BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices

Subject: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Janie
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 10:41 PM

My parents both have mobility problems, but especially my Dad. Mom, the much more mobile of the two, has no qualms at all about using an electric cart or letting one of us push her in a wheelchair if it means she can go and do or go and see what she otherwise could not. Dad absolutely will not consider it. This refusal has a significant and daily effect on Mom, but also impacts the entire family when we try to plan family vacations or make plans for a holiday get-together that could include touring a local museum or public garden, or increasingly, even getting from the hotel across soft sand to the beach umbrella.

The difference in their attitudes is remarkable.

I admire Dad's tenacity and pain tolerance at times. This spring we made a pilgrimage to eastern Kentucky to visit family homesites and graveyards dating back to pre-Revolutionary War.    Dad managed to walk to the top of 3 relatively steep ridges to graveyards. Mom stayed in the van. The trails and or/pastures would not have allowed passage of either electric cart or wheelchair. He did make it on all three occasions, though there were some hairy moments when we weren't sure we could get him the rest of the way up, much less back down. It was sheer grit and determination that got him through. He also paid a terrible price in the 2 weeks following. He has conceded to use a cane that has a small seat that when folded down extends to additional legs for a tripod support, but it is so low that he has trouble rising to standing position once seated. It was of no use on the slopes. We just went very slowly, and were ready to catch him if his knees or legs buckled. But he could sit once we got to the level ground of the bone orchards on top of the ridges, and we were there to help him stand when ready.

It is 6 months later, I don't think he could possibly make the climb now. I should say that I was very concerned that he couldn't make the climb then.

Mom and Dad are trying to plan a little trip for this fall, and would like to go back to see more of the museums and monuments in Washington DC, where they have only been once in their lives. Neither of them think they can do the amount of walking required through even one museum. Dad will not go if it means using a wheelchair or cart. Mom is resigned to not going because of this, but is hugely disappointed. To her it is common sense that if you want to do something and the mechanical means are available to let you do it, then take advantage of them. Since Dad can not come up with a trip that would not involve having help with mobility short of simply sitting on a balcony at a beachfront hotel, they will probably do nothing.

Makes me sad. Makes Mom mad.

We have folks among us with limited mobility. We have folks among us who are in their 80's, like my parents, some who are probably still very mobile, and some who find their capacity to get around under their own steam very diminished due to age and arthritic conditions.   We have folks among us with parents in similar condition to mine.

I'd be curious to hear from all.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: heric
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 10:53 PM

my mom, recently with dementia but preceded a long time by terrible failing knees, said no way then and no way now. Not even a walker. no explanation ever given and now she is strapped in. Houdini talents in getting out. Falls. Strapped back in.

I've got no answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 10:59 PM

Some folk hold pride in first place above all other benefits. It takes a long walk around the barn to get them to let go of it, for it makes them feel right. The computation does not have to make sense, if it makes them right in their own eyes.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: heric
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:09 PM

I'm not sure pride is the sole component. I think it may have to do with Type A personality and/or a sense of how things are to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Beer
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:11 PM

Janie,
Please explain this line: "We have folks among us with parents in similar condition to mine".   It sounds as if you work in a seniors home or something similar to this?

My first thoughts are, find a babysitter (if he needs one) and leave him at home. He knowns what is required of him. If he can't meet the demands that you have to give in or he has to.   I may sound a bit cruel but not knowing all the details I have to guess a bit. If he is competent than he has a right to make decisions.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: heric
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:17 PM

(Yeah that's kinda what I thought. But then maybe mom wouldn't consider it or enjoy it without him.)

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Melissa
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:27 PM

While I understand that there's absolutely no reason not to use a scooter sometimes, and I know it's ridiculous that I will trek when it's beyond my ability, there's a part of me that believes (even though I know it's dumb-thinking) if I sit myself in a chair, I won't get out.

For me, it's not exactly a fear--not entirely hardheadedness, and has nothing to do with logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:42 PM

"We have folks among us with parents in similar condition to mine"

Beer, I think Janie meant "the Mudcat community" by the "we" in that sentence -- and paragraph.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Janie
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:57 PM

I suspect it is something like that for my Dad, Melissa. Pride is a significant factor, but not, by far, the whole story.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:09 AM

If he'd give in and ride, would he enjoy the vacation, Janie?

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Janie
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:11 AM

Right, Becky. I was addressing the Mudcat community.

Dad doesn't need a babysitter. He is who he is and Mom is who she is. They have been married more than 60 years.   I can't fix or change either of them. I just want to understand. I understand Mom's point-of-view because I share it. I would like a better understanding of Dad's point-of-view.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Janie
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:17 AM

I really don't know, Melissa. He can be very closed to trying something new or different. Once he does try the new experience or idea, however, he is willing to be surprised by positive outcomes, and sometimes, surprised delight.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:32 AM

if he's afraid of looking stupid/incapable, or if he's sure he can't meet his own expectations of himself, would it work to rent/borrow a scooter for your mom--but not have quite enough time to help her get used to it and figure out how it works..and let him have time alone with the thing?

It's not exactly Vanity that makes women dye their hair startlingly dark after their eyebrows and eyelashes have faded white and the rest of them looks ancient.
It's not exactly Fear that keeps men from buying what might be their last pair of boots.

If he's worried about not being A Man, maybe he could be remasculated?

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:35 AM

(of course, I guess I don't know if you're working toward getting your folks to be out romping in the world, or if you're mostly looking for a way to understand the burr in his blanket)

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:42 AM

I've dealt with this in my own family several times.

My brother, who died non-Hodgkins, at age 62, 10 years ago that month eventually became very weak and unstable on his legs. For some time he had been doing the shopping but when he had to give up driving and then walking for any distance - and I mean, any - he just kind of gave up. His wife tried to get him to use the motorized carts at the store but he refused. It just didn't fit his image of himself.

I did get him to use it once when I took him to get his disability diagnosis renewed (still makes me mad - the man was dying but he had to show up to assure them that he wasn't using the Handicap card illegally). There was a long line with no place to sit (!!) and I talked him into walking over to the motor cart and driving it back to the line.

His only comment was: "This is kind of fun."

My now-84-year-old sis had a really bad hip and told me she would just sit in the car and wait for me one time when we were at the outdoor High Desert Museum outside Bend, Oregon. No way would I do that; our brother in law also tried to talk her into using a wheelchair. She finally gave in and had a great day; she tried to ignore the fact that I was pushing her over hill and dale. (She was widowed and our brother in law was also widowed when my other sister died. He had a bad heart and couldn't do anything strenuous.)

She's coming along, though. When she had the hip replaced, she had to use a walker for a period of time and then a cane. She got over that hump by herself. Now that her other hip is bad, she is using a walker that has a seat attached and is grateful for it.

She told me later that using a chair made her feel "old".

As for me, when and if my time comes, I plan to make use of every tool devised.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 08:26 AM

Janie-

My father was pretty stubborn as well but for him (and us) the issue was hearing. I wish we had convinced him to try headphones and mics long before his last two weeks in the hospital. The other hearings aids proved very frustrating. Headphones worked great!

Another alternative is a 4-wheel walker with a seat on it and a basket for "stuff." My mother finds this very useful for gardening and for maneuvering in confined spaces such as restaurants and shops. It also provides her much more exercise than a scooter chair, which she does use in larger spaces such as museums. She uses a regular walker for getting around her cramped farmhouse.

Probably the best thing to do is invite a consultant to assess your parents and their living pattern. There really are better options than being confined to an easy chair and watching CNN.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 08:37 AM

Janie

Tough one that. I have to say as a moderately (my spouse would say utterly) stubborn person with mobility problems, I understand your Dad's PoV. I have a long stick of cherry wood, picked up from cuttings that I sometimes use because it looks cool and can thereby veil my condition and appease my pride.

I realise and hate that my stubbornness means I prefer to stay in, which puts a damper on others' (my spouse for one) wishes to be out and about, doing and seeing things.

I think it was the way I was raised. Part of it is the idea that there are people worse off than me and I shouldn't use such assistances because I don't really need them as others do. Part is just being terrified of submitting to the disease that is crippling me.

Wish I had an answer for you. I think hiring a scooter for your Mom is a fine idea. My brother has done this for our Mom and aunt (80 year old twins) when they visit. Has been doing this since they were in late 60's. They take turns using it when out sightseeing.

Simple thing for you Mom to say, I am tired of sitting, who is going to drive this contraption now? Sneaky way to get your Dad to use it, I know. But it might just work.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 10:25 AM

A possible solution for some places might be one of the small two-person carts.

These somewhat resemble an electric golf cart, but are much smaller.

While the wider stance of the cart would make it unsuitable for many congested areas, there are still a lot of places where one would permit access without creating a hazard to others. (You would need to check in advance with museums and similar places to make sure that narrow aisles or narrow-minded policies don't restrict them.)

With one of these, father would not be "displaying his own disability," he would be providing transportation for her (if she's willing to let him drive).

If his use of an assist could be presented as his "being there to assist her" perhaps he might even be more willing to accept use of a separate scooter or motor chair "because of her need" to have him nearby during excursions.

While this approach might seem a bit "manipulative" it would appear to be a valid concept that could be presented for his consideration(?).

Having used a "walking staff" for decades, since long before I had any limitations on basic mobility, I might suggest that a trip to a larger sporting goods store to show him that "alpine staffs" (similar to ski poles) are used by athletes in "speed hiking" and for more general assistance in moderately rough country might change his opinion on more basic "aids." (A mobility aid doesn't have to look "medical" to be effective.)

The key may just be to avoid treating the aids as "something he needs" and instead calling them something that will let him help someone else more effectively. That he does have someone to "depend on him" perhaps offers an opportunity to try this approach.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 11:55 AM

When we work with parishioners we usually find that they are ready to try the least-assisting equipment they can rationalize trying, while they THINK about the equipment they have been told they actually need. It's a constant continuum-- breaking the news about what they might need and helping them learn to use the equipt they can STAND to have, while they think it over. With a patient attitude from the helper or caregiver, they tend to ask for the equipt they actually need when they DO actually need it, and the less pushing they get the quicker they ask for it.

Example: A cane is not giving enough relief.

Doc to Ed: You really need a walker.
Ed: Don't say THAT!
Doc: Try this other cane style, and let's make sure the height is right, and it goes under your LEFT hand....
ED: Hey, that IS better!

Ed, to me, the next day: I use Edith's old walker at home all the time, and you know, it's a big help when I'm cooking. (Ed's son got him a souped-up walker of his own. It's still in the box. Ed will get it out of the box when he needs it.)


With my mom I just try to always be the one person-- because no one else she deals with except her internist can consistently do this-- is to loudly admire her self-reliance and her lifelong good sense about asking for help. I try never to forget that she has ALWAYS been wiser than I am, and that her gray hair hasn't changed that. A bit.

To ME, SHE's always the mom, no matter how childlike she may "present" herself, with me, and she is always the mentor from whom I should be learning rather than the person who should be parented by a mere scrap of a girl.

And my experience has been that until dementia has taken people beyond that attitude from helpers, that same approach has worked tremendously well for all the old folks I know. They train me to do it and they count on me for it, so I find myself explaining it a lot to adult children who are ready, way to early, to become the parent.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: s&r
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 06:30 PM

Love your last sentence Susan

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 06:42 PM

Our elder friends train me well. I am, alas, quite slow, by their calculations. :~)

Some parents DO need to be parented-- I mean no disrespect to the hardworking caregivers in that situation; what I think makes it hard for us adult children is all the media pressure, making us fear that this stage will come all at once, and suddenly. It seldom does. It more usually comes one step at a time, just beyond our personal learning curves. It's not an either/or thing, whether the parents need parenting. In some areas of their lives that may retain a great deal of functionality while, at the same time, on the same day, in other areas they are quite helpless-- depending on what their lifelong skillset has been.

Humbling to know that our own advancing age will increasingly expose the unlearned lessons, as well as the well-learned lessons.

Me, I wish faking it were one of the well-learned lessons, but alas, I fear as I age it will be more and more obviously the former! ;~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Janie
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 10:27 PM

I've had some wonderful pms from some folks in addition to comments on the thread that are very insightful and informative and that lead me toward greater empathy and understanding of where Dad is coming from.

I will reiterate that I am not trying to intervene to get him to change his mind (I'm smart enough and know my Dad well enough to not waste my time running head-long into brick walls.)    I am simply trying to understand his pov. For those familiar with family systems theory, 'twill help me stay out of triangulating, and be equally supportive of both of my beloved parents.

Aware that many of us are not as young as we used to be *grin* , and finding my own mobility and activities, especially gardening and walking/hiking, which is what has kept me somewhat sane for low these many years, beginning to be affected significantly by pain and joint problems, I continue to be interested in the thoughts of others about these issues. I am interested from the pov of the spectator of the family member, the pov of the family member with significant pain and weakness, and the pov of those intimately affected by the choices the family member makes, such as spouses or caregiver children or grandchildren.

FYI, because of the distance I live from my parents, I am not affected on a daily basis by the choices either of my parents make. I am concerned for the well-being of both of them, but am much more spectator than anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Janie
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 10:33 PM

And I meant to add "keep those cards and letters coming in."

I am finding it all significant food for thought regarding not only my parents, but consider it research for my own aging process in the context of family. I doubt I am the only person reflecting and trying to sort out these kinds of personal and familial issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 10:46 PM

I have no idea whether he is up to making it work, but the possibility of a Segway comes to mind. It is very responsive to small efforts, but requires a strong sense of balance.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 10:52 PM

You know, I'm not sure it's related in any way to the subject at hand and I'm pretty sure I don't particularly want to admit it..but I do a lot of "well, if I can't afford it--I can't have it and that's that" and "well, if I can't do it I can't have it..and that's that"

the closest label I can pin on it from my angle is that it's a form of shame and I cheat myself as punishment for whatever I'm ashamed of within myself.

and I hope I'm never that self-revealing around here again!
ick

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 10:59 PM

Well, Janie, I know that you will not take this wrong....

What my elder friends and our parishioners teach me over and over is that they can and do choose their own sources of support and advice.... that their choice is among peers when they have access to them (senior centers here are very well-attended), or spry "youngsters" who can demonstrate toys (demystifying them) without urging. They are quite good at spotting and stealing good ideas....

The old folks I know use many items their kids don't know they are using. They like to keep their relationship with their kids as adult as possible and not have EITHER party playing parent. Wherever the relationship is about fun and not power struggles, they seem to flourish, as no doubt would most human beans of any age.

The power struggles they perpetuate (and they do, gotta love 'em) may SEEM to be about a current topic du jour, but as I am sure you know it's usually really about something else, something old and unresolved where they still want to be right.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 11:07 PM

Amos -

It might be worth a look, but having seen the ass-over-eyeballs attitude fairly frequently among a small group of young athletes who brought segways to a festival a couple of years ago, I'd guess that most people who need what's generally considered a "mobility assist" might be a bit brittle for the risks involved.

The Segway also flunks the "speed limit" imposed in many places where the public is permitted to use handicapped-assist vehicles. It's perhaps more suited to replacing a motorcycle than as a substitute for a wheel chair. (just a speculatively offered opinion)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:45 AM

Has anyone besides me seen a very different version of Segway?

I was out walking my dog on a nearby 'wilderness' trail (hardpan road that leads to all kinds of trails) when along comes this older man, his dog running alongside.

He was standing on a lightweight-looking chromed four-wheeled platform, perhaps 18 inches square -maybe 2-foot square- with a vertical, chest-high steering rod and handles jutting from it.

The motor was in a small rounded housing that sat on the platform.

I know nothing of its speed capabilities but this man's dog was swinging along at a comfortable pace.

I called after the man, "Nice rig."

He said, "Much cheaper than Segway."

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: heric
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:08 PM

Sounds like this .

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:27 PM

The Segway is - by definition - a two wheeled device.

There are many, probably hundreds, of different kinds of scooters, carts, chairs, and other "mobility assist devices" on the market. Some are quite good and some are, at best, "somebodies half-developed wild idea."

The "bottom end" of mobility devices suitable for those who need/want one are the light weight scooters. Some come apart for easier transport and are called "travel scooters." For the come-aparts, the largest single part generally is around 35 pounds, and 3 or 4 "units" when disassembled are about typical.

Scooters have three or four wheels, (plus a couple of anti-tip castors) and generally have small (~ 10 Amp, 30 volt) motors. Prices for the lighter weight ones, if your insurance is paying, generally start at about $1,200 (US), but "retail" versions can be found for about $900 from Walgreens, Walmart, Sams, etc (generally only via web order).

The "retail bargain" scooters generally have no useful support if something goes wrong, and are suitable only for use indoors, or in good weather on dry level hard-paved surfaces. Most of the light weights are "rated" for maximum passenger loads of 150 lb or less. Most of the light ones have at most about 4 inch diameter wheels, and a fat garden hose, a gravel parking lot, or grass more than about 3 inches tall may be an impossible barrier for the smaller ones.

Most of the travel scooters and other lightweight ones quote about 10 or 12 miles range on a single charge, which usually is sufficient for the places where their use is appropriate - for one day at a time.

Heavier scooters, with drive wheels 6 inches or larger usually have a more robust motor and larger batteries. Motors generally are in the 30 Amp, 30 Volt range. Some of these can climb a 3 inch (or even a little higher) curb and can get through the gravel and grass much more easily. Load ratings generally start at about 200 lb, and higher capacities are available. (Even if the passenger is only 100 lb, one who carries a banjo and a six-pack may need a higher capacity transporter.)

Motorized chairs, with two larger drive wheels and anti-tip/stabilizer wheels front and back generally are in the weight/power range with the heavy scooters.

The larger scooters and motorized chairs probably start at around $2,000 list prices, and go up for a long way.

Both the heavier scooters and the motorized chairs are heavy and powerful enough to be dangerous both to the occupant and to persons, objects, and structures in the near vicinity if not operated safely and carefully. Most "care facilities" where one has been used have the holes in the walls to show the hazards. They don't like to talk about the "injured others."

Operating range on a single charge for these heavier units is usually advertised as something like 25 miles "on level paved surfaces." This may be sufficient for more than a single day of use between recharges, in some places and for some users. Battery condition (affected by both aging and charging practices) may significantly affect the useful range. These larger units are heavy and generally require ramps or heavy duty hoists for loading and unloading for transporting.

I have not found any of the above kinds that is "weather tolerant." If you drive any of them into a puddle of water more than a half inch deep you may have to replace the entire (lower) control unit - at about half the price of a new transporter.

Fairly small two-person carts exist, but I've only seen a few from a distance, and haven't found much specific/useful info on the web for any of the ones I've seen. No local dealers in my area handle them so far as I know.

Larger "carts" and "street scooters" are available, with some having full "street legal" lighting and other accessories, with ranges of 30 to 50 miles or more and top speeds up to 30 mph (or more); but they are rather expensive and probably not suited to the uses of interest here.

In some communities, golf carts are "street legal" with minimal modifications; but that's not generally the case where I've had experience. These are both difficult to tranport between places where they are useful, and usually require more maintenance (effort - and sometimes cost) than the "medically intended" vehicles.

(The unit linked by heric is not street-legal in any place of which I'm aware, and should not be operated on the street. I've looked at many similar ones, and they should be used only for "recreational" purposes.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 10:16 AM

Segway, of course, is not much help to people who have balance issues and/or trouble standing for longish periods of time, or who have spinal or other joint issues that make jostling problematic.

Had a fun chat with one friend yesterday about scooters. One relative is urging a scooter. He freaked out. We talked about logistics. There IS nowhere he can scooter at home, and he is not strong enough to get it in and out of the car to take it anywhere.

BUT, I explained, when he decides to give up his home and move into the the assisted-living place he's considering where he has loads of friends, THEN he can scooter into town and do whatever he wants all day. (An inspiration came to me to tell him to just think of it as a little car, not as a fast wheelchair.)

NOW a scooter is a dream, not a nightmare, because now it's handle-able, mentally. He does use one at WalMart, so he does know how it will b a benefit..... and NOW he's thinking about it on his own.

He has talked all year about selling up to move into that facility, and I think the winter will decide hiom, if swine flu doesn't take him first.

Up here we're gonna lose a lot of our dear old folks to that. It's my latest conspiracy theory-- SF to reduce the Social Security rolls. Don't even bother to tell me I'm nuts-- I've been right way too many times already. Love your old folks while you have them, people. Learn what you can while you can!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 10:37 AM

Hmmm, Janie, I'm thinking about the specifics of this trip to DC that you mention in your first post. I'm assuming, from what you said in that post, that both your parents are in their 80's, yes? ...or close to the 80's? This means that they have a limited time frame in which to enjoy any trips they might want to take, before they are permanently prevented from doing so by health setbacks (stroke, heart attack, broken hip, dementia, etc.). The time for them to grab all the gusto they can is NOW.

My recollection of the museum/monument area of Washington DC (and it's been over 25 years since I've been there) is that there is indeed a lot of ground (or, more accurately, pavement) to cover. Lots of buildings, lots of going indoors-and-outdoors. Fortunately it's not hilly territory but, yeah, one needs to have the ability to be mobile, either independently or with the help of one or more of the devices described here.

Autumn would be the ideal time for the elderly to make this trip -- after the dog days of August but before the chill of winter sets in (gotta be prepared for rain, though). However, I can't envision two people of that age making such a tour independently; they would need younger family members or friends to accompany them, keep them safe from thieves on the streets, get medical attention if one of them falls or if anything else goes amiss health-wise, etc.

If your father can't be convinced to tour the DC museums because of the mobility issue, then can he be convinced to travel to Washington and stay in the hotel while your mother takes the tour with other family members? (Perhaps, once he's there and is watching the fun that the others are having without him, he will relent and use a scooter or wheelchair to join in the activities.) Can he be reasoned with by pointing out that he's keeping his wife from doing something she really wants to do, and ought to do NOW, by his refusal to use an appropriate form of mobility assistance? If the answer to these questions is "no", then I agree with those who are recommending that your mother take the trip without your father along.

She may not enjoy the trip as much as she might if your father were with her, but on the other hand she might enjoy having some mobility on her own terms rather than being restricted by her husband's stubbornness. Since she feels so passionately about this trip that she's "mad" (and frustrated) that your father won't go, then I really think she should go, with or without him.

But if she does, then your father ought to have someone look in on him frequently (though not necessarily "babysit" 24/7) to make sure he's getting along (and getting around) all right.

Sharon
(whose parents postponed a trip to celebrate their 55th anniversary, but whose mother literally dropped dead of a massive heart attack before that trip was taken -- and she was 5 years younger than he!)

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 12:09 PM

>>rather than being restricted by her husband's stubbornness<<

Thats a bit harsh. He is in his 80's and suffering in pain. He may not derive any pleasure by going on such a trip. However I do agree that if things could be organised so that he has all the comforts that he feels would be OK for him, then he may well go and the family could go out without him on certain days but do something very close by for him (meaning his choice) on other days. You don't get anywhere by trying to force somebody to do something against their will.
To get angry with him, smacks of "he won't do what we want to do. Its not fair he is spoiling our day". He will spoil the day more, by being forced to do it.

Sorry no offence meant, just trying to be compassionate to an elderly gentleman who is suffering. You might be fit, but he doesn't sound as though he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 12:37 PM

I didn't mean to be harsh there. Janie said that both her mother and her father were trying to plan this trip, so it sounds as though they would both have derived pleasure from said trip.

Also, she said, "Since Dad can not come up with a trip that would not involve having help with mobility short of simply sitting on a balcony at a beachfront hotel, they will probably do nothing." Sounds like her father is the one doing the "forcing" of his wife's activity by his refusal to budge on the mobility issue.

Janie's mother already is angry at her husband. Apparently the lady does feel he's spoiling things for her, because the original idea was for them to travel together. There's not much point in criticizing her feelings, Villan.

I'm not suggesting that Janie's father be "forced" to sit in a power chair or even "forced" to stay in the hotel room. I asked whether he could be convinced to go on the trip. IMO, he should be presented with the option of using a mobility device, the option of staying in the hotel room and the option of staying home himself, but he should be notified that passive-aggressively preventing his wife from traveling because he doesn't like mobility devices is not an option. Again, just my opinion.

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 12:43 PM

Villan also says, "You might be fit, but he doesn't sound as though he is."

FYI, I have lupus and so I have experienced arthritic symptoms for over 30 years now. I walk with a cane. I'm in my 50's but I would find the DC museum/monument tour daunting and, sans cane, impossible. 'Nuff said?

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 12:58 PM

I often wish public places would do what WalMart has done, and simply make scooters available for rent/use. If public attractions won't, someone could make a small fortune at rental places renting them out.

They also could be rentable at auto-rental places, if they aren't already, and shouldn't they?!?!?!

My FIL used a scooter, but how would that have helped him once the plane landed and he wanted to set off on an explore of, say, Washington DC?

The ADA most serves the wheelchair-bound population because that's who was available to lobby for it when it was passed. But there are still all kinds of places I can't go conveniently that are labeled ADA-compliant (a previous Mudcat discussion). I have to prioritize my walking on a daily basis in light of this so yes, at WalMart, you will see me on a scooter that I can hop off of quite easily to walk well to my car. But a whole day of that would be out of the question, given the barriers yet to be managed logistically.

But having scooters more readily available would be a good start. Sure my friend Ed can hobble to my van and climb laboriously (and safely) into it, but once we get to WalMart, even that independent man is not dumb enough or stubborn enough to ignore a vacant scooter placed at his disposal. Seeing it takes the verbal side out of it completely and he just hops right on.

If there were more of them lying about you can bet more people would be hopping on them.

Soon we will have to deal with millions of people using walkers, at ADA-compliant places where walkers just will not suffice. Airports knew this, and that's where the trolleys came from that zoom thru the
concourses, but the rest of the world has been slow to catch onto that one.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 01:03 PM

Hi Sharon
I was just expressing my opinion. Sorry didn't mean to upset you.

I am sorry to hear you have Lupus.

I ran a charity night at my venue one night for Lupus as two friends I know have it.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Aging & Attitudes about Mobility Devices
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 01:20 PM

No apologies necessary, Les. I'm not upset. Just imparting information so you know where I'm "coming from"! :-)

Good on ya for raising awareness of lupus!   Lupus doesn't get much press compared with a lot of other chronic diseases, so I'm glad to hear you're doing something about that. I'm sorry your friends are afflicted with lupus too. Best of luck to them and to you!