 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Pope OKs condom use...
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Art Thieme Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:22 PM ...to keep bananas fresh, warm, moist, and cuming to ripe fruition. Art |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: katlaughing Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:24 PM Oh! You are in fine fettle this morning! It's another Thiemed Condom Thread!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM Do you think it was because of this Delanys Donkey |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: gnu Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM Well, if you really get down to the basics, he's "right". Unfortunately, it's not a perfect world or a prefect world, so, even though the basics are "best", it's not a practical solution. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Peter T. Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:58 PM Well, if you really get down to the basics, he's an old murdering fool. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Art Thieme Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:17 PM Ifr you think that, I hate you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: MarkS Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM I heard he said OK to condom use in the Muslim countries, as long as the only size used is extra large. Seems there is just no end to those pricks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: SINSULL Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:27 PM My posts keep disappearing. Anyway - someone better send a truckload or two of condoms to Washington, DC. AIDS is out of control there. Wonder how many politicians are infected? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:32 PM There are a few donkeys as well |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: gnu Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:32 PM Peter T... ".... he's an old murdering fool." Ahhhh.... I think I'll leave this thread now. That doesn't sound like good natured humour and banter to me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:41 PM Man sees a sign in a chemist's window "Contaceptive fitting service" he goes inside and sees a young lady behind the counter. "Do you fit the contraceptives?" "Yes" "Well, wash you hands, I want some boiled sweets" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Man goes into a chemist and asks for some Pyrex. "Don't you mean 'Durex'?" "No, I've got a hot dish outside" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I'll get me rubber overcoat! Cheers Nigel |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Gurney Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:48 PM I thought I'd have to stop singing 'Brigit and the Pill' for a moment there! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Bill D Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:58 PM I 'think' the whole point of this thread, though a bit obtuse, is that the Pope just this "YAOUNDE, Cameroon -- Pope Benedict XVI said condoms are not the answer to the AIDS epidemic in Africa and can make the problem worse, setting off criticism Tuesday as he began a weeklong trip to the continent where some 22 million people are living with HIV.>claimed that condoms are not useful to prevent AIDS" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 18 Mar 09 - 03:59 PM Wonder if anyone actually read past the headline. I'm not religious, but I understood what the Pope was saying....its like our lifestyle, economically unsustainable....promiscuous sex has also become unsustainable and according to Pope Benedict, artificial methods of birth control make promiscuity more likely to occur. Probably most here will say that asking people to stick to one sexual partner is unrealistic, just as they say anyone proposing an alternative to capitalism is not living in the real world. They will find that both of these propositions will have to be addressed sooner rather than later. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:06 PM Its the quickest way to reduce the population of the world Akenaton. Then the few can live on the reducing resources of the world. Maybe this is the way to do it, instead of having wars. I'll get me Modnoc |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:18 PM And I thought I was cynical Villan! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:23 PM Time for the old dinosaur to pass on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:30 PM :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Peter T. Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM I think this piece from the Times has it pretty well right. Pope John Paul II and now this guy are responsible for the deaths of countless people in Africa due to their advice, influence, and indescribable inability to deal with human nature. They should be brought up before the International Criminal Court. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5927923.ece yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: SINSULL Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:44 PM I understand what the pope was suggesting. I also understand that in third world countries his message may be a death sentence. Abstinence may prevent AIDS (transfusions and dentists are still a problem) but abstinence is not going to happen. Condoms work best to avoid spreading the disease. Hence "murdering old fool" comments. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Amos Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:49 PM "After insulting Muslims by declaring in 2006 that Muhammad had brought "things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached," after reiterating (through the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) in 2008 that the subject of the ordination of women is not even open for discussion and declaring that anyone involved with the ordination of women will be automatically excommunicated, after lifting in January of this year the excommunication of Holocaust-denier Richard Williamson, now Benedict XVI opens a visit to Africa by telling the people of a continent decimated by AIDS that the distribution of condoms "increases the problem" of the spread of AIDS. I am a Catholic and the idea that such a man is God's spokesperson on earth is absurd to me. There are, of course, no provisions in the hierarchical institution set up, not by Jesus but by men who hijacked his name and in many cases perverted his teachings, for impeaching a pope and removing him from office. But there ought to be. As I detail in my latest book, "Grand Theft Jesus: The Hijacking of Religion in America" (Crown), the cardinal sin of the Catholic Church -- a literally deadly sin, if ever there was one -- is its opposition to birth control. Far from being, as the Church contends, part of its moral doctrine, this policy is, plainly, the immoral doctrine of the Church. The use of condoms is a pro-life position." Robert S. McElvaine Professor of Arts & Letters, Millsaps College, in an essay in the Washington POst "Faith" sectionHe goes on to say: "Misogyny may not be "the Church's one foundation," but it is a major part of the base on which it was constructed. It should be obvious that the sin in an over-populated world is not attempting to control birth, but attempting to control birth control. And now for the pope to go so far as to indicate that condom use worsens the spread of AIDS -- there's an outrage that tops Madoff and AIG! Let's start a movement within the Catholic Church to impeach Pope Benedict XVI and remove him from office. While we're at it, let's replace him with a woman. He reversed the excommunication of a Holocaust denier. Will he excommunicate me for pointing out that he is a misogyny denier? If this be heresy, make the most of it." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:56 PM I am not religious and the idea that any of these people as God's spokesperson on earth is absurd to me. Between them all they cause more fighting and bloodshed in the name of God and us people that don't like any of them, have to put up with the consequences. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:00 PM I've been doing a bit of ferriting and it appears that in common with the US and other "developed" countries, AIDS in Africa was fist diagnosed among very promiscuous homosexual groups, so homosexuality and the promiscuity which statistics tell us goes along with it, appears to be the "trigger". The disease soon spreads to heterosexuals, through bi-sexual activity and intravenous drug abuse. In a very short time deaths from AIDS amongst hetrosexuals outnumber deaths among homosexuals, due to the difference in population percentages. I see what you're saying Sinsull, but will human life be brought to an end by the disease or the remedy? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:02 PM Could this be the follow up to Noah and the Ark? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:03 PM I got just one question. Who the flip CARES what the Pope thinks? - Shane |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:04 PM Well I don't for one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Jayto Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:44 PM On who? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: olddude Date: 18 Mar 09 - 06:34 PM When the building is burning a person tries first to put out the fire. Then afterwords tries to figure out how to change their smoking behaviour as to not set the couch on fire again. I am a Catholic, I take it serious, if the pope has something to say about the sacraments he has my full attention. When he talks about health or politics he is best to simply keep his Opinion to himself for it has no bearing on faith and can be in this case detrimental to others. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:43 PM "he's an old murdering fool" (Peter T) A fool? I doubt that very much. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe_F Date: 18 Mar 09 - 09:28 PM I've heard tell of a birth-control pill that was approved by the Pope. It is held between the knees. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Bill D Date: 18 Mar 09 - 10:36 PM If the Pope thinks THAT will help, he's obviously been celibate way too long. ☺ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Amos Date: 18 Mar 09 - 11:32 PM I think Peter has his finger on a deeper pulse. The iconography and mythology of which the pope is the current crystallization have, actually, had their day, and are about as germane as the science of buggy whips in 1920. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Art Thieme Date: 18 Mar 09 - 11:32 PM Once again, making a joke, I thought, has gotten away from me and rather gone astray. If any clone out there wants to close this thread, that'd be cool here! Art |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 19 Mar 09 - 04:47 AM "The Catholic Truth, Scotland" rails against a cartoon in yeterday's Times Probably getting the cartoon out to a greater number of people than would usually have seen it. The cartoon seems about as offensive (or not, depending on viewpoint) as the Danish religious cartoons of a couple of years ago! Nigel |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Stu Date: 19 Mar 09 - 05:06 AM A member of the Hitler youth telling people what or what not to stick on their jake. And the fools going along with it. The mind boggles. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Peter T. Date: 19 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM And in the latest news on how well the abstinence-only programmes are doing: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/?last_story=/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/03/19/teen_birthrate/ yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: bubblyrat Date: 19 Mar 09 - 12:52 PM The trouble with Popes is that they are always Pontificating about something.Why don't they just stick to what they know best,like persuading poor people to give all their money to The Church,or turning a Blind Eye when people like Hitler murder millions of Jews ?? They're very good at that . |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 19 Mar 09 - 01:10 PM Well I have just had a listen to The Pope's Youtube Couldn't understand a word. The Pope Youtube |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Bill D Date: 19 Mar 09 - 02:02 PM Once again, the Pope & the Catholic Church have demonstrated that the way to deal with such issues is to "first place the dart where you want it, then draw the bull's-eye around it." They 'know' that the answer is always "abstinence and the sanctity of marriage", so any new idea must be judged by those rules, no matter who, where or how well it works. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 19 Mar 09 - 02:44 PM The implication would seem to be that if you are a good Catholic, you won't get AIDS. Problem solved. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 19 Mar 09 - 02:52 PM The implication would seem to be that if you are a good Catholic, you won't get AIDS. True, especially if you're a good Catholic priest. There just aren't that many twelve year-old boys who are HIV positive. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Rasener Date: 19 Mar 09 - 03:28 PM Sorry but that made me laugh :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 19 Mar 09 - 03:33 PM Pope The greatest travesty in the fight against AIDS is not the words of the pope but the international drug companies demanding and getting patent rights enforced restricting distribution of generic anti aids drugs. I think that his message should have been that the ceo's of those big drug companies may find a seat in Hell close to the furnace. That would have been helpful! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Peter T. Date: 19 Mar 09 - 03:56 PM Not at all. Drug companies are in the business of making money. The church is supposed to be in the business of reverencing "life". It turns out that their version of it involves killing people, which should cause a certain amount of rethinking their business model. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Wesley S Date: 19 Mar 09 - 04:01 PM And who among us has forgotten the Spanish Inquisition?? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 19 Mar 09 - 04:44 PM Peter you say "Drug companies are in the business of making money" and that is true. However, it is like telling a drowning man that you will toss him a lifejacket, if he will pay a price 100 times it's production cost, or you will let him sink. Millions in Africa have already died who might have been saved with proper treatment. Many more need immediate help. Capitalism at its finest no doubt, or racism at it's worst! A Travisty |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 12:15 AM I don't know of any drugs which would either cure or prevent the spread of AIDS. As I understand it they can only treat the symptoms and maybe prolong the inevitable. Fat lot of use that is to most African sufferers. On the other hand, condoms work quite well. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 09 - 12:37 AM Peter, I've generally thought of you as a very rational person, but I think you have a serious prejudice problem here - what do you mean by "It turns out that their version of it involves killing people," referring to the Catholic Church, I presume. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me. The Pope is right in saying that "a responsible and moral attitude toward sex would help fight the disease" far more than condoms. That may be impractical; but if a person is having promiscuous sex, why in the world would he or she worry about the morality of using condoms? And if the couple are married and one partner has AIDS and have moral qualms about using condoms, that's something the couple should discuss with a priest - most likely, there's a rational solution. As I recall, there's an exception in such a situation. On the other hand, promoting use of condoms would seem to create a false sense of security. Maybe there's a balance in there somewhere - but hey, don't expect a church to expect or even provide for promiscuity. That's for people to deal with on their own, and not with a papal blessing. As a seminary-educated Catholic, I don't particularly agree with the Catholic Church's position on birth control, so I simply ignore it - but I think a number of comments here are taking things way too far. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Barry Finn Date: 20 Mar 09 - 02:22 AM The Pope's outlook & actions concering AIDS reminds me of Reagan's failure to address the same problem. Only at the time of Reagan AIDS was not a fully blown, world wide epidemic. When those that have the power, influence & resourses to do the most, when they stand in the way & block progress & refuse to get out of the way & don't. They in part become the reason why plagues of biblical proportions come to life. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Peter T. Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:36 AM "A responsible and moral attitude" towards anything would be far better than many things. It would, for example, be a far better way to drive than having traffic lights, but it doesn't work that way. Everyone should fall in love with one person and live with them for the rest of their lives in holy matrimony. However, we live on planet Earth. The question is, are people to pay for their lives and the lives of others when they give in to their natural urges -- and in the case of Africa, a whole panoply of social griefs and customs that are killing people right now. I am against dogma that kills people, whether it is Catholic or Communist. As far as I can see, the Catholic church has adopted a production model of "life" -- quantity not quality -- of which the opposite, quality not quantity, has its own problems (cf. the Nazis); and is sticking to it rigidly, in the face of human misery generated by its own dogma. The refusal to deal intelligently with birth control is the most obvious example of this crazy model. Your admission that you ignore the church's ruling on birth control means that you agree with this fundamental point. From this, all the rest follows. Which of us is being irrational? yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:26 PM Well, Peter, I believe the statistics show that Catholics use birth control methods at about the same rate as their non-Catholic neighbors - which seems to me an indication that Catholics understand that their leaders are celibate old men who don't really know what they're talking about. So, they take what the old men have to say that's worthwhile, and take the birth control stuff with a grain of salt. So, it the pope takes a position on birth control and Catholics ignore it, why get all worried about it and accuse the pope of killing or whatever??? The Catholic Church has a lot of diversity, and Catholics don't march in lockstep with their leaders. It doesn't operate by Central Office issuing orders that everyone obeys. It's more of a culture than a rigid structure. Sure, the rules and doctrines and authority structures are there - but they are far less rigid and far less powerful than outsiders might think. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Stringsinger Date: 20 Mar 09 - 06:39 PM Themesong for the Pope, "Thank heaven for little boys". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 09 - 06:46 PM So, Frank, was that necessary? Do you have any reason to accuse the Pope of pedophilia? And what's the difference between your statement and other forms of prejudice? If blacks or gays or filipinos or whatever committed crimes at the same percentage rate as Catholic priests, what would you have to say about them as a group? -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 20 Mar 09 - 06:53 PM I agree Joe, I think our leaders, political or religious, should deal in the highest denominators....not the lowest. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: olddude Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:04 PM Joe Very well said IMO ... I could not agree stronger. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Amos Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM It takes ten minutes to teach someone to use a condom. It takes years, if not lifetimes, to teach or otherwise inspire a responsible attitude. Given the number of sexual events per capita in an at-risk population, the math demonstrates, as I have roughly sketched it out here, that the Pope is dreaming and has no idea of the realities involved. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM You know, Amos, the Pope is in the business of values - long-term, idealistic values. Somehow, it might be good to have a home for people who are concerned about sexuality and fidelity as an ideal - even if they don't always live up to it. When we're talking about "number of sexual events per capita in an at-risk population," we're not talking about people who are deeply concerned about spirituality and values and fidelity. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:29 PM I believe the statistics show that Catholics use birth control methods at about the same rate as their non-Catholic neighbors That may well be true; I do not profess to know. However in Africa that rate is obviously much lower than in many other places. Actively discouraging the use of condoms there is tantamount to mass murder on a gargantuan scale, and the Pope cannot possibly be ignorant of that fact. I accept that his religious beliefs may be more important to him than the lives of a few million Africans but that doesn't make him right. Perhaps he may be more concerned for their 'souls' than their bodies, I don't know. What I do know is, he's profoundly wrong. If there is such a thing as 'evil', he seems to me to be the embodiment of it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:42 PM Give me statistics, Smokey. In 60 years as a Catholic, I have rarely heard the topic of birth control mentioned from the pulpit. The only statistics I have see show that, as I said, Catholics use birth control methods at about the same rate as their non-Catholic neighbors - worldwide. As far as I can see, failure to use birth control is far more a cultural thing, than it is religious. My friend, the priest from Rwanda, gives me the impression it's a cultural taboo - to which he fully subscribes. He also believes that sex is something for married couples. Why do you think people are going to follow the Pope's restriction on condoms, if they don't follow what the Pope says about sexual fidelity? Do you really think people in Africa are that stupid? So, anybody want to say how horrible it is for the Pope to promote sexual fidelity? Is that a horrible thing that kills people? -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: gnu Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:46 PM "Actively discouraging"?????? That is exactly what is being done. I approach this discussion... unfortunately???... from both sides. I agree with everyone. You are all correct. Problem is, you can't meet half way, have a BBQ and some liquids, converse, eh? And sort shit out, eh? Hosers. Ya know, eh? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM Joe - I'm not sure what statistics you would like me to provide - my point is that condom use in Africa is less common than in many other places. You seem to be saying that as well. Encouragement of condom use will save many more lives than discouragement. I don't think I need to provide statistics to demonstrate that, it's common sense. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:57 PM There's nothing wrong with promoting sexual fidelity, but there's a lot wrong with promoting the lie that it is going to fix Africa's AIDS problem more effectively than condoms. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:57 PM Smokey, I'm saying that people in Africa don't use condoms because they don't want to use condoms, for cultural and personal reasons - not because some religious leader tells them not to use them. It's very nice for paternalistic and all-knowing Europeans and Americans to tell them it's healthy to use condoms, but why in the world should they listen to paternalistic and all-knowing Americans and Europeans who colonized and raped and impoverished them for centuries? -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:04 PM Good point Joe, but irrelevant to the one I was making. I think it's the moral responsibilty of someone with as much influence as the Pope to encourage what is obviously the most humane solution. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: gnu Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:26 PM Smokey... come on. The Big P is not PROMOTING the idea... he is telling people it is the only proven way to beat STDs. I am all for rubbers on a wet day. But, this is what I mean by half way..... if you cannot accept that truth, how can you say that rubbers are better? Before I alienate anyone else, read my lips. I am not disagreeing with you... I am disagreeing with your logic and your conclusions, which, to me are exclusive of the fact that humans are capable of reason and logic. Anyone that wants to simulate mating at random should use a condom. At least, those with ANY intelligence. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:34 PM If Africa was starting from scratch with no AIDS problem, then 100% sexual fidelity would in all probability prevent it. Unfortunately they already have the problem, and at this stage condoms are without doubt the most effective option. I've nothing whatsoever against the promotion of fidelity itself, my problem is with him actively discouraging condom use. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:34 PM I suppose that's a problem with churches, Smokey. They can present the ideal, knowing that the ideal is well-nigh impossible (even for their own clergy). They're not very good at telling people what to do when they have to compromise ideals - that's where people have to figure things out for themselves, I guess. So, what's the Pope supposed to say: Don't have promiscuious sex - but, by the way, here's how to use a condom when you do have promiscuous sex. Why not depend on non-religious groups to promote condoms, and not force the churches to compromise their ideals? But as far as "actively discouraging condom use," how "active" is the Catholic campaign against condoms? It sure isn't very active here in the United States. Should the Catholic Church offer alternatives to priests who just can't be celibate? (Well, I think they ought to be able to get married, but if celibacy is the rule, I think they ought to be celibate with no alternatives) -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:43 PM I'd be happy if the Pope, particularly when in Africa, refrained from discouraging the use of condoms. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,CLETUS HARDDINGER Date: 20 Mar 09 - 09:20 PM I don't see whats wrong with them priest being happy and celebrating? I mean that's a pretty good thing. Course if somebody is forcin you to celebrate and all, well, that there is different cause if youre feelin sad then maybe you shouldnt hav to celibrate. CLETUS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 09:46 PM how "active" is the Catholic campaign against condoms? I imagine the great majority of the 'civilized' world is aware of the Vatican's stance on birth control. Wasn't it the great philosopher Monty Python who coined the phrase "The world's fastest growing religion"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: olddude Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:20 PM The vast majority of the world also has a strong stance against smoking but it doesn't stop people from doing so .... Like Joe said, there is no active campaign that I ever heard of with any catholic going out with signs or protesting birth control .. The pope stance on birth control was one he gave to catholics ... most of which disregard it |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:23 PM Not in Africa, it seems. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:23 PM Oh, I thought he okay ed them to keep young Catholic boys from getting pregnant, by priests. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:26 PM Like Joe said, there is no active campaign that I ever heard of with any catholic going out with signs or protesting birth control .. My point is that they do not need to do that in most places because everyone is already well aware of their policy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: olddude Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:40 PM Correct, and if one is not catholic why would they care. And if one is catholic they will do what every catholic I know does and say what does this have to do with the sacraments nothing and ignore it. Now should he be making off the cuff comments ... no .. but if he is ask should he lie about the way he feels .. no ... so he is the bad guy for stating his beliefs ... and he is the one that is causing the aids crisis ... no he isn't ... no more than any of the off the wall comments I hear from other demonimations or religions or atheists for that matter. people somehow think the guy holds all this power .. fact is .. he doesn't hold any power except when it comes to the catholic belief in the sacraments. And those deal with faith not worldly issues. As I said before, should he say things like that, no it is not good for anyone but if he chooses to answer a question he is asked he will not lie and will say how he feels ... and to me that is what he should do .. Joe is right |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:45 PM I was not aware that he was answering a question, but if that was the case he should certainly given a more diplomatic answer. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: olddude Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:54 PM Smokey I agree, there are better ways of dealing with it. Aids is one of the great crisis in this world. Even a hint of anything that could possibly cause even 1 more infection is wrong thinking ... it would be nice if the whole world followed a righteous path but it doesn't and we have to deal with aids and let the medical professional do their job. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:59 PM I agree. (There follows a metaphorical shaking of hands) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: olddude Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:03 PM The best thing he could have done when he was asked about aids and the passing out of condoms was just say I let the medical professionals handle the medical issues I deal with issues of God then.. no problems ... but he choose to answer and he answers truthfully how he feels .. not good for him or anyone else I think. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:10 PM Exactly. He did it more than once as well, if I remember correctly. I'd have thought a man in his position would have more of a clue than that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: olddude Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:21 PM Well it certainly doesn't help the crisis in Africa for sure. No matter what a persons believe system is or is not. The belief cannot be in any person - people can and do fail. It can only be in God since he doesn't fail ... or if your system is not God then in Nature or Earth or something much greater than man as you choose. For me it is in Christ, a man will always fail God won't for me |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Amos Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:24 PM Joe: I respect that the Pope is in the business of long-term, ideal values. That being the case, he should be less inclined to impose short-term moral strictures on human behavior. People will steer themselves straight, given the right viewpoint and understanding they can take as their own; but if they are driven by ad hoc orders and arbitrary strictures, with out understanding, they will resign themselves, sneak out the back, or blow up. It's the nature of the beast, IMHO. Telling people not to use a prophylactic because they should be better than all that just doesn't strike me as a workable formulation. No offense meant. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:33 PM I'm not religious, and I would never judge anyone purely on the basis of their beliefs. I'm criticising the Pope more on political grounds as the head of a large corporation with what I see as a very significant influence. Idealism is a far greater danger than religion alone. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: olddude Date: 21 Mar 09 - 12:06 AM Smokey and I truly respect your position and where you were coming from I know there was no intent to slam anyone's belief just working from the aids point of view and I don't disagree at all |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 21 Mar 09 - 12:14 AM Much appreciated OldDude, though it was more a case of thinking outloud (gobflappery) than directed at you personally. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM Most people now, have been conditioned into accepting not "homophobia", but something much worse.....fear of the truth and of any responsibility for what happens to them. It seems to me that the promotion and normalisation of destructive lifestyles like homosexuality and widespread promiscuity is totally wrong and to promote ways of lessening the effects of these destructive lifestyles rather than confronting the issues head on is short term and cowardly. Like Joe, I often agree with Peter's views, but this time I think he has got it wrong, perhaps allowing religious prejudice to colour his judgement. If we want to change what is acceptable in human behaviour we must not buy our heads when unpleasant truths begin to appear. As a religious and moral leader the Pope is correct to condemn the practices which are causing the deaths in the first place. Supporting condom use, without addressing the faults in our society which seem to have led to the explosion of the disease, not only weakens the moral position, but salves the consciences of those liberals who promote the "anything goes, everyone must have their "rights" at any cost mentality". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Peter T. Date: 21 Mar 09 - 11:08 AM As opposed to your unclouded judgement in reference to homosexuality as a destructive lifestyle, I suppose. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Stu Date: 21 Mar 09 - 01:40 PM "perhaps allowing religious prejudice to colour his judgement" Any prejudices colouring your judgement? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 21 Mar 09 - 02:17 PM Supporting condom use, without addressing the faults in our society which seem to have led to the explosion of the disease, not only weakens the moral position, but salves the consciences of those liberals who promote the "anything goes, everyone must have their "rights" at any cost mentality He addressed the 'faults' and condemned condom use though. He'd have a lot more respect from me if he addressed those same faults in his own heirarchy of staff (for want of the correct expression) before trying to impose his ridiculous idealistic values on people who would be better off without them. Some people will die horribly as a direct result of his speeches in Africa. I don't know how many, but any number is unacceptable. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 21 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM Many millions will die horribly in Africa because of our exploitative colonisation and its aftermath, our desire to organise humanity for personal and National gain makes us all serial killers. I have no religion, but more and more I see the ground rules religion lays down on how we should conduct our lives, have in general terms proved to be reliable. Especially in a society like ours, where the lunatics appear to have taken over the asylum. BTW Peter, my views on homosexuality as a destructive lifestyle are easily proved.....the figures are all there in black and white,if you care to look. Homosexuality will of course always be with us and should be viewed with compassion, but to promote it as a normal healthy lifestyle is sheer madness. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Georgiansilver Date: 21 Mar 09 - 03:40 PM I remember in the 1960's the Pope at that time wrote a book called "The Pillsgrim Progress" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 21 Mar 09 - 03:56 PM Many millions will die horribly in Africa because of our exploitative colonisation and its aftermath Quite right, but that doesn't excuse what the Pope did. And wasn't our exploitative colonisation done in the name of Christianity? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Peter T. Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:09 PM Heterosexuality is the most destructive lifestyle in history. The figures are all there in living colour. It has sown a swath of misery and death across this poor planet. How many people's lives have been ruined by its pernicious urges, its insidiousness, its carelessness, its terrible burdens? yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,CLETUS HARDDINGER Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM It aint jus this pope feller what has a problem with rubbers. Right here where I live The Church of Evangelical Hollering and Tongue-Talking Mohunkers don't like 'em much either. A few years back Catspaw put on The Super Mind Altering and Semi-Patriotic Firewoks Display and Flaming Asshole Gala and me an Paw an the Reg Boys messed up and had an accident which caused the condom factory across from their church to explode and cover their place of worship in latex. I dunno what the pope guy has against them rubbers but I DO KNOW what the Mohunkers hate about 'em. CLETUS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM Good point Smokey, but I think colonisation was all about personal greed and national power.....Christianity was certainly used as a convenient tool, to keep what was really happening from the "national perception".......something like handing out condoms really. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM It could be argued that heterosexuality is the cause of homosexuality anyway :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:14 PM Thats not a debating point Peter.....Thats a philosophy! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:15 PM I think colonisation was all about personal greed and national power Yes it was, but so is Christianity, historically speaking. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:17 PM Not true Christianity Smokey...what we turned it into. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM When? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:25 PM I am highly skeptical of your bald statements about the figures being all there, Ake. You may be confusing your vectors and causes again. Obsessive sexuality of any kind is destructive, but so is obsessive preoccupation with other aspects of life--ego, food, religion, or objects are ready examples. Obsession is not healthy. But I doubt homosexuality of and by iotself is particularly pernicios--no more so, surely than trans fats or mandate currency. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:39 PM Lard has a wide variety of uses. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM You're takin' the piss! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:14 PM I think that was the Republicans, ake... ;>) A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:56 PM Who said Americans can't do irony?....:0) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:17 PM I forget which Pope it was now.. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Cluin Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:56 PM Joe, do think Cardinal Ratzinger was a wise choice for Pope at this point in history? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:54 PM Hi, Cluin- Well, I have to say I have been pleasantly surprised by Ratzinger/Benedict. He has not shown the "Rottweiler" personality that was his reputation in his previous job. I have talked with a couple people who were close to him who said that was an unfair description. They said he was a wise, gentle, cultured man with a wonderful sense of humor - and an excellent pianist, by the way. Almost all his official speeches and writings are available at the Vatican Website, vatican.va. I find that when I read him in context, he usually makes a lot of sense. When the press boils him down to a few sound bites, he comes out sounding completely different. I suppose he's more conservative than I would like him to be, but he seems to be far more rational than his predecessor. The Catholic Church has taken a swing to the right as a reaction against the Second Vatican Council, and lay people have been at the forefront of that rightward swing. John Paul II was very popular among Catholic lay people, but many priests and nuns of my generation felt JPII ignored them. Benedict is far more balanced, and I think he's the best successor to JPII we could hope for. Because of his attractive personality, John Paul II could say outrageous things and get away with it. What Benedict says (if you listen to his complete statements) makes a lot more sense - but he comes off looking worse because he's a scholarly professor and not a media star like JPII was. Benedict is not my ideal pope, but I feel much better about him than I did about John Paul II. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM Just a point of interest, but it occurs to me that statistically, so we are told, the most effective circumstance in which to use a condom to prevent the spread of AIDS has absolutely nothing to do with procreation or birth control. Whilst I understand, though don't condone, the Vatican stance on birth control itself, they seem to be missing the point with regard to non-contraceptive condom use. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 25 Mar 09 - 02:46 AM Another good point Smokey. I think what the Pope was saying was that condom use on its own will not solve the health issues being thrown up by promiscuity and destructive unhealthy lifestyles. He also said that by making condom use the "panacea", we run the risk of appearing to condone these dangerous practices, making them seem manageable and in so doing, exacerbating the situation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Mar 09 - 03:13 AM Well, Smokey, what IS "the most effective circumstance in which to use a condom to prevent the spread of AIDS [which] has absolutely nothing to do with procreation or birth control"? My guess is that you're talking about high-risk sex or homosexual sex, and the pope would disapprove of those "circumstances" more strongly than he would disapprove of the use of condoms. And gain, I ask why would any rational person who engages in "illicit" sex against the Pope's wishes, care what the Pope has to say about condoms? -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:03 PM why would any rational person who engages in "illicit" sex against the Pope's wishes, care what the Pope has to say about condoms? I take your point Joe, but they might well be interested in saving their own lives. This is very much a medical issue, not a religious one. Also, not everyone is 'rational', albeit a rather subjective term. My guess is that you're talking about high-risk sex or homosexual sex, and the pope would disapprove of those "circumstances" more strongly than he would disapprove of the use of condoms. I was talking specifically about anal sex, not 'homosexual sex' - I apologise for not being more clear. Often practised as a form of birth control, particularly in places where 'medical' contraception is less available or discouraged for whatever reason. Not all homosexuals indulge in the practice of anal sex, and I doubt very much if there is any more homosexuality in Africa than anywhere else. Likewise promiscuity. Akenaton - I see what you are saying, but your interpretation of what the Pope actually meant is not necessarily the same as everyone else's. I wouldn't expect him to condone dangerous practices, though in fact that is precisely what he has done, whether unwittingly or otherwise. People will undoubtedly die because of what he said. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Peter T. Date: 27 Mar 09 - 11:57 AM LONDON, March 27 (Reuters) - A prestigious medical journal on Friday accused Pope Benedict of distorting scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine by saying that condoms increase the spread of AIDS. The Lancet in an editorial called on the Pope to retract the comments made last week, saying anything less would be an immense disservice to the public and health advocates fighting to contain the disease. "When any influential person, be it a religious or political leader, makes a false scientific statement that could be devastating to the health of millions of people, they should retract or correct the public record," the editorial said. "By saying that condoms exacerbate the problem of HIV/AIDS, the Pope has publicly distorted scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine on the issue." During his first visit to Africa, the Pope told reporters that AIDS is a problem that "cannot be overcome by the distribution of condoms; on the contrary, they increase it." The comment ignited a firestorm of criticism from health officials, activists and politicians who criticised that view as unrealistic, unscientific and dangerous. The Church teaches that fidelity within heterosexual marriage and abstinence are the best ways to stop AIDS. The Vatican also says condoms can lead to risky behaviour but many contest that view. Health experts say there is no scientific evidence showing that condom use spurs people to take more sexual risks and in fact studies show that condom use reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection. The AIDS virus infects an estimated 33 million people globally, mostly in sub-Saharan Africa, and has killed 25 million. There is no cure. (Reporting by Michael Kahn) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 27 Mar 09 - 06:32 PM So who should we believe? A leading scientific journal or a psychopathic religious zealot? I use the word 'psychopathic' in its nicest sense: apparently oblivious to the consequences of his actions, although I'm by no means certain I believe that. As was pointed out earlier, John Paul II came out with similarly dangerous drivel and was proved horribly wrong. Benedict has repeated the mistake from which he had ample opportunity to learn. Much as I detest the idea of censorship, such people should not be given a public platform from which to air their irrational prejudices and ideals. In a civilised world, religions should never be allowed to dabble in either medical or political matters. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Bonzo3legs Date: 27 Mar 09 - 06:39 PM Condoms???? They were johnnies when I was a boy and always will be. And the pope has always been a laughing stock. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 27 Mar 09 - 09:52 PM What the Pope actually said.............. "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems" The quote supplied by Peter and supported by Smokey..... "A prestigious medical journal on Friday accused Pope Benedict of distorting scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine by saying that condoms increase the spread of AIDS." Even the dimmest anti-religious bigot should be able to understand that the "problems" referred to by Pope Benedict, are the contradictions between facilitating promiscuity and promoting the idea that we should limit the number of sexual partners we have. The Popes words have obviously been twisted to give the ludicrous impression that he believes "Condoms spread AIDS". Seems to me that most on this thread are out to take a kick at "religion" rather than try to understand the complexity of the issue. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 27 Mar 09 - 10:26 PM "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems" Sounds like he's claiming that the distribution of condoms aggravates the problems to me.. Any other possible interpretations, anyone? The quote supplied by Peter and supported by Smokey..... "A prestigious medical journal on Friday accused Pope Benedict of distorting scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine by saying that condoms increase the spread of AIDS." That is the news report's description of the quote, not the actual quote. Even the dimmest anti-religious bigot should be able to understand that the "problems" referred to by Pope Benedict, are the contradictions between facilitating promiscuity and promoting the idea that we should limit the number of sexual partners we have. Dim though I may be, I can see that while that may be your interpretation, it may not be everyone else's. You have also neglected to quote the exact question he was replying to, making any interpretation rather groundless. Seems to me that most on this thread are out to take a kick at "religion" rather than try to understand the complexity of the issue. It doesn't really matter that it was the Pope that did this - it would have been wrong whoever had said it. This is not a religious issue, it is a medical one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 28 Mar 09 - 03:51 AM Sorry if I seemed to be saying that you were "dim" Smokey, I think you are quite the opposite of "dim". It does seem unlikely that a well educated intelligent person like Pope Benedict could actually believe that condoms physically spread the AIDS virus....In saying that, I suppose the belief in God as a supreme being is also hard to understand, but is a belief subscribed to by many on this forum. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Mar 09 - 02:26 PM Well, this is the Benedict XVI quote that has been posted all over the Internet: "It (AIDS) cannot be overcome by the distribution of condoms. On the contrary, they increase the problem." I can only find one source for the quote: Reuters. To my mind, Reuters seems to be the intellectual equivalent of FoxNews - or maybe it's just the Reuters people who follow the Pope. I've noticed that Reuters tends to quote the Pope out of context and translate him sloppily, and that he makes a lot more sense when you read his entire paragraph instead of the "sound bite" Reuters extracted. In the past, the Pope has said that condoms may increase the problem by giving a false sense of security. This certainly won't satisfy you die-hard condom believers who think that condoms are the infallible cure for AIDS, but I think my understanding of the Pope's position does make some sense. And, as Smokey says, it's a medical issue, not a religious one. That being the case, one would think people should listen to medical authorities when considering the medical aspects of the issue. For those who have moral concerns about the use of condoms, then it would seem appropriate for them to consult religious authorities for that aspect of the decision. But it seems to me that any damn fool could figure out that as a moral issue, the use of condoms is secondary to the issue of having sex with multiple partners. And if the people aren't following the Pope on the primary issue, why in the world would they fall in line on the secondary issue? Also, I wonder if Smokey really means this:
Sure sounds like censorship to me. I suppose it was wrong for John Paul II to speak out against the American wars in Iraq? Is it wrong for religious leaders to discuss the moral implications of assisted suicide or capital punishment? If Smokey, is right, then I guess we'd best leave the medical decisions to Doctor Kevorkian (or Doctor Mengele?), and the decisions on war and capital punishment to George W. Bush. I'm sorry, but I think it's foolish to compartmentalize our decision-making and leave everything to the "authorities." Every decision has multiple aspects and implications, and almost every decision has a moral aspect. Surely, a religious leader should have a right to express an opinion on the moral aspects of something - even if people happen to disagree with him. I think that as a thinking person, I have a right to express my opinion on almost any matter, including moral decisions. But if we follow Smokey's logic, then doesn't it follow that only religious leaders should speak on the moral aspects of an issue? I certainly don't think that should be the case. Or is it OK for Smokey to express an opinion on a medical issue, but not the Pope? So, what I hear, is a huge number of people all over the world who are morally outraged that the Pope would dare express his opinion that condoms won't overcome AIDS. Isn't it a shame, that we've come to the point that people are outraged when somebody says what he thinks? Now, admittedly he has expressed an official position, but it's not like a President ordering troops to war. Catholics can ignore the Pope - and on issues involving birth control, they usually do. For the record, my personal opinion is that the use of condoms may help control the spread of AIDS, and they should be readily available and their use should be encouraged - not that I've used them since I got a vasectomy in 1979. But, hey, I don't question the Pope's right to say otherwise - and I do find some value in his saying that we shouldn't think of condoms as the absolute cure for AIDS - we have to keep working to find something that will eradicate the disease. We can't think we can get off cheap on this one and end the disease by shipping condoms to Africa. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:24 PM t does seem unlikely that a well educated intelligent person like Pope Benedict could actually believe that condoms physically spread the AIDS virus (Akenaton) I agree, but I don't think anyone's actually accused him of that. He does seem to think that condoms can somehow make people promiscuous though, a belief that does not appear to have any foundation. Even if it did, they would be wearing condoms which would prevent the spread of STDs. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:41 PM Joe - I was agreeing with 'The Lancet', not Reuters - I've already made that clear. As for the privilege of free speech, I simply think it should be treated with more of a sense of responsibility than that demonstrated by the Pope. Please try not to cloud the issue in hand with red herrings. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Mar 09 - 09:16 PM Catholic schools here in Calgary will not contribute to fund raising to combat AIDS. A fund raiser for AIDS relief in Africa has been cancelled. Last year, Catholic teachers raised $45000 by 'pass-the-hat' methods. The bishop (Henry) here spoke out against the Steven Lewis Foundation which contributes several hundred thousand dollars annually to AIDS work in Africa. He spoke out for chastity, fidelity and abstinance as the best means to combat the disease. Another leftover from the dark ages. Calgary Herald, March 27, 2009. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 28 Mar 09 - 09:49 PM I've nothing against chastity, fidelity and abstinance, but unlike rubber they aren't impervious to bodily fluids when stretched. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Amos Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:53 AM Facebook users wage condom campaign against Pope |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: akenaton Date: 29 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM Why don't you try to address some of the points made by Joe Amos, rather than posting the same skewed media reports over again? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:05 PM What points would those be? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 29 Mar 09 - 07:33 PM The Vatican disapproves of the use of condoms for contraceptive purposes, that much is common knowledge and their motivation is irrelevant here. But where is the logic in disapproving of their use to save lives? To claim that condom usage increases promiscuity is not only highly likely to be untrue, it is irrelevant since the condoms would prevent the spread of the disease anyway. I can see how the Pope would have a dilemma over this, but he really would have been wiser to have kept his mouth shut, knowing full well that he would be quoted, and perhaps as some claim misquoted globally. They say his answers were prepared in advance - a dyslexic parrot could have shown more compassion and understanding of the situation than that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 29 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM I wonder.. Does the Catholic Church think it is better to die a grotesque death than it is to be promiscuous? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:46 AM Smokey says:
I can't discuss this any more, Smokey. The discussion is all propaganda. I get distressed with "pro-life" Catholics and others who paste the label of "abortionist" on anyone who opposes anti-abortion legislation. And I get distressed by the other side, when they escalate their side of the argument to the same, ludicrious level. If you keep shouting mindless slogans and can't carry on a rational discussion, what's the use of my participation? I don't know anything about the Lancet but I do know that Reuters frequently misquotes the Pope and puts "spin" on his words - and as far as I can see, the original source of the Pope's alleged statement was Reuters. The one-line answer attributed to the Pope is uncharacteristic of him. He answers questions in well-reasoned paragraphs (or pages), never in one-liners. In the past, he has not denied that condoms can reduce the spread of AIDS - he has said that abstinence works better and that the promotion of condoms may give a false sense of security that may actually serve to increase the incidence of AIDS. His point is that if the use of condoms gives a sense of security that increases promiscuity, then condoms may actually serve to spread the disease. I don't completely agree with that, but it's an argument that has at least some validity. And the implication that the Pope's statement is going to cause the spread of AIDS is utterly ridiculous. The disease is spread by sexual contact, not by the statements of religious leaders. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:06 AM Joe, I'm discussing medicine, morals and cold logic, not propaganda. You were the one who mentioned Dr. Mengele, supposedly based on 'Smokey's logic'; please don't accuse me of escalating anything to a ludicrous level. What I asked is not a mindless slogan, it is a genuine question based on what has been discussed. That said, I thank you for an interesting discussion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Musket Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:31 AM What astounds me is that an organisation such as a religion wishes to give opinions on all sorts of situations and set themselves up as a moral compass. But do not like to be criticised themselves. Religious leaders may be the boss for some people, but not, thankfully, others. All this "going too far" in criticising the pope. Why is it going too far? He is a man who is employed as Chief Executive of a large organisation that makes lots of money out of poor people. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. As he insists on the history of the church giving him the authority to try telling people what to do, then it is fair game to laugh at him. After all, until very recently, he and his mates tried hiding paedophiles on the payroll instead of sacking them and turning them over to the authorities. What if a company I ran had the same idea? I would be in the dock myself.. A priest recently kicked a load of people out of the church for being involved in terminating the pregnancy of a young girl. The priest said the God's law is higher than a country's law. WHy hasn't the pope clarified that? Here in The UK, nothing and nobody is above the law. History? Perhaps one day we will know the real links between the Nazis, the Vatican and South America. An upcoming trial for a camp guard shows that war criminals and those who shelter them are not to get away with it. There is a link to a catholic "truth" webpage mentioned in an earlier post here, and I went on it. Wow... these jokers are saying that the newspapers (The Times especially) should be afraid to take on the catholic church. And they actually mean what they say! How sinister is that? The ultimate hilarious bit is a bloke who claims never to have had sex telling others how to run their sex life. Or at least it would be funny if it wasn't that many people will just stop using condoms but not change their lifestyle... This guy had the opportunity early in life to stand up for his beliefs, even the chance to be a martyr, how good's that? He chose to join the Hitler Youth instead. Move on. Next story please. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:56 PM I would be most interested to see the Pope's alleged well-reasoned 'full' answer, along with the precise question he was asked which provoked it. Oddly enough no-one has either reproduced it here or provided a link. I apparently stand accused of shouting slogans and being unable to carry on a rational discussion, albeit a rather 'ad hominem' attack. If this is significantly perceived to be the case I am prepared to explain anything I have said and offer apologies where appropriate. 'The Lancet', for the benefit of anyone else who knows nothing about it, is a very well established and respected medical publication ("the world's leading general medical journal and specialty journals in Oncology, Neurology and Infectious Diseases.") whose knowledge of AIDS I have no reason to doubt. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 31 Mar 09 - 02:55 PM This is the Question and Answer under discussion, taken from the Vatican's website: Q. – Your Holiness, among the many ills that beset Africa, one of the most pressing is the spread of Aids. The position of the Catholic Church on the way to fight it is often considered unrealistic and ineffective. Will you address this theme during the journey? Holy Father, would you be able to respond in French to this question? A. – I would say the opposite. I think that the most efficient, most truly present player in the fight against Aids is the Catholic Church herself, with her movements and her various organizations. I think of the Sant'Egidio community that does so much, visibly and also behind the scenes, in the struggle against Aids, I think of the Camillians, and so much more besides, I think of all the Sisters who take care of the sick. I would say that this problem of Aids cannot be overcome merely with money, necessary though it is. If there is no human dimension, if Africans do not help [by responsible behaviour], the problem cannot be overcome by the distribution of prophylactics: on the contrary, they increase it. The solution must have two elements: firstly, bringing out the human dimension of sexuality, that is to say a spiritual and human renewal that would bring with it a new way of behaving towards others, and secondly, true friendship offered above all to those who are suffering, a willingness to make sacrifices and to practise self-denial, to be alongside the suffering. And so these are the factors that help and that lead to real progress: our twofold effort to renew humanity inwardly, to give spiritual and human strength for proper conduct towards our bodies and those of others, and this capacity to suffer with those who are suffering, to remain present in situations of trial. It seems to me that this is the proper response, and the Church does this, thereby offering an enormous and important contribution. We thank all who do so. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 31 Mar 09 - 08:38 PM For the record, I don't think I can actually fault that reply, though I feel obliged to point out the delicious irony of the request for it to be in French. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:20 PM OK, so there you have it. Quite different from the Reuters one-liner, isn't it? No, I still don't agree with it, but it's certainly not a heartless condemnation of AIDS victims to death. The Catholic Church has officially opposed all forms of contraception forever, or maybe longer. In the late 1960's, there was a lot of hope that Pope Paul VI would change that position. But then came Humanae Vitae, the Encyclical Letter of Pope Paul VI on the Regulation of Birth (July 25, 1968). After that, it was clear that there was no hope that Rome would ever change its position on birth control. Humane Vitae isn't heartless, either - in many ways, it's a wonderful statement on the beauty of sexual intercourse within the context of marriage. But in other ways, it's hopelessly idealistic and unrealistic. But maybe, in a backwards sort of way, Rome's refusal to accept contraception was a very healthy event for lay Catholics. For the vast majority of Catholics in most parts of the world, it became clear that the statements of the Pope on certain subjects just weren't realistic. For the first time, it became clear to Catholics that they had to make their own decisions on some matters, even though that might be in contradiction with the wishes of the Pope. Since then, worldwide statistics have shown that Catholics have largely ignored the Pope's statements on contraception, and their use of birth control devices is roughly the same as that of their non-Catholic neighbors. Perhaps this is meant to show us that obedience to authority is not the point of religious faith. What the Pope says about condoms and fidelity is hopelessly idealistic and unrealistic - so were a lot of things that Christ said. Maybe it's good to have the ideal presented to us, even though we can't adhere to it absolutely. Maybe it wasn't intended for us to adhere to anything absolutely, and the problem is our human tendency to believe in absolutes. Jesus himself was really hard on the Pharisees and their belief in exact adherance to the Law. So, the statements of the Pope took an advisory role, not a dictatorial one - and I have to say I think that's healthy. Still, I like the idea of having a pope hold out the ideal of marital fidelity, even though I didn't find it to be practical to be celibate the ten years I was single after a divorce. I also find it helpful to have somebody speak for the ideal of having sexual intercourse open to the possibility of conception, even though I have a vasectomy in 1978 after I found that having more than 3 children just wouldn't work. So, it's interesting to see non-Catholics mount a campaign against the Pope's opposition to birth control, so long after most Catholics have chosen just to ignore him. But as far as this idea of mailing condoms to the Pope as a protest - I think it's a waste of perfectly good condoms. Send them to some agency that will distribute them in Africa. Better yet, send a donation and the agency will be able to buy a dozen condoms for the cost of your sending one. The Pope is unlikely to have any need for them. For that matter, you can send the condoms to me - I know some Catholic nuns who will give them to people who need them. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use... From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:32 PM The bit in brackets, 'by responsible behaviour', is italicized on the original so I'm assuming it was added later for the purpose of clarification - not that I see anything sinister in that, particularly as it had to be translated from the French. I'm impressed at how cleverly it's written though. Of course, I agree with you about sending condoms to the Pope, it's ridiculously wasteful and childish, but I do think there needs to be at least a counterbalancing resistance to the notion of opposing birth control. It seems to me that in poorer countries with less education than is our privilege, Catholicism and the Papal word is taken much more literally. |
