Mathy Groves - oil of green

Subject: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: GUEST,me to you
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 07:10 PM

I seem to remember singing this song from a book (could have been Lomax) and the line where Groves appears in church "dressed in his oil of green." Is that correct? Anyway, seems that oil of green must have been some kind of coat along the lines of what Robin Hood wore - Lincoln Green. Maybe this coat was oiled for the rainy weather that comes with roaming through the forests in the England of olden days? What do you think?

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 07:35 PM

Are you sure it's not "olive" green.

CC

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: GUEST,me to you
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 07:48 PM

Could have been. But I don't remember it that way. "Oil of green" makes more sense though if there is a custom in some places of oiling cloth in order to waterproof it. Or it may have been a leather suit dyed green and oiled. I do not remember this as "olive." And this must have been from Folk Songs of North America by Lomax. I don't have the book with me now.

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 08:54 PM

Stewie posted this version which is almost word-for-word the same as the version in the Alan Lomax Folk Songs of North America book. No oil of green-

Little Matthy Groves to church did go
God's holy word to hear.

Could you be hearing "oily" for "holy"?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 09:59 PM

Methinks you are dealing with a Mondegreen here.

The term comes from a mishearing of a line in "The Bonnie Earl of Moray."

Ye hielands and ye lowlands, oh, where hae ye been?
They have slain the Earl of Moray and laid him on the green.

Someone heard it as

They have slain the Earl of Moray and Lady Mondegreen.

and wanted to know who "Lady Mondegreen" was.

I'm pretty sure that's what you are dealing with here. I do a version of Mattie Groves in which what Mattie was wearing isn't mentioned, and I've read the texts of a number of other versions where that is true also.

I can imagine a version in which a line might say that Mattie Groves was "cloth-ed all in green."

Could it possibly be something like that?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Nov 13 - 10:14 PM

I remember one version where one of the women in church was dressed "all in green", but not Matty.

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 03:48 AM

MATTY GROVES is not dressed in green in my version, but it is in my opinion highly unlikely that the words sung in any version are oily green.

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 06:03 AM

Stanza 2 of Bronson's version 27 is

This little MacGroves a-being there,
All dressed in oil of green,
He looked at her, she looked at him,
The like was never seen.

(headnote ref - Sharp MSS, 3686/2742. Also in Sharp & Karpeles, 1932, I, p175(J). Sung by Mrs Delie Knuckles, Barbourville, Ky., May 16, 1917.)

So there it certainly is in at least one authenticated version ~~ not 'olive', not 'holy', not 'all in green', not a mondegreen or whatever: but right there in Sharp, who was always a very careful transcriber. So the OP's question surely stands.

This is the only variant I can find after a quick haul thru Child & Bronson which specifies a colour that Musgrave/Matty/MacGroves &c wore; as distinct from the ladies, whose colours are specified in many versions. But I have long sung this ballad with a stanza almost identical to that above, but with "Lincoln green"; which I think I learnt from Paul Carter's singing of a Canadian variant called "The Young Leboux", way back in the late 1950s. But that is longish since & I would not swear to my source. Still, whatever that source may have been, "Lincoln green" is what has been in my consciousness over the 55+ years I have known the ballad.

~M~

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 06:19 AM

No, sorry, but even if it was transcribed correctly, the singer may have sung a version that was inherently wrong. If there is no other version which has these words and if common usage says that the phrase 'oil of green' did not exist then and does not exist now, then I believe Mrs Delie Knuckles of Barbourville, Ky. on May 16, 1917 sang a version that she believed right but, unfortunately, was not. compounding an error is not unheard of but to knowingly perpetuate that error is, in my opinion, a little silly.

Just my 2p. worth

DtG

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 06:56 AM

Very possibly, Dave. But all these somewhat scornful put-downs of the OP above, with their alternative suggestions, are nevertheless set at nought by the fact that a version with his precise words is there ~~ in print ~~ in an authenticated collection-from-tradition. However mistaken the source-singer might have been in reproducing her source, the fact remains that that is what she sang, and is clearly the version that the OP remembers.

And, anyhow, what exactly do you mean about a version of a traditional song being "inherently wrong"? What is "inherently right" in any traditionally-transmitted artefact?

~M~

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 07:13 AM

Inherently wrong as in basically wrong. She may have heard it and then repeated it incorrectly. Just as I would describe 'Me ears are alight' in Desmond Decker's 'Israelites' as inherently wrong. Apologies if the word inherent is misleading but I have neither the training or inclination to make sure my wording is perfect here :-)

Of course we could go on to say that changing words when transmitted by word of mouth this is part of the folk process but do we really want to get into "what is folk" yet again?

DtG

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 07:32 AM

Yes yes yes, Dave. I get all that and don't disagree. My point is that all those well-meaners above - who tried to tell the OP that his recollection of what he had read, but could no longer put a hand on, must have been faulty - were wrong. I have demonstrated that his recollection was accurate: I found the identical usage in Bronson, and he had NOT misremembered. The fact that the source singer might have sung an ill-remembered or otherwise corrupt [in the literary sense] version is quite beside that point. Nor can anyone demonstrate, if it were so, whether Mrs Knuckles was herself misrecalling, or repeating a misrecall which had come to her in that form; and if so, by how many variants back [if you follow me]. That is what makes me feel your penultimate statement, together with all those above which tried to tell OP he must have remembered it wrong, are just a bit too cocksure. I have demonstrated that he accurately remembers. That's all.

~M~

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 07:42 AM

That's fine, M. I was responding to your question "what exactly do you mean..." etc. May I ask which statement of mine you feel is 'just a bit to cocksure'?

D.

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 08:29 AM

Denouncing a traditionally transmitted phrase as 'non-existent' and 'inherently wrong' was, perhaps, a bit extreme, as was the suggestion that 'there is no other version that has these words', when I have shown one from Bronson derived from Sharp, and OP remembered it, he thought, from Lomax. Even if they derived from same source, the implication of all those above that it couldn't exist at all... So my 'cocksure' was aimed less at you, Dave, than at those above, who seemed to be twisting themselves into all sorts of knots to satisfy themselves and us that he had misremembered, when it seems likely, by my researches, that he hadn't. Couldn't any of them have checked Child & Bronson, as I did, before rushing in with their suggestions as to what he really 'must' have [mis]remembered?

~M~

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 08:42 AM

however, imo oil of green does not make any sense, why going on singing those words, why not olive green, or coat of green[ imo ] this is the most likely original word.. coat, just an opinion

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 08:59 AM

My phraseology is, at times, unclear Michael and I do know that, but in this case you will find that it said " If there is no other version which has these words and if common usage says that the phrase 'oil of green' did not exist " I also used the phrase "in my opinion" and "just my 2p worth". So, to say that anything I suggested was 'cocksure' really is incorrect. I feel I made it quite clear that I was not sure of anything, either cockwise or other. However, I accept that your 'cocksure' was aimed less at me if at all.

Seeing as I made a couple of posts I am still unsure which penultimate statement of mine you refer to as being cocksure at all. Unless it was "we could go on to say that changing words when transmitted by word of mouth this is part of the folk process". Of that I am pretty certain.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 09:01 AM

We are somewhat confusing two discourses here, Dick. Of course we all more or less consciously modify what we sing to make it more amenable to our performance, so that if we find a phrase that doesn't ring true we try to find an alternative which will make it more comfortable for us to sing. As I have said, I use 'Lincoln green', which I think it was in a version I remember from long-since. Your 'coat of green' would equally sound well - if one wants to specify what M was wearing, which most versions don't anyhow.

But that does not alter the fact that the phrase in question, whether or not it 'makes any sense', does occur in some collected and published versions of the ballad, so that the OP was doing quite a sensible thing to see if anyone could come up with an explanation of it whereby it might make some sense; and all those assertions that he couldn't have read it like that anywhere, and must have misremembered something else, were less than helpful.

~M~

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 01:25 PM

I was hardly "putting down" the writer of the OP. "GUEST, me to you" is not "guilty" of committing the Mondegreen, considering that he or she got it from written text. The Mondegreen could have happened way back.

Case in point:   there is what I believe is a typo--one letter--in Cecil Sharp's One Hundred English Folk Songs, in the printed version of "The Unquiet Grave." It's in the verse

Down in yonder grove, sweetheart,
Where we were wont to walk. . . .

It the book, it reads

Down in yonder grave, sweetheart. . . .

I can see two lovers taking a walk through a grove. But wouldn't taking a walk in a grave be a little restricted? And just a bit grim?

No. Somebody goofed. Either Sharp (although I doubt it) or an anonymous typesetter.

But this (grave) is the way Joan Baez recorded it, which is pretty much a dead giveaway that she got the song from Sharp's book and took it as read, without really thinking about whether or not it made sense.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 02:19 PM

don firth, yes indeed

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 13 - 05:56 PM

Well yes, Don; it appears that you at least accepted that he had seen what he claimed to have done. So OK to your suggestion that a mondegreen might have occurred at some unidentifiable point during the version's transmission. But it was to those who seemed to be saying that he couldn't have seen what he said he had, and [un]helpfully offering putative alternatives, that my remarks were mainly addressed. Surely they should first have checked, as I did, whether such a version did in fact exist. I didn't have a lot of difficulty locating it in precisely the form he had cited in a readily accessible standard collection.

~M~

Subject: ADD Version: Mathy Groves
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 02:27 AM

As Michael said, Bronson's version #27 of Child #81 comes from Sharp-Carpeles. Here's that version, which has a number of interesting variants on the standard wording. I think it's clear that the "oil of green" must have come from Mrs. Delie Knuckles, and not from a misunderstanding by Sharp.

Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard, #23 J

1 There was four and twenty ladies there
A-dancing at the ball
The first came in was a lily-white robe,
The next came pink and blue,
The third came in was Lord Banner's wife,
The flower of the view.

2 This little MacGroves a-being there,
All dressed in oil of green,
He looked at her, she looked at him,
The like was never seen.

3 She said to him : My sweet MacGroves,
Go home with me to-night;
There's waiting-boys plenty there,
And I'll ride by your side.

4 O no, O no, I dare not go,
I dare not for my life;
I know by the ring you wear
You are Lord Banner's wife.

5 O if I am Lord Banner's wife,
Lord Banner's hain't at home;
Lord Banner he's Redemption gone,
He's on Queen Anna's throne.

6 This little foot-page a-being there,
Determined Lord Banner should know.
He turned his course to Lord Banner's hall
And dingled on the ring.

7 What news, what news, my little foot-page ?
What news are you bringing to me ?
Is any of my fine brick castles blown down,
Or any of my men false been ?

8 There's none of your fine brick castles blown down,
Nor none of your men false been,
But little MacGroves in fair Scotland
In bed with your lady.

9 O if this be a lie your telling to me,
As O I take it to be,
I'll build me a gallows in fair Scotland,
And hanged you shall be.

10 If this be a lie I'm telling to you,
As O you take it to be,
You need not build no gallows at all,
Just hang me on a tree.

11 In calling all his merry men,
By one, by two, by threes,
Saying: Let's all go to fair Scotland
This young MacGroves to slay.

12 Then one of Lord Banner's foremost men
Who wished MacGroves no ill,
He drew his horn and he blew it loud,
He blew it loud and thrill.

13 What's this I hear, says little MacGroves,
It blew so loud and clear.
I think it's Lord Banner's horn.
O him how do I fear.

14 Lie down, lie down, my sweet MacGroves,
And keep me from the cold;
It's nothing but my father's horn
Calling the sheep to the fold.

15 They lay and slept, they slumbered and slept,
So sweetly they did sleep;
But when they woke who did they spy,
Lord Banner's at their feet.

16 Says : How do you like my own bedside ?
Or how do you like my sheet ?
Or how do you like my gay young wife
Lies in your arms asleep ?

17 Very well I like your own bedside,
Much better I like your sheet,
But the best of all's your gay young wife
Lies in my arms asleep.

18 Rise up, rise up, you young MacGroves,
Rise up, draw on your clothes.
It shall never be said in the fair Scotland
I slain a naked man.

19 O no, O no, I dare not rise,
I dare not for my life,
For you have two big, new, keen swords,
I have ne'er a knife.

20 O if I have two new, keen swords,
They cost deep in purse,
And you can take the best of them
And I will take the worst.

21 You can strike the very first blow,
But strike it like a man;
And I will strike the second blow;
I'll kill you if I can.

22 The very first lick that MacGroves struck,
He wounded Lord Banner full sore;
The second lick Lord Banner struck, -
MacGrove he spoke no more.

23 Rise up, rise up, my gay young wife,
Rise up, draw on your clothes,
And tell to me which you like best,
I or this young MacGroves.

24 If you lay struggling in your blood
As MacGroves he does now,
I'd kiss the lips of sweet MacGroves,
But I never would kiss yours.

From Sharp/Karpeles, English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians, Volume 1, page 175, #23 J, Sung by Mrs. Delie Knuckles at Barbourville, Knox County, Kentucky, May 16, 1917

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM

Joe - I think you mean "not from Mrs Knuckles"??

While agreeing that it is an odd version, clumsily expressed & almost nonsensical in places, I should have thought that Sharp would have checked so unusual a usage as the one in question here; he was, despite one or two lacunæ noted above, a careful transcriber in general.

In any case, the main point remains:- the OP didn't imagine or misremember the locution, did he?

~M~

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 07:12 AM

The OP wondered about the phrase "oil of green". A few suggestions were offered as to what it might mean, or what other phrase it might be a mondegreen of. But then there was a long digression into whether that phrase had ever actually been sung, and if so when it had arisen.

Getting back to the original issue:
Thank you, Joe, for the full text of the version concerned. Given the context, and the many substantial differences between that version and more typical versions, it seems to me that "olive green" is the most plausible immediate precursor of "oil of green", though it would be wonderful to have an intermediate version of the whole ballad, on its way to becoming Mrs. Knuckles' version.

Richard

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 02:14 PM

FWIW, the OED lists no "oil of green".

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 02:44 PM

Just remember!!

Some years ago, when I was working in the Production Illustration department of the Boeing Airplane Company (day job), one of the other illustrators was a woman from Texas. She had such a strong Southern accent that sometimes it wasn't real easy to figure out what she was saying.

One day as a bunch of us were sitting around a drawing table eating lunch, she was talking about the old family homestead in Texas. She mentioned that they actually had "three all wails" on their property.

Wot the hell is an "all wail?"

It took a few minutes to figure out that she was talking about "three oil wells!"

Makes the theory that the original words in the ballad were "olive green" quite likely. And I suspect that regional accents and dialects are responsible for a lot of mondegreens.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 02:50 PM

Or ". . . all of green. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 03:54 PM

Hi, Michael - well, I think that the "oil of green" DID come from Mrs. Knuckles because of her distinctive wording in other places, but I may be wrong.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 05:06 PM

In that case, Joe, what did you mean in your last post by "BUT from a misunderstanding by Sharp"?

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 19 Nov 13 - 09:36 PM

Guest "me to you"

My apologies, I my post was not intended to suggest that you were totally wrong.

Being not American and having never sighted your reference document, the phrase " oil of green " appears to make no sense. My suggestion of "olive green" and Don's "all of green" might appear to make more sense.

Your reply seems to indicate that you have taken no offence at my suggestion and I'm glad, as no offence was intended. I am also sure that you are more than capable of defending yourself.

That said there will always be some self righteous, pedantic fecker who thinks you cannot.

Best regards

Chris

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 12:01 AM

Michael, what I typed was, as you say, " I think it's clear that the "oil of green" must have come from Mrs. Delie Knuckles, but from a misunderstanding by Sharp." What I meant to type was, "I think it's clear that the "oil of green" must have come from Mrs. Delie Knuckles, and not from a misunderstanding by Sharp."


....and I can't quite figure out why the words that come out of my fingers, are not the ones that are running through my head. Could it be old age? You should know - you're a lot older than I am. It's just this wicked life I've led, I think....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 04:14 AM

Ah, well, Joe ~~ I was ½ right then: there had to be a 'not' missing somewhere.
Ah, yay, all this old·age kick ~~ so don't forget to keep singing, as the poet enjoins:

An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress                        

            ~ William Butler Yeats ~
          Sailing to Byzantium

~M~

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 09:34 AM

"Oil of green" doesn't sound much like "olive green", but they don't look that different when written down. Hand-written ballad lyrics (song-ballets) were common in Appalachia, and it seems quite likely that the "oil" version came from a simple mis-reading of such a (possibly mis-spelled)song-ballet.

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Crowhugger
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 10:56 PM

Here's possibly a little flight of fancy or possibly an explanation...

If "oil of green" is short for "oil of wintergreen", it's conceivably a reference to a particular leather, or a colour from natural dye. I searched on "fabric dye" and "oil of wintergreen" and came across the following:

Family Betulaceae Birches
order: Fagales
•Betula ◦B. lenta Beech, Cherry Birch - source of 'oil of wintergreen' (actually oil of birch)
◦B. pendula Silver Birch - sap used for syrup, wine and vinegar; tar used for dressing Russian leather; leaves used medicinally and for dyes; oil used for medicated soaps

I understand from past reading about herbs and natural dyes (too long ago to recall specific sources) that lower-grade results were/are often available by using related plants, which was/is done if the ideal plant was/is unavailable or too expensive. And plant both common and scientific plant names vary over time and geography, so "oil of (winter)green" may have had variant meanings over time and geography too.

url for the page is http://www.campin.me.uk/Food/related-plant-list.html (Small world, looking up something to inform my post on mudcat and getting a web result to Jack Campin's page.)

Of course if the words really aren't "oil of green" or if they aren't short for "oil of wintergreen", then none of the above is relevant.

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 05:16 AM

Isn't the bottom line here that many singers and performers have a NEED to make sense of what they sing? And they will do it in different ways -- by substituting something that makes sense to them or by searching for vindication for the original.

Others cherish the apparent oddities that can appear in original sources, but would perhaps explain them whilst also retaining them.

And others still may go for a complete rewrite, or plunder a suitable verse from elsewhere.

Chaque a son gout. (Minus accents, for which - apologies.)

(Mind you, I draw the line at attempts to save the wee footpage from all that running and swimming -- "Then he pinged a text to his maister dear/Asleep aneath a tree.".....)

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 06:04 AM

MacGroves?

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 08:33 AM

Apologies for the "French" in my previous post -- should be 'Chacun a son gout' (still without accents) but it's a long time since i left school!

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 09:57 AM

I bet the supposed 'dressed oil of green' was

dress-ed all in green

with dress-ed getting two syllables in the old-fashioned way.

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 10:45 AM

I quite like my salads dressed in oil of green. Not sure about my Mattys...

:D

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 12:23 PM

Wintergreen (methyl salicylate) is used medicinally, not as a dye. If you treated your clothes with it they would probably poison you when you wore them for the first time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_salicylate

Subject: RE: Mathy Groves - oil of green
From: Crowhugger
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 05:12 PM

I like leeneia's best so far.