BS: Buck Stops With Obama

Subject: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:40 PM

This is Jan here. ( Ron insisted I put that as he obviously doesn't give a wotsit about the environment, wolves, and now whales.) Actually he does but nowhere near as strongly as I do.

What is going on with Obama? What is he thinking of, or rather not thinking of? He first decides to let the Bush bill stand, allowing Ken Sleazy Salazar to take wolves off the Endangered Species list. (You may be interested to know that if you put Salazar in the spell checker, it comes up with two words, sleaze and sleazy.) Killing hundreds and hundreds of wolves, and that little gem is still going on now. Wolves that came from families of wolves which were bred in captivity, a lot of them. Do you know how much that little lot cost? Talk about wasting our money.

Then Obama decides that maybe drilling in the Arctic isn't such a bad idea, and how about off-shore drilling too, and maybe anywhere else we can drill for oil while we are at it.

Now in an altogether shocking move, President Obama's delegation to the International Whaling Commission (IWC) has decided to back a plan that would legalize commercial whaling, including in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary, for the first time since the international ban was passed over 20 years ago in 1986. Now the so-called Whale Sanctuary has never in fact been a sanctuary for the whales in the last twenty years, because Japan has has never stopped whaling. Has anyone done anything about this flagrant flouting of the law in all those years? No, not any government body anyway. Only 'The Sea Shepherd' with Captain Paul Watson at the helm and his crew of volunteers have tried to expose Japan's illegal activities, and disrupt their dirty business.

Greenpeace has verbally and peacefully tried to expose Japan, to little effect in all the years since the so-called whale sanctuary was passed into law. Greenpeace of course was the first group to call the world's attention to the brutality of whaling.

Back in 1975, Greenpeace launched the world's first ever 'Save the Whales' campaign. The images brought back from the first voyage sparked an international outcry and moved a generation of environmentalists into action. Eventually, after a decade of intense activism, the IWC agreed to ban commercial whaling. That was 1986 and it was one of their greatest moments as an organization.

I am a long-standing member of Greenpeace, been with them since their beginning. I also support The Sea Shepherd and Paul Watson's other vessels, along with many other environmental organizations. I care deeply about this wonderful planet of ours and the amazing diversity of species living on it, or at least desperately trying to live on it!

If the American, British, Canadian, German, etc, etc, people, i.e. you out there, care about this planet at all, now is the time to show it. Write to your leaders and say that you will not stand by while others flout the law. Nor will you stand by and let the Whaling Commission reintroduce legal whaling again. Unless you start caring and emailing or writing, phoning or what ever else you can do, you can kiss goodbye to many species on the earth now.

Obama must know that we will not stand for whaling becoming law again. I have not supported him all these years with my time, effort and money, to stand by while he reneges on his promises, and the war is another broken promise. Do not stand by and let these travesties come into effect or continue, as with the wolves and the war. It's your money he is wasting. Would you spend your money on the things Obama is allowing? If not tell him so. It is the only way to make the government, who are paid by us, act on our behalf and not big business.

Don't allow this to continue; we have more power than you might think, especially now with this president. Now get up and do something!

I have started a Greenpeace wave on Facebook. Please join the wave for whales.

Ron insisted that this be grammatically correct, so I tried!!

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:14 PM

Well said, and fervently too, Jan.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:23 PM

But the worst thing Obama has done for the environment lately was to call the Arizona immigration law "misguided." It's not, of course, more people put greater demands on resources, and bringing people to America for the purpose of making "super consumers" out of them is the worst thing ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:47 PM

1. How does saying "that's misguided" affect the environment?

2. A law can be misguided even if its aim is a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:05 PM

Jan here again. Rig-yes it is misguided and so are you. Please read my post on 'Your papers please'.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: ichMael
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:24 PM

Good luck with your efforts, Jan. But you can expect Obama to renege on everything he promised. G.W. Bush betrayed conservatives (doubled govt, gave us Soviet education programs, and so on), Clinton stabbed American workers in the back with NAFTA, Bush I promised not to raise taxes but did, Reagan did the biggest tax hike in history, and so on back through time. Obama won't act any differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:06 AM

"Please read my post on 'Your papers please'."

          I did. I missed the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:22 AM

More people also produce more, Rig. You think the legality of a person's presence defines whether they are productive or not? THAT is misguided.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:27 AM

NAFTA was Bush I.

From Wikipedia: Following diplomatic negotiations dating back to 1991 between the three nations, the leaders met in San Antonio, Texas, on December 17, 1992, to sign NAFTA. U.S. President George H.W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas, each responsible for spearheading and promoting the agreement, ceremonially signed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: ichMael
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:48 AM

Wikipedia is usually a dis-information site when it comes to politics.

THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary

For Immediate Release September 14, 1993

The East Room

10:39 A.M. EDT

President Clinton: "Today we turn to face the challenge of our own hemisphere, our own country, our own economic fortunes. In a few moments, I will sign three agreements that will complete our negotiations with Mexico and Canada to create a North American Free Trade Agreement. In the coming months I will submit this pack to Congress for approval. It will be a hard fight, and I expect to be there with all of you every step of the way." (Applause.)

http://www.historycentral.com/Documents/Clinton/SigningNaFTA.html

Bill Clinton stabbed the American working class and labor unions in the back. But I don't want to quibble about this here. The thread's supposed to be about Jan's concerns with Obama's environmental policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:04 AM

I have problems with your fulminations, Jan, much as I agree with some of it.

Wolves. I disapprove whole-heartedly of the hunting and killing of wolves from the air, and don't agree with their stated goal of increasing the numbers of caribou and moose. The real reason they are doing it is to increase their numbers so more 'sport' hunters have more caribou and moose to kill. I much prefer leaving it to nature's way of regulating the balance between prey and predator.

But I must point out that in Alaska - and I think that is what you refer to - no wolf has been a pet nor been raised by humans (that is not literally true, of course, because "no wolf" is impossible to ascertain) It is true that ranchers in the Yosemite and Yellowstone areas are permitted to kill wolves that are on private lands, but that is a very different matter.

Alaska is very large. In contrast to England's 50,337 square miles, Alaska has 586,412. Wolves are more prevalent in some areas than others but we do have them all over the state. Estimates are that there are approximately 12,000 Alaskan wolves total. Unlike the lower 49, wolves in Alaska have never been an endangered species, so it does not necessarily follow that they should ever have been on the list.

Whales. So far as I know, Japan is not a signatory to the ban on whaling so there is no illegality involved. Japan's tradition of hunting and eating whales goes back hundreds of years, far longer than the US has been in existence. Much as I deplore the mindset that lets them do that, it is also true that I just don't understand.

Obama. President Obama, I believe, is trying to find a common ground that will let most Americans agree. The fact that I may consider some of it political jockeying is not pertinent, he is there and I am not.

I do not share your view of Ken Salazar.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:42 AM

What has become painfully obvious about Obama is his somewhat bizarre ideas about compromise. Many of us voted for change, not more of the same, and Obama promised that change. But on issue after issue he approached from the middle. What the hell is that? You don't give up before you start do you? He offered up an already compromised position on Healthcare BEFORE the debate even started. When it cones to dickering and bartering, Barack has shown himself a Dick and not a Bart.

On the plus side, I heard he has a post-President job as the spokesman for Eggo.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:50 AM

"But on issue after issue he approached from the middle."

Spaw-

Of COURSE he has- his entire career he's always been a centrist, or sligtly right of center.

Which is why the morons who rail against him as a "socialist" ans his "socialist agenda" etc. are so amusing - or depressing, depending on your point of view.

I think all too many folks cast him in the role of thre "Great Black Hope" who was going to change the world.

Politics, after all, is the 'science of the possible' (mangled quite).

But I DO think he's being a bit more of a wimp than he needs to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:05 PM

I will take a compromising wimp who is trying to do good over a "Christian" macho man who can't read, speak, or perform simple logic, any day of the week...even the second Tuesday of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:28 PM

And so would everyone else here, TIA, but that's simply not the point.

To criticize Obama's performance in office is not tantamount to suggesting that one would prefer to see Billy Graham or Glenn Beck there in his place...

People voted for Obama because he offered them something John McCain couldn't offer them. Because they are now upset with him does NOT indicate that they would now rather have John McCain, and to suggest that it does is to erect a straw man. The election is over! Now we deal with reality.

You cannot defend a politician's errors in office by simply saying..."I'd take him over -------------- (insert name of someone you hate in the blank space). ;-) It doesn't work that way.

We are not forced to choose between Obama and the worst bad dream you can dredge up out of your resentment closet. No one here is saying they wish Obama wasn't president (except those few here who never wanted him elected in the first place), they're just saying that he has come up a bit short and that they are disappointed.

If one cannot say that without being accused of sacrilege or being a traitor to the cause, then I think something is seriously wrong in someone's estimation of what can and cannot be said in political dialogue.

What we have to deal with NOW is Obama. It's no longer a choice between Obama and " a "Christian" macho man who can't read, speak, or perform simple logic, any day of the week"...if it ever was.

So why even bring it up? What has that got to do with anything???

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:51 PM

Hi Ebbie

The ban on whaling was an international one from the IWC, and Japan has been whaling illegally ever since it went into effect. Japan did not have to sign the agreement for it to become law, as it did.

I was complaining about the aerial shooting of wolves in Alaska thanks to that madwoman Palin. I could very cheerfully drop her from a great height, she deserves it.

I know that there are a lot of wolves in Alaska but that does not mean that idiots with guns can shoot them when ever they feel like it. I was not referring to Alaska when I talked about the captive breeding programs, and no the wolves were not treated as pets. They were very carefully reared to keep their fear of humans. Wolves have far more family instinct, bravery, and feeling for their own kind than we do, we ought to be modeling ourselves on them not killing them.

As for Ken Sleazy Salazar, America and its people deserve him, every other species and the environment don't. Do you know what this man has been up to? Or don't you care?

As for me as of today with the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Obama's ban on 'Crush' videos, I do not want to live here any more. I love Ron very much but I want no more to do with America. I have felt unwelcome since I first came here and I won't be sorry to leave. I only wish that someone would sit on you all.

America has been too insular for far too long; it has visions of grandeur which are laughable at best and down right dangerous at worst.

Judging by the response I have had from this one posting I can't for the life of me think why Ron spends his evenings and weekends wasting time on mud cat. I have always said to him why waste time on people who don't care, though some of you do.

You'll all be glad to know that I won't be back as you have proved once and for all that America and its people are barking. You are the most selfish race I have ever known. My rights, the individuals are all that matters here and to hell with the land you live on and every other species. It's out of control and you can't even see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:54 PM

mutter, mutter...

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:04 AM

Mutter mutter right back at you. If you all put the effort and time you all spend on mudcat actually doing something useful like writing to your congressmen and -women and the President, America might actually dig itself out of the mess it is in.

I am not even American and I do more than all of you put together. I care, why don't all of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:16 AM

Ron, how can you say we're insular after all the countries we've invaded?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:31 AM

This isn't Ron, MT, but his wife, Jan.

Jan, may I suggest that you have no idea how we care or what we do. I think you are WAY out of line.

But if this is how you enjoy yourself, have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:37 AM

Sorry, Ebbie. (This is really Ron).   I had told her you are not guilty of the crimes she cites.   But she must be close to the ultimate firebrand.   I've called her the #1 international malcontent for years now.

It's my fault for showing her how to start a thread. She wanted to. I had no idea the meltdown would be so quick--and so serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:35 AM

This isn't Ron, MT, but his wife, Jan.

Or, its Ron playing his usual tricks.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:39 AM

"usual tricks."

Jan has never posted before.   She says she will also never again. It makes no difference whether the poster believes me or not.

But please free to direct any bile to me.    No problem--I know how seriously to take comments from each poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:56 AM

I know how seriously to take comments from each poster.

Ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:22 AM

I misspoke.   (I am also always willing to admit error.   Poster just prior might want to take a lesson).

Jan has never started a thread before.   She has posted before.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:25 AM

A little clarification from Wikipedia about the legality or lack their of in re Japanese whaling:
As the moratorium applies only to commercial whaling, whaling under the scientific-research and aboriginal-subsistence provisions of the ICRW is still allowed. However, environmental groups dispute the overused claim of research "as a disguise for commercial whaling, which is banned."[17][18] Since 1994, Norway, has been whaling commercially and Iceland began hunting commercially in September 2006. Since 1986, Japan has been whaling under scientific research permits. The US and several other nations are whaling under aboriginal whaling auspices. Norway lodged a protest to the zero catch limits in 1992 and is not bound by them. Anti-whaling countries and lobbies accuse Japan's scientific whaling of being a front for commercial whaling. The Japanese government argues that the refusal of anti-whaling nations to accept simple head counts of whale population as a measure of recovery of whale species justifies its continuing studies on sex and age of population distributions, and further points out that IWC regulations specifically require that whale meat obtained by scientific whaling not go to waste. Japan, on the other hand, has raised objections to U.S. aboriginal subsistence whaling, generally seen to be in retaliation to anti-whaling nation's (including the US's) objections to aboriginal subsistence whaling for several Japanese fishing communities, which traditionally hunted whales until the imposition of the moratorium.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:38 AM

Anent "crush videos"

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-20/animal-cruelty-law-struck-down-in-u-s-supreme-court-ruling.html

Jesus fucking christ - the USA thinks it is a civilised nation? No fucking way any more. I am more horrified than I think I ever have been about any other USAian lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 11:07 AM

My current image of America is of an obese man smoking and watching television, spilling oil and food on himself and complaining that the world is going to hell and why is there nothing to watch anymore?

It is curious that a country with so many wonderful people should be so careless and wastrel.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 11:10 AM

Thanks, Ron.

Richard Bridge, there is nothing in the world more sickening than some people's actions. I don't think there is anything peculiarly American about this obscenity. There is a whole world I want to know nothing about.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:03 PM

A little clarification from Wikipedia...

Contradiction in terms.

Have you got a real source for this?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:29 PM

You DARE to piss on Wikipedia, sir??? The Wikipedia security surveillance squad (WSSS) knows where you live and they WILL find you. They have info on everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:38 PM

The nine-hundred pound gorilla in the room is Iraq and Afghanistan.
That's taxpayer money down the rathole for atrocities and killing.
Wall Street bailouts are bad enough but war bailouts are worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:28 PM

No kidding! Yep, that's the 900 pound gorilla, all right. Add Iran and it will become a 50,000 pound gorilla with radioactive rabies.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:57 PM

What absolute tosh and bollocks. Japan is not doing scientific-research at all. It has a huge whaling fleet that is catching whale after whale and processing the whale meat immediately. They have deep freeze and packing machines on board, they are whaling ships. They have not and will not allow anyone on board their ships to check exactly what they are doing with the whales. There are no scientific studies being done on these ships. It there were they would allow Greenpeace and the crew of the Sea Shepherd aboard to view what they are doing, or any government body from any country for that matter.

That has never happened though it has been asked for many times. Over and over again in fact. Their scientific research studies have been asked for but they have never produced anything other than what is already known about whales. They use the latest equipment to find the whale pods and go after them with canon harpoons. The meat is processed, frozen and packed and each ship comes back with a full load of whale meat. Japan has been doing this in full sight of everyone for over twenty years illegally, so where are the research papers for all these years?

Half of you think my post is a joke, or Ron posting, or funny, and that says it all to me. How dreadfully sad that such a high proportion of people only care about 'own-self', me, my rights. Why would you rather tear other people to pieces than face what people are doing in this country and around the world? Other nations are equally guilty as is Britain. The fault is with the human race not the countries they infest.

I am truly ashamed of the human race which hasn't come very far since it first appeared on earth. We could all be so very much better than we are and that includes me; and so very much further ahead in our understanding of everything. But it won't happen and we will keep repeating the same mistakes as we keep waring, and saying 'this is the war to end all wars', or this war will end terrorism, because it won't.

I started a post because I wanted to show Ron, just how worthless it is to post on Mudcat and how pointless. I have shown that in spades, as Ron likes to say. I have very little free time to do anything, so my time is much better spent trying to change what is going on in the world. If you do not speak out and put in the time to inform yourself and do something about these horrors nothing will ever change. Just as the Mudcat BS threads won't. I have seen nothing but the same old rubbish being dished up year after year for the last ten years. Instead of complaining do something constructive about this world, and stop slamming others for trying to make change for the better.

This life isn't a joke, and we only come by this way once for a brief time, so make every second count. If we don't all strive for that then yet again in four hundred years time the same things will be going on, and no doubt Mudcat BS will still be going over the same old stuff having learnt nothing on the way. The only thing that will change for certain is that the human race will have been responsible for the extinction of thousands of other species. Sad, desperately sad. And as you have all thoroughly depressed me I have no need to post here to prove a point again. And yes, I know that I said I wouldn't post again yesterday, but you make me so very angry and upset. Though some of you have been most kind, while others just don't understand and don't even want to try.

Thank you to all of you who were so kind and let me have my rant, I needed to vent. I cannot protest as I would like to in this country because I have no rights at all here. I never will have unless I become a citizen, or in my case gain duel citizenship. I work twelve hours a day five days a week, or more sometimes, looking after nine American children. I pay my taxes and I am married to an American. But I have no voice and no rights at all. Land of the Free, I think not.

To Amos, I always enjoy your posts and thank you for being so kind.

Lastly I do not have my lovely husband Ron beside me, (at the moment he is on his way home from work) so cannot help me be grammatically correct! So please forgive my mistakes and spelling, I'm only human after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:30 PM

Don't worry about the grammar.

Japanese whaling is an atrocity, and should be shut down by torpedos.


If our skies were suddenly invaded by wild fifteen-foot long vultures who arbitrarily picked out humans and slaughtered them, we'd have full military deployment out to eradicate them. We should consider ourselves fortunate that whales do not have opposable thumbs and similar devices, as they are (I suspect) quite intelligent enough to wreak havoc should they choose to. Consider the Essex out of Nantucket, the first haling ship on record to be directly attacked by a pissed off whale. It sank within minutes.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:33 PM

I think you folks are being a little bit tough on Obama. I'm not certain, but I would bet a dollar he loves whales.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM

Amos,

I'm in agreement with most of your statement, but you have one factual error:

"the Essex out of Nantucket, the first haling ship on record to be directly attacked by a pissed off whale. "

It was the first one *** THAT WAS KNOWN *** to have been sunk by a whale- the others just disappeared without witnesses. One can be sure many of the missing whalers ( in small ships) were eliminated by angry whales- that were smart enough to make sure there were NO witnesses.

No case of a porpose EVER killing a human has been found- which proves ONLY that they are too intelligent to get caught.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:49 PM

Argued like a Republican, Bruce!! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:51 PM

You mean from the facts, instead of to a predetermined goal?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:05 PM

"Ron playing his usual tricks".   

Ah yes:   open mouth, insert foot.

Delightful--if only a bit too predictable from the poster in question

When there's no conspiracy theory yet, let's invent one.   No wonder the poster is so popular here--he fits just perfectly.

I insisted on Jan's telling you when she was posting.   Though it should have been obvious.

I use both my first and last name--always--and thereby stand behind every word I've ever said on Mudcat. When the dear poster in question starts using both his first and last name every time, we will be on an even footing as far as transparency of posting.

And who knows it might result in fewer falls into the gutter for him.   Or maybe not. We can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:22 PM

I also have to admit Jan does have a point. If we (and I certainly include myself) spent as much time and effort actually trying to change the world as we do on the painfully aptly named BS, there might actually be some progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:25 PM

She is also correct that as long as Japan etc. can whale in the so-called whale sanctuary, it's a pitiful farce.

I would hope there is a solution short of the one I heard (not on Mudcat):   Australia, since it is close to the problem, impounding every Japanese whaler.   We'd have whale wars instead of cod wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:33 PM

Finally, though there seems to be a strong tendency among the mindless to denigrate Wiki, the non-lazy would discover that Wiki is not in fact made up of whole cloth:   it does have footnotes and sources.   Said diligent researchers could in fact judge the reliability of sources cited and look elsewhere to see if a given statement has support outside Wiki.

Unless of course the main point is to make perfectly unsupported ex cathedra statements (AKA innuendo).   Which indeed does seem to be a main goal of at least one poster.

And by the way, that last statement is not unsupported. I can easily cite chapter and verse.

Goodnight, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:47 PM

Japanese whaling is shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 10:02 PM

Bruce:

I meant asserting postulated facts accompanied by sweeping generalizations because they "should" be the case.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 May 10 - 11:12 AM

For someone with so little available time JanRon sure posts serially & at great length...

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 May 10 - 11:47 AM

Congratulations on spelling "serially" correctly.    There may be hope yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 May 10 - 12:43 PM

The environmental policies can't be detached from the larger human rights violations
supported by the U.S. such as in Indonesia, Israel and Hispanic countries in Mexico, South and Central America and Saudi Arabia.

Obama is a politician who song and dances his way through many issues. He is no different than other politicians in his manner of dealing with these issues.

But the buck stops with you and me, not Obama. We allowed these things to happen
by remaining silent and uninvolved. We have to continue to push Obama and other
officials by protesting against these injustices. Greenpeace works in it's way. I admire
what they do.

Sometimes laws must be challenged like the fiasco presented by the Supreme Court
that Corporations are people. This ultimately affects our environmental policies as we
see in the Louisiana coastline.

Our tax dollars are supporting an unjust and futile occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan.
This is not cleaning up our environment.

These are not separate issues but dovetail with one another. We need to continously
look at the big picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 10 - 12:55 PM

Jan, I also lived in the USA for 10 years as a citizen of another nation, and I understand exactly how you feel about it. I like Americans....meaning the individuals of the ordinary public in the USA. I do not like the basic philosophical assumptions that seem to drive that society, however, nor do I like its government, its legal system, or its social system, and I am horrified by its foreign and domestic policies. What you have there is a lot of basically good people under a very bad system, in my opinion. They have grown up in that system, so their views of reality have been shaped by it, and the results are predictable....but they are good people among whom I number many friends.

I would not wish to live in the USA again. Not until it changes radically from the way it is now. I hesitate to even travel to the USA, and have not done so since 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 10 - 01:06 PM

To be more accurate, I haven't traveled there since a few months prior to the 911 attacks. I was down there earlier in the summer of 2001 for about a week, visiting friends. The paranoid madness the country descended into following 911 and the ensuing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq gave me a very strong feeling to avoid entering the USA at all, and that feeling hasn't gone away yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 May 10 - 01:45 PM

Jan here, yet again!

I don't blame you Little Hawk, I fear and hate coming back into this country every time I leave to visit Britain. I am still treated like a criminal every time I land at Dulles airport. I am questioned, and my finger,-thumb-, and whole hand prints taken in front of everyone. I have a British passport but the address is my address here in the US. I am a legal permanent resident married to an American for the last ten years. I have a green card that took me years of agony to get but it all makes no difference to the INS and passport control here.

I agree that there are some truly wonderful people here but the system really stinks and is very worrying.

For those of you who still think I am Ron not his wife Jan, go get a life outside Mudcat. The reason that I have to post in Rons name is because Ron does not have an email address of this own, he uses mine! This means that I cannot use my own email to set up an account on Mudcat, because it is already in use. This has never bothered me as I think Mudcat on the whole, apart from the music forum, is a total waste of time.

If I ever want to say anything as I have done from time to time, I post through Ron and just say, Jan here. If you don't believe that it makes no difference to me or Ron. Though my style of writing and wording ought to be a dead give away. I for instance will never use these----- instead of these,,,,, as dashes irritate me! And I can't spell for toffee, so words that I would like to use I can't unless Ron is here to help me!

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 May 10 - 01:57 PM

To Richard Bridge, exactly!

How can these videos be allowed because of Americas obsession with 'free speech' and ' the individuals rights'? Torturing animals and capturing it on videos for some sick bums notion of pleasure, is absolutely obscene. Shame on these so called supreme high court judges, who are these morons? Why aren't they allowed to be sacked?

That's all folks, I'm off to do something rather more useful now I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 10 - 06:44 PM

My family had the green cards back in the 60s, Jan, and we went back and forth fairly often between our original home in Ontario, and our new home in New York State. I also fear and dread entering the USA at the border, always have. Customs agents can be some of the meanest, most autocratic people in the world. Some of them are like little Gestapo people in uniforms, the way they treat travellers.

Sadly, this is also often true of Canadian border officials. There was an article just the other day her in Ontario about outrageous cases of Canadian and American travellers being harassed and abused in various ways by Canadian customs officers, and I've heard tales of horror from travellers going either way through BOTH sides of that international border.

Once you actually do get across the border into Canada, though, the sense of relief at being in a much calmer, saner, less stressful society is palpable. I certainly can't say the same about getting across into the USA.

*****

I think you're pretty much right about Mudcat, aside from the music forum, being a "total waste of time"... ;-) However, it's become a daily hobby for some people here...or you might say it's become a habit. And habits (addictions?) can be very hard to break.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 10 - 10:14 PM

I like and respect Ron Davies and I think many of his opinions are spot on. However.

Little Hawk, I am disappointed in your feeding into these histrionics, i.e. "I also fear and dread entering the USA at the border" ? I have exited and entered the US from both Mexico and Canada. Just perhaps if you didn't fear, dread and hate the border crossings so much you might find that the 'guards' are nicer people than you had thought. They are doing their jobs, for pete's sake. I try not to make their jobs harder than they have to be. Do you have any idea what people have tried to put over on them? And when you come along with your fear and loathing you may well exude the same nastiness.

Took "years of agony" to get the green card? What?   Agony? Years? I have worked as an English as a Second Language tutor; I once had a class of six people who came from five foreign countries, languages and cultures, and the sixth was a Navajo from Arizona who couldn't read or write English; I have advised immigrants and put them in touch with people who can help them; I have helped them get jobs; I have helped them prepare the plea to let them stay longer than the visa they had allowed them to do (didn't work); I have helped people study for the citizenship exam; I have been present at the moment when they became citizens and have continued tutoring them on an ongoing basis in every day life. Some of my best friends today are some of these people.

I did not meet a single one who would have claimed agony.in the process. I hope you don't mind if I take your declaration with a large chunk of salt.

"I pay my taxes and I am married to an American. But I have no voice and no rights at all. Land of the Free, I think not."

Question: Does an emigrant to England have the right to vote? Does s/he have a 'voice'? And don't try to say you have no rights here. You have lots of rights; you just don't wish to recognize them.

I won't go into the insulting language that has been used against Americans and Mudcatters, more specifically. Suffice it to say that I see little reason to respect some of the more gratuitous statements.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 10 - 11:34 PM

Well....If we're all such a bunch of assholes and Mudcat a load of bullshit and a total time waster, I can't seem to figure out why you would even bother wasting your own time and associating with assholes..............

Thanks for dropping by and letting us know. I'm sure we are all the better for it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 09:52 AM

Spaw (et al.)--nobody ever said Mudcatters were a bunch of worthless idiots. (Sorry for not using the colorful language you prefer. I trust you can still understand me.)

Au contraire, Jan and I agree that Mudcatters are very intelligent, articulate people.

Jan's point, as somehow I suspect you know, is that with all this talent it is a real shame so much time and effort is wasted by such talented people in largely doing nothing but fighting with each other here below the line.

She is convinced that if all this talent and time were harnessed (in the US at least) in at least signing and writing petitions, and writing to the President, Senators and Congressmen on any of the many issues which need addressing--which is how she spends a good portion of her hours aside from her 10 to 12 hour/ day job-- there is a chance some progress could be made. She is frustrated beyond belief that she can't do more than the above and giving money to these causes--she would like to be in the forefront of any number of demonstrations on issues on which she feels strongly--which are legion.   I find it hard to restrain her--she's a force of nature--despite telling her that as a non-citizen, she would be summarily deported if caught in a street demonstration.

It will also possibly be difficult for her to go through the process of becoming a citizen, due to health issues I will not go into right now--but if you PM me I will tell you.

I warned her before she started this thread that it would not be smooth sailing.

Classic straw man, though--congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:00 AM

And a bit more unfinished business:

"Jan/Ron":

The poster must look rather strange with his foot stuck so far into his mouth that it projects out the back of his neck.

It's interesting that what seems to be blazingly obvious to everybody else is a mystery to him-- he can't seem to realize that Jan and I are indeed two separate people.

But I'm not here to say the suspicion arises that the reason he cannot see this is that he is so bound by his tender ego that he cannot ever bring himself to admit that he is wrong.   In the wonderfully apt phrasing of Mr. Cheney:   "I can't say that."

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:08 AM

And Ebbie--

It certainly seems a strange role to me to be the mediator between two very strong-minded women. I assure you, it's not type-casting.    And this friction is really too bad since I suspect you and Jan agree on the vast majority of issues on which she cares so deeply.

I suspect that if you were to meet, you'd hit it off just great--though admittedly it doesn't seem so now.

Obviously it's unfair of her to imply that because you spend some time on Mudcat BS threads, you do nothing worthwhile.   But it is also unfair of you to imply that because you have assisted people to become citizens, it should be no problem for her--implication: she should stop whining.   It is far more complex than you know.   I believe you deserve a lot more of the story so I will PM you with it. I don't know how much Jan wants broadcast to the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:10 AM

Ron, is that true? A non-citizen participating in a demonstration is at risk of deportation? Even with a green card? Or, for that matter, without one?

That does not ring true, although you are in a position to know better than I. But truly, I would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:32 AM

Exactly, Spaw!

Also sprach JanRon:

I think Mudcat on the whole... is a total waste of time.

He/She must be a mindless idiot her/his self then, to be knowingly wasting so much time, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:35 AM

I will tell everybody a bit of the story, however.


Every time she goes to the UK and comes back by herself--which has been necessary a few times, she is indeed treated as a criminal.   

The alltime topper is the time she came back to Dulles--obviously did not have a US passport-- and was told to go wait in an office without her luggage.   She asked who would guard it and was told security would watch it.   She was in the office with others who didn't have US passports, including a Pakistani man and an older woman with an outdated passport. The man told various security officers that the woman was in turn: his aunt, his mother and his grandmother.   Despite this changing story, he and she were allowed to go--because "it was Friday" (i.e. the end of the week and the officers did not want to be bothered with a bunch of paperwork.)

When she was finally released, she found that her luggage was gone. When she asked about this, a person there told her the Pakistani man had taken her luggage. They had left their own luggage behind, a bag which judging from the weight was almost empty. She was told all she could do is file a report.   The Ethiopian woman who was wheeling her around through all of this--Jan was in a wheelchair due to health reasons--was herself scheduled to get off work already. But the Ethiopian woman despite this volunteered to check around and see what she could find. The woman stepped outside just in time to see the Pakistani and his "grandmother" getting into a taxi with Jan's luggage. Jan's Ethiopian helper persuaded them to give it up, and they drove away in the taxi without it.

So thanks to Jan's helper she got her luggage back. But two rather suspicious characters just vanished into the US.   Again, all Jan could do is tip her new friend, file a report--and write Dulles to report to higher-ups--also praising and thanking the Ethiopian woman and recommending some sort of recognition for her.

Variations on this theme--singled out and mistreated--have been her experience every time she comes back to the US from a trip by herself.

This is not including the joy we have had in with the INS in Baltimore.

And of course the UK is supposedly the #1 ally of the US. Rather amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 10 - 11:33 AM

Variations on this theme--singled out and mistreated--have been her experience every time she comes back to the US from a trip by herself.

Pobrecita! Perhaps if she travelled with a nanny?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 11:40 AM

"with a nanny".   

The poster has shown how much information he deserves on this issue.    I will not, sorry to say, be giving him more information by PM.

I wonder what kind of clothes he wears now. He must need special garments to accommodate the foot sticking out the back of his neck.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 10 - 11:40 AM

PS: JanRon, what does your heart-rending story of abuse, neglect and discrimination at the hands of uncaring government lackeys and assorted nefarious foreigners have to do with the subject of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 11:55 AM

The poster can find the answer to that question by looking in the mirror.

And what kind of store does he go to for his special fittings?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 12:01 PM

We got off track of the thread-obviously--by various side-issues being raised--not by Jan.

To pick a purely theoretical example, one particularly brilliant poster was convinced Jan was my alter ego or another persona I had chosen to adopt. I wonder which poster thought that.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 12:30 PM

Ebbie--

It seems from my research that deportation for participating in a street demonstration falls under "non-violent general offense with potential to cause harm".   But I am continuing to look for more detail. If anybody finds an ironclad rule on this--one way or the other--it would be worthwhile to post it.

Thanks,

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 10 - 01:55 PM

Ebbie - You misunderstand me. I have only once had any personal problem crossing an international border...primary reason being that I behave the same way with customs agents as I do with police officers:

I am polite. I stay calm. I am reasonably friendly (without overdoing it). I do not radiate fear, suspicion or hositility. I answer all their questions succinctly and calmly. I present whatever documents they require. I object to nothing they ask me. I protest nothing. I cooperate with them in every way I can.

That is how you deal reasonably with police and customs agents and other people who have total power over you for five minutes and know they do... ;-)

Okay?

The reason I fear crossing the border is that I did once have a lot of unnecessary trouble with some really mean American customs agents in Detroit, despite doing all of the above, probably because I was a young guy with long hair and a guitar. Sometimes all the politeness and good behaviour in the world won't get you by.

I fear being in any situation where some uniformed government official has total power over me and can harass the hell out of me if he takes it into his head to do so for some reason. Doesn't everybody fear such situations to some extent? Look, I can travel freely all over this vast country I live in and I don't have to explain myself to some border official and prove I'm not a criminal...but when I cross an international border, then I am challenged and must explain myself. I don't feel very comfortable in such a situation, specially given that I still have the long hair and the guitar, and the moment they see me they are going to peg me as "a suspicious type" just because I don't look like Mr Average Joe the Plumber in a suit and tie. They are probably going to assume I use illegal drugs (I don't). That's what the Detroit agents assumed.

Many people feel scared when crossing borders, although they know they are harmless and have done nothing wrong....they are momentarily placed in the power of capricious officers who may find a way to make their lives miserable and to humiliate them. Why wouldn't this bother a lot of people?????

Now, add to that the general political situation in the USA as regards "the War on Terror", Homeland Security, and that sort of thing, and it gets a lot worse.

Furthermore, add to that the fact that although I have had only one bad border experience (out of a fair number of visits to the USA), I have heard plenty of stories from other people, musicians especially, about their bad border experiences...

And there you have it.

You seem to be taking personal offence over my dislike of USA border officials. Ebbie, it has nothing to do with you, and it does not translate to a dislike of other people who happen to be Americans.

(I don't like Canadian border officials much either. They're often like little Hitlers in blue uniforms. Yes, I know they have a difficult job to do. Well, life is never perfect for anyone, is it? But they're not in MY power when I show up at the border, I'm in THEIR power, and that's what I don't like about it. No one likes being put in such a position.)

I wish I lived in a world with no borders. But that's just not feasible, given the present state of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: pdq
Date: 02 May 10 - 02:22 PM

"...just because I don't look like Mr Average Joe the Plumber in a suit and tie."

Wonder what that suit looks like after fixing a sewage leak under an old house?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 10 - 02:27 PM

I cross the border between the US and Mexico at Tijuana and back fairly often. I do it on foot, but have also done it often by car. The pedestrian line and the car line are both long, slow, frustrating. But once you get to the checkpoint, the uniformed agents there have never failed to be courteous and speedy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 10 - 03:25 PM

Here is the statute that so incenses and inconveniences some returning nationals:

http://www.dhs.gov/files/programs/editorial_0525.shtm
"Biometric procedures .apply to international visitors holding a non-U.S. passport or visa"

************************
"The Department of Homeland Security recently published amendments to the regulation governing the US-VISIT program. This Final Rule, which will become effective January 18, 2009, requires all non citizens (with some exceptions noted below), including lawful permanent residents, to register with US-VISIT, upon admission to the United States. US-VISIT is the electronic registration program implemented at land, air and sea ports in the wake of the September 11 attacks. The program has been implemented in stages over the past few years, and now requires all visitors and temporary residents to register at a US-VISIT kiosk upon admission to the United States. Non citizens are required to provide biometric data, meaning fingerprints and electronic photographs, as the system registers both admissions and departures. Effective January 18, 2009, the program has been extended to permanent residents returning to the United States from a temporary trip abroad. 
"Canadian visitors, diplomats (A, G and NATO status), children under 14 and individuals over 79 are not required to register. All other non-immigrants (visitors, students and temporary workers) and permanent residents will be required to register with US-VISIT upon arrival. Registration at departure is also required, but has not yet been implemented in all airports, seaports and land borders. "

Here are some web sites pertaining to non-citizen participation in street demonstrations:

http://conversations.blackvoices.com/education/0a2485872d5240199201c5698e653560/illegal-aliens-on-the-streets-/17735f7a7e1b47a0acd22ca2cac36230

"Recent nationwide street demonstrations by illegal aliens and their supporters, demanding amnesty for 12 million or more illegal immigrants, have been portrayed in the media as representing the views of all "Hispanics in the U.S. However, according to opinion polls, including one conducted by the Pew Hispanic Center, Americans are divided on the issue with 53% saying that people who are in the U.S. illegally should be required to go home. According to the Pew Study, a growing number also believe that illegal immigrants are a burden to the country, taking jobs and housing and creating strains on the health care system. These facts reflect the position of many Hispanic-Americans -- citizens, legal immigrants and the children of immigrants -- who strongly oppose amnesty for illegal aliens and support enforcement of U.S. immigration laws.

"In response to the hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens who have been marching under the Mexican flag demanding to be rewarded for having violated U.S. immigration law, a new coalition has been formed to accurately represent Hispanics in the U.S. who work hard, play by the rules and want the opportunity to see their own kids get ahead. Known as "You Don't Speak for Me," the coalition aims to dispel the impression that the people out on the streets represent the views of all Hispanic-Americans."



Two other bits of information (from a how to behave in a demonstration site):
"The police do not have to say anything to you upon arrest, including telling you your "rights" or what you are being arrested for.

"Absent an arrest situation, if a police officer approaches you (on the street, for instance) and asks you to identify yourself, you do not have to do so. There is no requirement generally that individuals identify themselves to police officers or carry identification cards (except while driving). If this happens to you, politely decline to identify yourself and ask the officer if you are under arrest or if you are free to leave. If he/she responds that you are free to leave, do so".
http://www.portaec.net/library/action/exercising_your_rights.html#5

On another site, one blogger wrote:
* Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country. This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics.
* Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones, even those with green cards.
* Only citizens may serve in the military as officers, on airline crews , and chiefs of seaports and airports.
* Members of both houses of Congress as well as the Supreme Court must be a citizen by birth....
* Immigrants , even legal ones , may not become members of the clergy.
* Foreigners, legal or illegal, may not own land.
* Any citizen may arrest illegal immigrants and their accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities.
* Foreigners, legal or otherwise, may be expelled for any reason and without due process.
THEY SHOULD RUN THE CLINIC OVER HERE SINCE THERE ARE ENOUGH MEXICANS ON THIS SIDE THAT COLD USE THE HELP.

In response, another blogger wrote: "I don't know where you got your info but several of your statements are totally incorrect. Foreigners may own land in this country. Check out how many Japanese buy land here as investments. Military there are many military that are not citizens of the USA. Clergy, have you ever been to church? Demonstrations, have you ever read a newspaper or watched national news in the USA? There are demonstrations all of the time by non- citizens. Get your facts straight before you post!"

http://www.topix.com/forum/mx/chihuahua/TPHOO7NTR968QPF59

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 02 May 10 - 03:32 PM

Recent nationwide street demonstrations by illegal aliens and their supporters, demanding amnesty for 12 million or more illegal immigrants, have been portrayed in the media as representing the views of all "Hispanics in the U.S. However, according to opinion polls, including one conducted by the Pew Hispanic Center, Americans are divided on the issue with 53% saying that people who are in the U.S. illegally should be required to go home.

Um, you can't really conclude from a poll of ALL Americans that the street demonstrations don't represent the views of all Hispanics in the US. Because not all Americans are Hispanic. This is some sand-in-the-eyes bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 10 - 03:39 PM

Glad you see that, MT. That particular article comes from the right wing.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 02 May 10 - 03:59 PM

Wondered.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 10 - 04:04 PM

pdq - Mr Average Joe the Plumber does not cross the border immediately after fixing the leaky sewer pipe under the old house. ;-) He goes home first, takes off his filthy work clothes, changes into a clean suit and tie, and THEN crosses the border!

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:20 PM

Also, I'd question the "hundreds of thousands marching under the Mexican flag".   What's the source--and date--of that one? Articles I read indicate that protesters in general are aware of the propaganda windfall that sort of behavior hands the other side--and therefore march under US flags, a fact which for some reason is not mentioned by the right-wing press.

Re :Jan: One specific incident:   she wanted to protest in front of the White House--I think it was against Ringling Bros for mistreatment of elephants--as part of a Humane
Society group.   She asked the Humane Society point blank:   if I as a member of this protest were arrested, could I be deported?   Answer: Yes; please don't come to the protest.

I actually think that any non-citizen participating in a street protest is foolish: even if not deported, you are playing into the hands of your opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:29 PM

...one particularly brilliant poster was convinced Jan was my alter ego or another persona I had chosen to adopt...

And the proof that this is not so is.....Where exactly?

I seem to recall, oh Simple JanRon/RonJan Seeker, persons being taken to task on this forum by your illustrius self for not providing references, evidence, etc.

And you never the question about why your epic tale of the callous mistreatment and unwaranted persecution of a poor, innofensive cripple was germaine to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:29 PM

There are protests, Ron, and there are protests. The right of peaceable assembly, complete with permit, is a well-established tradition in this country. We do not have the right to block traffic, whether human or vehicular, or the right to cause damage or the right to harm anyone or anything, but we most certainly have the right to assemble with the concomitant right of protest.

In the example you gave, the "Humane Society" told her to stay away; it must be that the word came by way of a human being. That human being could have been as mistaken as anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:05 PM

GregF, where's the proof you're not Ian Khama, president of Botswana? Flinging an absurd charge and then demanding proof it's not true is imbecile. It's the sort of thing the teabaggers do to the president, for instance about the location of his birth.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:24 PM

True, Ebbie, but we have talked to people who attended a protest where some of their friends were arrested. I think it is clear it would go much harder for a non-citizen than a citizen in that event. It is certainly not worth taking a chance on--and also might not help Jan in her long road to try to become a citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:43 PM

In fact quite a few Mudcatters have met Jan--and can confirm that she is in fact a firebrand, particularly on environmental issues--- (as well as my favorite duet partner, to bring the thread to music).

She is not a "cripple", as should be also obvious--in fact more like a miracle woman (admittedly I am not an impartial observer.) In case everybody is not aware, some people have physical conditions which are aggravated by flying. Needing a wheelchair after a flight does not establish that a person necessarily always needs a wheelchair. Also, a careful reader would have noticed that I said she works 10 to 12 hours a day--(then saves the world). Yes she pushes herself all the way--but she thinks it's worth it. Not much time for Mudcat BS threads.

The dear poster who still, desperate to save the last shreds of his ego, cannot bring himself to recognize that Jan really is a separate person who has started this thread and done some of the posts--which ones are quite evident to anybody who can read--- really has to learn at least one basic principle to have any credibility in anything:

When you're deep in a hole, at least stop digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:52 PM

I haven't met Jan but I well remember your talking about her back in 2004, 2005? She is real, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 10 - 07:39 AM

Thanks for the assist, Ebbie. Appreciated.

Ron puts the burden of proof on everyone but himself; he's somehow exempt from the lengthy catechism of rules and appropriate behavior he applies to everyone else.

Apparently, one is supposed to believe whatever Ron says, simply because he says it.

Now perhaps he'll stop dancing around the question regarding the relevence of his sagas of oppression.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 10 - 11:08 AM

Greg, I think you are letting your personal intense dislike of Ron Davies sidetrack you from focusing on the primary subject(s) of this thread...

The primary subjects of this thread have to do with Obama's performance in office, the general political situation in America, the attitudes of customs agents and the difficulties of dealing with them (Do any of us enjoy dealing with customs agents??? I don't think so!)

This thread isn't about whether Ron Davies has a delightful online personality. ;-) It's about various great political and social issues in the USA.

Focus, man! Focus! ;-D This is a friend talking to you...

I think you could find much to agree with Ron about on this particular thread if you just forgot that it was Ron who was doing the talking....I mean, heck, you'r not exactly a big fan of the American government, it's policies, or of USA customs agents...are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 May 10 - 11:15 AM

"Mudcatters have met Jan--and can confirm that she is in fact a firebrand, particularly on environmental issues---"

               That being the case, she should certainly see why upholding the recent Arizona law is some important.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 10 - 11:17 AM

Possibly necessary correction/addition to above...if you could just forget that it is Ron (and also his wife Jan) who are doing the talking...

(one has to be very careful around here, I've discovered, lest one be misunderstood by anyone in any small specific matter whatsoever....)

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 10 - 12:02 PM

Greg, I think you are letting your personal intense dislike of Ron Davies sidetrack you from focusing on the primary subject(s) of this thread

Point taken, LH- but perhaps you can tell me what's JanRon's excuse for not "focusing on the primary subject(s) of this thread"?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 10 - 01:06 PM

Well, I think Jan has attempted to focus on the main points of this thread, given that she launched it.

Anyway, the usual stuff tends to happen as people post...(reactions, counter-reactions)...but you understood my point, Greg. Good enough. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 May 10 - 07:52 PM

Is she real, or is she Memorex?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 03 May 10 - 08:32 PM

Let's see her shatter a glass with only the power of her dulcet tones!

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 May 10 - 09:54 PM

It's true that Jan is rather disgusted--but not surprised-- with how the thread has gotten off track.   The blind alley distraction about whether she and I are the same was particularly absurd. But considering the source of the proposed conspiracy, not surprising.

Main point she had of course is not one Mudcatters like to hear--that we should not be wasting so much time doing anything on Mudcat BS, but rather contacting politicians to try to influence them to solve some of the problems. On this thread she was particularly concerned about whales--and would be disappointed if Mudcatters are not taking steps to try to stop whaling--esp. Japanese whaling in the 'whale sanctuary"--at least by signing Greenpeace etc. petitions..

Instead of what we virtually always wind up doing--arguing with each other--and of course convincing nobody of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 May 10 - 10:14 PM

Well, Ron/Jan, we can agree on that. We can agree on the whale thing too, for what it's worth, and nobody's laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 May 10 - 10:39 PM

Ron, I take exception to this: "Main point she had of course is not one Mudcatters like to hear--that we should not be wasting so much time doing anything on Mudcat BS"

I think it is perfectly legitimate for her to say - even in exasperation - that she can't see how Mudcatters can spend so much time on the 'Cat but I do fail to see in what way it is any of her concern, especially as she has absolutely no way of knowing how *long* we are on it, no matter how frequently we post, and what we do when we are not. When you look at what she wrote, she was downright insulting. If she were a friend of mine, I would demand an apology or at least an admission that she was out of line.

I have little doubt but that she is a perfectly good and loving person - after all, you love her - but she needs to understand that attack has consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 10 - 10:40 PM

Don't Worry RonJan, the very next time I encounter Obama's jack-booted storm troopers mistreating wolves - or whales for that matter - in wheelchairs at an airport, I'll certasinly step right up and do something positive to solve the problem.

Really.

I promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 May 10 - 07:51 AM

So all we have is sarcasm and other evasions.

Not surprising.

Her point is that every minute spent on Mudcat BS is wasted, and could be spent on actually improving the world.   Some of us may support each other on the consolation threads. And the music threads are worthwhile for the most part. But all the arguing that goes on in the BS threads is a classic waste of time.   Some of us spend an amazing amount of time doing it--right through the day.

I'm guilty too, of course.

But her point is unassailable.   Not surprising that few are willing to acknowledge it.

We are all very articulate, aware people--with impressive intellectual firepower--(no sarcasm, believe it or not). So arguing with each other instead of actually improving the world is a sad loss of an excellent opportunity to do something that makes a difference.

I'm sure some will say they improve the world when not on Mudcat.   But the arguing on Mudcat is the issue here.


That's the gist of what she said earlier--and it's blazingly true.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 10 - 08:06 AM

The JanRon situation is easily addressed.

Apparently JanRon has never heard of Yahoo or Hotmail or any of the other dozens of free web-based e-mail sites.

At the expense of perhaps four minutes total, she/he could have his/her own e-mail address (HINT: you can enter bogus info when you register) & own Mudcat identity. Assuming, of course, she/he can spare four minutes from her busy schedule Saving The World and our furry little friends.

Of course, there would still be no proof that this wasn't a simple case of MPD.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 10 - 09:38 AM

Greg F, that is tiresome. I know Ron in RT and I assure you that Jan is real.

But Ron, one could say that all activity not related to goals is a trivial waste of time. What about music? What about your viola playing? What about your beautiful voice and your love of harmonies? What have they to do with whales and wolves? All of that time and effort could be spent in fighting injustice and planning strategies.

I agree that I could live without Mudcat- I could probably even survive without the Internet :), but I choose not to. Through the Internet, including the 'Cat, we make real connections.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 10 - 12:06 PM

From as far back as the primary elections:

I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I TO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-LD YO-U-U-U-U-U-U-U-U-UU-!!!!!

And took a lot of crap for it too!

Oh well, coming from Sanity has both its rewards, and pains!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 10 - 05:18 PM

The question, Ebbie, is not whether the person exists in the real world - I accept that she does, since you confirmed it a while back.

Question is, who is doing the posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 10 - 05:43 PM

To answer your question, Greg, I would suggest looking at Ron's posting history. He has never been shy about speaking his beliefs and I don't for one moment believe that he would even think of hiding behind his wife's shadow.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 10 - 07:01 PM

He has never been shy

Ain't it the truth! Quite the reverse, I'd say.

I don't for one moment believe that he would even think of hiding behind his wife's shadow.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 10 - 08:35 PM

Heck of a job Brownie is now claiming that Obama has purposely failed to address the Gulf oil leak diaster, caused by a Haliburton subsidery, to deliberatly harm the industry.
Rush Limbaugh claims that the oil rig was sabotaged by radical left wing enviormentalists.

The Gov of Louisiana says that this is a one in a thousand event.

I say, I told you so.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 May 10 - 09:52 PM

Donuel - I thought about sabotage right off the bat, but how does it make sense that environmentalists would do it? After Obama announced his intention to increase off-shore drilling, I would think somebody who had oil to sell and didn't want additional competition would do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: mousethief
Date: 05 May 10 - 12:58 AM

I hope it's fewer than one in a thousand. There are more than a thousand deep sea oil rigs in the world, aren't there?

Subject: RE: BS: Buck Stops With Obama
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 10 - 02:05 AM

Rather than jumping to predispositioned conclusions, let's all keep our eyes and ears open. Keep your filters clean, as to get accurate, objective information. Let's not try to 'outdo' each other, by who would be justified,.. but get to the truth!..There is one, somewhere.

GfS