Black Church Services

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

Thanks, Michelle, for your comment.

Your description of that church service sounds like it may have been a Pentacostal church.

In the post that I just added to this thread, I noted that people in my church were too "sidity" to get happy. {"Sidity" means "middle class" and probably comes from the word "society", as in the phrase "high society". "Get happy" means "to show by word or actions that you are feeling the [Holy] spirit".

The experience you shared was almost 360 degrees from the formality {as measured by Black churches} of my church-yet they are both Black churches. And both experiences have merit.

I have attended churches like the one you mentioned a number of times. I liked the church services, but I found that my upbringing and my reserved, analytical nature made it difficult for me to really "get in to" the praise & worship.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Ref
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:32 AM

Very enlightening. Thanks for your work on this!

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM

For the sake of helping to preserve this article, I'm posting it in its entirety:

Faded Memories
Ariana Gause | Jefferson County High School
Thursday, March 2, 2006


"Wrinkles now line a face that was once as smooth as peanut butter. Gray hair has replaced a crop of hair that shone black as a stallion. Brittle bones have taken space where strong limbs once lived. Her eye-sight has gotten dimmer and her hearing is nearing extinction. Memories that were once filled with gaiety and excitement of family traditions are fading into an evening sunset; never to return anymore.

This very vivid image is a portrait of my ninety-one year old grandmother whom I admire and respect dearly. From the very onset of my existence, she was an intricate part of my life. Barely out of the womb of my mother, she swooped me into a welcoming world of many promises. Her mother-wit and values of everyday life and living has nurtured me into the young adult I am becoming.

Faded Memories

Her spiritual and religious beckoning has taught me how to appreciate the black church and its traditions. I can relate well to the old hymns sung during revival meetings and on Sunday mornings. Yes, I have a connection to the "Hoop" that black ministers use when preaching the spoken word. The "Big Sunday go da Meetings" where my grandmother's food was the center of attention was days I could appreciate. She would cook that good old soul food and everyone in the church would "ooh" and "ah" about Ms. Janie's "box." You know, back then, the old folks would bring their sweet potato pies, collard greens, corn bread, coconut pies, fried chicken, and all that other good stuff to church in a greasy cardboard box. It may have been greasy, but boy was it tasty.

About three years ago, things began to change, and I began to slowly lose that old lady they call, "Ms. Janie." Now, I don't mean physically because she is still alive, but sadly to say, in another world that only she knows. You see, she has been robbed by that memory monster called Alzheimer.

Faded Memories

She was placed in a convalescent home just one day before Thanksgiving in 2005. This nearly destroyed my life. My daily routine of visiting her at home, and after school was stopped. No longer was I able to sit and chat about the old days and old times. I sadly miss going in and out of Big Mamma's kitchen looking for snacks or for something good to eat she has prepared. Also, the trip to church on Sunday mornings used to be enjoyable and funny. I can see her now strutting up her walkway in her white suit and white hat to match.

Faded Memories

All of the above memories are so precious that I wish I could capture them and lock them in a safe-deposit box. I will forever cherish the moments and tuck them in the bosom of my heart. I must face reality and realize that the memories that once were are now gone and are fading into an evening sunset that will never rise again.

Faded Memories

I love you Ms. Janie and will never forget the wonderful and glorious times we spent together. Your beautiful memories will never be forgotten because they will forever dwell in my heart. I salute you as my African-American hero because you have taught me how to live in a mean world. You are the fabric that is woven into a quilt of values. Every patch has significance meanings. Your insight and strong wisdom has provided inspiration, guidance, and determination for me to follow.

From the Tuesday, February 28, 2006 printed edition of the Augusta Chronicle

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:MDY2ba7rKgoJ:chronicle.augusta.com/blackhistory/06/essays/highschool_1st.shtml+memories+of+b

-snip-

Does anyone know what is meant by "The Hoop" as it is referred to in this sentence:

"Yes, I have a connection to the "Hoop" that black ministers use when preaching the spoken word."

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: LilyFestre
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:16 AM

During the late 1980s & early 1990s, I was living in a suburb of Atlanta, Georgia and going to college. My best girlfriend's name was Earlene and she was dating a black man who invited us to go to his church. We agreed and met him one winter Sunday morning (I have no idea of the name or the denomination of his church) at his church on the south side of the city. I remember it being kind of a cold day and we had to walk a few blocks from the train and I was looking forward to being inside the church where things would be warmer. We got inside and the first thing I noticed was that there was no heat. Second thing I noticed, I was the whitest person in the universe. Earlene is Hispanic and she was the only other person in the room that was not a dark shade of brown. Coming from a rural northern town where there were only 2 black families in the entire town, this was an unusual experience for me. I wasn't uncomfortable but more like...hmmmm...so this is what it's like to be the minority. So anyway, we met up with her boyfriend and we were welcomed into the church as we would have been at any other open church. Then the music started. There were drums, an electric guitar, singing by everyone in the building (there was no choir, no choir director, no song leader), no stuffy hymnals....there was a lot of praise going on. And dancing. And women passing out with ushers coming to cover them with blankets in case their skirts had risen...the music went on for an hour and it was then that I understood why there was no heat...there was no need for it...we were all up and moving and singing and having a grand time. The sermon was inspiring, interesting and captivating and I loved every single second of it. If there was such a church here, in northern PA, I'd be there, every week. It was a place that brought the feeling of joy...not that all church services don't have that aim in mind, but this was down to earth, easily understood by all and I didn't feel any pretense amongst the parishoners or the ministers. I remember feeling very welcomed. It was a very loving service, not just the message of God but the love for one another too.
    It was probably the best church service I attended, EVER!

Michelle

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM

[The only change that I have made to this comment is adding the word "pianist" that I inadvertently left out of a sentnce]


Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM

Jerry,
I've read through this thread with great interest and also want to thank you for bringing it back again.

I wanted to share a little bit now and more later..

I was raised in a Black Baptist church in New Jersey. Union Baptist Temple had [and still has] a congregation that for the most part was too 'saditty' to get happy.

When I was growing up [in the 1950s-mid 1960s] there were a number of church choirs that were divided by age and there was also a men's choir..During that time there was a children's choir, a Gospel Choir [made up of older women and men[, a young adult choir, called the 'Spiral Chorus', that was my mother's choir, a men's choir, and a mass choir. The Spiral Chorus sung the more innovative, uptempo gospel songs. In contrast, notwithstanding their name, the Gospel Choir sung anthems and hymns and slower gospel numbers. Besides all this our pastor, Rev. Matthew E. Neil was a singer preacher with a wonderful voice..

The choirs would rotate Sundays..I always preferred the Sundays when the Spiral Chorus sang..

Our chruch organist was a classically trained musician who eventually worked for the school system as a pianist. Our church pianist read music but [and] was a much more down home type musician..In later years I understood that there had been some tug of war between which style of music and accompaniment was best..Yet it seemed to me that they complimented each other well. As one might expect from their musical backgrounds, Mrs. Burke, the classically trained organist was the director of the more conventional Gospel choir, and Mrs Winstead the down home pianist was the director of the Spiral Chorus.

At that time we had no drums or guitars, saxophone or any other musical istruments in our church save the tamborine that was sometimes was used by the Spiral chorus. I also vaguely recall that some individual church members would sometimes bring their own tamborine to church, but this was very rare.

Of course times have changed and that church now has a drummer and a guitar player [but still no saxophone and usually no tamborines]
Clapping off beat is rare in that church now-though I recall that when I was young".

-snip-

I should also mention that this church {which I refer to as my "home church"} also has a trumpet player who accompanies the pianist, electric guitarist, and snare drummer for all the congregational songs. The drummer appears to usually accompany the choir's songs. However the guitarist and the trumpet player appear to only accompany the pianist for the congregational songs. Regrettably, when I visited that church {I live about 7 hours away}, there's usually no organist playing along with the pianist.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:58 AM

Let me return for a moment as to why I started this thread. As I mentioned in my first post, this thread grew out of this earlier thread Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop

Here is an excerpt of the initial post to that thread:

Subject: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wilco48 - PM
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:16 AM

For years, I've been looking for a workshop about the shared heritage of US Black and White gospel music, their common origins, singing styles, etc. Jerry Ramussen (sp?) does this workshop with his gospel quartet!...

-snip-

That thread has been revived several times throughout the years. I have posted information to that thread about 'ways of singing', and may add more. However, I started this thread because I felt that there should be a separate thread about 'ways of worshipping' in Black churches.

That said, I believe that some of the posts on that "'Black/White Gospel Workshop" thread-such as the posts about off-beat clapping- may also fit very well on this thread. For instance, I believe that my initial post to that thread also fits very well on this thread.

Because I feel that it is pertinent to this subject, I'll add that comment as my next post to this thread.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:30 AM

Nick E, you're welcome.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM

Susan, I started this thread because I am interested in helping to preserve memories about Black church traditions.

You are welcome to add your memories and present day experience to this thread. I also welcome your friends {those who are Black and those who are non-Black} posting to this thread.

However, I want to emphasis that this thread is about Black Church Services. Note the plural. We {Black Americans} are not one person. We are many people with varied racial, ethnic, regional, and socio-economic backgrounds. And we have a varied lifestyles, interests, and experiences. Because we are have varied backgrounds etc, our worship services are not the same in every regard.

Just as I never talk about "the Black community", or "the Black man" or "the Black woman", I don't talk about "the Black church". There are many Black churches.

Some African American churches have had and continue to have non-African American members. And most Black churches that I'm aware of have been and continue to be welcoming to non-Black people.

That said, the reason for this thread is not to talk about the racial/ethnic membership of Black churches. The purpose of this thread is to help document information about traditions {or perhaps I should say "ways of worshipping"} that are found in some Black churches. Some of these ways of worshipping within Blach churches are very old. Some are these ways of worshipping within Black churches are modifications of old ways, and some of them are new.

It is important to note that indicating that these traditions were {or are} found in some Black churches does not mean that they weren't {or aren't} found in any non-Black church.

In my opinion, a thread that lists the ways in which Black American churches and White American churches are the same would be a different thread in purpose and in content than this one.

Again, Susan, I welcome your participation in this thread. And I welcome the participation of any other person who posts to this thread who adds to the information about the thread's subject matter.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM

Azizi,

We so often come a cropper on communication; I am not hopeful any of the following will come across as I intend. But I can report on the "Black Church," somewhat, as it exists in the Episcopal Church.

My "basis" of experience:

I have attended three, have friends in a fourth I may get to visit next week, and have friends I will see again this week who have been to our "all-white" mountain-town/rural parish as co-leaders of a weekend event. Our current Diocesan Bishop is AA; recently he was Dean of the Washington National Cathedral. Before that he was Dean of a theological seminary. He is prominent in the Union of Black Episcopalians. He will be at Obama's inauguration. He has at least one ordained family member I know of (in another denom.) I have met once. I met many of his extended family members socially at the time of his consecration.

Then there is the (AA) newly-ordained priest friend of my husband and I; we also had some small part in his process from the Baptist ministry and into the priesthood in our denomination; like our Bishop he has had an interesting journey through denominations, and his wife, I believe, is an ordained Baptist.

We've lost touch with the folks we knew in a large, affluent Black parish in Detroit....

There were AA folk in attendance at the even-more-conservative (non-ECUSA) parish I visited once in LA....

There have been, from time to time, AA students from downstate who have attended the local uni the next town over, who have been to that town's parish church, and who have found themselves at home in the service.

... There are also the AA spouses of these all these priests, bishop, and lay leaders....

My husband, in Chicago, served under an AA bishop and knew him well.


I would venture to say that of the folks above with whom we are still in contact, these are people who don't avoid Mudcat because it's low on AA members, but because they lack time to mess into a busy music website. I consider them my friends (we have so few, even close to home, who we ever get to see often in person), and I hope they consider me (us) theirs. So, like the old saw says, some of my best friends are-- Black! :~)


To the extent that I can, I will tell you what I know they would report to you:

Throughout the US Episcopal Church ("ECUSA"), communion is communion is communion, and is the same as in every other ECUSA parish-- diverse as to theological slant on the basic Anglican theology, but liturgically exactly the same. Communion is communion, and liturgy is liturgy.

The prayer book we all use is online and one can read the communion rite there for a complete description of the priest's action, the people's action, and the options available. At the ECUSA website I am sure there is great theological description of the meaning of it all.

At the Church Hymnal Website one can learn about the music resources available to all parishes that are used during communion. Our (all-white) parish has used "the" "Black" hymnal published there, and I have also seen the mainstream 1982 Hymnal at all of the above parishes, which contains largely European hymnody adapted for the US. There is a new hymnal some parishes use that blends all these strains with "praise" music.

In the ECUSA, there are theological strains (at what are called "renewal" parishes) that would have familiar elements to Pentcostal worship, but I have never attened these and I do not know their AA participation. Regardless, the music, communion, and liturgy will be the same as already described. (There may be more extemporaneous verbal expression, dance, preaching, etc.; but this will be theologically based, not color-based.)


From my observations, there are still hats on some AA ladies' heads in Episcopal church.... about as many as there are on blonde, white heads in our old-fashioned, affluent parish. I did see a few more in Detroit. (I wore a good one, myself, when we were there interviewing, but it was more due to their anticipated social standing than their "color.")

And I will see, when I next see each and every one of them, if they have any contributions to make to this thread. But they are going to think it silly of me to ask them, I am sure of that. I copied all of the foregoing (not this post yet) onto my laptop so I could take it on my trip along with the anti-racism material I am taking for another purpose. (I'll put this post on it, too, if I hook up the laptop again.)


And I know it's your option to agree to disagree with me anytime, but know this-- I will NEVER catalog my "Black Props" again, in an effort to simply share with you what I know! I offer it here in the hope that you will change your assessment of my credibility so we can get on with doing the important things we do in this crazy world.

I do actually know one or two things. Maybe not too many more than that, but 1 or 2.

An old friend of mine once offered to me that anytime a person didn't want to deal with me on color matters (his terms), I could refer them to him for a reference. At the time he presided over the NAACP unit he'd founded in the little suburban town where I lived and worked. I moved, and since then he's also a little harder to find-- But he was Google-able last time I looked. Dr. Jaslin Salmon. If you run into him in your research-- gosh, tell him I still want to read his manuscript, and hear his stories, OK?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Nick E
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 01:20 AM

Thank you for the time you are puting in.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:08 AM

This reminds me of communion as a little girl, when my grandmother would pin that little floppy white hat on my head
-totallywitit

It just occurs to me that there was a time when every female who attended church, including little girls, but especially women would wear a hat or otherwise have their head covered. Also, females used to wear short white gloves to church.

I'm going back to the 1950s with these memories. But those customs fell by the wayside in the early 1960s. While you may see a few women in the spring or summertime wearing a hat to church, it's not mandatory like it used to be. And it's rare if you see any woman, wearing white gloves in church, except when those happen to be part of the uniform of the ushers or deaconness.

I wonder if the custom of women covering their head came about because the beiief was that the power of the Holy Spirit was too intense for women to bare without something between them and that Holy Spirit {assuming that the Holy Spirit comes from above}.

I'm just guessing here. I'm not sure what is the meaning of the practice of women {and not men} covering their head in church.

Btw, I'd love to 'hear' from others about my recollections and comments. I'm trying to document information about these traditions, and I really don't want to be alone in doing so.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:51 PM

here is another video of a Black church choir singing a Communion song:

Communion Song The Body of Christ
clltube1 ; June 17, 2007

The only comments posted for this video are those praising the song. However, no information is given about the song. The video does not show any footage of the actual Communion service.

For what it's worth, I've never heard this song before. Many of the choir members are reading the words to the song as they sing. This rarely occurs in Black churches I've attended, and may be an indication that this is a new song that the choir is learning.

Note the congregations' praise giving exclamations and exhortations during and after the choir sings this anthem-like song.

The tags for this video include "COGIC" which may mean that this denomination is Church of God in Christ.

The tags for this video also include the words "Family Worship Center Hutchins"."Family Worship Center" may be the name of the church, and "Hutchins" may be the name of the city where this church is located. However, this is just a guess. Unfortunately, the video poster's profile just gives his or her location as "United States",with no information about the denomination or location of this church.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:29 PM

Here is a contemporary arrangement of "Let Us Break Bread Together". As the video title indicates, this is a standard song for Black Baptist Communion services:

Let Us Break Bread Together- Communion Theme Song

posted by BrothaRollins; July 23, 2007
[The Greater Travelers Rest Baptist Church- Decatur, GA]

-snip-

In this video, the congregation remains seated and are served the Communion bread, and then the Communion wine.

Here are some comments that viewer's posted about that video:


Yes, yes, yes!! This reminds me of communion as a little girl, when my grandmother would pin that little floppy white hat on my head. :)
-totallywitit (1 month ago)

[Note-I have no memory of that custom being observed in my church]

**
[This was written In response to a question about the lights being dim in the church]

The celebration in which the church is partaking is Communion. Taking of the bread and wine representing the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The lights go out to resemble the "night" in which the Lord was betrayed. The gloves are just ceremonial for deacons who are passing the bread and wine.
-winterbreeze125 (1 year ago)

[Dimming the lights during Communion wasn't and isn't a custom in my church. However, as I mentioned, the people who were involved in blessing and/or passing out the bread and wine wore white gloves. I believe that this is because of the sacredness of the bread & wine].

**

What are they (ushers) holding a sheet up for?
-tfb3hotmail (11 months ago)

**

That just the way the Deacons do our communion observance, My arm would get tired.
-BrothaRollins (11 months ago)

[At my church, the communion table always sits in front of the church directly below the pastor's podium. On Communion Sunday, the plates of Communion bread and the trays with the very snall goblets of wine are covered with a white table cloth and are brought out at the beginning of the Communion service. Note-the table is present, but not the Communion bread and wine during the regular church service. However, unlike the video whose link is provided above, in my church, the white tablecloth is folded and put aside, marking the beginning of the actual service.

My guess is that the white tablecloth further emphasizes the sacredness of this sancrament. Holding the tablecloth so that the members of the congregation can't see the bread and wine, further emphasizes the holiness of the sacrament and may signify the belief that some things that are sacred may have to be hidden from everyone but the ministers and deacons of the church].

See this comment about the white sheets:

YES! YES! YES! Now this is Church! Back in the dat [sic] when they had the Pot-Belly stove in the from to keep you not warm.... But WOAM! Back in the day when people took pride in taking communion; the mothers would take those white sheets home, and wash them, press them, and iron them, and not take them to the cleaners! Back when every Preacher had a Cadillac! When the Mothers would wear their all white, and the ushers would where those blue outfits.... MAN! I miss Church like this!
-tkj1985 (5 months ago)

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:46 PM

One of the sancraments of Christian churches is "Holy Communion".

To date, I've not been successful in finding any online descriptions of how this sancrament was and is observed in Black Baptist churches. However, these excerpts from the Wikipedia article on The Eucharist provides a basis for my description of Communion Sunday as I remember it being observed in my Baptist church in New Jersey in the 1950s, and how that service is observed in that same church as per my participation in that sevice in 2008.

"The Eucharist, also called Holy Communion or Lord's Supper and other names, is a Christian sacrament commemorating, by consecrating bread and wine, the Last Supper, the final meal that Jesus Christ shared with his disciples before his arrest, and eventual crucifixion, when he gave them bread saying, "This is my body", and wine saying, "This is my blood"...

Ritual and liturgy:

Jehovah's Witnesses

The Memorial begins with a song and a prayer. The prayer is followed by a discourse on the importance of the evening. A table is set with red wine and unleavened bread. Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bread stands for Jesus Christ's body which he gave on behalf of mankind, and that the wine stands for his blood which redeems from sin... A prayer is offered and the bread is circulated among the audience. Then another prayer is offered, and the wine is circulated in the same manner. After that, the evening concludes with a final song and prayer. Only those who are anointed partake as the emblems are passed around the room to all who are present...

Latter-Day Saints

...The Sacrament...is prepared by priesthood holders prior to the beginning of the meeting. At the beginning of the Sacrament priests say individual prayers to bless the bread and water. The bread is passed first after the priests have broken slices of bread into small pieces. All in attendance are provided an opportunity to partake of the Sacrament as it is passed from row to row by priesthood holders. After all have who desire partake, the bread is returned to the priests, who then replace the bread trays and cover them, while uncovering the water held in trays. The priests then say the second prayer and the water is then passed in small individual cups, just as the bread was...

Reformed/Presbyterian
In the Reformed Churches the Eucharist is variously administered... The Presbyterian Church (USA), for instance, prescribes "bread common to the culture". The wine served might be true alcoholic red wine or grape juice, from either a chalice or from individual cups. Hearkening back to the regulative principle of worship, the Reformed tradition had long eschewed coming forward to receive communion, preferring to have the elements distributed throughout the congregation by the presbyters (elders) more in the style of a shared meal...The elements may be found served separately with "consecration" for each element or together. Communion is usually open to all baptized believers, and although often it is reserved for those who are members in good standing of a Bible-believing Church, participation is left as a matter of conscience".
-snip-

With those descriptions as a background, let me share inforamtion about how Communion Sunday was and is celebrated in Union Baptist Temple Church {Atlantic City, New Jersey.

Communion Sunday always occurs on the first Sunday of every month. {However, it should be noted that a singer in this song mentions that the 'old folks' would observe Communion Sunday on the first and the third Sundays of the month}.

On Communion Sunday, the church service is extended, and the actual communion observance takes place prior to the end of the church service. While the entire congregation attended the communion service, those persons who were not "saved" {meaning "baptized", and members of some church, not necessarily that particular church} were not supposed to drink the communion wine or eat the communion bread. However, while church members knew whether persons who regularly attended their church were baptized or not, there was no way of knowing if guests were saved or not. But to "take communion" when you were not baptized was considered to be a grievous sin.

As a child and teenager I recall the "wine" during communion was "Welches Grape juice" and the bread being unsalted crackers that were broken into much smaller pieces. However, last year when I participated in communion at my church, actual wine was provided, though individuals could request grape juice instead of wine. Mind you, children could receive wine as well as adults. The bread was slightly different from what I remembered, but it was still similar small pieces of unsalted crackers.

As a young child, I recall the congregation walking to the communion table in front of the pastor's podium to get the snall piece of bread that had been blessed by the pastor. While the pastor distributes the bread, and later the wine, he quotes Biblical passages about "The Last Supper. When they receive/d their small piece of bread, the members of the congregation would then go back to our seats and when the pastor quoted Jesus' words "This eat in remembrance of Me", everyone would eat the "bread" at the same time. After that the pastor blessed the Communion wine, and church members walked to the front of the church to receive individual small goblets of "wine" which we carried back to our seats, and which we drank all together upon the pastor's words "Drink this in remembrance of me".

When the congregation walked to the front of the church to "receive communion", the members of the choirs would walk down from their seats behind the minister's podium to receive their bread and wine. Prior to this, they and the congregation would be singing songs that were specifically associated with Communion. The last people to receive their Communion bread, and later their Communion wine were the church organist and pianist. A deacon would carry their bread and wine to them as the organist and pianist continued playing.

The tradition of church members walking to the front of the church to receive communion are shown in this video of a Black church service: Communion Sunday (NOV.08)--W.C.McClinton, Pastor

Note how the bread and wine are covered with a white cloth prior to being served. Also note that the pastor and anyone else who touches the platter of "bread" or the globet holders of wine are wearing white gloves.

At some point-I don't recall when, but I was probably a preteen or even younger-the tradition changed. The choir members came down from their seats and sat in the first rows of the church which were left vacant for them. The congregation remained in their seats and round silver plates with pieces of bread on a white cloth napkin were carried to each row by several church ushers {or is it the church deacons?} Everyone would eat the bread together when the pastor quoted those words from Jesus. The ushers or deacons would then pass out the small glass goblets of "wine" {Im not sure when my church changed from using grape juice to using real wine. I was very surprised that the communion wine was real wine when I "took communion" at the church last year, after many years of not being in that church on Communion Sunday}.

At the end of the communion, the solemn occassion changed to the more joyous occassion in which people "extended the right hand of fellowship" to other persons. This was done by shaking the hand of individuals who were standing next to you, in front of you, and across the aisle from you.

****

In my next post to this thread, I'll share links to other videos that I've found on observances of Communion Sunday in a couple of Black Baptist churches. While there appears to be some standard procedures for the observance of this sancrament among Black Baptists, there are some differences that I can see in the practices between these churches, and my home church.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:51 PM

I think I'll stick with Dr. Love's assessement, and I'll ask him where it comes from.

~S~

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

Here's another online interesting online question about the contemporary Black church {posted here with two responses}

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/race/2008/04/have-you-ever-a.html


Dawn Turner Trice: I'm curious to know how many of you have actually attended a "black church?" Let's take Rev. Jeremiah Wright out of the equation for a moment. Here's a bit of history:

Sunday morning worship service historically was the singular guaranteed place where African Americans could go to be somebody. They struggled to achieve "somebody-ness" on other days of the week. They fought invisibility on other days of the week. But Sunday morning was different.

The church was a refuge. Grandparents and mothers and fathers and uncles and aunts and all their children would put on their Sunday-go-to-meetings clothes and head to the church house. Women wore the wide-brimmed hats and long flowing dresses. Men wore crisp white shirts and ties. Children still smelled of the perfumes added to their Saturday night bath water.

Sunday morning gave people a level of dignity they couldn't find on any other day of the week. Monday through Friday, women and men may have worked jobs as janitors or maids, noble and respectable enough. But they had to deal with stuff that wasn't so noble or respectable---the indignity of being called "boy" or "girl," "auntie" or "uncle."

But on Sunday morning, even if just for a few hours, all of those indignities melted away. You could sit next to the black doctor, lawyer, or insurance man; the black teacher, social worker or plumber and know everybody understood what Monday through Friday was like. Nobody's job made them any less immune to indignities. Everybody needed his or her dose of "Precious Lord, Take My Hand." Here, parishioners could shout and sing and have his or her soul prepared for Monday through Friday. My grandmother called it, "Putting on God's body armor."

I've written before that there is quite a bit of diversity among black churches---that's true of back in my grandmother's day and now. Not every minister is a proponent of black liberation theology, like Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Some black churches are so staid they defy the stereotype of parishioners dancing up and down the aisles.

But what is fairly consistent despite the tone and demeanor of the church, is its tradition of being a place where people could feel rooted in their culture as well as biblical principles.

Have you ever attended a black church? If so, what was your experience? Since the Wright controversy, are you at all intrigued to attend one now?

Comments:

Some of the most enjoyable and memorable experieces I have had in any church happened at St. Rosa de Lima Cathoic Church in Bay St. Louis, Mississippi. This is a black Catholic Church that genuinely welcomes everybody, regardless of color.

While fairly wed to the standard Catholic mass, this chuch has its own music (drums and keyboard) and great humor, and is a model for what a post-racial world would look like.
Posted by: Evan | Jul 7, 2008 8:24:48 PM

**

I have been a member of a Black Catholic church for 45 years. Not the same church but always Black and always Catholic. I can appreciate the more tradition Mass but that is not my choice for regular Sundays.

I believe it is accurate to to state that black worship is usually, not always, interactive. The people respond to the sermon. When the Spirit moves, the people shout and move as well. Yes, even in the Catholic Church.

The one thing that I seek from my participation in worship is the spirtual weapons to overcome the world. Good sermon brings the Word of God into our daily lives and helps us to address our present questions and struglgles.

When my white Catholic friend visited my church she told me that it seemed that we believed that God was really listening, that we really beleived he would help us. She doesn't get that feeling in her church. She cried through most of the Mass, for which she apologized. I told that if she could not be herself in her Father's house, where else could go?
Posted by: nessa | Apr 29, 2008 9:37:18 AM

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:40 AM

Through my Internet search I also found this query [posted here with one response:

http://ask.metafilter.com/77000/Help-me-learn-the-basics-of-the-Black-Gospel-tradition

Help me learn the basics of the Black Gospel tradition
November 24, 2007 9:19 PM   

Growing up a white boy in a white Oklahoma church, we always had some small influence of the Gospel tradition, but always sanitized for the white tradition of our past. But when I listen to the old Black spirituals, it affects me like nothing in the Baptist church I grew up with: a sense of the spiritual and the passion that I never felt in my choirs. But where should I start to learn the basics?
posted by fishmasta to media & arts

-snip-

If you're looking for traditional/"old-school" spirituals, your best bet is to find a smaller church with an older congregation, particularly in the Baptist, C.O.G.I.C. or A.M.E. denominations. A good portion of predominately black churches, especially larger ones, have switched to a more contemporary repertoire. However, the "spirit" and passion that you mention are still there, even though the songs are different.

From your question, I gather that you want to be an active participant (vs. a passive observer), as in, actually joining the choir. If this is the case, you might find a larger church to be more accepting.
posted by chara at 10:12 PM on November 24, 2007

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:31 AM

Here's an excerpt from a newspaper article about the photographic book "'Soul Sanctuary" which was produced by Jason Miccolo Johnson

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:URuGu-J5UugJ:www.blackchurchphotos.com/images/bostonglobe.pdf+black+church+traditions&hl=en&

Photographer captures the changing customs of black churches
By Vanessa E. Jones, Globe Staff
May 22, 2006


..."In addition to spotlighting churchgoers, Johnson's camera also inadvertently captured the changes in religious tradition. When the Rev. LeRoy Attles was a child, he remembers, parishioners were more conservative in their practice.' 'Years ago," says the St. Paul pastor, ''in some very conservative churches, when you said 'Amen ,'people would turn around and look at you. Today, unless it's a conservative church, you just won't see that."

On the Sunday of Johnson's second visit to St. Paul, some members of the congregation raise their hands skyward, shout out, and bob up and down as Attles gives his sermon. The faces featured in ''Soul Sanctuary" show a wide range of emotions. ''Today," says Attles, ''people are much more expressive . . . in their approach to God." meeting more needs...

Flipping through the pages of 'Soul Sanctuary," readers also become aware of the dramatic range in sizes of today's black churches. Johnson takes readers inside the intimate space of Jake's Chapel in Greenville, Miss. Buthe also shows the sprawling Ebenezer AME Church in Maryland, with its tiered movie theater seating and video screens behind the choir showing live shots of the service. The increasing size of the congregations and the churches that cater to them has spurred changes in church traditions.

When Johnson, a Memphis native, went to church as a child, he remembers only a few extracurricular opportunities for young people. They could sing in the choir or serve as an usher, he says. Now a church such as Charles Street offers an array of ministries: a nurse unit, a young adult network, and a Christian education department. The church just opened its Ruth Hamilton/Elta Garrett Music and Arts Academy, which helps children learn to read music as the public school system trims its music and arts education programs. ''There are a lot of needs out there that are being met through the church that we don't think about," says Johnson. ''I dare say if you close down the black church, the world would be much, much worse off."New sounds of worship It's in the area of performance where traditions have changed the most. The old-school clapping of hands and stomping of feet, which for centuries provided a cymbal- and drum-like accompaniment to choirs, have been replaced by real drums, guitars, and organs. In an effort to get younger people to feel more comfortable in church, says Johnson, churches are adding praise step teams, praise flag wavers, and liturgical dancers, like the four teens who perform their dance routine in flowing purple dresses just before Attles's sermon on the Sunday Johnson revisited St. Paul.

One change that bothers Groover is the increasing focus on praise and worship music, a genre exemplified by the songs of Kirk Franklin, Fred Hammond, and other contemporary artists. He worries that a new generation of churchgoers know nothing about traditional spirituals, such as ''Ain't Got Time to Die" and ''Ride On, King Jesus," that were first heard during slavery.' 'We're opting for the more contemporary music," says Groover, ''which I think is a wonderful genre. But, please, don't let us lose our music, the music the slaves, our forefathers, our foremothers, used to sing.

Groover tries to stay the change. His church is home to five choirs, including one that sings only traditional gospel. He rotates that choir with others that focus on anthem, baroque and classical, and urban contemporary music to avoid alienating his younger members.'' A church has to embrace contemporary music to remain alive," Groover says, ''otherwise they'll go to the grave."But he refuses to stand by and watch calmly as the appreciation of the old fades. ''A people," he says, ''will only be as strong as a people who appreciate their traditions.

-snip-

[I made some slight changes in the format of this excerpt]

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

Susan, we'll have to disagree on that point.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:17 AM

My main point is that

1.when spirituals are sung in African American churces, they are sung in concert fashion as typified by these links to YouTube videos of "African American spirituals"

I would strongly disagree, from my own observations as well as those reported to me... as I said above. I would modify that statement to say that when spirituals are sung in African American churches and uploaded as YouTube videos, they are sung in concert fashion as typified by links to YouTube videos.

It's the same with our music program. There are AUDIO recordings of the Saturday Night service and its informal, spontaneous music. I have even recorded the principal, formal service (choir and organ). I can guarantee you, though, that the minute someone in hte parish proposes going to video for any purpose, the first focus will be recording the principal, formal service. The choir will be vested in their "best," and they'll be performing-- not hymn-leading-- a complicated choral arrangement. And the intended market for the cost and work of making the video will be church-shoppers, not musicologists or ethnologists. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:10 AM

Excerpt from http://www.thetowntalk.com/article/20090103/LIFESTYLE/901030333/-1/NEWS17

Black churches struggle to blend youth, tradition
Religion News Service • January 3, 2009


..."A battle between good and evil, God and Satan, is taking place at Emmanuel Baptist Church on Halloween night.

In the front of the sanctuary, teenage dancers act out a story of young people overcoming the temptations of the streets. One by one, they resist drugs, sexual advances and violence.

It is the first night of a weekend Youth Explosion, and a band blasts contemporary gospel music in the church on Cleveland's East Side.

The Rev. David Cobb Jr. knows that many older members consider this type of topic and style of worship too worldly for church. But he also knows that young people want a better balance in church life, from sermons that pay attention to the problems of youth to opportunities for dance, drama and contemporary worship...


But many of these churches find that a majority of their members live in the suburbs. The number of people with decades of ties to city churches and traditions is dwindling.

In a generation with fewer attachments to church than any in modern history, relaxed dress codes, expanded musical styles, increased participation in services by young people and the use of video screens and Web sites are no longer merely an option, many black church leaders say.

"If you don't change, you're going to be obsolete," says the Rev. Larry Macon of Mt. Zion Church of Oakwood Village, about 20 miles southeast of Cleveland. Cobb said he is challenging "sacred cows" in music and dress as fast as he can. He uses rap singers, praise dance teams and the Youth Explosion to reach young people in the neighborhood around his church...

The church recently hired a music minister for youth, and Cobb is thinking about adding more contemporary music on Sundays.

Among other plans are creating junior deacons and junior trustees so young people can have a say in the spiritual and administrative life of the church.

The changes cannot come too soon for Emmanuel's youth.

Jazmine Blue, 16, a member of the praise dance team, says when she tries to encourage her peers to come to church, they say, "No man, church is boring."

"I don't want to listen to a lot of older people with their old boring songs" all the time, she says...


The tension is not new. Gospel great Thomas Dorsey, who used the popular music styles of the 1930s to write such church standards as "Take My Hand, Precious Lord," once was labeled "too bluesy" for the church.

What gives the issue of music a special urgency, church observers say, is that one can no longer count on succeeding generations to come through church doors.

Pew Research Center surveys found only 14 percent of respondents ages 18 to 29 attended church more than once a week, half the percentage of those 50 and older.

In his grandparents' day, Cobb says, "Everybody went to church. Church was mandatory until you die." In his mother's day, that changed to "you had to go to church until you were 18, then it was strongly recommended."

"Today, it's basically you can go if you want to," Cobb says.

When they do go, they increasingly "church shop" rather than automatically attend where their parents and grandparents went.

For those churches who stay in the city, some in sanctuaries that date back 60 or 70 years, it is critical not to let traditions such as suits and ties for men and dresses for women get in the way, many church leaders say.

"You don't have to just have one way to praise him," Cobb declares to his congregation at the fall youth day service. "We are just happy to see young people today, praise God."





..








Therein lies the challenge for many black churches, where aging congregations confront a generation whose music, technology and dress clash with century-old traditions.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:02 AM

My apologies for the black font.

I would appreciate it if a moderator would change the text of that post to regular font after the title "Forward on faith: The black church in the city"

Thaks in advance.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:00 AM

Excerpts from http://www.cleveland.com/religion/index.ssf/2008/10/black_churches_in_cleveland.html

Forward on faith: The black church in the city
by David Briggs/Plain Dealer Religion Reporter
Saturday October 11, 2008, 8:00 PM

…"'We've got to quit looking back'

Sunlight streams through the stained-glass windows facing East 79th Street as soloist Evelyn Davis moves back and forth singing, "He's an on-time God. Yes, he is." The women's choir seamlessly blends in with the powerful affirmation, "On-time God. Yes, he is."

One by one, congregation members rise, and sway and clap with the music. Choir director Anita Caswell, who can be a flurry of raised arms and pumping fists when she feels more energy is needed, is beaming, moving in sync with the singers and the congregation.

She does not have to turn around to see the response from the pews. This morning, she knows the Holy Spirit is here.

These are the moments congregations like Emmanuel cherish, spirit-stirring worship that replenishes the pool of faith, which gives members the strength for daily living. It is the source they draw on for the volunteer effort to keep a church tradition in the city alive and to serve the neighborhood with programs from a weekly meal for the needy to computer literacy classes for youth.

Yet as the black church faces the challenges of the 21st century, tradition can be a stumbling block, observers say.

A generation raised on computers, iPods and video games expects more compelling musical and dramatic presentations. They demand the relaxed dress codes they find at work and public places such as theaters and restaurants.

…In the past, "No matter what happens, you went to mama's church. . . . Now mama and grandma are dying and the kids are gone," says the Rev. R.A. Vernon, pastor of The Word Church, a megachurch in Warrensville Heights. "Any church that doesn't catch the switch and make the shift is going to die."

For Emmanuel, making the shift could involve anything from welcoming young people in T-shirts to providing more preaching opportunities for women to offering more contemporary music.

Traditions die hard, however.

When Cobb came to Emmanuel, he replaced the Rev. Sterling Glover, who retired in 2006 after 42 years. The congregation skews dramatically older, with many members in their 60s, 70s and 80s.

Some of his first changes were cosmetic: painting the walls, polishing the pews and installing new lights to brighten the place.

Other changes, such as music programs that appeal to youth and a different dress code so newcomers will not feel like outsiders, will take time, he and church members acknowledge.

Janette Holland, who joined Emanuel in 1926 at age 10, still wears a hat and dress to Sunday worship because "I'm bringing my best to the master." But she, like other members, backs Cobb's efforts.

"We older women have to learn to accept the change. That's the hardest part," Holland says. "We've got to quit looking back." …

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

Here's the hyperlink for http://negrospirituals.com

**

Here is the Index Search For Song Lyrics.

That index has a number of songs such as "Dese bones gwine rise again" which are given in the old dialect that may have been used by some Black people and by some non-Black people in the 19th century, and which probably was exaggerated by minstrel performers.

My main point is that

1.when spirituals are sung in African American churces, they are sung in concert fashion as typified by these links to YouTube videos of "African American spirituals": Morgan State Univ. Choir-Ezekial Saw The Wheel and Howard Gospel Choir - "Deliver Daniel"

2. African American Vernacular English that is retained in the lyrics of spirituals nowadays, reflects contemporary usage and not 19th century usage. Therefore, a sung such as "Dese bones gwine rise again" would be sung as "These bones gonna rise again". Incidently, the "ah" ending in the word "ringa" is added to the word "ring" for rhythmic purposes and not because anyone talks like that.

3. It would be highly unlikely that any song with the "n word" is sung in Black churches or church related functions.

-snip-

Unfortunately, it's also very rare to hear any spirituals sung in contemporary African American churches. See my next two posts for excerpts of two online articles that I found on changing Black church traditions.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Are Black church processionals a dying custom?

Although the choirs at my church still do processionals and recessionals {exit marches} at my church in New Jersey, march based on a number of comments from viewers of this video, this tradition is considered old school {an old custom, not part of contemporary church experiences}.

COGIC Mattie Clark Praise Ministry GE Patterson

"Dr. Mattie Moss Clark Sisters SW Michigan Choir On my way to Heaven"

Description, members of the church choirs march in processional to the organ music. The choir members sway from the right to the left as they move to the choir stand behind the pastor's podium. There is no date given for this video, but, based on the comments, it's more than ten years old.

Viewers' comments from this video:

"This is giving me serious flashbacks. You can't beat old school church. I remember being 14 year old and being the musician {piano, organ} that played for these ridiculously LONG choir processions. I look back on it now and miss the way that we had church".
-dseaberry nov 2008

"[You] Know that's old skool when the choir march in song is longer than the actual song.they are going to sing lol".
-3000 stickman; dec 2008

"Wow! It's a looooooong time since I've seen choirs march in".
Ladymwn8; July 2008

"Oh, Yes! I remember choir processionals! Man this brings back memories!!"
Blessedbythe beat; june 2008

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

Susan, thanks for your comments.

With regard to singing in African American spirituals in 19th so-called Black dialect {the "dees, dos, dem" languaging that is referred to on a recent Mudcat thread on minstrelsy}, the first point I would make is that imo, African Americans are not traditionalist. What I mean by this is that ,imo, we are much more interested in innovation than keeping to old traditions. Vernacular words and phrases are constantly being updated, and created by Black Americans, and we discard many slang terms much faster than Anglo-Americans. This is one of the reasons why 19th century so-called Black dialect is rarely used nowadays by Black spiritual singers. It seems to me that fewer spirituals are being sung by church choirs these days, partly for the reason I already cited, but also because these songs are inextricably linked to the still very painful history of slavery, and of mainstream culture's demeaning attitudes toward Black people both during slavery and after slavery's abolishment. This is particularly the case when those songs are sung with what minstrel's called Black dialect. It's difficult enough for Black people to hear spirituals sung in that dialect, but to hear 19th century and earlier slave dance songs and minstrel songs that to a large extent were based on Black songs, well, let me just say it's deeply offensive.

I can say without any doubt that I've never heard those songs sung that way in my church or any other African American church or any Black community program that I've ever attended or heard about.

In my opinion, the language that is used in these songs mirrors the informal language that is in current use now. For instance, instead of singing "Ringa dem Bells", usually the song is given as "Ringa Them Bells". And instead of using the long retired word "gwine", we use "gonna" [as in "Gonna get to heaven in the mornin'} Note the word "heaven" is used instead of "heaben". Also note that the word "mornin' is clipped as Black and non-Black folks still sometimes use that pronunciation in everyday, informal conversations.

The song "Couldn't hear nobody pray" and the phrase "Aint that good news" are two additional examples of how the retention of AAVE might appear to be somewhat arbitrary until you factor in the adherence to the vernacular language that Black folks use today. "Couldn't hear nobody pray" hasn't been changed to "Couldn't hear anybody pray" and
"Aint that good news" hasn't been changed to Isn't that good news.

[See this song and others on http://negrospirituals.com, a site which in my opinion, unfortunately not only continues to use the retired referent Negro, but fails to capitalize it in its comments]
{The Mudcat hyperlink feature isn't working. I'll add the hyperlink when that feature returns.]

I can understand why "Negro" isn't capitalized in that website's URL, but can't understand why it's not capitalized in that website's commentary. After all, for more than 40 years the standard practice in the USA anyway has been to capitalize the word "Negro" {whereas there is some flexibility as to whether the group referent "Black" should be capitolized. I capitolize this word when it is used as a racial referent, and a number of other people do also. But some people, Black and non-Black, do not capitalize it.

While I'm on the subject, the term "African American" is always capitalized. This is the formal referent for those people who were formerly called "Negro". "Black" is an informal referent for these same people, though "Black" refers to more people than "African American.

**

Lastly, Susan, I recall the practice of members of the congregation in my Black Baptist church {women, children} wearing corsages pinned to their dresses or shirts for Mother's Day. The white carnation corsages were for those whose mother had passed on. The red or pink corsages were for those whose mother is still living. Men wore smaller carnations pinned to their suit lapel.

This custom is still being held at my church {in New Jersey}.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:39 AM

An African American woman told me of a practice she recalled from her childhood that little girls in her church were given flowers to put behind their ears-- my memory is fuzzy buit it may have been at confirmation time-- and that some girls were given white flowers, and some red. The color indicated those girls whose mothers were not living. The little girls were not told in advance what the colors meant; they were codes for the adults to know which girls needed a little extra prayer, and mothering, I think. This was her personal experience as an orphan, shared as an emotional memory, so I did not ask about the cultural underpinnings.


At a workshop on the spirituals I gave last summer, an elderly attendee (an African American and a leader in our denomination) wanted me to know and let others know that the spontaneous, non-arranged musical style of singing them continues "to this day" in what he referred to as "The Black Church." You can hear that, of course, in venues online as I have posted about in other threads for many years. As I have heard them sung in that manner, it has seemed to be more true of the smaller (rural) churches than the larger churches that draw from the larger urban populations. I look forward to discussing that with him further when I next see him.

I have also been told that the style preferences have been connected to socioeconomic class characteristics/cultural preferences.

I saw a comment, in another thread about "Singing Black," that I will address here because my contribution to that discussion is entirely based on the several hymnals I have that were developed for and from "The Black Church." Some of them are absolutely adamant that one must sing the songs in the Black dialect as contained in the book. Some of them are absolutely adamant that they must NOT be sung in dialect. My conclusion is that there is no "right way" but that in different eras there have been different prejudices, and different preferred manners of approaching those prejudices. These are likely to continue to be different in different times, I think.

I'm just grateful that the music itself has had the ability (the power) to transcend ALL of that. And I dearly look forward to an opportunity to attend church next week with friends with whom our parish has a number of connections, which I know they consider a Black Church. The last time I was there (for an ordination), the service was as formal as formal could be, but it still had an air of spontaneity and "let's have some fun here today" that was not hidden under the formality. :~) I also recall the number of small children relaxedly lounging on adults' laps throughout the service; in our own parish of older folks we lack the young-family population this particular neighborhood serves, and we also lack the relaxed welcome and inclusion of children in that particular way.

But I cannot say that it was a characteristic of the Black church-- it was just how that parish was, to me. And it's how our Saturday Night Service is, though it's generally not known to be part of The Black Church.... but I suppose in some ways, it is, since it's got definite strains of the multicultural relationships and experiences Hardi and I have had in our lives.


So I do look forward to being with that parish for a morning. And that leads me to my final contribution to this thread, and that is that The Black Church as I have known it has doors that are wide open to folks who appreciate diversity and who come as friends. Any chance to attend one is bound to be a good time.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:55 AM

Here are links to two YouTube videos that I just found of
Anglo-American church processionals:

Jazz Mass, Processional Hymn

"Jazz Mass, Processional Hymn, "All Are Welcome In This Place"… Redeemer's annual Jazz Mass is held on the last Sunday before Lent. It is our Mardi Gras celebration before the contemplative season of Lent begins."

-snip-

Easter Lily Processional 2006

"Since 1940s, the tradition of Lily Procession on Easter Sunday continues at First United Methodist Church of Wichita Falls, Texas. This video was taken on April 16, 2006. Music: Pilgrims' Chorus by Richard Wagner".

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

Hello, sian! And Happy New Year to you too.

I'm glad that this conversion will include comments about non-Black church processionals.

I confess [no pun intended] that I only know about the processionals in Black American Baptist churches. But choir processionals may also tradionally occur in AME, AMEZ, and COGIC churches {African Methodist Episcopal; African Methodist Episcopal Zion; and Church of God In Christ}. And they may also be done in Black churches of other demoninations.

I intend to search for online articles about Black church services, in general, as well as for online articles about Black and non-Black choir processionals. If I find such articles, I'll post their links in this thread.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM

Hi Azizi, and happy New Year!

I wonder if the processional thing is more a denominational custom, rather than an ethnic/racial one?

The processionals as you have described them are completely familiar to me, and are the 'norm' for most of the Protestant churches in my home town of Port Colborne. Well, the ones I know of anyway: United Church of Canada, Presbyterian Church, and Anglican. Having said that, I couldn't vouch for other congregations in other communities, but of those same denominations: it might be one of those customs adopted in some communities and not others, and not dictated by any central authority. Now I think of it, in my days in the church choir, we didn't always "procede" - we sometimes slipped in the 2 doors at the side of the sanctuary. I think maybe it was a) dictated in part by the wishes of the Minister and b) dependent on whether or not a Sunday was something important like Easter or Advent or similar.

In Wales, non-conformist and methodist chapels don't have processionals simply because they don't have choirs. I think the Church in Wales services start with a processional ...

Sorry - didn't mean to vere the discussion from Black Church Services. Just wanted to work out what may or may not be unique to various communities. I'm looking forward to seeing what develops here.

sian

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

Here are some links to a few other videos of African American choir processionals:

Gospel Choir Song - I Love to Praise Him

"General Assembly Apostolic National Youth Choir, Presiding Pastor - Bishop J Downie. This was recorded at our Holy Convocation May 2006
Gospel Song I Love to Praise Him - Marvin Sapp"

-snip-


Choir Entrance

"Price AME 60th Anniversary Service
Sunday, 9.16.07"

[This processional is done to live organ music and tamborines. At first glance, the choir members look like they are just walking up to the choir stand. But if you continue looking, you can see that they are actually moving to the beat. Other videos that I've viewed of this church show this particular custom of the choir standing facing right before they face forward and sing. I'm not sure why this is. This video also includes a clip of the choir and congregation singing the hymn "Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow".

This song appears to have been the first congregational song sung in a number of Black Christian church services. However, nowadays "Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow" isn't necessarily sung at the beginning of the Black {Baptist} church services, or at any other time in the church service.

-snip-

That said, as a reminder, I'm posting these links to videos with a focus on the traditions of Black church processionals, and other church customs, and not as examples of particular songs.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:57 AM

For comparison purposes, I went looking for online videos of church processionals of Anglo, and majority Anglo choirs. However, I've not yet found any.

However, here's an example of a processional done by a gospel choir from Switzerland:

bless the lord - choir entrance

Note that the choir doesn't move to the beat of the music as Black choirs do in our processionals.

Fwiw, I like the sound and the presentation of this choir.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM

Sorry, here's the hyperlink for that first video of an African processional that is mentioned in my previous post:

The Choir marching into the church

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM

Here are two links to YouTube videos of contemporary Christian church processionals in Africa:

The Choir marching into the church

"The choir in Namibe always marches into the church in the morning before they take their places in their benches up front every Sunday. I am the white chick...lol"

-snip-

This country is probably Namibia.

The Choir Entrance

"Every sunday, the youth choir marches in. I found it quite amusing. The choir director is in white robes. Enjoy the marching...lol "

-snip-

These videos were posted by different individuals. The first poster identified the country where the video was filmed. The second video contributor did not identify the country. Unfortunately, there is no mention in the comments of which country this is or when it was filmed.

The YouTube page for that video contributor identifies her as being from Canada. Imo, her comments seem to identify her as a rather culturally insensitive tourist.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:36 AM

On two occassions within the last two years at my church in New Jersey, I had the pleasure of seeing a choir processional that was led by an older man. I believe this man is a church usher, but I'm not sure about that.

This man led the paired choir members down the center aisle. he didn't march, but strutted like the lead drum major in a parade, but without any baton or anything else in his hands. While the choir members sang behind him, this man was silent. When the choir members moved up behind the pastor to stand in front of their seats, this processional leader remained standing in front of the offering table that was placed directly below the pastor's podium. The processional leader stood in place, but still moved to the rhythm of the song, beaming his pride and his joy.

I should mention that this man was not tall, or well built or otherwise physically impressive looking. Yet in those moments, he definitely looked impressive.

The last time I visited my home church, when that same processional leader passed where I was standing, he caught me smiling at him.,and nodded his head at me as if to say "Yes, isn't this great". And then he kept on struttin down the aisle.

I think this man knew that he was carrying on a very old tradition, one that could probably be traced all the way back to African religious and secular processionals. Long may they continue!

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:02 AM

Continuation of comments about Black Church Processionals:

Sometimes the church processionals is done in single file, but often the choir or church group marches into the worship area in pairs. The choir usually marches to their seats which are typically behind the pastor/s who sit on a podium. When a church group marches into the worship service, they usually are seated in front row seats behind the deacons and/or the deaconess.*

If there are two entrances to the choir seats when they near that podium, as they continue marching and singing, one choir member moves to the left up to the choir stand while the other member of that pair moves to the right up to the choir stand.

First Baptist Church Men & Women's Day March In

[This processional appears to be done by the women's group during the church's men and women's day service]

-snip-

At least at my home church, at the end of the church service, the pastor/s, followed by the deacons, who are followed by the deaconess, who are followed by the choir/s, walk in pairs down the center aisle in time to a congregational song.

In the church I attended as a child/teen in Atlantic City, New Jersey and which I still attend when I go home to visit my family, there is a fixed order to the exit from the church service:

The pastor is joined by his wife, who is seated in the third row of the church behind the deacons. Then come the other pastor/s in pairs or paired by the head deacon. Then come the other deacons in pairs. The deacons are followed by pairs of deaconness, who are followed by pairs of choir members. Then starting from the front, the congregation leaves the church room though not only by way of the center aisle.

In "my" church, the deaconess are usually married to a deacon. Deaconness sit in the front rows on the right hand side, and the deacons sit in the front rows, on the left hand side of the church. The two head deacons sit on the side of the church in the front. Only the church pastors and any invited guests pastors sit on the podium.]

In my opinion, the exit from the church service doesn't have the same "pagentry" that the processional does {at least at my home church-with home church meaning the church I grew up in. I'm not a church goer where I live so I can't give first hand information about the church services here.

However, my daughter is a member of a very large Black Baptist church in Pittsburgh, PA. She told me that the choirs are seated behind the pastor at the beginning of the church services. They don't do processionals or end of church service exit marches.

Subject: RE: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:54 AM

One feature of traditional African American churches that appears to have received very little attention in online discussions, is the practice of choir {and other group} processionals.

The processional occurs at the beginning of a church service. The choir {or a particular church group honored at that particular service} walks or marches down the center aisle of the church. This marks the formal beginning of the church service.

Immediately prior to the beginning of the church processional, the congregation stands, and faces forward. The congregation can sing along with the choir. However, they cannot join the processional.

Here is "A traditional baptist church standard: the choir procession. This is the Second Free Mission Baptist Church Mass Choir in 1994 in New Orleans, LA."

Sunday Morning Baptist Church Choir Processional


-snip-

Usually the choir sings as they "march" into the worship area. However, a processional can be done to live, instrumental music only.

Here's an example of a single file processional to organ music with no singing until the entire choir gets to the choir stand. The processional is done to "The Battle Hymn of The Republic"

New Hope Baptist Church Choir March In

Subject: Black Church Services
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM

The purpose of this discussion is to share commentary about Black* church services. The purpose of this thread is also to share links to online videos of Black church services.

This thread grew out of this Mudcat thread:

Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop

I consider that discussion thread, and other Mudcat threads about Spirituals and Gospel music to be companion threads to this one.

I'm starting a new discussion instead of adding these types of comments on that "Black/White Gospel Workshop" thread or other archived Mudcat threads because I want to focus on the presentation of information and links to videos about the characteristics of Black church services, and not strictly on a presentation of information or a comparison of music forms found in those churches. In doing so, it's my hope that this discussion will be easier to find for Mudcatters and for other interested individuals who may be trying to find such information or commentary online.

I hope that this thread becomes more than just me posting comments about and links to videos on this topic. I hope that other Mudcat members and guests will also post information & commentary about Black church services, including their memories of Black church services. I also hope that other people besides me will post links to online videos of Black church services.

Thank you, in advance, for reading this thread. And thanks for your participation in this discussion.


*For the purpose of this thread, "Black" means a person of any degree of Black African descent. That said, most of my comments and most of my examples will be from African American religious experiences, as that is my racial group, and therefore it is the racial group that I know the best.