Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?

Subject: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 09:39 AM

Does anyone know of any documentation or manuscript evidence for any of the "Child Ballads" in the 1700s in America? After having spent a good deal of time on looking at "The Demon Lover"/"The House Carpenter" (#243) in New England, we were not able to find any written documentation for the ballad in the Northeast prior to the Andrews/De Marsan broadside of 1858/1860. I am not aware of any written documentation for this ballad earlier than this for anywhere else in America. Here is the link for that discussion:

thread.cfm?threadid=141964&messages=153

In relation to some other research I am doing, I began to wonder about the rest of the ballads in the Child Collection. Can any of them be dated in America prior to the middle of the 1800's with any written documentation?

I realize that the commonly accepted theory for the presence of these "old ballads and love songs" in America is that for the most part they probably "came over" with the Scots-Irish, along with some of the English from certain parts of England and some from Scotland. About 200,000 Scots-Irish came to the Colonies - mostly to Philadelphia - between 1710 and 1775. Following the American Revolution, from 1783-1812, another 100,000 Scots-Irish came to America, and another half-million came between 1815 and 1845. The question is, can we document the arrival of these ballads with that first wave of immigrants, or with the second wave, or did they in fact not get here until the third wave between 1815 and 1845?

Are there records of family traditions that document the earlier arrival of these ballads? I'm thinking of places like the Beech Mountain and Sodom Laurel communities in North Carolina.

Please understand that I am not saying that these ballads did not arrive before the middle of the 1800s. I'm just wondering if we can actually document that they did in any way. Bronson does a good job of giving the historical dates for the tunes that he has collected for these ballads. I haven't begun to look at all of this material, but a very casual glance suggests that his tunes either come from an earlier period in the British Isles, or from the second half of the 1800s in America. Is there anything in between in America?

If I have somehow missed this discussion on Mudcat, please point me in the proper direction and let's not rehash it. Thanks. J.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:00 AM

In the absence of actual documentation one is thrown back on conjecture. It is hard to conceive that the ballads did not come across in all waves even starting with the Pilgrim Fathers. Off hand I can't remember actual ballads but I'm sure I remember there being some of the Child ballads found in America that have died out long ago in oral tradition this side of the pond.

You might find it useful to look at 'A Pioneer Songster' edited by Harold W. Thompson. The book is an anthology of ballads from the Stevens-Douglass Ms of Western New York, 1841-56

It has versions of Child, 45, 84, 112, 268, 283, 285, 287, 289, not the most typical of Child Ballads, but Child Ballads nevertheless.

There will be other manuscript collections. I suggest you repeat your request to the scholars on the Indiana Ballad List.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:52 AM

There is a version of Child 112 at p80 in A Sailor's Songbag by George Carey. It is from the ms of an American POW at Forton Prison near portsmouth, England, and is dated 1778. Many of the ballads here are however from British broadsides and were written down while he was in the prison so may be from British sources, or perhaps in this case from one of his fellow American prisoners.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:32 PM

Steve, thanks for calling my attention to the song in A SAILOR'S SONGBAG by George Carey. I was just looking at that book a few days ago, but I didn't have this question in my head at the time. Carey doesn't venture an opinion on whether this is from oral or written tradition or whether it came from a fellow American prisoner or from an English source. However, it does suggest that this particular ballad, #112, "The Baffled Knight", was being sung in 1778. The version in the SONGBAG does look like a sung version.

If nothing else, this collection probably made its way back to America after the war, before the turn of the century, and would thus count as a documented version in America in the 1700s. I couldn't find an exact reference in Carey as to when Connor, the prisoner who collected these songs, returned to America. It just says that he was part of a prisoner exchange on June 14, 1779, and was taken to France.   

And thanks for your other suggestions as well, Steve. I notice that "The Baffled Knight" shows up in the PIONEER SONGSTER as "Katie Mora" (p. 9). Unfortunately, the Google Books excerpt does not give very much of the book, and the only information I could get on the dating was from the subtitle "Texts of the Stevens-Douglass Manuscript of Western New York, 1841-1856." I will add this to my library search list.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:44 PM

There is evidence in the early shape note hymnals, sometimes the tune associated with particular ballads can be found, sometimes the form of the hymn parallels that of a ballad and the association is clear. See the work of George Pullen Jackson and Don Yoder, especially George Pullen Jackson: White Spirituals in the Southern Uplands (New York, Dover Publications, 1965)where chapter 15 gives a list of such correspondences. However, the earliest of these hymn books is of about 1815 (though there are arguments for assuming that some were printed previously) - this is too late for the first wave of Scotch-Irish though the areas in which they circulated coincide mainly with those of greated S-I influence.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:11 PM

John, thanks for connection with the "White Spirituals". I will definitely take a look at this. I have always been curious about the relationship of the ballads to the religious songs.

I did find a complete version of THE PIONEER SONGSTER online here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/pioneersongstert00thom#page/n5/mode/2up

It looks like 1841 is the date for the earliest part of this manuscript, but of course if these songs were being copied down at that point they were around before then. However, I couldn't find much in the way of specifics as to which ones might have been earlier or what their dates might have been.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

Another possible source is Flanders 'Ancient Ballads Traditionally sung in New England' I have a vague recollection that some of the texts come from manuscripts.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 03:11 PM

John,
It also occurs to me that Richie might be able to assist you. Take a look at his website. I'm sure he'll chip in at some point.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 04:36 PM

John, perhaps you have access to new information, but otherwise I'm very skeptical of the immigration figures you cite.

Some years ago, I came across what I believe was the original research "establishing" the immigration patterns of the Scotch-Irish to the South. It was done around 1915, in the heyday of the belief that ethnicity was a powerful determinant of group and individual character. The Scotch-Irish were thought to be especially strong, vigorous, visionary, and ready for physical challenges: the ideal "race" to clear forests, fight Indians, and dream of westward expansion. It would have been satisfying to myany patriotic researchers to show that they had contributed disproportionately to the development of the United States.

However, American immigration records of the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries give few indications of cultural identity within the UK (English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Scotch-Irish). About all that can be recovered with any degree of reliability are personal names and ports of embarkation.

In an obvious effort to bulk up Scotch-Irish immigration to America, the investigator (I wish I could remember his name) counted all UK immigrants, regardless of port of embarkation, *who had Scotch-Irish surnames.* And he included, as Scotch-Irish, names known in Ulster that were *also* distributed elsewhere in the British Isles!

And voila! A preponderance of Scotch-Irish immigrants to tame the wild frontier!

The idea that the Scotch-Irish made up the great majority of early settlers in Appalachia is evidently a myth. The truth seems to be that they were the largest white, non-English minority.

Which isn't to say they didn't have Child ballads. But the earliest printed reference to one in America that I can recall seeing is "The Mermaid," from around 1850.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 05:56 PM

Hi Lighter, always good to hear from you. My information came from the Wikipedia. I very much appreciate your corrections on that. I have certainly come across some of what you are talking about in both old and quite recent accounts of the Scots-Irish. I am also aware that there were a lot of Germans coming into the Port of Philadelphia at the same time that the Scots-Irish were arriving. Since about WWI, their presence has been down-played somewhat in the development of the "upper South" and Southern Appalachian regions.

I'm just wondering if there is any print documentation for an early importation of the "Child" ballads. I approach this question with a good deal of skepticism. But maybe there are some family accounts out there, or smaller collections like the Western NY one mentioned above that have some early references. The question is have they been noticed by anyone enough to get into the discussion. I was amazed to find the "Sarah Willard" manuscript copy of "The House Carpenter" on the TAUNY (Traditional Adirondack Music) website, which is a handwritten copy of "The House Carpenter" dated April 18, 1869, and no discussion of it anywhere. Here is the link:

http://woods.tauny.org/images_start.php?gal=gallery/sub5/&img=48

Do you know if anyone has actually done a study on the early dating of these ballads in America?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 06:33 PM

Child Ballads as opposed to broadside ballads (I know a lot of the Child Ballads appeared on broadsides)should be easier to study and come up with some general conclusions, which is one reason why Richie's collection may prove valuable. What I'm proposing can only be useful in very general terms and can't be actual proof, but if multiple US versions of a ballad differ significantly from their British counterparts it shows they have been in oral tradition in America for a significant period of time. The more and varied the differences the longer they are likely to have been in oral tradition there. An extra factor that would need adding in is the interference of broadside and literary versions, and indeed forgeries. Literary and forged versions can easily and quickly slip into oral tradition. I base my theories on my studies of broadside ballads over a long period. Those, generally speaking, that vary the most are the earlier ones like The Gosport Tragedy. What must be factored in here of course is the influence of intermediate printed texts.

You mention Bronson. I can't imagine Bronson being any use here as of course he was only dealing with texts with tunes and as far as I know, prior to Sharp there weren't any American collections that gave tunes, although Child himself may have had some.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:38 PM

FWIW, Ron Byrnside wrote an entire book on "Music in Eighteenth Century Georgia" (U. Ga. Press, 1997), in which he could only assume that the early settlers sang ballads like "Barbara Allen." The contemporary references just weren't there.

This sort of thing makes me wonder. Could it be, Steve, that most of the American popularity of Child ballads came from some sort of latterly unnoticed "broadside/songster revival" from around 1830?

Just thinking out loud.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:43 PM

I researched the topic of the Scotch Irish, and the songs they might have carried and deposited in the Southern Mountains, exhaustively about 10 years ago and am to give a presentation on it in Atlanta at the end of next month (with some need to update my knowledge - and quickly!) I too have reservations about the emigration figures - they may be anything between 100,000 and 200,000 for the period 1715 - 1775, curiously, exhaustive research on entry from the north of Ireland through the Delaware ports shows considerably less activity than was previously argued. The most recent conspectus is probably Brian Lambkin and Patrick Fitzgerald <> (Palgrave MacMillan, 2008)- they summarise a considerable range of sources.

If you want to discuss this further, it might be best to go private since it could get quite academic. jmoul81075(at)aol.com - for (at) read @.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:49 PM

I'm sure Nathaniel Coverley and Deeming of Boston printed some of them. John might care to check out the Thompson Collection and those in the LoC. Some definitely appeared in those little dime songsters printed by the likes of Nafis. But then, as in Britain, there was a healthy interchange between cheap print and oral tradition.

Such an investigation would certainly enhance Richie's website.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:50 PM

John, even though Wiki cites a Harvard publication, you'll notice that what it says squares with what I wrote. The estimates are based on inferences from surnames rather than on direct evidence:

"The ancestry of the 3,929,326 million population in 1790 has been estimated by various sources by sampling last names in the 1790 census and assigning them a country of origin. According to the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups (Thernstrom, S 1980, 'Irish,' p. 528), there were 400,000 Americans of Irish birth or ancestry in 1790; half of these were descended from Ulster, and half were descended from the other provinces of Ireland."

And how culturally significant is "Irish ancestry" - much less Scotch-Irish - when all there is to go on is a surname? If one parent is Irish and another English, Scottish, or Welsh, which category fits?

Wiki's source is dated 1980. I read about the sampling bias in the late '90s. Wish I could remember where. (Some big red book with lots of demographic articles. Maybe it'll come to me.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:52 AM

Wiki on 'Appalachia':

"An estimated 90% of Appalachia's earliest European settlers originated from the Anglo-Scottish border country— namely the English counties of Cumberland, Westmoreland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancashire, and Yorkshire, and the Lowland Scottish counties of Ayrshire, Dumfriesshire, Roxburghshire, Berwickshire, and Wigtownshire. Most of these were from families who had been resettled in the Ulster Plantation in northern Ireland in the 17th century."

Wiki's source is D. Newhall, Encyclopedia of Appalachia (Knoxville, Tenn.: University of Tennessee Press, 2006), pp. 253-255.

You might want to dispute that 90% figure, but what interests me is that the term 'Scotch-Irish' clearly includes many migrants with English ancestry, from 'Border' counties as far South as lancashire and Yorkshire.

Sharp's Appalachian collection is full of singers' names of apparently English origin, although - at first glance at least - many of the common ballads in it (Earl Brand, Young Hunting, House Carpenter etc.) seem to be ones with a more vigorous history in Scotland.

Talking of Earl Brand (and realising that some knowledgable people are participating here) can anyone expalin to me why the English versions of The Lady and the Dragoon are catalogued under that title (Roud 23, Child 7), whereas the American ones are not (Round 321)? I only noticed that a minute ago.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 12:40 PM

Most interesting, John and Brian. Perhaps it would be good to rename the "Scotch-Irish" and the "Ulster Scots" the "Anglo-Celts."

But I don't see it catching on.

Another point: even actual Ultonian immigrants could have been "Irish" for only a generation. Any Irish culture they might have absorbed in that time would have been quite minimal. (I'm inclined to believe that it would have been minimal for longer than that: the native Irish were not exactly held up as role models.)

And "ethnically" (i.e., "racially"), which is what much of the whole "Scotch-Irish" subject is about, the discussion is meaningless. The "Scotch-Irish" are at best a subculture of the broader English-speaking culture. They're obviously not a "race" in any non-poetic sense of the word. Even if they were, folk music is not carried by the genes.

As I've suggested, much of "Scotch-Irish" theory is based on nineteenth-century romanticism, which in the USA was an intellectual force well into the 1920s. (If you listen to the Republican candidates, you'll see that it's never gone away completely.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 01:14 PM

I am appreciating all of this good response and I'm seeing that the "Scots (Scotch)/Irish" business is complicated. Let me back up a bit. My primary interest is trying to establish whether or not there is any documentation for any of the so-called "Child" ballads in America in the 1700s. A secondary question would be "can they be documented prior to the American Revolution in America?" Or did they come after the Revolution was over? Can we document them prior to the 19th century?

I've been looking at one particular geographical area known for its ballad singers, documented by George Foss, and located along the eastern face of the Blue Ridge Mountains west of Charlottesville in Viriginia. Here is the link:

http://www.klein-shiflett.com/shifletfamily/HHI/GeorgeFoss/whall.html?

This is called "From White Hall to Bacon Hollow" and is a fascinating account of these folks, much of it in their own words. There is some genealogy material here in relation to ballad singing, but none of it really goes back before the 19th century.

John Moulden, I'd be very interested to know what kind of conclusions you were able to make in your research on "the Scotch Irish, and the songs they might have carried and deposited in the Southern Mountains".

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:42 PM

John
I see your dilemma and wish you luck in finding evidence. If that evidence is not forthcoming you might want to fall back on probabilities. If we are to believe the collectors and Child, c1800 the ballads were very much alive in Scotland at that time, even allowing for a substantial percentage of forgeries and literary interference. It is therefore extremely likely that any waves of migrants from Scotland and N Ireland/Sc would have a store of ballads in their heads, and using the old 'Scots abroad' maxim they would have been very keen to keep these artefacts alive.

Brian,
I have posted on Mudcat before my feelings on Earl Brand and the Bold Dragoon. They simply have a couple of lines in common and no other relationship. The desire to connect the two, somewhat ironically in light of what you say, was due to American collectors in the first half of the 20th century being desirous of including Child ballads in their collections and grasping at straws. I have mentioned this to Steve and I can't remember what he did about it. I have an up-to-date Access spreadsheet of the Index but unfortunately haven't currently got Access on my new computer. I'll be seeing Steve tomorrow night when he gets his EFDSS Gold Badge and will ask him to check. Certainly The Bold Dragoon and Earl Brand should have separate numbers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:44 PM

John Minear, Please email me for my conclusions - address above

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 06:02 PM

John Minear,
Another approach would be to look at a collection such as Sharp/Campbell, selecting examples of ballads that have distict Scottish and English variants back in England. This could easily be done using Child. Then look at how distinct American versions have evolved and in this way draw up some conclusions as to how long they have likely been in oral tradition in these distinct forms. It could then be followed up by selecting versions of the same ballads in other American collections like Flanders. It wouldn't necessarily give any concrete proof but would possibly make good circumstantial evidence. Try, for instance The Cruel Mother, a ballad that seemingly originated on a London broadside but evolved into distinct versions in England, Scotland and Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 06:50 PM

Brian
All of the 'Bold Dragoons' should be under 321. How old is your version of Roud? I'll check the online version. If there aren't a lot in the wrong number it would be helpful to list them using the S numbers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:22 PM

Re: taking this discussion private, I'll be very happy if you keep it going here. I'm sure there are others who, like me, enjoy following this kind of thread even if we can't add to it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:09 AM

Brian
I've had a quick flick through online and yes there are about half a dozen versions out of 223 that have slipped through the net. I'll tell Steve tonight.

The Roud Index, as you know, is a work in progress, and we would appreciate it if anyone comes across an error to either contact Steve or myself as soon as poss and we'll investigate and correct.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:10 AM

Brian
I should of course add thanks for pointing this out.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:11 AM

Hi,

There are several versions I've come across that go back to the 1700s if you assume the informant's information is correct- ie they learned it from their gramdmother who learned it from her mother. The dates of the ancestors can be traced through geneology records.

Finding written (published or printed) documentation is tough.

Check out Gale Huntington, Songs the Whalemen Sang (1964). I know The Turkish Lady, (an offshoot of Young Beichan/Lord Bateman) was known in 1768, when it was transcribed into the journal of the whaling ship Two Brothers.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:16 AM

By the way Steve I've found some corrections for the Roud Index; can't remember them all now.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:17 AM

Here is one of those rather large questions. Without reading all of the fine print, does somebody already know how many of the "Child" ballads are actually documented by/in Child himself as having been around in the 1800s? In taking a very casual and brief look at Richie's site last night, I kept coming up with dates in the 19th century. If I had a quick and easy list of those ballads that we know were documented in England, Scotland or Ireland in the 1700s, we could at least narrow down the list for what to look for over here in America.

This is not to say that it's not possible for an "earlier" version of a ballad to have survived in the "oral tradition" and gotten over to America before it showed up in print in England, etc. That would be an interesting find!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:37 AM

John - have a look at Greg Lindahl's Child Ballads page, where he lists the Child ballads with early sources.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 08:51 AM

"I've had a quick flick through online and yes there are about half a dozen versions out of 223 that have slipped through the net."

Happy to be of service. The Roud index is such a monumental undertaking that the only way the glitches are going to be discovered is when a researcher is looking at the fine detail.

The reason I was looking at 'Earl Brand' in detail was to follow the line of research suggested by Steve G, "to look at a collection such as Sharp/Campbell, selecting examples of ballads that have distict Scottish and English variants back in England."

If we exclude 'The Dragoon and the Lady' (and I quite agree that we should), that leaves only two copies from England: the White/Bell one from Northumberland (Child 7A - there are several alternative texts but it's basically the same piece) and the fragment from Percy (Child 7F). Neither of these seem to have any siginificant material in common with the various North American texts listed in Bronson (which of course includes Campbell and Sharp).

By contrast, there is plenty of of overlap between the American copies and the various Scots 'Douglas Tragedy' versions from Scott, Motherwell, Greig-Duncan, etc. The key lines in common (allowing for minor variation) are:

'Rise [wake] up you seven brothers [sleepers]'
(the following '...and put on your armour so bright' survives only occasionally).

'Light down, light down, lady Margaret he said
And hold my steed in your hand [for a while]
While I go and fight your seven brothers
And your father I make a stand [standing nigh, etc]'

'Hold your hand Lord William, she said
For your strokes are wondrous sore
True lovers i can get many a one
But a father I'll never get more'

'He's mounted her on a milk-white steed
Himself on a dapple grey
With a bugle [buckler] hanging by his side
And slowly [bleeding] they [he] rode away'

There are also verses in which she has to choose between family and lover, and in which she mops her father's blood, that keep cropping up on both sides of the ocean. The few versions from the Canadian Maritimes seem to be closer to the Scots than are the Appalachian versions. There's also a little clutch of Appalachian variants in which new details are added - Margaret's father's head falls at her feet in the battle, and a formulaic verse about the cock / chickens crowing (to establish a timeframe) is sometimes added. It would be neat to report that these versions all came from the Alleghany Mountains area around Allenstand, White Rock and Hot Springs (where Sharp and Karpeles began their collecting), but unfortunately there's a rogue variant collected by Olive Campbell in Georgia that has both elements.

I would conclude from the above that 'Earl Brand' almost certainly arrived in North America from Scotland, but that it was subject to subsequent oral veriation (the names get changed and so forth). Whether the father's rolling head and the crowing chickens suggest interpolations in a printed copy is something we can speculate about!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 09:17 AM

Richie, thanks for the Huntington reference. I really appreciate the huge job of fine work that you are doing gathering up all of this information. Anything else you come across from the 1700's would be welcome.

Mick, thanks for the reference to Lindahl. That looks very helpful. And I am interested in the tunes!

And Brian, thanks for the discussion on "Earl Brand". It occurs to me, without having looked at the specifics in Sharp's collection, that North Georgia is not so very far away from Madison County NC, [about a three week hike on the Appalachian Trail] and that sometimes there were family migrations that took place. For instance, Sam Harmon, who settled in Cades Cove, Tennessee, near Maryville, came from Beech Mountain, NC, and his music is definitely connected to the Beech Mountain history [see the work of Frank & Ann Warner, and Sandy Paton]. The same is true of Jane Gentry in Hot Springs, NC, who was also from the Beech Mountain area and was related to Sam Harmon. Long ago, I had some discussion of this on the "Wild Boar" thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=50640

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 09:55 AM

You might also look at Coffin: British Traditional Ballads in North America, where he discusses the main variants of the ballads found in America.

I did a quick skim through the other day, but as far as I can see there's nothing about early US printed sources. (Though under The Hunting of the Cheviot he does give an anecdote that refers to a publication of 1788 where a boy mentions the name Chevy Chase as some soldiers are riding through to the tune of Yankee Doodle: The history of the rise, progress, and establishment of the United States of America - Gordon, 1788, p481).

It's also possible, from something I read in Coffin, that Barry British Ballads from Maine might have something to say on early versions in the US. But I'm not clear enough and I don't have a copy. (Richie's site has info on Barry and some articles I think).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 08:22 AM

Mick, thanks for the "Chevy Chase" reference. Is it possible that this reference is to a fiddle or fife tune instead of the ballad?

Also, everyone, what is the latest and most comprehensive listing of all of the different "Child" ballads that have been found in North America? Does someone have this handy?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 08:49 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 09:00 AM

Here's the lastest list from 1950 by Coffin: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/a-critical-biographical-study.aspx

I haven't finished proofing this page yet. There are a couple missing, for example 52. King's Dochter Lady Jean

The only known traditional US version of this ballad titled "Queen Jane" was sung by Sara Cleveland. It was recorded by Sandy Patton in the early 1960s.

I think published an updated edition later. Reed Smith did some early lists.

I've only made it to No. 63. It seems that most of the ballads so far date back to the 1700's in Scotland/England.

The most likely sources of 1700s Child ballads in the US would seem to be old periodicals, newspapers, diaries, and family histories. New bits of information will pop up from time to time- you have to realize that ballad scholars and those interested in ballads have been looking for this information already- and it seems to be lacking.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 09:19 AM

John

Since the boy in the story was listening to them ride by I presume it was the tune he recognised. It was used for other songs but at least he recognised it by the Chevy Chase title.


I had a quick look for a current list of Child Ballads found in America without success (though you'd imagine someone had made one; perhaps someone on the ballad list is keeping track). You could start with Coffin - he goes through them and (as far as I remember) lists the ones not found at the time (1950). You could start from there and try and see if any of the missing ones had been found since. (eg Child Ballads in Max Hunter. These were collected between 56 and 76 so could have found some missing in Coffin).

(You can find a copy of Coffin at archive.org: The British Traditional Ballad in North America).


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 12:22 PM

Richie, thanks for the update on your work, and for Coffin's list (actually Coffin's discussion as well!). And thanks for the suggestions on where to look.

And Mick, thanks for reminding me about the Max Hunter collection. I have Coffin in several varieties and recognize him as a baseline for the middle of the last century (can you believe that! - it used to be that "the middle of the last century" referred to 1850 and not 1950!). I was hoping for an update. I think Bronson would at least update the list through the 1960's but that still leaves us in the middle of the last century.

I can start by comparing Coffin and Lindahl. Let me say, that I am not particular about whether or not a particular ballad "came over with the Scots-Irish" or with somebody else. In our discussion of "The Demon Lover"/"The House Carpenter" in the Northeast, we came across some suggestions about Scottish (not "Scots-Irish") influence on this ballad in North America, possibly prior to the broadside publication in 1858-60 by De Marsan. The suggestion was that it might have come over with the Scottish tobacco traders to the coastal ports and then later to the more inland tobacco trading posts.

In any case, I don't care how a ballad got here or who brought it. I'm just interested at this point in what might have been here before 1800, and especially before 1775 and the American Revolution.   Of course any specific additional information is always welcome.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 01:14 PM

There are also some American versions in the online Lomax collection: Lomax - Child Ballads (though many are from the UK).


I also did a quick search on the Roud index for Place:USA and Other Number:Child. It returned 8414 entries. This was using the online copy at VWML. If you give me a bit of time, I'll try and run a better search on my own copy (it's not been updated recently, so there probably won't be as many entries), and I should be able to get some idea of the count for each and maybe first and last dates available in the index.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 04:35 PM

I've done a quick search on my copy of the Roud database. I've got 483 entries from the USA with a given date > 1950. The latest in my copy is 1986. As we've noted before, this probably includes duplicate entries. If you'd like a list I can probably make one (though not today!). As I mentioned above, my copy of the index is about 10 years old, so there may well be later entries. (It would be nice if the online VWML copy allowed date range searches rather than a single value. I did try putting in >1950, but got 1950 entries; Derek if you're reading, there's a suggestion!).


As far as the earliest sources, my copy yielded the following:

The earliest is 1790c - Chevy Chase, and is tune only, Bronson 10th tune for it.

The next is 1795 and is one of the 3 songs from the log of the Joseph Francis from Huntington - The Knight and the Shepherd's Daughter.

After that you're up to 1823.


Btw, the Roud index doesn't classify the 1768 Turkish Lady (also from Huntington, mentioned above by Richie) as a Child ballad.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 06:11 PM

Mick, thanks very much for that research. So, can anybody add anymore documented "Child' ballads found in America before 1800?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:08 PM

John, Richie,
3rd time I've made this suggestion but the people best placed to answer your queries are on the Indiana Ballad List. They've been studying these things for a long time and have access to a lot more than we have on this side of the pond.

Brian, I saw Steve on Thursday and he has corrected the online site regarding the misplaced 'Lady and Dragoons' now. He sends his thanks.

Richie, if you find any errors please PM me with them and I'll pass them on, or of course contact Steve direct. He would be glad to correct any errors.

I've now got a working scanner so let me know if you want any Flanders versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 11:15 AM

Steve, I appreciate your suggestion that the Indiana Ballad List serve might be able to help answer some of these questions. I have not followed up on this yet for several reasons. I think I assumed, perhaps falsely, that the information I was looking for here was straightforward and probably fairly common knowledge by now, at least in those circles which have continued to have serious interest in the "Child" ballads. And I suppose that I have been spoiled by all of the wonderful access to obscure information now being provided on the internet by things like Google and Google Books. So, I did not really expect this to be a complicated query. And, I know from past experience that there are certainly folks on Mudcat that are familiar in some depth with these kinds of concerns. I prefer to explore these issues in this somewhat more accessible venue with a broader base than what one finds on an academic list service. I should say that I am not an academic and that I make no claims to being any kind of scholar when it comes to ballads. And I would also say that while I've never joined the ballad list service, I have listened in on this discussion occasionally and I have not always been excited by the results of academic conversations. I would also assume that there are folks here on Mudcat who also are a part of the Indiana Ballad List, and that if they happened to see this thread and were aware of useful information from that other venue, they would have perhaps made that available here.

But maybe my assumptions are not very accurate. I do know that there are people on Mudcat that can address these kinds of questions as well as anybody anywhere else can. Whether or not they have noticed this thread or are interested in participating in this discussion is another matter.

I have basically asked three questions so far, which I would assume are basic to any study of the so-called "Child" ballads in America:

1. Can any of these ballads be documented as being present in America in the 18th century (1700s), and especially can any of them be documented as being here in America prior to 1775 and the beginning of the American Revolution?

2. Which of the Child ballads have been documented in the Child Collection itself as having been around in England, Scotland and/or Ireland in the 1700s?

3. And, what is the "latest" available tally on Child Ballads that have been found in America, other than contemporary "covers" that have been recorded of these songs? Is there anything more recent than Coffin's study and it's update?

I had assumed that there would be obvious listings for these latter two questions and that someone would surely have conveniently published them online somewhere and they would be easily accessible. I am still hoping that this is the case. I don't want to have to, and I am certainly not expecting anyone else to, go through the Child Canon and read the fine print and pull out all of the examples of ballads collected in the 1700s. That's a lot of work and I had assumed that it had already been done. If not, why not? Is that time frame not an important one?

And I am fairly certain that there must be updated lists of all known Child ballads found in America. I may even have them in my own printed files. I was being internet lazy on this one and hoping someone could more or less instantly produce such a list. I know there have been some regional studies, but are there recent studies that include all of North America in a more comprehensive assessment? Have there been any significant discoveries of additional ballads in the last fifty years? And have there been significant critical revisions of earlier discoveries, such as any number of those examples that show up in the John Jacob Niles' collection?

Maybe no one has actually tabulated the documentation for the existence of these ballads in 18th century America. Again, if not, why not? Is this not important information? Once again, I know that just because there is no written evidence that this does not conclusively prove that something didn't exist. But I also know that we can't get anywhere these days in a discussion of this material without some kind of written documentation. We can make general assumptions that probably should and maybe do hold true, but when we build arguments on this basis we float off into thin air fairly quickly. For now, if I can't actually document the presence of a particular ballad in North America in the 1700's before the American Revolution from the historical literature, I am going to have to assume that it probably, for all practical purposes, simply was not here.

I really don't want to get into all of the very difficult debates about "oral" and "written" traditions. I am aware of how complicated this discussion is in a number of different areas and disciplines. I would be happy with some written and datable documentation of anecdotal family or community oral traditions. But at some point, even this needs to be written down. I don't have the capacity to go and personally interview survivors of such oral traditions. And when I have had the opportunity to talk to such folks, I find that I am on fairly thin ice almost immediately. Oral traditions seem to remain "oral" for reasons of political, religious or personal control. To keep something exclusively oral today is perhaps to do so for exclusionary purposes. You see, how murky this gets almost immediately when I try to discuss it at all. I am not proposing discussions in this direction. I'm simply looking for some straightforward historical, factual data, on what's available at this point.

It may also be the case that I don't know how to conduct data searches on existing websites where this kind of information might be found. I have checked out all of the websites suggested but have not found a way to gather the data other than one bit at a time. I would welcome suggestions here.

If these things that I have inquired about above are not readily at hand, that's good to know, and at some point the work will yet be done. I'm not going to have the time to do that work myself at this point, nor am I asking anyone else to do it. I will continue to wonder why it hasn't been done by now.

And if not on Mudcat, why not?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:13 PM

I wanted to add say that I found the lists by Lindahl very helpful for pre-18th century ballads in the Child Collection, and also the article by Dani Zweig on "Early Child Ballads". Here is Lindahl's information as posted above by Mick Pearce:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/child.html

As well as Lindahl's "Sixteenth Century Ballads: A work in progress" :

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/

And here is the article by Dani Zweig, with some very helpful information about Child ballads in the 18th century:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/early_child/#partii

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:20 PM

Even in academia, few people know anything about more than the handful of "classic" Child ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:37 PM

And they don't know much about them either. It's a very narrow and specialized field.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:39 PM

You're absolutely right, Jonathan, but the academics are more likely to know what is available than the rest of us. I'm no academic, but I've been made very welcome on the Indiana List, which is why I've suggested it. Not everyone on the list is a folk academic.

I'm sure Brian will tell you there are very few academic and non-academic people in Britain with even a rough working knowledge of the Child Ballads. Off the top of my head the only institution in Britain I can think of that has academics attached who are involved in Child Ballad research is The Elphinstone Institute at Aberdeen University. Yes, there are a few other solitary academics out there but they are few and far between. There are I would say, as one would expect, many more in America, and possibly even more on the Continent.

Thanks for the links, John. I share your interest in early versions. Most of the Child Ballads were around before 1800, at least on broadsides if not in manuscript collections. Those that weren't are generally around the later numbers 241 onwards and Child knew that many of these were of dubious lineage/origin.

The answer to 2 can be largely gleaned from Child's ESPB itself.

And 3 is currently being worked on by the OP of this thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:01 PM

Steve, I wasn't criticizing academics - merely emphasizing how hard it is to find comprehensive knowledge of the subject of Child ballads.

When I started college back in the Neolithic, it seemed as though the study of English-language folklore and folksong was becoming an notable field in the liberal arts.

Since then, academic interest appears to have declined sharply, though obviously it hasn't disappeared entirely, at least in the U.S.   (The songs and lore of other cultures is much more actively studied, as always, but under the heading of anthropology.)

Have you noticed how few people, academics included, actually post to the Ballad Forum List? Undoubtedly there are many more lurkers, and some of the leading experts are probably too busy to post, but the fact seems to be that ballad knowledge generally is surprisingly rare.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:22 PM

Jonathan,
I know you weren't criticising academics, and I didn't mean to imply that you were. I don't know any of the American posters on Ballad List personally so I'm not fully aware who is and who isn't an academic there, although going by the depth of knowledge I presume most of them are.

In the last 50 years this side of the pond we have had university departments that majored on folk material, but Child Ballads have not really featured in these. As I said the only one I can think of currently entertaining anyone with Child Ballad knowledge is Aberdeen, and even then it's mainly academics like Tom McKean, Emily Lyle, David Atkinson and Julia Bishop working in association on such as publishing and the Carpenter Collection.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:13 PM

Going back to Child, himself, here is what I have found from the 18th century in Volume 1:


RIDDLES WISELY EXPOUNDED—A
d. Pills to Purge Melancholy, iv, 130, ed. 1719.

THE ELFIN KNIGHT—A
A broadside in black letter, "printed, I suppose," says Pinkerton, "about 1670," bound up with five other pieces at the end of a copy of Blind Harry's 'Wallace,' Edin. 1673, in the Pepysian Library.

WILLIE'S LADY—A
a. A copy, by Miss Mary Fraser Tytler, of a transcript made by her grandfather from William Tytler's manuscript. b. Jamieson-Brown MS., No 15, fol. 33. [from Mrs Brown in 1783]

ERLINTON—C
Gutch's Robin Hood, ii, 345, from a MS. of Mr. Payne Collier's, supposed to have been written about 1650.

THE FAIR FLOWER OF NORTHUMBERLAND—A
a. Deloney's Pleasant History of John Winchcomb, 9th ed., London, 1633, reprinted by Halliwell, p. 61. b. Ritson's Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 169.

THE TWA SISTERS—A
A. a. Broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591. b. Wit Restor'd, 1658, "p. 51," p. 153 of the reprint of 1817. c. Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87, = Dryden's Miscellany, Part 3, p. 316, ed. 1716. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315.
THE TWA SISTERS—B
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 39. b. Wm. Tytler's Brown MS., No 15. c. Abbotsford MS., "Scottish Songs," fol. 21. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48. [Brown 1783]
THE TWA SISTERS-Y
Communicated to Percy, april 7, 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent: "taken down from the mouth of the spinning-wheel, if I may be allowed the expression."

THE CRUEL BROTHER—G
a. Herd's MSS, i, 41. b. Herd's Scottish Songs, 1776, i, 88.

LORD RANDAL—A
From a small manuscript volume lent me by Mr William Macmath, of Edinburgh, containing four pieces written in or about 1710, and this ballad in a later hand. Charles Mackie, August, 1808, is scratched upon the binding.
LORD RANDALL-S
Communicated to Percy by Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent, April 19, 1775; taken down by a friend of Mr Parsons "from the spinning-wheel, in Suffolk."

EDWARD—B
Percy's Reliques, 1765, i, 53. Communicated by Sir David Dalrymple.

BABYLON; OR, THE BONNIE BANKS O FORDIE—B
Herd's MSS, i, 38, ii, 76. b. The Scots Magazine, Oct., 1803, p. 699, communicated by Jamieson, and evidently from Herd's copy. [Child: "B a is from tradition of the latter half of the eighteenth century; the other copies from the earlier part of this."]

SIR LIONEL—A
Percy MS., p. 32, Hales and Furnivall, i, 75. [1765, 1794]

THE CRUEL MOTHER—A
Herd's MSS, i, 132, ii, 191: Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, ii, 237.
THE CRUEL MOTHER—B
Johnson's Museum, p. 331. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, 1803, iii, 259, preface. [Child: "Two fragments of this ballad, A, B, were printed in the last quarter of the eighteenth century;..."]

THE MAID AND THE PALMER—A
Percy MS., p. 461. Furnivall, iv, 96.

ST. STEPHEN AND HEROD
Sloane MS., 2593, fol. 22 b, British Museum. [15th century] Child says: Ritson gave the piece as 'A Carol for St Stephen's Day,' in Ancient Songs, 1790, p. 83,..."

JUDAS
MS. B. 14, 39, of the thirteenth century, library of Trinity College, Cambridge, as printed in Wright & Halliwell's Reliquiæ Antiquæ, i, 144.

THE THREE RAVENS
a. Melismata. Musicall Phansies. Fitting the Court, Cittie, and Countrey Humours. London, 1611, No 22. [T. Ravenscroft.] Child says: "printed by Ritson, in his Ancient Songs, 1790,...."

BURD ELLEN AND YOUNG TAMLANE
Maidment's North Countrie Garland, 1824, p. 21. Communicated by R. Pitcairn, "from the recitation of a female relative, who had heard it frequently sung in her childhood," about sixty years before the above date. [1764]

THE BOY AND THE MANTLE
Percy MS., p. 284: Hales and Furnivall, II, 304.

KING ARTHUR AND KING CORNWALL
Percy MS., p. 24. Hales and Furnivall, I, 61; Madden's Syr Gawayne, p. 275.

THE MARRIAGE OF SIR GAWAIN
Percy MS., p. 46. Hales & Furnivall, I, 105; Madden's Syr Gawayne, p. 288; Percy's Reliques, ed. 1794, III, 350.

KING HENRY
The Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 31. b. Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, 1802, II, 132.

KEMP OWYNE—B
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 29. b. Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 93, 1802, from William Tytler's Brown MS., No 9, "with corrections from a recited fragment."

THE LAIDLEY WORM OF SPINDLESTON HEUGHS
A View of Northumberland, by W. Hutchinson, Anno 1776

ALLISON GROSS
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 40.

THOMAS RYMER—A
Alexander Fraser Tytler's Brown MS., No 1: Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 7.
THOMAS RYMER—C
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, II, 251, ed. 1802. [Child says: "A is one of the nine ballads transmitted to Alexander Fraser Tytler by Mrs Brown in April, 1800, as written down from her recollection."]

THE WEE WEE MAN—A
Herd's MSS, I, 153, Herd's Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 1776, I, 95.

TAM LIN—A
Johnson's Museum, p. 423, [1792] No 411. Communicated by Robert Burns.
TAM LIN—B
Glenriddell's MSS, vol. xi, No 17. [1791]
TAM LIN—C
Herd, The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 300.

CLERK COLVILL—A
From a transcript from William Tytler's Brown MS.
CLERK COLVILL—B
Herd's Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 302: ed. 1776, I, 161.

KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—A
Percy MS., p. 184. Hales and Furnivall, I, 508.
KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—B
Broadside, printed for P. Brooksby, at the Golden Ball in Pye-corner (1672-95).

CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—A
a. Herd's MS., I, 161. b. The same, II, 100.
CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP—B
Kinloch MSS, I, 83, from Mary Barr's recitation. b. Lord Roslin's Daughter's Garland. c. Buchan's MSS, II, 34. d. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 159. e. Harris MS., fol. 19 b, No 14, from Mrs Harris's recitation. f. Notes and Queries, 2d S., IV, 170, "as sung among the peasantry of the Mearns," 1857. [from Child: "Jamieson writes to the Scots Magazine, 1803, p. 701: " Of this ballad I have got one whle copy and part of another, and I remember a good deal of it as I have heard it sung in Morayshire when I was a child."]

? PROUD LADY MARGARET—A
Scott's Minstrelsy, III, 275, ed. 1803. Communicated "by Mr Hamilton, music-seller, Edinburgh, with whose mother it had been a favorite."

YOUNG ANDREW
Percy MS., p. 292. Hales and Furnivall, II, 328.

THE BONNY HIND
Herd's MSS, II, fol. 65. "Copied from the mouth of a milkmaid, by W. L, in 1771."

YOUNG BEICHAN—A
Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 13. [Child says: "Mr. Macmath has ascertained that Mrs Brown was born in 1747. She learned most of her ballads before she was twelve years old, or before 1759. 1783, or a little earlier, is the date when these copies were taken down from her singing or recitation."]
YOUNG BEICHAN—B
Glenriddell MSS, XI, 80. [1791]
YOUNG BEICHAN—C
a. Jamieson-Brown MS., fol. 11, [c. 1783] b. Jamieson's Popular Ballads, II, 127.

Please feel free to help me correct any mistakes that you might find.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in 18th c. America?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:23 PM

The THE ELFIN KNIGHT—A, ERLINTON—C, THE TWA SISTERS—A, JUDAS, and KING JOHN AND THE BISHOP—B all come from an earlier period and are not actually attested to in the 18th century. They were around, but were they known or buried in a manuscript somewhere? Some of the earliest versions don't seem to have been actually "discovered" until the 19th century. I would choose not to count these five versions in the 18th century, which means that we don't have documentation for "The Elfin Knight" or "Judas" as actually being known in the 1700s.