Miley Cyrus

Subject: Miley Cyrus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:08 PM

OK, puzzled here.

Don't people understand that pop and rock music is about sex?

That being so, what is upsetting people?

I see proclamations of Xtianity - shit they did that about Presley.

I see worries about the sexuality of her performance - they did that about Presley too.

I see stuff about twerking - well, apart from the issue of whether ipse dixit it is about electrically induced reactions, have people not watched African dance or Jamaican dancehall?

What is it with the right =- and particularly the USAian fundagelical right?

Women are sexual beings (as are men) and have the same liberty as men to sexual display.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:13 PM

I think a lot of it stems from the fact that she used to be a "Disney Kid" on a squeaky clean show for young girls. And they don't want to see her change.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:17 PM

grooming of our children, Richard, for a start...

It was the most vile and disgusting charade of non-talent I've ever seen..and if that's all she can offer she should walk off into the sunset now...

Geezus!!!! SO many INCREDIBLY talented musicians who get NO recognition at all and yet this appalling semi-pornographic farce has become world-famous?????

Truly, if this is where we are going, as a species, it's time for all of us to start appearing in Mudcat's Obit Threads, as in, the entire human species, because we are so fucked up now that truly, it's time to retire, as gracefully as we can...

Give me Audrey Hepburn any day...and the sooner we go back to those days, the better!

YEESH!!

And let's examine the folks BEHIND this revolting spectacle, shall we? And ask their motives, other than to make her infamous for being such a prat....

Miley Cyrus embarrassing the Human Race....Beam us up, Scottie!

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:18 PM

Desperation breeds contempt. I think that's it. She's just trying waaaaay too hard.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:26 PM

I suspect she's doing exactly what her handlers want her to do...thus gaining great notoriety...which makes money for whoever is sponsoring her.

In any case, I haven't been interested enough to even watch that video, despite the fact that it's there on the Youtube page every time I open it. Nothing about it that attracts my interest. I watch videos of music I like and find interesting, and I don't think I've ever watched one of her videos yet.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:29 PM

I suspect "jumping the shark" will be translated to "humping the foam finger", but probably just for pop music.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:31 PM

Lizzie, you are an idiot. Two of the highest selling US songs of the year and you say "non-talent"? Jealously and fear are your problems.

As for children - STAY AWAY. You and your kind have done almost as much to damage the minds of children, both in your hostility to learning and in your hostility to the sexuality which WILL make them happy as the Spanish Inquisition.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:01 PM

She may have talent, Richard, but the it wasn't evident at that awards show. Someone once told me that a musician has to decide whether they want to be known for their music or their personal lives, because that's what people will care about. True, pop music is a bit of both talent and personality. But while I'm sure she sang something, I can't remember that at all.

Meanwhile, Lady Gaga ended up in a thong bikini, waggled both butt cheek, and I remember her song. How she managed to do that with what I saw as taste and the 21 year-old girl in a (warning: Miley ass photo) glute-tube symbolically fucking a big foam finger made me hope there were paramedics standing by backstage with an emergency dose of Monistat. That rubber didn't look like it breathed much. It would have been funny if it weren't so sad. Aw, the hell with it... it was still funny.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: DebC
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:53 PM

I certainly have more important things to be concerned about.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: PHJim
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:59 PM

Richard, If that performance was representative of Miley's talent, then you can't really blame Lizzie for criticizing it. I realise that what Lizzie or I or the other posters here like might not be the same as your tastes, but I find it really hard to appreciate the talent that went into that performance. Often I can appreciate the talent that goes into a performance, even if I don't like listening to it, but not in this case. I will admit that this is the first and only piece of Miley's musical work that I have ever seen or heard, but I don't think I'm about to run out and listen to any more Miley based on that.
I didn't find her performance disgusting, just uninteresting.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 09:12 PM

Are you really puzzled, Richard?

Or are you, perhaps, feigning puzzlement to make a point of how you envision sexuality *should* ideally be—that is, void of any cultural trappings?

I agree that this is not a big deal (i.e. in perspective), but it's clear why there would be "buzz" over the incident. And it's got nothing to do with "USAian" (American, thanks) conservatives and Christians.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 09:17 PM

At some point, if they want their careers to continue, girl performers in pop need to make some sort of statement that they want to be seen as women performers. She's doing exactly what Kylie Minogue did a couple of decades ago, and without obviously heading for a celebrity meltdown as Britney Spears did when trying the same thing. So it's hard to see a problem.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 09:59 PM

Isn't it about time someone praised it as the new folk music?

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 11:13 PM

well, speaking as someone who reckons Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines"
is one of the best pop singles for nearly 2 decades..

..it's certainly a very daft performance setpiece..

fair to say even quite shite....

but hardly lewd enough for anyone on any extreme side of the perennial morality vs. art divide
to seriously get their knickers in a twist about...????

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 11:33 PM

I didn't watch. I don't feel any connection to most of the music the VMA show promotes. So, my opinion is pretty much the same as Deb Cowan's.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:02 AM

I don't think all that much of Thicke's "Blurred lines" - although it does reference a significant cultural phenomenon of such mixed messages - but if you compare the VMA dance routine with the uncensored official Thicke video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDUC1LUXSU you will also see the Miley Cyrus dance routine paying homage to a number of parts of the video - even down to the big foam finger.

The outrage seems to be because a woman took the initiative this time. That is discriminatory.

I detect the same dual standard in Gibb Sahib's post here - considering his championing of the cruder versions of shanties (Particularly "Whip Jamboree") in the past on this site.

In general the Miley moves were very bowdlerised compared to Jamaican dancehall - examples here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY88mEdF54g

and here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHUhj9o8mbc.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:25 AM

It's also pretty tamed down from Ndombolo - here - http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8l9XzAVTeTE&h=_AQGNJS_i

and note cultural pathway briefly explained here - http://vimeo.com/15089105

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: selby
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM

There is no such thing as bad publicity, and publicity makes money. She is a singer and an actress and that is what she does, Cher did it a long time ago and I don't think she is poor. The boy bands are marketed for the girls and do raunchy routines
It is how the pop business works.
Keith

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:37 AM

It looks no more ludicrous than any of the other girl singers/groups who use sex to sell music. Bit of a sell-out in my view but, what the heck, I find her music quite listenable and the display certainly does not offend me.

As to the link to grooming children, all I can say is WTF??? OK, children need protecting, but from who and what? I was sickened to see this article about an innocent person being suspected of child abuse because of attitudes like our local panic monger. Scream first ask questions later (if at all) seems to be prevalent nowadays and that often does far more damage than anything that Ms Cyrus may do.

Just my 2 pen'urth

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:53 AM

There's an exellent article on this by Hadley Freeman in the Guardian. Miley Cyrus's twerking routine was cultural appropriation at its worst

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:50 AM

I'm not convinced by Hadley Freeman - she seems to be saying that white people must not try to dance like black people.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:43 AM

Just another tempest in a piss-pot over yet another bimbo.

Who gives a shit, and why?

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:43 AM

The outrage seems to be directed toward MTV for manipulating the rating system to suggest this was suitable for 14 year olds. As for the artistic content it reminded me of some 3rd rate Miami kitty bar with better production values.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: John P
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:20 AM

This kind of performance is, apparently, what our society wants and rewards. Most of pop music is like this. What, there's a line between overt sexual display and extra overt sexual display?

If someone wants to engage in sexual display, who cares? If you don't want to see it, your job is to not watch it. I really don't like using sex to sell music, but I dislike people trying to censor it even more. I think the whole concept of not showing things on television because of their sexual content is offensive. I am appalled that I am being asked to help protect the morals of children when I disagree with the morals and the children aren't mine. I am appalled that kids can't see sex on TV but they can see hundreds of people get violently killed every day. If we're going to practice censorship, let's at least get real about it.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:21 AM

"Just another tempest in a piss-pot over yet another bimbo.
Who gives a shit, and why?"

Not me.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:48 AM

Like they say, "If you don't want to see it then change the channel"...

B~

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:14 AM

The only marginally "offensive" thing about Cyrus' dance, was that it was kind of crap. I do like to see strong female performers who can dance doing it well. I actually watched the whole video waiting for some kind of shock moment, then when it was over realised that I must have missed it! I dont' think that white women shouldn't try to dance like black women, only that white women who can't dance shouldn't try to imitate black women who can :-/

This is good and much sexier: Ciara

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Padre
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:23 AM

YAWNNNNNNNN!!!

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:53 AM

Except in duration, Cyrus and Thicke go beyond anything shown in the Ndombolo video, which isn't live, isn't in real time, and doesn't simulate ultimate sex acts.)

Gibb is right: "cultural baggage." At a Roman bacchanale, people would have been disappointed, not offended. But simulating sex on live TV, with all those little nuances, is culturally taboo *all over the freaking world.* Think that fact "restrains artists"? Tough. It's still a fact. Like their millionaire "handlers," right up to the lords of MTV, the performers were *intentionally* giving the finger to a *worldwide* audience, including parents expecting a show rated for 14-year-olds. And for the Benjamins, baby, the Benjamins! The Benjamins that they're counting on the dumbest audience members to shoot their way, stat!

Except for the novel use of the football-fetish foam finger, I don't see any "art" there. It's people pretending to screw in public without falling off the stage. And in your face, as the saying goes, while the live audience cheers.

Is it wrong to be creeped out that Cyrus's parents(unlike, for example, Robin Thicke's mom) were among those cheering? (Billy Ray, a Christian fundamentalist, called his daughter's performance a "blessing," which must mean, "Her God-given energy and lack of taste and talent will make her famous and possibly super-rich!" I guess he didn't notice her cute little "devil horns.")

The act didn't showcase song or dance. It was designed to say, "We can and will do any goddamn legal thing we want in public for cash because we're already rich celebs. And you'll beg us for more!"

BTW, have no prominent feminists observed that the Thicke & Cyrus act was unarguably the most blatant and self-indulgent mass-media degradation of women into pure male sex fantasy in the history of television? (On the other hand, "The Benjamins! The Benjamins!")

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 11:09 AM

Y'all be fucked up Jack...That bitch is hot! She's so fine I'd even suck her Daddy's dick!

Now can we put this crap thread below the line or file it under "DC" for dumbass content or something?   


Spaw

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 11:21 AM

I detect the same dual standard in Gibb Sahib's post here

What dual standard, Richard? I said I agree that, as far as sexuality is concerned, this is not a big deal—that is, one can easily fin much worse (or better, depending on your view) "displays." But so what? Contexts vary. There are several elements of contexts that, as I said, make it very clear why there would be much buzz surrounding this. That is despite the fact that you or I might look at it and think "Pfft, whatever." Hence my asking you directly (not speaking about you in third person) if you were truly puzzled.

In regards to sex, who does it with whom (age, age gaps, genders, relationships, class, race) and when (public/private, before/after marriage, after short time/long time) and why (fun, love, cash) etc all in fact matter to people - these variables reflect how people view what might be the exact same act in every case. Whether you view that should not be how it is OK, but it sounds insincere to talk as if you don't see why *other* people would be riled.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 11:48 AM

From The Onion 2008, worth a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOgj2etJs3Y

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 01:09 PM

> it sounds insincere to talk as if you don't see why *other* people would be riled.

Or to imply that, after all, it's "just their opinion," while one's own point of view, neither elaborated nor supported, is "obviously" so much more.

The intentional, greed-driven, narcissistic subversion of levels of public discourse and behavior (around the globe in this case and in the faces of millions) is indefensible on civilized terms.

Hint: anyone who'd like to defend it might start with Rousseau's empty claim that "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains." (Maybe he meant "norm-free.")

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 01:13 PM

I haven't seen the clip, but I am really enjoying hearing a lot of people getting their knickers in a twist about a little girl dancing. I think everybody has got some enjoyment out of it, even if it is for vastly different reasons.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 06:33 PM

I am greatly offended by the movement of this thread to BS.

It is about music and dance.

The fact that it also concerns politics and discrimination is no good reason to move it.

Folk music is about a thousand years of oppression and discrimination.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:35 PM

And that piece of shit needs to be oppressed for at least a thousand more and in this instance "music and dance" = "bumping and grinding"'

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:02 PM

Here are the results of a philly.com poll:

Out of 1593 votes, 316 or 19.8% loved her performance. Out of the remaining 1277 who were offended by her performance, this is how it shakes out: 242 or 15.2 % were most offended by her outfit (including the foam finger); 500 or 31.4% by her twerking; and 535 or 33.6% (including me) by her tongue action.

That lolling tongue was grotesque and creepy, like something out of "The Exorcist." It put me off immediately. To say that her costume and hairstyle were in poor taste would be an understatement. Tacky tacky. Little Cindy Lou Who pigtails that looked more like little horns but no sexy she devil, more like possessed child. That wasn't twerking. She was up there flailing around half the time like Jim Morrison on a bad night. She was utterly graceless, unfeminine, not sexy at all. ..

Excellent commentary of Miley Cyrus' MTV Awards performance:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/26/miley-cyrus-twerking-not-wo

The last line sums it up:

"The other problem is that I'm afraid she just isn't very good at it."

I'll second that.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:54 PM

Bloody hell !!!!

Bad enough it's all over the news and internet;

now my mrs is rabbiting on about 'twerking' !!!???


Please God, no..

spare me the thought and sight of her fat arse gyrating and thrusting in my face ........


Bollox, all it needs now is for the local community fitness centre
to tack on twerking to the 'over 50s' zumba classes ...............

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:03 PM

Ya' know what...

When I was a kid growing up in the 50s I remember the old folks talkin', "These kids these days"...

What goes around, comes around...

Hey, I have now seen a clip of the performance and...

...I don't give a rat's ass... The P-Vine and I don't dance like that but I ain't gonna be like them old folks I grew up around...

Time moves forward... I say...

...get over it...

Plus, the kid is hotter than a three dollar pistol...

B;~)

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:07 PM

How long before a "Twerk Out" video on Amazon.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 02:45 AM

Good Guardian piece there Suzy. As for Cyrus after hearing her anodyne ear-rot I'm firmly with Lizzie on talentless. Two number one hits? There are obviously a few too many 11 year old girls with pocket-money burning a hole in their pockets. Eh, plus ca change!! ;)

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:55 AM

Poor taste? Yes. But, even if you feel it is poor, it is to other peoples taste. So why the hatefest? There are lots of people who's tastes are not for folk music, opera, jazz, classics and all sorts of other things. But to call it crap and worse for not liking it is very intolerant. I don't particularly like the routine but I would never dream of saying it should be 'oppressed for a thousand years' and other such like.

As has been said before, don't like it? Don't watch.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,mad jock
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 04:34 AM

its doing precisely what she wanted ....getting people talking about her ...even here on a site about Folk Music

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 05:05 AM

a very catchy song promoting the idea of getting screened for Bowel Cancer was just played on Radio Scotland, Perhaps she should sing it. Title.... Test you Poo.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 05:05 AM

a very catchy song promoting the idea of getting screened for Bowel Cancer was just played on Radio Scotland, Perhaps she should sing it. Title.... Test you Poo.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 05:39 AM

"Poor taste? Yes. But, even if you feel it is poor, it is to other peoples taste. So why the hatefest?"

I've never knowingly given Cyrus any attention before now. We were asked to share opinions so did so.

I think there are a number of things going on here, firstly it's mu$ic clearly created for and marketed AT kids/children/pre-teens, fair enough, but the reason the act attracted attention, wasn't for sexualised content per se (plenty of that about after all), but sexualised content aimed AT an audience of children - the show was at a specifically teen music event. To compound matters, there was also a whole heap of sketchy peado references with the the dancing teddy bears and having a fully clothed old bloke (he's twice her age) miming bumming a girl who's just stripped off of a teddy bear outfit.

If Cyrus wants to explore kink/fetishistic teddies, daddy and naughty little girl sex themes in her umm art, that's fine but to target it at a child audience for the sake of getting more media attention, is exploitative and plain shady.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 05:49 AM

That said, I definitely see why she would enjoy subverting her public image as "wholesome role model" The onion really had that pinned.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 05:57 AM

That's fine, CS. I fully understand your viewpoint and agree to a certain point. I am not sure it is geared specifically at teens and, even if it is, teens can see far worse on the internet every day. As for pre-teens, well, parents should take some responsibility here and ensure that their children are not subject to anything they don't want them to see. But, as I say, you do have a very fair point.

What I am on about though is not that but some of the the comments, above, about it being crap etc. I may not like it myself but why pee on someone elses parade? I would, and often do, get annoyed at people taking the piss oout of folk music or condemning it in the same way this is being slated by music fans on here. Would it not be fairer just to say they don't like it rather than justifying that dislike by saying it is crap?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 06:17 AM

OK Dave to qualify my prior comments about the only routine being "a bit crap" and white artists badly mimicking black artists - I do think that if white/mainstream culture is going to appropriate elements of black/minority culture, then those who do so should at least treat them with some degree of respect, by which I mean do it well. Otherwise it comes over as a tacky pastiche rather than genuine homage to the culture you're borrowing from - hence the "racist minstrelsy" comments Cyrus' show has attracted from some quarters.

Anyhow, it seems the more attention I pay to Cyrus, the more she seems to be annoying me - time to forget she exists again! :-D

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 06:31 AM

Getting banned from teen/preteen shows in a blaze of publicity is a good tactic if you want to move out of that market.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 06:38 AM

I am pretty sure it is now viewed as racist, and could well be for all I know, to say that black people do some things better than white people and vice-versa :-) Surely all songs and dances can be, and often are, performed equally well by people of all races. To generalise that a whole race is better than another is not an acceptable argument is it? All that aside though I do know what you mean and, like I said earlier, the routine did nothing for me whatsoever. May have done 40 years ago, but now - nothing :-( Maybe it was not mimicking black/minority culture but simply an experiment in fusion that, to some, did not work? I am sure others found it fine and I maintain that the type of negative criticism displayed above does no-one any good.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:24 AM

"To generalise that a whole race is better than another is not an acceptable argument is it?"

No, and I didn't do that. However we do have a very long history of white appropriation of aspects of black musical culture; it's effectively what our music industry is built upon. It can be done with various degrees of success, but because of that history, it needs to be attempted with some care and not to mention artistry. Often it can be done very badly. The line between exploitative appropriation and creative fusion is a fine one, as is the line between racist parody and respectful homage. I don't know if Cyrus management wanted to achieve the latter, but my guess is not. I think all they wanted to achieve was a massive boost in publicity for their product through crude (by which I mean blunt/overt) tactics designed to provoke outrage among the parents of the young children watching the show (remember that 'teen' in marketing terms does not align with 'teen' in actual age terms), clearly they succeeded doing that very well.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:33 AM

Moreover, DtG, it is not a 'race' thing to suggest that one performer, no matter of what race, may be better then another, is it? It is the quality of this particular performance that is at issue (together perhaps with the motivations for the presentation), not the ethnicity of the person performing it.

~M~

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:46 AM

Dave, I'm tired of all the responsibility censorship being laid at the parent's feet. There ought to be a little social responsibly along with the cashing in. This show was intended for the younger set. They ram this stuff down everybody's throat indiscriminately.

CS, it did look like a pedophile's dream. Yucky. I agree. Let's forget her together.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM

No, and I didn't do that.

You did not indeed, CS, and I did not suggest you had. My comment was merely an observation and if you thought it referred to you then I apologise.

MtheGM

it is not a 'race' thing to suggest that one performer, no matter of what race, may be better then another, is it?

It is not, Michael, but I was remarking on the comment "white artists badly mimicking black artists" and pointing out that it could be construed as racist (please note that I also said "could well be for all I know") to say that a black artists perform better in some fields that white ones.

Suzy, I can understand how the two above comments were misinterpreted and I could have phrased them better but please note that I said "parents should take some responsibility here". How you get "all the responsibility censorship being laid at the parent's feet." out of that is beyond me. I agree that there is a social responsibility too, which is why I said 'some responsibility ' rather than 'all responsibility'. But also note that the prime responsibility must be with the parents. It would help if those who have nothing to do with my children, such as TV executives, would help a little but as far as my children are concerned, the buck stops here. Other people seem to abdicate all responsibility and blame everyone but themselves.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 10:21 AM

DtG,
My "this piece of shit needs to be oppressed for at least another thousand {years}" remark was a bit of hyperbole in response to to something Richard Bridge wrote and it's not something that I advocate. I don't care wether or not people watch and enjoy this, that's their business. What I object to is the Trojan Horse tactic that MTV used in marketing this raunch to 14 year olds who were Hannah Montana fans. Parents are ultimately responsible but in this case many felt they were the victims of a sneak attack and they probably were. When my daugther was a teen her musical heroes included Emmylou Harris, Joni Mitchell and later Patti Smith and she became a good amateur singer.
I look at this Miley Cyrus thing and some of the other garbage on MTV and wonder how many 14 year old girls think it would be way cool to be a 'ho in some rappers' (white or black) posse.
(My god, have I become my parents?)

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 10:33 AM

well.. to my middle aged provincial west-countryman eyes,

no matter who's doing it, no matter how 'hot' a 'babe' they might be,

twerking on the telly in flesh coloured PVC incontinence pants
just looks a bit too immature and silly....


When will this daft fad end..??

What next...

Ann Widdecombe twerking on saturday tea time light entertainment TV specials !!!???



Now if it was real grown up women with natural bushy pubes dancing the "Can Can" with no knickers on...!!!!!

that's the kinda positive dance music culture videos more to my particular tastes...

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 11:23 AM

I too long for the days of good, clean filth.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 11:44 AM

it did look like a pedophile's dream

She's nearly 21 and to me looks every month of it and then some.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:36 PM

Gillymor, your explanation is fine. I only used your quote as an example of the many so please don't thing I was picking on you. However, you just said "how many 14 year old girls think it would be way cool to be a 'ho in some rappers' " I don't think that will happen. I was first hooked on Jimi Hendrix, followed by Alice Cooper and Ozzy Osbourne. I was 14 when I got into Rock Music. Neither me nor any of my friends ever tried to shag our guitars, hang ourselves or bite the heads off bats. Surely you need to credit the current 14 years olds with as much sense as I had and, hopefuly, you did?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:51 PM

To add to the yuck factor, the first half of Cyrus's folly showed her dancing harmlessly with giant *teddy bears*.

Then she stripped down further and showed how she'd "grown up."

Get the picture? Doesn't every 14-year-old want to grow up?

(IRONY ALERT: Maybe next year's Awards will have pop stars *excreting* to music. I mean, somebody will think it's cool, so where's the harm? And the year after, gladiators! They're bored on death row, and most would prefer brief stardom to the needle any day. Let's all have some fun, MTV!)

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 04:36 AM

"pop stars *excreting* to music"

Too late. It's already been done.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 08:46 AM

Dave, I don't pretend to know what goes on in the mind of a 14 yr. old girl, as I said "I wonder" in regard to the ho comment. I do know that my daughter has become a fine person and I believe it was due in large part to the type of art she was exposed to as a young girl (much credit to her mother).
As for MTV, GIGO.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 08:55 AM

The fact that something is ridiculous doesn't mean it is funny. As demonstrated in this instance.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 10:01 AM

I don't pretend to know what goes on in the mind of a 14 yr. old girl

I have no real proof, gillymor, but I am pretty sure it will be a very similar thing that goes on in the mind of a 14 year old boy, but more sensible :-) And I DO know what goes on in the mind of a 14 year old boy because I was one, albeit a long time ago, and I cannot believe a 14 year old in 2013 is vastly different to a 14 year old in 1967. Which was, if I remember rightly, the summer of love!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 10:42 AM

> Too late. It's already been done.

In front of millions? Well, maybe. But they can probably combine it with something else.

Like gladiators.

Looks like Manzoni's time has come round at last:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist's_shit

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 12:42 PM

"To add to the yuck factor, the first half of Cyrus's folly showed her dancing harmlessly with giant *teddy bears*.
Then she stripped down further and showed how she'd "grown up."
Get the picture? Doesn't every 14-year-old want to grow up?"

It's not so much the 14 yr olds but the 7 yr olds. 14 yr olds are well on their way to being "all grown up" but Cyrus' fan base is still substantially forged on her Hannah Montanna foundations which are made up of younger children. And MTV knows this which is why aiming the awards to show at a time suitable for a young audience, was as it was put above a 'Trogan Horse tactic'.

As I said previously, if Cyrus wants to have some fun (and it's clear she is, and I've no problem with that) playing with her "good little girl" Disney image by subverting it with kink / fetish 'brat' sexual themes involving giant teddy bears and grinding against older daddy figures, then using her actual little girl fan-base as a means to gain 'shock' media attention, is both exploitative and cynical.

That said, though I think her music (and this performance) is crap and some of her attempts to go all 'hood' are misguided; speaking from a female perspective - and despite finding her initially annoying - I've decided I actually kind of like Cyrus; I like her assertive boyish style and fronty / non-passive manner (I think in the US they call it 'spunky' which means something else again in the UK, but we'll pass that by) all of which incidentally was highlighted by RB in the OP. In short, as a role model for actual *teenage* girls I don't object to her at all

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 01:11 PM

>>>"Lizzie, you are an idiot. Two of the highest selling US songs of the year and you say "non-talent"? Jealously and fear are your problems."<<<

Oh, Richard, you DO make me giggle! I've never heard these songs, don't listen to the Crap spewed out by the Corporate Sociopathic Music Bastards...


"As for children - STAY AWAY. You and your kind have done almost as much to damage the minds of children, both in your hostility to learning and in your hostility to the sexuality which WILL make them happy as the Spanish Inquisition."<<<


I don't want my children to be 'happy as the Spanish Inquisition' Richard...I'd rather they fought against Sociopathic Nutcases...

(sorry, couldn't resist THAT one!)


I don't want children being sexualized from the moment of birth, Richard...I'd rather they had something called CHILDHOOD, where perverted minds like Miley's can't reach them, but Twinkle Twinkle Little Star can...

Miley is as Miley does....and truly if simulated Masturbation and Anal/From Behind Sex is ALL that she can think of to sell her..erm...music..or give her erm...fame, well I think it's time the Human Race bowed out gracefully really....

And please, with your next comment, please, don't go breaking my achey breaky heart, Richard..

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM

> I think in the US they call it 'spunky' which means something else again in the UK, but we'll pass that by.

Yeah, "spunky," which is energetic and assertive; but we also have "feisty," which is somewhat more tenacious and aggressive.

Otherwise, they're pretty much the same. Over here.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 04:32 PM

In the UK, "spunk" is male ejaculate.

Lizzie, learn to read. Then you may learn other things too, although I have no great hope of you ever learning anything.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 12:14 AM

I have no interest in the video, but I am curious: what is 'twerking'?

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 02:38 AM

Someone once told me that a musician has to decide whether they want to be known for their music or their personal lives, because that's what people will care about.

It may be something like this you have in mind:
======================================================
The Choice


The intellect of man is forced to choose
perfection of the life, or of the work,
And if it take the second must refuse
A heavenly mansion, raging in the dark.
When all that story's finished, what's the news?
In luck or out the toil has left its mark:
That old perplexity an empty purse,
Or the day's vanity, the night's remorse.


- William Butler Yeats
======================================================

Yes, she has chosen to go down a certain path, which in at least the short term will gain much publicity and no doubt a fair bit of money. Whether that turns out to be worth it long term is something only she will be able to decide.

As for 'grooming': a bit of an over reaction, I would say. Pillorying (or worse) for people accused of 'corrupting the youth' is hardly new, but somehow the youth generally seem to get through. Most can tell the difference between life and performance, and art in general is about challenging or exploring perceptions, assumptions and attitudes. Ok, this video is hardly high art, but even so it merits a place on the lower rungs of the ladder.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 02:45 AM

meself ~~ why not just look it up by googling it? you will find lots of wiki & online dictionary definitions.

~M~

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 03:16 AM

Here ya go, Richard..and I have to say that I thought you had more brain cells than to fall for Miley Cyrus being a total prat, as were all those around her, but hey, I guess The Emperor has sold you some of his New Clothes, eh?

Whilst you're busy Ogling & Backing The Grooming of Our Children

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 04:02 AM

Poor old Lizzie, get some HRT and try to remember how good it used to feel. If it never did there's even more wrong with you than I thought.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 06:03 AM

Wow, what a sheltered life I lead. I'd never heard of Miley Cyrus or twerking.

Must stop making drawings of naked women in life classes and get out more...

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 06:29 AM

"Must stop making drawings of naked women in life classes and get out more..."

That made me laff Pete!
Yes, didn't you realise, nekkedness - and of course sex - is strictly reserved for the beautiful thin people under twenty five who invented it - this small elite group also invented drugs and partying. So oldies stick to your crochet and crosswords please; and don't forget to be horrified at young people today doing things that no-one ever thought of before!

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 06:46 AM

You disturb me at times, Richard.

ANYONE who thinks this video is suitable for children to be seeing, worries me..Anyone who thinks this is what women should be aiming for in their lives, worries me..

And let's not forget the bloke involved here either, for he's as big a prat as she is...

Behind them both though, stand The Sick Corporate Music Industry who will stop at NOTHING now to sell their wares...

Oh..and by the way, I have NO need for HRT thanks..nor do I ever want ANY relationship which is based on a man simply using, or abusing, my body for his own reasons..nor one where I would do that to a man.

By all means, you carry on with your physical activity, but hey, I'll take The Spiritual into mine, thanks, for I'm not just a bunch of hormones and body parts...

Even at Miley's age, had A Suit come up to me and told me wanted me to perform in such a way, he'd have felt the front and back of my hand as he flew across the room...

You see, I was raised to have not only respect for most others, but also to have one helluva lot of respect for myself...that's why both the men I married, I went on to divorce, due to their total lack of respect towards me..and when respect dies, for me, love dies...

You had love with your wife. I've heard you talk about her a lot, but now, all you do is spill forth oddness about sex and children being shown all that can give them such pleasure in later life etc..

I see a country filled with Groomed Children and Young People, many of whom are so damn torn apart inside that they have to render themselves senseless with alcohol as often as they can, purely to cope with the kind of Weirdness that some people think they should be surrounded by....

We grew up in very different times...and whilst I know that much of what you say, you say to wind me up and give yourself a chuckle, I happen to believe that we are staring at the Gates of Hell with this Hedonistic, Stupid, Ignorant and Feckingly, Fuckingly Horrendous behaviour which The Perverts want everyone to accept as Normal.

No thanks, Richard.

I ain't bothered about standing up and shouting out, about being different or unpopular, for what I saw Miley and The Bloke doing the other night filled me with revulsion.

And nope, that's not revulsion of any physical act, it's just revulsion over how disassociated some folks have become (and some have always been, having been born that way) over what was once seen as Love, as humans RELATING to each other, rather than just cold, hard, up for it sex with any Tom, Dick or Harry's dick...

Some bloody dodgy motives going on out there. I suggest you open your eyes a little wider, for the world your Grandchild will have to endure won't be too good....

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 07:04 AM

LC: "Behind them both though, stand The Sick Corporate Music Industry who will stop at NOTHING now to sell their wares..."

Fully agree with you here Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 07:45 AM

I don't think I do, CS. Not in as much as it is restricted to the music industry. All businesses, bar none, need to sell their wares to keep going. Any business that wants to keep going will use whatever means they can to sell more.

The other thing is that I cannot understand why people continue repeating the same things that their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents ad infinitum have said. Surely all on here must remember their parents telling them not to watch this or do that and the feeling of annoyance and frustration that you were not being allowed to live your own life. The feelings that your parents were denying you something? In fairness, my parents were very good and quite liberal, odd considering my Dad is Polish and very religious! Anyway, what I am getting around to is the assumption that our kids will be 'corrupted' by popular culture. You all need to give them some credit. They are not stupid and can figure out reality and fantasy for themselves.

This display is, in my opinion, no worse than a lot of the stuff I saw in the 60's. My parents were probably aghast with some of the pop stars I liked. My Mum tells me that her Dad tried to stop her from listening to Irish rebel songs. Are not songs that glorify killing people worse than overtly sexual displays? My Dad travelled with a Gypsy band in his youth, much to my Grandmothers annoyance. Probably saw and learned more about sex then that anyone will learn from Ms Cyrus.

In a nutshell, I trusted my kids as I will trust my grandkids. All of you who believe they should be wrapped in cotton wool are not only denying them a true childhood but giving the impression that you think they are stupid enough to believe the hype.

Just my 2 pen'urth.

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 09:02 AM

Why not just watch something like this instead?

Joni Mitchell - Live in 1970 on the BBC

Consider the vast distance between magnificently beautiful and intelligent art, beautifully performed, and utterly decadent, malevolent tripe. It's up to you what goes into your head, what follows in your own life as a consequence of that, and the same goes for your children. It's up to them. I know what I'd choose.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 10:11 AM

The designer of the iconic foam finger says his product will survive defilement:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertainment/2013/08/creator-foam-finger-deeply-upset-miley-cyrus/68853/

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 10:19 AM

I agree largely with DtG that children can often be trusted to distinguish the real from the phony. But I can't see that it is quite 'wrapping children in cotton-wool' to regret that they should be exposed at a vulnerable age, when they are obviously open to all sorts of influences, to a demonstration of such vulgarity & appalling taste, on the part of one who has previously been a beneficial and respected part of their lives; but who has now been used, for highly dubious motives, by the sort of exploitative organisation to which Lizzie, as always, so rightly draws attention. (Lizzie, as has been observed before, sometimes has a tendency to undermine her own excellent arguments by slightly hyperbolical overstatement and an occasionally over-emphatic tone; but she is to my mind one of the morally strongest and most principled regular contributors to this forum, and ought to be respected as such rather than made the butt of some people's self-satisfied contempt at the occasional apparent naivety of some of her concepts and utterances.)

In sum: this isn't just a moral matter, but an aesthetic one also, IMO.

~M~

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 10:30 AM

Thanks for that link, L.H. Joni was a great influence on my daughter, who learned and still plays a number of her songs, but just consider how much more profound and inspirational that performance would have been had Joni had shucked her dress and rubbed her hind parts up against a leering adult male (insert smiley-faced emoticon here, can't do 'em).

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 10:59 AM

You just do semi-colon, hyphen, close bracket

;-)

Yes, but comparisons don't get one far. One could think of hundreds of young women who would furnish a better model for the young to emulate. Which is, of course, in no way to go back on what I have already said of the regrettable quality of the performance in question.

~M~

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM

Heh! ;-) Yeah, gillymor...just think!

It amazes me the stuff the mainstream music industry is pushing on the public nowadays. Mind you, they were pushing some pretty stupid and crass stuff back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s too, but society had not yet declined into anything approaching the kind of decadence and emptiness one sees happening now.

And yet, there are always some very good things happening in music too. If one looks, one can find them, but very seldom on the mainstream media outlets. That tells you something about the business people who own those outlets...about what they are dedicated to and what they focus on...and what powers they serve.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 12:12 PM

I have to remember when Elvis was going to be on the Ed Sullivan show. I was aware there were people offended, but I didn't understand why. I asked my mom about it, and she told me it was because he gyrated his hips when he danced and some folks thought that was indecent. So I watched the show, hoping to see something scandalous, and what I saw was a guy singing and dancing. Big whoop. I wonder if I would have liked it more if it had pissed off my parents.

We got used to Elvis. We got used to Michael Jackson and Madonna grabbing their crotches. I know some will think it's a bad thing that we get used to it, but really, is our sensitivity to things like this the real problem.

And seriously, Miley Cyrus is driving her own career.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 12:31 PM

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 01:11 PM

>>>"Lizzie, you are an idiot. Two of the highest selling US songs of the year and you say "non-talent"? Jealously and fear are your problems."<<<

Oh, Richard, you DO make me giggle! I've never heard these songs, don't listen to the Crap spewed out by the Corporate Sociopathic Music Bastards...


"As for children - STAY AWAY. You and your kind have done almost as much to damage the minds of children, both in your hostility to learning and in your hostility to the sexuality which WILL make them happy as the Spanish Inquisition."<<<


I don't want my children to be 'happy as the Spanish Inquisition' Richard...I'd rather they fought against Sociopathic Nutcases...

(sorry, couldn't resist THAT one!)


I don't want children being sexualized from the moment of birth, Richard...I'd rather they had something called CHILDHOOD, where perverted minds like Miley's can't reach them, but Twinkle Twinkle Little Star can...

Miley is as Miley does....and truly if simulated Masturbation and Anal/From Behind Sex is ALL that she can think of to sell her..erm...music..or give her erm...fame, well I think it's time the Human Race bowed out gracefully really....

And please, with your next comment, please, don't go breaking my achey breaky heart, Richard..

Dead on Lizzie. I'm glad Miley Cyrus' mother came out and said basically, "My girl does not have to resort to this- and she shouldn't."

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 12:49 PM

has a tendency to undermine her own excellent arguments by slightly hyperbolical overstatement and an occasionally over-emphatic tone

And have you not spotted that the same hyperbole and over-emphasis is often used in any arguments against, Michael? Such as 'wrapping in cotton wool' maybe? :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 02:03 PM

So nobody wants to talk about Miley Cyrus anymore, or is it just that there's never an opportunity to take a dig at someone that you can't pass up? Oh well, never mind --SSDD.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 02:58 PM

So nobody wants to talk about Miley Cyrus anymore

Jeri, did you ever think that anyone really did? The thread was started about peoples attitude to the display that Ms Cyrus put on. Not the girl herself.

And how on earth can you have a go at people for taking 'a dig at someone' by having a dig at them??? Not sure about the different day but that is certainly the same hypocritical shit.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 03:05 PM

No, I'd generally rather talk about stuff I really like, Jeri. That's why I posted the Joni Mitchell video.

You say we "got used to" Madonna and Michael Jackson grabbing their crotches? Well, I don't deny their great talent....or their hard work...but I was basically never much interested in the style or content of the music either one of them did, so I didn't particularly have to get used to the crotch-grabbing or whatever else they did along with it. I simply didn't care.

At the time I was really enjoying Bruce Springsteen, Jackson Browne, Bob Dylan, Mary Chapin Carpenter, and Dire Straits, along with numerous other artists who were recording in the 80s...and that's what I focused on.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 03:41 PM

Here, for instance, is something I like:

Mary Chapin Carpenter - Why Walk When You Can Fly?

In this world there's a whole lot of trouble baby
In this world there's a whole lot of pain
In this world there's a whole lot of trouble but
A whole lot of ground to gain
Why take when you could be giving
Why watch as the world goes by
It's a hard enough life to be living
Why walk when you can fly

In this world there's a whole lot of sorrow
In this world there's a whole lot of shame
In this world there's a whole lot of sorrow
And a whole lot of ground to gain
When you spend you whole life wishing
Wanting and wondering why
It's a long enough life to be living
Why walk when you can fly

And in this world there's a whole lot of golden
In this world there's a whole lot of plain
In this world you've a soul for a compass
And a heart for a pair of wings
There's a star on the far horizon
Rising bright in an azure sky
For the rest of the time that you're given
Why walk when you can fly

She does an absolutely beautiful performance of an absolutely beautiful song, with dignity, class, intelligence, and idealism of the highest sort. She did it all despite looking like a plain, ordinary girl, and just writing and singing great original songs instead of whoring herself as a corporate marketed sex product.

How often does mainstream media show you something like that at the top of the Youtube page, and how often do they bother to play it on the radio? It succeeds anyway...strictly on its own merit.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM

Never heard of Miley, any relation to B.R. Cyrus?

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 02:57 PM

Yes - His daughter.

D.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 07:24 PM

I love this thread .....real sensible people who say it like it bloody well is!! (Suzy)

Good folk who enjoy meaningful thought provoking songwriters and care about the actual music rather than the hype(Little Hawk).

Richard you are slightly weird, the sexualising of our children does not empower them, it enslaves them.
Childhood is an important part of human life
The media dictates that our kids ape and worship the exhibitionists who would destroy what should be a time of "gentle learning"

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 04:43 AM

Thisjust appeared on Faecesbook, all becomes clearer now

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 04:50 AM

This just appeared on Faecesbook, all becomes clearer now

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 09:29 AM

Miley Cyrus deserves compassion. Look her up as Hannah Montana. She has the wrong handlers.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 10:31 AM

Brilliant video on Facebook, Mr. Happy!

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 10:56 AM

Yes, Suzy, I think that Miley Cyrus, like many other young women in show business, is probably being victimized and controlled by her money-hungry handlers...who are undoubtedly a bunch of rich men in suits, busily perpetuating the worst aspects of the old virgin/whore stereotypes and fears that have been unfortunately bequeathed to this civilization by the most negative, deranged aspects of its ancient Christian religious traditions.

And I do have compassion for her, just as you say.

(I see both good and bad in Christianity, by the way...much of both. But I'm referring to the bad part in my remarks above. Many battles were fought in the early centuries of the Church between liberal forces and conservative forces, literalists and non-literalist, patriarchal forces and gender-inclusive forces. The most regressive conservative/patriarchal/sin&guilt-focused forces unfortunately won most of those battles up until quite recently, and it is due to their victories that women have been so oppressed and exploited in most of the last 2,000 years of "Christian" civilization.)

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 11:32 AM

Now here's another magnificent song by Mary Chapin Carpenter:

Between Here and Gone

This song, a reflection on the mysteries, joys, and sorrows of life, death, and mortality, was written by MCC upon hearing of the death of singer-songwriter Dave Carter.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 11:49 AM

Man, you guys obviously think this young woman is a complete moron. That's probably a little meaner than not liking her act.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 01:47 PM

I have no particular reason to think she's a moron. For all I know, she may be a very intelligent girl. That would not necessarily protect her from what happens to a great many young women in the "entertainment" business when hundreds of millions of dollars are involved.

I think, Jeri, that you're just intent for some reason on finding and continuing to find something...anything to oppose in what we're saying here, looking for the worst way to interpret it, and you're misreading it due to your own fervent desire to have some reason to continue to disagree.

Consider the stunning possibility that we too respect women, young women, freedom, and truth just as much as you do, and we are also grownups...like you...and you might not have to construe the various things we say from such a negative angle.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 03:29 PM

What's the difference between rape and sex? Rape is crude, unexpected, usually occurs in the wrong setting and happens without my permission.

If I am watching an awards show on TV, perhaps with my children, and Miley Cyrus suddenly comes on and starts doing pornography, that's a lot like rape. It is crude, unexpected, is happening in the wrong setting (my living room, not a strip joint) and happens without my permission.

TV viewers may be kind of stupid, but we're not THAT stupid.

I think we're going to find that Miley Cyrus has done her career a lot of harm.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 05:41 PM

Little Hawk, it's not about me thinking you don't respect women. It's me thinking you're interpreting this strangely and so upset that you try to divert discussion by posting lyrics by songwriter you respect.

I think she knows what she's doing. You don't. I don't believe it's the best course of action or even a good one, but it IS her decision. To think it isn't and to say she's being controlled implies she's ignorant, or stupid.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 05:56 PM

Well, if she isn't being controlled, she is ignorant, or stupid, or both.
She has been, I believe, a role model for little girls everywhere, has she had even a thought for those impressionable little girls without whom, she would be just another wannabe actress.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 10:29 PM

What's a Miley Cyrus?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 10:32 PM

Know what a Google is?

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 10:37 PM

Is it really necessary to point out that Ms. Cyrus will prabably make more money this month than Ms. Carpenter will in her lifetime? It's not about art. Or quality. Or morality. Or taste.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 13 - 11:06 PM

Google?

Yeah, the last name of an old comic strip character. His first name was "Barney." He had a hillbilly friend named "Snuffy Smith," and there was also a horse in the comic strip named "Sparkplug."

Yeah, I know all about Google.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 04:53 AM

What's a Miley Cyrus?

It's a bit like a Billy Ray Cyrus bit not as achy-breaky.

:D tG

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 02:56 PM

You have very good taste in music Little Hawk :-)

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 03:09 PM

Miley says that all she wanted to do was "make history."

What's more, "You're thinking about it more than I thought about it when I did it. Like, I didn't even think about it, 'cause that's just me. ... I don't pay attention to the negative."

Really kind of pathetic. No kidding.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/miley-cyrus-breaks-post-vma-silence-insists-detractors-132834225.html

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 03:31 PM

Just a bit over the top.

Hell, Madonna was a nun compared to this chick!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 04:09 PM

It's fine that Cyrus wanted attention, it's part of the fame machine that she's been a piece of since she was herself a child. The thing that pissed me off about this whole affair was the explicit and targeted exploitation of children, who as we - and Cyrus' machine know -form her core of Disney fans.

In case anyone's interested, one of the major techniques that paedophiles utilise in the sexual grooming of underage children, is subverting and exploiting key expressions of childhood. By which I mean the sexualising of teddy bears. daddy figures, and other usually 'safe' favourite childhood memes (I was once raped by a man wearing a father christmas suit, which may make some of you laugh).

When adults explore fetish / paedo-ish themes involving childhood toys and old men/women in their sex play, of course that's fine, just so long it's with an informed *adult audience*. To knowingly fuck about with such stuff with a *child audience*, is exploitative and pervy.

Someone said above that they assumed that children should know the difference between fact and fantasy. It's nice that they have such confidence in their progeny, because in fact a lot of children aren't able to make such a clear distinction; particularly of course when led by a 'trusted' adult. It's such innocent assumptions by caregivers that represent one of the prime causes of otherwise cared for children ending up being sexually abused.

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 04:48 PM

Really kind of pathetic. No kidding.

Like I said way back. Just another bimbo - who gives a shit?

Subject: RE: Miley Cyrus
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:19 PM

CS....Sorry to hear that sad story.

I agree with every word of your post...well said.