g, is (or was until about 50 years ago) an old old blend of mostly European cultures.

White cultures in other words, WAV; and, because of non-white immigration:

English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture,society suffers.

Your words, WAV - not twisted, nor yet taken out of context.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:05 AM

So what is your stance? You don't hate people from other parts of the world, but you do mind them coming here?

I'll spell it out once more. If you believe (as I'm confident that you do) that trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic, then you must think that brown-skinned people should either become English or leave England - or, if possible, not come to England in the first place. And if you believe that when people lose their own culture, society suffers, then you must think that brown-skinned people either can't or shouldn't become English. So they should either leave England or not come here - all of them, not because of who they are as individuals but because of what they are.

Or, as I said before, "you want fewer people with the wrong kind of suntan to be allowed entry to England's green and pleasant land".

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:58 AM

Yes what you say is an example of racism, and that particular brand of racism may be something that you do not believe, but it does not mean that what you do believe is not in itself racist.

Just because all men are human, it does not mean that all humans are men.

Likewise, questioning immigration does NOT make someone a racist, however questioning immigration on the grounds you do, of the mixing of cultures resulting in suffering, is not only illogical, but is a form of racial discrimination.

Have a look at where there are problems with different racial and cultural groups in the UK. What is the root cause of the problems in these areas? If you look closely, you will see it is not that there are people of different ethnic origin living in England, it is usually poverty, drugs, lack of education etc, where it is too easy to make a scapegoat of immigrants.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM

If someone says, e.g., I don't mind people coming here from that part of the world, but I hate the ones from there, that IS racism - but it is NOT my stance.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:29 AM

Racism is where someone says they are all like this or that

No. Racism is prejudice or discrimination against entire ethnic or cultural groups. Racism is looking at the colour of someone's skin and drawing conclusions about them.

You've said that you 'question' immigration on the grounds that

when people lose their own culture, society suffers

and

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic

You also say that these beliefs don't make you a racist. That's the part I don't understand. You can't look at people with brown skins and think "they're all right, they're not English like me but that's OK": according to you, that's not OK (trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic). But you can't look at them and think "they're all right, they're just as English as me", because (according to you) if they were just as English as you that would be a bad thing (when people lose their own culture, society suffers).

In short, if you believe what you've been saying, you cannot not be racist.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:43 AM

Sorry RM - we managed a couple of Morris posts, and I was hoping the latest was from a dancer who might have shed more light on how the different sides might be accomodated in such ceremonies

This thread was never about Morris Dancing, WAV - beginning as it does with a racially biased overview of what might (and implication might not) constitute an English Dance or an English Musical Instrument. As can be proven, not one of these is in any way, shape or form indigenous to an English People, as far as such a people can be proven to exist beyond your exclusively white fantasy of same.

but I, AGAIN, have to defend myself against the extreme pro-immigrationist IB.

You've been asked some very important questions with respect to your published ideology, WAV - questions you continually avoid by throwing up smokescreens, such as the one above. You feel you are under attack, which is ironic given the overall offensiveness of your world-view; a word-view you dedicate your life to the promotion of, and yet somehow lack the courage of your obvious convictions to account for.

You don't like/hate me questioning immigration and encouraging more English culture in England, so you keep trying to brand me as a "racist".

It is not just your questioning of immigration that bothers me, WAV - rather, it is your questioning of immigration coupled with your fantasy vision of what actually constitutes English Culture. What you see as English Culture is, in fact, the hobbyist concern of but a small minority of English People (folkies in other words) without whom it would have died the death long ago. In fact, it might be argued that in terms of actual cultural & social process and relevance it did die the death long ago and what we have now is but a quaint reconstruction lovingly maintained by a handful of dedicated enthusiasts, in much the same way that an old steam engine might be similarly kept running. Actual English Culture is that which is of concern to the any one of the English People (i.e. the 50 million citizens of England whatever their ethnicity or country of origin); so it's a pretty complex beast - and one which has precious little to do with your anachronistic & divisively racist and volkish concerns. As someone supposedly trained in the discipline of Anthropology one would think you would have understood this; but as it stands somewhat contrary to your racially exclusive fantasy, then it would appear you're bending the facts to fit the theories - hardly sound method in any academic discipline.   

And this is how you brand New Labout: "bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them."

I grow weary of political hype & rhetoric, whatever the stripe; I grow weary of their concerns and hypocrisy; I grow weary of the so-called Green issues we're constantly bombarded with; I am weary of Carrier-bag Ecologists and the countryside being fucked over by next to useless bloody windfarms; I am weary with their nannying interference in such cultural issues as fox-hunting & smoking in pubs; I am weary of it all because politicians have no actual connection with life; thus do I call them a bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers. But this is just an opinion, WAV - one which I am, no doubt, entitled to: otherwise, I do not publish my feelings, nor yet actively promote them as the best way forward for humanity, and I welcome & encourage feelings to the contrary just as long as they don't amount to a pig-headed racist manifesto masquerading as the poetic musings of a benign ideologue.         

And this is how you brand yourself: Insane Beard...I don't think your beard is insane.

Insane Beard is not a brand, WAV - it is an anagram of my given name; one of many, I might add, but the most appropriate, I thought, to a folky forum such as Mudcat.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:37 AM

I just gave some of the groundS on which I, and others, question immigration, WR, and none of them are racist. Racism is where someone says they are all like this or that, which I have never done. I have, rather, travelled on a shoestring through about 40 countries, majored in anthropology, with distinctions, at least tried to support the land rights of Masai, Aborigines, etc.. I'd be one of the least racist people in the world, but some of you extreme pro-immigrationists try and brand me so because you don't like immigration, or the amount of it, being questioned/criticised.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:52 AM

You don't like/hate me questioning immigration and encouraging more English culture in England, so you keep trying to brand me as a "racist".

The point is (as I know I've said before) that you're questioning immigration on racist grounds. You believe that having multiple cultures in one state is a bad thing (so foreign people shouldn't come to England and maintain their own culture) and that for people to lose their culture is a bad thing (so foreign people shouldn't come to England and assimilate). You believe that different cultures, ethnicities, races should be kept separate - regardless of what the human beings involved might want to do. That is racism.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:24 AM

Sorry RM - we managed a couple of Morris posts, and I was hoping the latest was from a dancer who might have shed more light on how the different sides might be accomodated in such ceremonies - but I, AGAIN, have to defend myself against the extreme pro-immigrationist IB.
You don't like/hate me questioning immigration and encouraging more English culture in England, so you keep trying to brand me as a "racist". And this is how you brand New Labout: "bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them." And this is how you brand yourself: Insane Beard...I don't think your beard is insane.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:14 AM

Meanwhile, I still await your response to my last post of yesterday.

My last post directed at you that is.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:13 AM

but I wouldn't resort to that kind of extreme language.

WAV - the language you do resort to is as obscene & offensive as any I've read; your manifesto is one of racist cultural revisionism in which the objective glories of human reality are eschewed in favour of the subjective neuroses of a bitterly twisted personal fantasy. History teaches us that few things are more offensive than that.

Meanwhile, I still await your response to my last post of yesterday.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

...I think Tessa Jowell said something about having opening ceremonIES in various parts of London...not sure about that...but it would provide for different Morris sides!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:51 PM

WV sounds like it could be a long event, perhaps it could be strung out to cover the whole two weeks thus doing away with all that running jumping stuff they insist on.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

...different sides would have to be dancing to the same tune and, as you say RM, that may not be possible...?...when I've seen several - in Durham, Newcastle, and Hexham - they've always taken turns, to different tunes.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

Can we get back to 5000 morris dancers, and not start on immigration, (as one who suffers daily discrimination, due to the fact im of romany parentage.)the one reason it wont happen is they could never afford the beer bill. also would they mix border with cotswold, or rapper with longsword, could be a bloody event if they did.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

No, WAV, it's in italics because it's a quote from my own previous comment.

Yes, you answered me frankly, and I drew out the implications of what you said. It seems to me that the implications of what you said are that foreigners shouldn't bring foreign culture to England (too many cultures) and they shouldn't assimilate (and lose their own culture). Hence that foreigners shouldn't come to England at all.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM

"Or, as I said, You want fewer people with the wrong kind of suntan to be allowed entry to England's green and pleasant land."...I answer you frankly, and then you go back to saying I said things I did not say - even putting them in italics to perhaps make newbies to the thread think that I really did post them - gutter tactics, Pip; and, speaking of which: "Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway." (IB)...I, too, disagree with New Labour on quite a lot, but I wouldn't resort to that kind of extreme language.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

When you're 18 stone, all trousers are are tight - leather or otherwise....

Lightweight! What I wouldn't give to be 18 stone again - though I am working on it. That said, I always manage to wear baggy trousers (invariably Italian Airforce surplus, waist size classified, from The City Surplus stores in Newcastle) and do all my shirt shopping at Big Ozzy's in Leyburn. I decided to lose weight when accused of looking like an American tourist in Edinburgh recently... But, look at that blue advert link below the submit message button - 1 Rule of a Flat Stomach... hmmmm... must investigate....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

I think you're the one who owes me an apology, WAV.

You write:

when people lose their own culture, society suffers

and

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic

So everyone should have a culture of their own, but there shouldn't be more than one culture in each nation. Foreigners shouldn't bring foreign culture to England (too many cultures) and they shouldn't assimilate (and lose their own culture).

Or, as I said, You want fewer people with the wrong kind of suntan to be allowed entry to England's green and pleasant land.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM

No, that wouldn't work - we wouldn't have got it from the Spanish and Basques then. Nor would we be passing it onto the French, Dutch, Germans and Americans.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

WAV also seems to ignore the argument that cultural borders do not exist. In my opinion there is no single national culture.

Culture consists of all the activities that are of significance to us as individuals and as groups such as language, food, art, religion, music and sport.

There are specific aspects of cultures unique to certain geographical areas, and some of these happen to fall in line with national boundaries, but such aspects are only a tiny part of our cultural makeup. None of the above things (language, food etc) can be used to justify linking cultural groups with specific nations. Language is an extremely important factor, yet many nations have more than one official language, with large numbers of people speaking different languages. Much of what makes up our culture has historically spread along routes of trade and migration.

In order to protect England from foreign cultural influence, as well as banning immigration, all foreign films, music, books, websites etc would have to be banned (including the use of Mudcat, bloody Americans and other foreigners putting across their views, we can't have that). The idea of such a cultural purge is absurd.

Now, should we ban immigration to save morris dancing?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:35 AM

No WAV, you haven't answered the question adequately - you never do.

I don't think you're a racist (necessarily) but I do think you use dangerous language and terminology without properly explaining yourself or backing it up. It is very easy to read racist intentions into the stock phrases that you repeat time and time again, and unless you clarify and put a bit more thought into your arguments then other cannot be blamed for drawing their own conclusions. You simply cannot throw phrases like "trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic(...)when people lose their own culture, society suffers" around without an iron-clad reasoning.

While the opinions that you express might pass muster in a smaller, less knowledgeable group of people, Mudcat is an internationally read forum populated by posters who actually know things. You lecture about the role of the EFDSS on threads contributed to by John Adams, Derek Schofield, and Ruth Archer. You argue about traditional music with Eliza. There are lots of people on Mudcat who have devoted their entire lives to traditional music and yet you seem to think that you have. Meanwhile, the only sources that you offer to back up your ridiculous ideas are Wikipedia or your own website of poetry.

If you want to be taken seriously (and I think that ship has sailed long ago) then you need to re-think your ideas and present them in a better way. It is not the act of questioning immigration that causes problems but the motives behind you questioning it, and since you refuse to clarify what those motives are it is only natural that people will jump to conclusions.

As for "good English culture", I think your posts demonstrate that you have a very skewed idea of what English culture is.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:29 AM

Be honest

An auspicious overture if ever there was one...

the same people have asked me the same question numerous times on Mudcat, and I HAVE answered frankly giving several reasons...

Not reasons, WAV - just more helpings of your rhetorical sloganeering.

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic

We've been doing just fine in England these past 10,000 years give or take the occasional scuffle. Invasion results in eventual assimilation & culture is always a matter of change; just clock the names on the list of Bishops in Durham Cathedral after 1066. Not without its problems, but such is history, and such is humanity. Seems to me you feel you can / should control such things; that there exists a higher God-like morality to which we must all be be subjected whether we want it our not; a morality which you alone are privy to. Well, that's been tried, WAV - and it didn't work.

(and even New Labour - having strongly promoted immigration/the multicultural state for nearly a decade - have just begun to lean this way with English tests, etc., for potential immigrants)

Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway.

; ethnic conflict;

Rivers of Blood, no doubt - but such conflicts are the exception rather than the rule, and even then exceptions stirred up by such racist propaganda as you've obviously been suckling on, otherwise there'd be even less.

it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise;

Nice one, WAV - try telling that to the victims of 9/11. Otherwise - where are all these terrorists? Or do you get off the train whenever a Muslim back-backer gets on?

when people lose their own culture, society suffers;

And just who, exactly, has lost their culture? And who is suffering as a result? You see, these are the sort of questions we really need answering here because we've heard all this rhetorical bullshit before and it simply isn't true - on the contrary, in terms of your somewhat myopic vision of what constitutes Our Own Good English Culture, things are healthier now than ever they were. So - where's the problem???

50 million is too many people for the area of land called England; etc.

So what now? Eugenics? Offing the disabled? Repatriating the immigrants? Deathcamps for racially impure? Punishments for couples who have more than one child? Enforced sterilisation of the underclass? What is your answer to this? Because if you see that as a problem (which it isn't) then you must have a solution in mind. That's the worrying thing, all these things you are so resolutely & righteously against that involve the lives and rights of countless thousands of people who must, somehow, be answerable to what you think.

So - enough of the slogans already, WAV; you're not being asked to design t-shirts, rather being invited to give account of your ideas & the logic & reasoning behind them. Take your time - no rush; and please be thorough; I want to see it all accounted for - facts, figures, sources etc. And I want to know just how we have lost our culture and how, for that matter, we are suffering because of it, because, from where I'm standing, nothing could be further from the truth.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM

Let's be, to quote IB, "pro-reality", shall we?

I'm not aware of any countries (i.e. governments) that don't question immigration; that's why they all, to the best of my knowledge, have policies and limits on immigration. If they didn't, they would not be serving in the best interests of their citizens.

Both immigration itself and immigration controls are facts of life just about anywhere in the world. It's almost impossible (unless you're an absolute nutter!) to be "pro-immigration" or anti-immigration" in an absolute sense. What we and others can (and do!) disagree on is the extent and nature of that immigration.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM

Be honest - the same people have asked me the same question numerous times on Mudcat, and I HAVE answered frankly giving several reasons...trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic (and even New Labour - having strongly promoted immigration/the multicultural state for nearly a decade - have just begun to lean this way with English tests, etc., for potential immigrants); ethnic conflict; it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise; when people lose their own culture, society suffers; 50 million is too many people for the area of land called England; etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

But that is WAV's main reasons, he has been asked this question before and has then gone on to talk about the preservation of English (and all other national) cultures, as opposed to stopping immigration for economic or other reasons.

I dont wish to put words in WAVs mouth, however, considering his amazing ability to aviod direct responses to questions, I have to say that this seems to be the reason he has stated elsewhere.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:06 AM

""OK, but why? What are the problems caused by immigration/emigration that you think can be solved by banning it? "

The dangers of cultural dilution, and the need to protect the single, pure English culture seems to be one of the main arguments."

Hang on - I want to hear WAV's answer to this....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Kampervan
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:26 AM

The idea that English society, culture or anything else is pure is crazy.
'Englishness', whatever that is, is an amalgam of several hundred years or more of assimilation of different cultures, peoples, religions.
What we have now is not the end. It must not and cannot be static. It will carry on changing, for better or worse depending on an individuals viewpoint.

All immigrants will bring something new and we should be glad of that. It doesn't negate what we are, it adds to it and should be welcomed.

k/van

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:12 AM

The entire premise of this thread is racist, beginning as it does with a racially biased overview of what might (and implication might not) constitute an English Dance or an English Musical Instrument. As can be proven, not one of these is in any way, shape or form indigenous to an English People, as far as such a people can be proven to exist beyond the perpetrator's exclusively white fantasy of same.

If we accept, as we must, that the only possible definition of the English People is The People Who Have Made Their Lives in England, regardless of ethnicity or country of origin, then what are we to make of such bizarre catalogues other than a rallying call to those of a similarly racist bent to the esteemed author?

Again he urges the UN to make economic / capitalist immigration / emigration illegal, from now on, but he does not explain why. I thus offer him an invitation to do so. You say you are not racist, WAV - I'm afraid, right now, the onus is on you to prove it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:03 AM

"OK, but why? What are the problems caused by immigration/emigration that you think can be solved by banning it? "

The dangers of cultural dilution, and the need to protect the single, pure English culture seems to be one of the main arguments.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:00 AM

"How many times must I say it, Pip: I think the UN should regulate immigration/emigration the world over (REGARDLESS of your "skins"), including making economic/capitalist immigration/emigration illegal, from now on."

OK, but why? What are the problems caused by immigration/emigration that you think can be solved by banning it?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:59 AM

You do realise that that would stop you taking up a job elsewhere, or scientists, doctors, artists etc moving countries?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:55 AM

And you also argue that in England, we should be encouraged to practice 'traditional English customs' eating foods such as stotties instead of curry?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:49 AM

How many times must I say it, Pip: I think the UN should regulate immigration/emigration the world over (REGARDLESS of your "skins"), including making economic/capitalist immigration/emigration illegal, from now on.