 sj |
||
|
||
Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
|
|
|
Subject: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Barbara Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:06 PM Hi crew. I could use some advice. There's a pubsing I go to every couple weeks, and every so often one of the other singers talks while I'm singing. Actually there's a certain amount of conversation during songs, usually whispered, but this particular guy ... let me give you an example. I was singing Harbors of Home and as I was doing the verse "It seems like it was yesterday I heard the church bells toll And the time it goes so slowly as the hours slowly roll They tell me passing days will surely heal a wounded soul But my tears would fill the harbors of home..".
...when he called to the waiter across the room, asked for his glass and his wife's to be filled, and then requested a menu "because he wanted to order some food to eat, thank you" ... all in the volume of voice you use to speak to someone 12 feet away. I got rattled and blew the words.
So I've asked him a couple times if he'd not do this while I'm singing, and he says, "Do I do that? I don't remember it. Sure, I'll try not to."(The example happened after the second time I asked him)
Well, I hurt his feelings and pissed him off. He told me that after the sing. Now he wants to meet with me and talk because I criticized him in front of his friends and because I keep bringing up this stuff about his talking.
Guys, I need to know what works. Probably my best hope of singing with this man is to NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY, and let what he does blow on by. I think I make him uncomfortable, so he just doesn't see me (I become invisible). What happened last night will probably make him more uncomfortable and exacerbate the behavior that bugs me. Dang.
|
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: GeorgeH Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:19 PM Forget the thicker skin - rudeness is rudeness. But I suggest you talk over how you're feeling with some of the other singers at this event; they may have a useful "take" on it! Good luck, and don't let 'em grind you down! G. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jeri Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:25 PM First thing is, realize you're right. You asked him not to talk while you were singing, and he ignored you. You did so privately, and it failed to get his attention. Ask him why he continued, knowing it bothered you. Ask him if he doesn't think it's obvious to everyone else that he does it. You should be polite when talking to him about it, but whatever happens, do NOT let him make you feel like you did something wrong. You are not the party who should be on the defensive - he is. (I'd personally just stop singing in the middle of the song and stare at him until he shut up.) Jeri, who's full of advice....and other stuff. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: MMario Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:31 PM Is there possibly a third party that could intercede? |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Barbara Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:34 PM Yeah, Jeri, thanks. I've been trying to get up my courage to stop and stare at him when it happens. I'm working on it. You know, I really think he talked without thinking, though maybe that particular verse made him uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure he really doesn't remember doing it. You know how, when someone in the room is doing something really gauche, how everyone will sort of put their blinders on and move away, while erasing the event from their consciousness? I think that's what he does. I make him feel ill at ease, so he erases me.
You want to come along to this meeting with me and be my moral support, Jeri? |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: sophocleese Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:39 PM I agree that talking it over with other singers in the group would be useful. In a song circle I go to we lost several people because of one rude man who wouldn't keep quiet. I lost my temper one day at him actually and stopped my song halfway through to tell him to be quiet. I'm still embarassed and annoyed with myself for doing it and wouldn't recommend ot to others as a solution. I kept going to the circle because I knew that others were irritated by him so I wasn't struggling alone and therefore I didn't have to take it personally. This man that you are having trouble with does at least wish to talk about the problem which is a good thing and privately he may be more amenable to sweet reason than publicly. If he continues to bother you afterwards do your best to ignore him because he's being rude and seek support from others in the group. Another person asking him politely to lower his voice because they want to hear you sing might do more. Another quick thought that occurs to me is that he may be losing some of his hearing and therefore be unable to judge volume. Are there other occasions when his volume seems inappropriate for the circumstances? Whatever happens keep on singing and singing and singing. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: annamill Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:40 PM Jeri and Blessings, Barbara. I agree totally with stopping till he shuts up. Rudeness when someone is performing is one of my greatest pet peeves. When I had my first gathering, we had a man who played the tub base...AND TALKED INCESSENTLY when we were trying to listen to great music (only in my opinion). I finally faced him down and told him he was as great an oratator(SP) as Mark Twain. He was insulted and was going to leave, but I told him I didn't want him to leave, just enjoy the music and that I had just paid him a great compliment. He stayed and he shut up. I didn't ask him to the next gathering tho. Next time this rudeman (new word) talks, stop, ask him if you were disturbing him and if it would be alright with him if you continue. Then wait for an answer. He won't talk again, and he'll get over the embarrassment. Love, annap (with her dander up today) (What does that mean, exactly, I wonder) |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Allan C. Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:41 PM I agree with George H.. Since I wasn't there to see and hear the whole thing I am not sure whether I could give objective advice. We had a similar guy at Annap's gathering. I think he may have had a drink or two and forgot his manners. He crumpled a couple of beer cans while some songs were being performed during the round-robin session. Luckily, he was way in the back and was not a total disruption for everyone (I think). Fortunately, his wife, who was apparently sensitive to his behavior, spoke to him after the second crunching and all was well. Perhaps a conversation with someone well acquainted with this guy's partner would be productive. You might at least get the benefit of some more insight as to why this guy is the way he is. I mean, if you learn that the guy is a chronic ass, then further conversation will likely be of no use. Or you might discover that he is totally puzzled about the whole thing and would like to work it out with you. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jon Freeman Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:51 PM Although my reaction in the first instance would be along the stop and stare lines that Jeri suggested (you often find that it is sheer rudeness on somebodys part that others will join in with the stare). We don't have singing sessions round here but in the music sessions we do get the odd song and as a general rule, the players will all very quickly support the singer and shut somebody up who rudely makes a noise over the top of a singer. It seems that this one has already got very personal already and I would suggest as George has that the best plan is to talk it over with other members of your singing group first. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: GeorgeH Date: 22 Sep 99 - 02:19 PM Sorry to be flipant in a serious discussion, but annap, you've just reminded me of the occasion where Martin Simpson asked the crowd at the bar - across the PA - whether his performing was disturbing their conversation . . (this did lead to SOME improvement! And its recollection has brought a grin to my face.) G. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: bbelle Date: 22 Sep 99 - 07:19 PM When I was singing professionally, I sang mostly in bars and had to learn to not be upset when someone talked. But there is a limit. I remember one occasion when a man was singing along to every song I sang and decided he would join me in front of the mike. I asked him if he knew "If I Were a Carpenter," and when he replied "no," I said "Good, that's what I'm going to sing next." He and his little group left and the night continued on very well without him. Another occasion was when I was singing at a local bar and there was a woman sitting right next to me and she sang every song ... offkey. After a while, I leaned over and said "I'm flattered that you want to sing along with me, but would like it to be intune." That all may sound callous, however, these two individuals really were not very pleasant, they were not regular customers, they were barhopping, and they had no respect for, not only me, but for the patrons who had come to hear me. I realize this isn't your same situation, but rudeness is rudeness. If this person is a regular at your song circle, they are well aware of the protocol. I have become weary of "talking" over everything that happens in life. I think I would simply say "I'm sorry you were offended by me because it was not my intention." I think talking it over won't solve anything because his ego is too big and he probably won't get it. Of course, I don't know any of these people and my rhetoric may just be totally off kilter ... moonchild |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Date: 23 Sep 99 - 11:45 AM This rude bastard will respond well only to direct confrontation. So what if you get mad and don't say it as eloquently as you would like. He's being an idiot and a selfish pr*ck. Tell him so. If he's worried about how the others will take your public criticism; it's because he knows you're right! ... and lead by example, the way you behave and respect other's contributions will certainly be noticed - and is probably already understood. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Bat Goddess Date: 23 Sep 99 - 12:32 PM Sometimes the other musicians (and singers, believe it or not) at a session can be totally oblivious. The one time I stopped in the middle of a song because of the volume of talking and being ignored by some of the instrumentalists (one of whom ordered dinner), I got an incredible amount of static. My husband called me unprofessional (although he's done it upon occasion at the same session) and the people who were trying to listen were hurt, asking me what they had done to get me upset, etc. On the basis of that incident, I try to just ignore the interference (the location of our session is a marvelous place to practice projection) and concentrate on the song. I've been reassured many times that, despite appearances, *someone* is listening & enjoying! (It's a real pity that someone disturbed the singing of "Harbors of Home"!!) But I don't know what other advice to offer, if talking to the person privately and publicly doesn't seem to work. Linn |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Liam Devlin Date: 23 Sep 99 - 12:47 PM Maybe I am being repititious, but sounds like this guy needs to be, as we say in Texas, Slapped Upside the Head. Rude is rude - if he's being rude let him know it, in no uncertain terms. He'll get over it, and so will you! |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Bert Date: 23 Sep 99 - 01:19 PM I would say that if you've asked him nicely and that didn't work then you should just stop singing and tell him to shut up. Johnny Cash did a similar thing at 'San Quentin' and the rest of the audience cheered. Bert. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Sep 99 - 02:18 PM Barb, you want that I should send Cleigh out to bite his ass? Or maybe take a chomp out of him elsewhere? He ain't much of a whistler, but he loves you. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: folk1234 Date: 23 Sep 99 - 03:30 PM Dear Barbara: Its so difficult to teach manners to adults - you're really not teaching but only trying to enforce what they've learned many years ago and now select to ignore. However, there may be another approach. Since he also is a performer, why don't you offer to do a duet with him? It may work and he may become one of your most ardent supporters. I am suprised at my pacifistic advice. Like many above, my first reaction would be to be rude right back to the slob. My second reaction would be to be physically unpleasant. Good luck & happy chords |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Sep 99 - 06:42 PM I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that conversation and other disturbances are really hard on performers - and audiences. I get the same kind of stuff, mostly from adults, when I'm singing to groups of kids. Usually, I put up with it and muddle through as best I can. I do have a remedy that works pretty well, however. I call it the "torch song maneuver." Barbara, go sit on the guy's lap and sing right to him. Tussle his hair a bit. I did that to a guy once and the guy never spoke another word - not ever.... -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Lonesome EJ Date: 23 Sep 99 - 06:59 PM How about working up a short rendition of the old soul song You Talk too Much . Whenever he starts his routine, take a quick break from whatever you were playing and give him two bars of it. You should get a laugh, and I'll bet he shuts up. If that fails, Barbara, be aware that arsenic is virtually undetectable when administered in proper dose. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Sep 99 - 07:29 PM I suspect that he wants to talk to you privately so that he can whinge at great length about how much you have hurt his feelings by criticising him in public. He is trying to transfer his problem onto you. Please don't fall for it just because you have scruples and he, apparantly, does not. The man seems to be a self-obsessed idiot and should probably be treated as such. Malcolm |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jeri Date: 23 Sep 99 - 07:45 PM Well, he's either gonna go for the "oh, poor me, I was wronged and hurt" line, or he's gonna go for the patronizing "listen, young woman and I shall explain why you were wrong and how you should behave" line, or he's gonna get mad. Whatever. It will give you a chance to explain in detail what provoked it, and what he needs to do (shut up) in order to prevent further animosity. I may be reading a level of assholeness on his part that isn't there, and he really doesn't have a clue. You have to tell some people five or fifty times before they get it. I really like Joe's suggestion about sitting on the guy's lap and messing with his hair. Joe, what would you have done if the guy wanted a date? |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Allan C. Date: 23 Sep 99 - 07:53 PM Priceless, Joe! |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Sep 99 - 07:58 PM Hmmmm......uh, I dunno here...er, well........geez this is tough, but, well.........Maybe there's more "priest" in Joe than I realized.................... Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:15 PM Careful, spaw, you're stepping into a stereotype there.... I guess I have to admit that there were times in the seminary when I wondered if I was the only straight guy around. My classmates were ordained four years after I left - I'd say 10 of the 12 who were ordained were straight, and 12 of the 12 were celibate (at least, to start off with....) But to tie this back to the subject, I've seen priests stop a sermon when somebody's kids were making noise. I can't agree with that, but when it's ADULTS who are causing the problem, that's another matter. You have to understand that most people don't realize they're causing a disturbance, and deal with them gently. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Wally Macnow Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:26 PM Long ago, I got over being polite about it. I really don't like losing my concentration when I'm singing, whether it's a song that I'm learning or one I can do in my sleep. It just doesn't come out the way I want it to when I'm disturbed by someone's conversation.
Over the years, I've dealt with it in different ways. The first is to stare at the talker. If that doesn't work, I may stop and speak directly to him or her saying something along the lines of "Let me know when you're done. I'd like to finish this song." Other times, I guess I just muddle my way through the song and then depart. A good sing with a good crew is simply great fun. Sometimes though, it's tough even when people don't talk. I've had people sitting next to me having great time singing a loud harmony that's totally off key. A very recent experience, and a first of this kind, I was singing in a room full of people. Some woman began to sing the melody with me. This created a couple of problems. It was not a group song with a chorus, it was sung a capella, and the rhythm was a little quirky. Well, this woman, I guess, thought she had it down pat. So she sang loudly and just a fraction of a second behind me. Drove me nuts, I had this alto reverb ringing in my head. I blew one of the verses, finished the song and quietly departed. It just wasn't a situation that I was comfortable singing in. I sure didn't feel I could tell her not to sing. Other situations that need clear statements: I sing a lot of songs unaccompanied . Often there will be one or more people in a room who feel that they will help me out by playing a rhythm instrument, usually a guitar. The reason I sing the song unaccompanied is because the rhythms forced by a guitar or banjo are exactly what I don't want. I usually just stop and ask people not to play. Most singers who don't sing a capella have no idea why I wouldn't want a guitar behind me. Wow, did I get on a soapbox or what? |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Mudjack Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:35 PM Hi Barbara, The first thing that rang the Alarm was PUBsing. They tend to be loud and some who indulge in drink tend to be oblivious to manners. I think you are probably doing the right thing in attempting to meet with the rude dude, but would recomend a third party who is familiar to you and him. Third person could be beneficial in preventing further problems. If a third person can't be present, I don't think you should meet. You might try and write down your grievences and from there set up a meeting. Writing can sometimes express better in words without body or facial messages that sometimes sends messages that offend. Don't run, stand your ground but with kindness. We all know Barbara has those blessings of kindness. Good luck and hope this one gets resolved. Mudjack |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: kendall morse (don't use) Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:41 PM OLD HEBREW PROVERB.. IF A MAN calls you an ass.. you may ignore him, If two men call you an ass, buy a saddle. I was doing a bluegrass festival a few years ago, and the promoter asked me to sing Old Rover.. a song about a dog. As I introduced it, an old drunk in the front row spelled it out DOG.. then CAT.. so, I stared at him until he realized that I was looking directly at him. When I was sure I had his attention, I said "Go ahead, I'm just waiting for you to get to Chrysanthemum.. He left to loud cheers from the people who wanted to hear the music, not some nit wit drunk. Say, why wouldn't this make a good thread? Or, has it been done? |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Les B Date: 23 Sep 99 - 10:56 PM Barbara: Why not just print out this interesting list of responses and present it to him ? |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Alice Date: 23 Sep 99 - 11:11 PM Wally, I felt like I could copy and paste your message in here ... you were describing exactly what I have experienced. It really bugs me when the same loud (has only one volume) person tries to sing or play along and they don't have a clue that singing solo a cappella is what I WANT to do for very good reasons. Doubly irritating is hearing them trying to sing an off key (loud) harmony with me when they have no clue what the words are and are trying to read my lips, stumbling along a few seconds after each word. geesh, you would think sober people would have more awareness than to do that. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: campfire Date: 24 Sep 99 - 12:59 AM I went to see a local performer at a coffeehouse about a year ago. Unfortunately, since the coffeehouse has some customers that are NOT there for the music, they sometimes talk more than the rest of us would like. The owner tries to keep the "coffee" customers on the other side of the place from the music, but this particular night a table of four college students was sitting closer to the music than they needed to (in our opinion, anyway). The performer did an instrumental piece, with all subtlety drowned out by the conversation at the one table. When he finished, he said "I wrote that one as an instrumental, but the people at that table just put words to it." Most of us laughed; unfortunately, since the students weren't listening to him in the first place, they never got it. campfire |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Barbara Date: 24 Sep 99 - 01:32 AM Thanks, gang, you've given me a lot of food for thought... and some wonderful suggestions. The guy doesn't drink alcohol and his wife might get bent about my sitting on his lap, but other than that, I've got quite a list of ideas from you all. And I sure appreciate the support. Today has been, in the words of the 13 yr old, an ultimately sucky day. So it's good to come back to the 'cat and find y'all cheering for me. I'd like to say I've never been oblivious to another singer or stepped on their song, and I can say it, lying thru my teeth as I do. Sigh. What does it take to make us more blivious? (Less oblivious). I'm certainly working on doing it less. My biggest blind spot (that I am aware of) is that I love to sing harmony, and I don't do it as well as I think I do. (Sorry-in-advance, Alice). I have discovered by having a hand held tape recorder with me, that sometimes I'm off when I think I'm on. BTW, anyone know a cure?
But, to get back to the guy at the pub, I suspect he does want to take me to task for embarrassing him in front of his friends. I like the idea of including a third party. Maybe one of the other singers can help. And I like folk1234's suggestion. I discovered one time before when the guy was really bugging me, by asking him how he was doing, that he was feeling really depressed about a bunch of things. So maybe we can have a real dialogue if I refuse to do the female thing and accept the blame. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Rick Fielding Date: 24 Sep 99 - 02:07 AM Barbara. Sorry to get in late on this (I've been teaching tonight) but I certainly do have some feedback. For a number of years when I sang in bars I put up with incredible rudeness and stupidity from yakkers. Whenever I talked about this, people (even other musicians) would say "Oh, they don't know they're being rude" or "well that's what happens when you sing in bars". Often the ones who talk loudest are your friends. At a certain point I guess I just sublimated the whole thing because I ALWAYS needed the money. I developed a hostility for people who go to a place with entertainment and talk through it, that is still with me in spades today. Fortunately I got out of bars before that hostility (often barely masked with humour) got me beaten to a pulp! Giving up a pretty sizeable income (for a musician) was at first devastating, but I replaced the 5 night a week bar thing with teaching and returned to playing only festivals, folk clubs, and places where people WANTED to hear folk music. Had I not, I think I might have killed somebody (I ain't kiddin' about the hostility) It doesn't happen very often now that I've become really choosey about gigs, but when it does it still makes my blood boil. Problem is, you're in a no-win situation. If you're rude in kind, a percentage of the audience will feel sorry for the person who started it. AND you'll get a reputation for not being nice. If you talk to the person afterwards, (and they're not a total jerk) they'll probably act surprised, and feign ignorance and you'll feel that maybe you blew the whole thing out of proportion. Plus, the next time you see the person, you'll probably start thinking about it and blow your words! I've seen singers use all sorts of ways to try and get people to shut up, and the only way it truly works is to get the rest of the audience on your side. It requires a certain amount of extoversion and can be risky, but if you can stop the song, and tell the person that you're trying to sing as best you can for everyone and that they are really making you nervous and hurting your confidence, it should work. The audience will be SOLIDLY on your side because you told the truth in a moment of crisis. Two performers that I admire(d) Stan Rogers and Tam Kearney would just tell people to "Shut the fuck up!" and make it work. But they had (Tam still does) the delivery to get away with it. Good luck. Rick (blessings right back at you) |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Tony Burns Date: 24 Sep 99 - 09:00 AM I have the same feelings about talking audience members as Rick. As a matter of fact I went to an event in my old home town and someone I hadn't seen it over 30 years said she remembered me as the person who insisted everyone shutup while someone was singing in the 'Coffee House' she had once in a while in her parents basement. I would like to provide one further example of why I stopped going to bars to listen to performers. There was a 12 hour event held at the old Albert's Hall in Toronto in honour of all the open mike stages that were around at the time. The best of the open mike acts were scheduled to play throughout the day. Being a keener I showed up at the beginning and being stubborn I stayed for about 5 hours. I eventually left because of the rude folks in the audience. The shocking thing, to me, was that the worst offenders were the other open mike performers who had either had their turn or were waiting to go on. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: KingBrilliant Date: 24 Sep 99 - 09:18 AM Tony, I noticed the same thing at a local folk festival - it was other performers who were being the most noisy. The worst was when a group of 3 unamplified acappella singers (who were absolutely sublime harmonists (is that a word) were singing, and you could hardly hear them over the noise from the bar at the back. You would expect other performers to be more aware - but now I wonder whether it is perhaps to do with nerves and adrenalin. Perhaps is just the nervous energy making them chatter & laugh etc... (not much of an excuse tho' is it?) Kris |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Bill in Alabama Date: 24 Sep 99 - 09:29 AM Barbara-- You should simply refuse to take part in any one-to-one discussion with this yahoo. If he's uncomfortable with being embarrassed, he can prevent it by shutting up. Mutual respect should be the keynote (no pun intended) of a fellowship of musicians, and anyone who cannot observe the amenities deserves no consideration. My feelings are so strong regarding this sort of behavior that I must make myself stop writing now, before I begin to preach. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Rick Fielding Date: 24 Sep 99 - 11:01 AM Tony and Bill (and King) I love you, and want to bear your children! Rick |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Magpie Date: 24 Sep 99 - 12:45 PM I think that where jam sessions in pubs are concerned, we should also remember that a pub is exactly that; PUBLIC. The sessions I attend are somtimes (from some people's view) ruined by other customers' bad manners. But we (the musicians) don't own the place! On the contrary, we're so lucky to have a place that welcomes us and our music, gives us free, or cheap pints, treats us like family and provides us with a place to meet and exchange songs, tunes, techniques and other musical whatnots. In our circle of musicians, there is one woman, an incredible talented singer, with tons of inspiring stuff. The only ting is that she WILL NOT TOLERATE any kind of noice from the other customers. She has, on several occasions, blown her top, and told the (ignorant yes, but full paying) customers to bugger off, and that they have ruined the whole session for us. Well she achieves what she wants, the poor sods DO bugger off (totally bamboozled), but the rest of us are made so uncomfortable and embarrassed by her outbursts that the sessions lose all their warmth, spontaneity and feeling. Yes, it's annoying when guests are noicy, but I still think we (the musicians) should be a bit tolerant. Magpie |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Bill D Date: 24 Sep 99 - 01:17 PM seems to me that, in a bar, or other open mike, there 'should' be some emcee to do the dirty work when talking gets obtrusive...if the performer has to handle it, it gets more awkward... In a private setting, or at a camp or casual singaround, it requires various solutions..sometimes just the host saying early on..."...and lets all remember to take conversation and such to the back room" might help... as far as behavior of participants..(singing off key, or a slightly different tune, or guitarists who 'play along' on everything,) ....sometimes you just have to tell them...even good friends. I know one fine singer who seldom just sits down and joins a sing, but stands on the edge and waits to be begged ...then sings a fine song..and, when finished, usually goes back to gossiping and chatting, I often wonder why someone does not say..."shhh, I'm trying to listen". And there are other 'clueless' souls, who, though fine singers, seem to feel that grants them the privilege of doing every third song in a group of 10-12 people...*sigh* Me? oh, I'm perfect! |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Angus McSweeney Date: 24 Sep 99 - 01:20 PM That's a good point - I don't want to alienate the rest of the circle. However, ... when my kids were old enough to know better I used to stop there interruptions of my conversation with "I'm sorry, did the middle of my sentence interrupt the beginning of yours?" Pissed 'em off, but they got the message. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jon Freeman Date: 24 Sep 99 - 04:01 PM Magpie, in the pub type situations (I only really know folk club and instrumental jam sessions) round here, I have always been strongly in favour of finding a venue that offers a separate room open to anybody to come into and join in or listen. Several years ago, on one of the rare occasions that I was the compere at a local folk club, we had trouble with a very noisy group of 4 people sitting at the front and politely talking to them did not make any difference. If I spoke to a male member, it was "don't blame us it's the women" and I knew that with their attidudes if I had of spoken to one of the women, I would have been seen to have been picking on women by them". They were ruining the night for everybody and I had to do something so over the microphone, I pointed out that I would have them ejected if necessary, there were 2 bars, one for talking and one for listening but there was no need for things to go that far and asked them to be reasonable about things and that if they wanted to stay in this particuar room, that they should be considerate to the performers and those that wanted to listen. I was actually worried doing this but to my surprise, after I had finised my little speach,I got a "standing ovation" from the rest of the audience (and we were full that night) and although one of the women pointed at me and shouted out "I'm going to F'ing kill you" they stormed out of the pub and were never seen again. Believe it or not, this night actually ended up as being one of the best singers (no guest) nights that the club ever. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Bert Date: 24 Sep 99 - 04:16 PM At certain of our sings in the Philadelphia area there is a group of people who just come for the food and to chat. At one house, the food was quite close to the singers, and the chat was getting noiser by the minute. When my turn came around, I put aside the song that I had practiced, stood my guitar against the wall and performed a very loud & forceful acapella version of "The Barley Mow" that drowned their chatter. It got their attention and they were much quieter after that. Fortunately I didn't have to sing again for a while, my voice was just about dead. Bert. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Magpie Date: 24 Sep 99 - 05:51 PM I don't mean that we should out up with everything, noicy guests somtimes annoy the hell out of me too. Particularly when I get a request. Everybody hushes up, I start singing, watching the crowd listening, and especially the person asking for the favourite song, and in comes a bollox who's been away for a month, booming his hello's, and how'r ya doin's, slapping backs and making loud kissing noices all over the shop. Makes me seething! Magpie whosnotalwaysthatpatientbuttriesreallyhardnottoblowhertop |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Barbara Date: 24 Sep 99 - 06:14 PM Sometimes getting quieter rather than louder makes people shut up and listen.
I should probably clarify what this pub sing is like, since I've learned the terminology in the second etiquette thread. This sing is actually an invitational performance song circle with 8 to 16 people, and while it takes place in a pub, it happens in the back room with no audience present. Most of us have a couple pints in the course of the evening, but some of us don't drink at all, so it's not particularly rowdy, and its somewhat thematic -- older English pub songs being the focus. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Allan C. Date: 24 Sep 99 - 06:27 PM Well then!! The man should most definitely be brought up by the short hairs and made to feel the sting of whatever wrath you find within you! |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Allan C. Date: 24 Sep 99 - 06:29 PM Just kidding! Well, sort of. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: sophocleese Date: 24 Sep 99 - 06:39 PM He's a twit! If talking privately hasn't worked then more drastic measures are definitely indicated. Re-read this list and take your pick. Perhaps dumping a pint of something on his head would help... |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: poet Date: 25 Sep 99 - 07:36 PM After nearly thirty years of running folk clubs and festivals and singarounds let me say first, it is the job of the organiser or MC to sort out disruptive elements in the audience not the singer. second don't waste your time meeting this ignorant dickhead you say he sings better than you this is probably his root problem he thinks that any one who is not his equal is his inferior and therefore beneath his notice. If he continues to do this to you tip his beer over his head. (I saw this done once before and after the chap bought another beer he came and complained to me about it, so i tipped that one over him and then threw him out). your problems behaviour is indicative of a small mind, a small talent and an over sized ego. having said all that you cannot indeed MUST NOT stop all conversation (keep it muted)this was i believe a major factor in killing off hundreds of small clubs throughout the UK. I must admit it is difficult finding a balance though. Graham (Guernsey) |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Barbara Date: 25 Sep 99 - 09:14 PM Thanks for the strong words, Graham and all; I am still thinking about all this good advice, and I'll keep you posted. I agree that suppressing all conversation is a mistake, and I find that muted or whispered conversation doesn't get to me the same way. Blessings, Barbara |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Sourdough Date: 26 Sep 99 - 12:23 AM At Winfield, on one of the small stages last week, I saw a kind of audience thoughtlessness I had never seen before. The performer was Efram (last name unknown to me) who had won the previous year's songwriting contest. He was had just finished a song backed up by two musicians when a woman appeared at the foot of the stage and engaged him in conversation. W: Where is (name of group forgotten)? They're supposed to be here at 10:30. E: I don't know. But it isn't ten thirty yet. (In fact it was ten minutes after ten) W: It certainly is ten thirty. Where are they? E: Well, if you will wait until 10:30, they'll probably be right here. W: They're suppposed to be here now. If you'd get off the stage, they'd play. At this point, the sound man stepped forward from the console, walkd over to the intruder and steered her to the side of the bleachers. I could here him saying the the group that she wanted would be starting in about twenty minutes but in the meantime they she could go sit with them. He turned her over to the group oto which she had professed such devotion. I'll bet they weren't too excited to meet their "fan". Sourdough |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Bev and Jerry Date: 26 Sep 99 - 01:58 AM Barbara:
You certainly touched a mudcat nerve with this question. We can't remember when we've seen so many thoughtful responses to a thoughtful question.
We have been in a helluva lot of singing situations with you over more years than we should probably mention here (did we hear someone mention the number twenty?). Although we can't offer any additional advice, we can be sure of the following:
1. You have never been rude to anyone while we were around.
2. You have never been disturbed by whispering or other quiet activities while you were singing.
3. We seriously doubt that he is a better singer than you are.
The obvious conclusion is that he's a jerk.
Love, Bev and Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Ana Date: 26 Sep 99 - 02:09 AM ...or another distoibing incident I'm aware of (a repitition of,that should NOT be encouraged!) - whilst a sweet sounding acappella women's group were trotting out their Irish stuff at the unexpected venue of a beer fest, a member of the next sets group came on stage. He was walking in front of them and setting up his equipment (not phallic of course). At the end of the song, the female lead told him politely and firmly, that this was not "etiquette". He then swore at and insulted her(and no doubt her mother); as she recoiled in shock, her hand some how shot out and connected with his face (gasp) he then pushed her... Well (wots a girl to do?) she kicked him! Apparently he no longer plays the basson, opting instead for the piccollo. Ironically the front row was inhabited by a motorcycle club - they chose not to become involved as the matter was clearly under control. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 26 Sep 99 - 04:19 AM Barbara, in a setting such as the one you described, with all in attendance participants in the session, anything other than silence--or appropriate singing along--is unacceptable, I would think. Even whispered conversations between other people who are going to expect you to listen to them is disrespectful, not just to you, but to those listening. As for the creep loudly ordering dinner during your song, others in the group should have picked him up and tossed him out so he could place his order in the bar. If the forty or fifty people attending the Irish sessions at the Starry Plough, many of them drunk, can (and do) maintain a respectful silence when soloists take over during the session band breaks, there is no excuse for less attention in a song circle. If the session has a leader, he or she should make that clear to everyone; if not, then a pause between songs might be time for a brief discussion of session ettiquette. --seed |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jon Freeman Date: 26 Sep 99 - 10:55 AM During our local 3 day session event, many of us will have been drinking from about 12pm until about 3am and sometimes some of us (and I am one of them) have got so drunk that we can no longer play but (I hope I'm not tempting fate here) sing 1987 when I started attending I can not rebember any trouble amongst the musicains even if some us have occasionaly had far too much we still manage to be quite and listen to others etc. There was spot of bother in this period that I missed and I believed that one was quickly sorted out. This involved a couple of people gate crashing a party (ie they had nothing to do with the music not even listening) and when the host told them that they weren't welcome, one of them took a swing. I don't know the person in quetstion but apparantly on of our visiting players from Manchester was quite handy with his fist stepped in and knocked the offender clean out with one blow! In my exeperience, the drink related problems have nearly always been caused by outsiders rather than the players. I do a semi session (any player is welcome to join in if they are brave enough) semi pub entertainment thing on a Sunday night. I am very tolerent (and in this environment customers shouting etc. is something that you expect and put up with) but this year, I have twice had to approach that landlord and got 2 people barred from the pub. One of them wanted a fight with me because I refused to do The Fields of Athenrye for the third time and the other one sat down next to me and reached accross me, picked up my pint of Guinness and started to drink it - it was not an accident. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Frank Hamilton Date: 26 Sep 99 - 11:58 AM Alcohol is the problem. People go to bars to "loosen up" which is often a euphenism for becoming obnoxious. When I played bars I selected material that could penetrate the alcoholic haze. Thoughtful ballads and story lines that required concentration on the part of the audience didn't work. Some could pull it off. Bob Gibson was a master at it. To play bars, you gotta' be there in that there's an identification taking place. You have to be in the "bar space". I don't go there so I have trouble with those scenes. When people drink, they don't want to pay attention too closely. They want to be entertained which means to me the want to laugh or be shocked in some way or have background music for their conversation which generally consists of raucous laughter and animated talk. If I play in that kind of environment, I'd prefer to be background music. It's easier. I think the pub scene is different in England and Ireland than it is in America. When I sang an American folk song in an Irish pub in Spittal, everyone listened intensely and identified with the performance. The same was true when we visited "O'Neils Ballad Lounge" to hear a group in Bundoran, it was the same experience. Drunk or no, the audience was "into it". It' probably because the people there are very close to their folk roots. I don't have any advice except that there's no worse audience than a drunken American. By in large, a gross generality I realize but we are so jaded when it comes to entertainment. Frank Hamilton |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jon Freeman Date: 26 Sep 99 - 01:00 PM Frank, I think that you have raised a good point by suggesting being close to their folk roots but I for one don't have any real folk roots. I was born in Shropshire, England (of English parents), moved to North Wales, then to the South of England before moving back to North Wales in 1978 and I don't even know where I consider to be my real home let alone folk roots. Most of the music that I enjoy playing is Celtic (and mainly Irish) dance music and I certainly can't claim any roots connections to that music. I do have a lot of feeling (or think I have) for the music though and would suggest that it is that feeling or interest that makes the difference when it comes to beeing willing to shut up and listen. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: WyoWoman Date: 26 Sep 99 - 04:50 PM My first question re. the fellow Barbara initially asked about was whether he might be hard of hearing. Sometimes people whose hearing is impaired speak very loudly and because they can't hear themselves, they think others can't. They just don't have the mechanism with which to be aware. And sometimes people who are in the initial stages of Alzheimer's or other diseases that affect the brain do inappropriate stuff like that and are quite testy about it. In any case, if it were me, I'd find out if the behavior were noticeable to others in the circle and I certainly would want some company if I were going to meet with him. And, he might just be an asshole. In that case: Give 'im no quarter. Nice, schmice. Nail 'im. Re. general etiquette for singing circles: In New Mexico, the circle I sang with worked it out so that the singer said before s/he began a song, "I'm going to do this one a capella as a solo," or, "I think I do this one in D, but please keep the guitars fairly quiet so I don't trash my voice trying to sing over you.." Or, "If you wait 'til the chorus, I think you can hear a couple of very nice harmonies to join me with..." or whatever. The point was, we stated at the beginning how we wanted to do it, and people generally honored that. The singer got to say how s/he chose to have that one song go, then the next person got to decide how her/his song would be... The downside of this is that some of the spontanaeity goes out of it, but it does keep you from feeling stepped on. And then, if you hear a great harmony that you'd love to do on someone else's song, maybe when they head to the kitchen, you can follow them and say, "Hey, I was thinking that maybe when my turn comes 'round again we could do that song over and I could do this harmony I heard with it..." I'll be very interested to hear the outcome of this situation... Good luck, ww |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Rick Fielding Date: 26 Sep 99 - 10:52 PM Frank, actually the saloon goers in Northern Ontario can give anyone a run for their money when it comes to making life miserable for a performer...the difference is though, that when you take the gig, and accept the money, you know what the rules are ahead of time. Funny thing though, as you pointed out, in Britain they're more likely to listen if they think the performance is worthwhile...and you don't get requests for Dylan, Neil Young or James Taylor. Rick |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jon Freeman Date: 27 Sep 99 - 05:44 AM I mentioned having a few problems with people on my Sunday night do. I had a first last night. I normaly rest my banjo on a chair or a table when I'm not playing but last night as there was nowhere suitable, I lay it on its case and somebody who had a lot to drink fell off their chair. Fortunately, I had got back from the bar and was able to catch the person and the table before they hit my banjo but a drink got spilled in the process and the resonator of my banjo ended up getting filled with lager and I got a little bit wet when I picked it up. I know that this was an accident but another thing I have found with most of the non playing public is that they have no respect for other peoples property (musical instruments). Value isn't the real issue but some of these instruments are also quite expensive - even my banjo which is nowhere near the most expensive one on the market currently retails at over £1200 and something that I had to wait for years to afford and hope will last me my lifetime. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Barbara Date: 27 Sep 99 - 08:15 AM Jon, someone here a while back was singing the praises of a little gimmie that clamps to the edge of the table and supports the neck of your instrument. (Of course, if the clod knocks the table over, this won't help). I can't recall the name offhand, either. I think it was someone from UK or the continent that first mentioned it. Perhaps others will remember, if you're interested. Blessings, Barbara |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Margo Date: 27 Sep 99 - 09:33 AM Barbara, you may already have solved your problem, but here's my .02. It will always be difficult to talk to someone effectively when you are upset or resentful. You may feel guilty, doubting whether you are in the right or not, but it's probably just guilt from being angry. If you can't cool down, I agree that a third party can help. Margarita |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jon Freeman Date: 27 Sep 99 - 10:27 PM Barbara, I have seen the type of clamp that you have mentioned and I think that it might me a good idea for me to invest in one - thank for the suggestion. Would you believe that this particular clod was a woman in her 50s? and that she is also somebody (as I do with the rest of her family) I consider to be a friend!!! With friends like that... Jon |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Barbara Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:20 AM ..you could start a 12 step group. |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:53 AM Barbra, pardon my ignorance but what's a 12 step group? Jon |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 28 Sep 99 - 02:17 AM Jon, the classic 12-step group is Alcoholics Anonymous: There are 12 steps to recovery. First is recognition of the problem (i.e., admitting one is an alcoholic), and so on. --seed |
|
Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots From: JedMarum Date: 29 Sep 99 - 02:06 AM when my daughter-in-law saw her first acoustic music jam session, she characterized it as a "guitar player's support group" - a pretty fair assessment! |
| Share Thread: |