Sexual jealousy:why ask this question-Matty Groves

Subject: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: TinaP
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:33 PM

The cuckolded Lord Arnold (Donald, Arlin, etc.) in "Matty Groves" asks his wife, "who do you like better, little Matty Groves or me?". Ack! Why would you ask this question? Myself, I would really rather not know. I'd rather go on in blissful ignorance. Men whom I have asked say that guys just want to know. I don't get it. Anyway, in the song, the answer leads to Lord Arnold's rage and the murder of his wife. The question also occurs in "Gypsy Davey". Admittedly, it furthers the plot, but I request your help in understanding why ask?

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:35 PM

I always assume they'd prefer me, so never ask. Just in case I get the wrong answer ☺☺
Giok

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:38 PM

So would he have killed his wife if she'd said Matty was useless and her lord was the better? I suspect he could live with the cuckolding but not the knowledge that he was inferior, after all, he was the better class.

Just goes to prove, it's not just what you're given, but what you do with what you've got.

LTS

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:39 PM

He was flexing his power. Probably a tone of sarcasm.

~S~

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:40 PM

And what happens if she pauses to think and then responds, "Well, now...Jake, down in the stables, is pretty good...and then Harry, that bartender at the Spotted Kilt, he's FINE...Bill over Lord D'Arcy's place, you know, the swineherd? he's good too...and then there's...hmmm...that's a pretty good question, ya know?"

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:44 PM

And that little understairs maid, she's REALLY cute.....

Sorry.. getting out of hand....

LTS

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:45 PM

Or, "Neither one of ya is worth the powder ta blow ya to hell, okay? But when a girl's got an itch, ya know, any port in a storm...."

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:50 PM

Well, he gave me the pox; all you did was catch it.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:53 PM

Who cares?

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: stallion
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:57 PM

I once confronted my wife and got the reply "don't ask questions you don't want to know the answer to" now I don't!

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:59 PM

And when she asks, don't say a word.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: gnomad
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:16 PM

We are assuming here that a guy who has just found out that he has been cuckolded, and has just fought to the death the other guy (who did it) is in the state of mind to ask a rational question. In those circumstances he could be excused for asking almost anything.

What exercise me is; what on earth posesses the wife to reply as she does..death wish, or what?

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:17 PM

.........all goes to prove what I've always suspected, like all the other sentient life on earth- humans ain't supposed to be magnanimous!!

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:17 PM

.......or nomogamous even!!

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: TinaP
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:24 PM

Matty Groves is full of decisions poorly made, from the MG's first decision to go home with Lord Arlen's wife.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:26 PM

I certainly wouldn't want my wife to expect me to be nomogomous!

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:30 PM

absolutely!!- life's too short for all that nomogomy- soooo nomotonous!- variety being de spice ob life!!

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: gnomad
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:34 PM

Nomogamy - Is that a life without cats?

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM

No pussy?
That would surely make a man wanna kill sumptin, huh?

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:28 PM

She never thought to run and hide, nor did she make excuses,

She said the one thing guaranteed to make Arlen blow his fuses.



So she got herself and Matty killed by being a stupid hen --

But what else but a brainless slut would go for Manly Men?



-- Leslie Fish, "Manly Man Matty Groves"

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: The bottom line is in hell. :||

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 09:17 PM

Remember in a few versions, Lord Whatsis kills both of them! But usually he wants his wife to just suffer, knowing her carelessness and greed did in not only the fun, but the lover.

Things (and motives) are a little different today, but an angry, jealous husband may not make much sense as he seeks retribution..

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: TinaP
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 10:42 PM

Some of this assumes that the Mrs. is at fault. One of my favorite MG threads here is the "Who is the baddie?" discussion
MG: who is the baddie?

Part of my thinking on this question revolves around class issues and presupposes that Lord Whatiz assumes that he is better, in all realms, than little MG. I wonder why we don't have any more Americanized versions of this ballad....without the peerage. Scholars indicate that MG is sung in the US but not in the UK anymore. I am going to think about how the story might be narrated if it were in Kentucky.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:21 AM

Look, in the version I know, when Lord Arlen catches them, FIRST he kills Matty, and then puts the question to Lady Arlen. She looks at Lord Arlen standing there with a bloody sword, and says "Naah, I still prefer Matty!'

The world is a better place without idiots, even if they are sexy.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:26 AM

Sorry, I forgot the question.

A rhetorical question:
"This is going to happen to anyone other than me that you bonk. Would you rather have a dead lover or a live husband?"

"A dead lover!"

Thrust.

serve the silly cow right.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:24 AM

It doesn't sound like an attempt to further a relationship, as for "*Bronc Rider Sex" so the answer must be

that the question had to be asked and
the questionhad to be answered
so that there'd be a reason for a murder.

If there wasn't a murder, it wouldn't be a folk song.



*Bronc Rider Sex as explained by an old cowboy:

"You get on doggie style and grab her by her breasts.

"Then you say

"         'I think your sister's are a bit bigger'
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
"--- and then you try to stay on for 8 seconds."

John

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:45 AM

This song was made in a period of history when wives were considered as much possessions than they were human beings. Marriages often were arranged, certainly among the nobility, as a means of acquiring property and status. This theme is a common on in the ballads - Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor, The Two Sisters, The Seven Gypsies, Tiftie's Annie et al.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Hamish
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:46 AM

Yep, Gurney, I'm sure you're right. I've never had a problem over this aspect of the song. He clearly knows that she preferred little Matty when he was alive. Now that he's killed him, Lord Arnold has proved his manliness and power (the alpha-male thing) and says - probably with a sneer - okay, so who do you prefer now?

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:00 AM

But why would he think that killing MG would change her mind as to who was the better lover? The only thing that might do is to make her want to really hit him where it hurts, in the ego.

Anyway, once Mattie's dead would she want to live - we're always hearing about those who die for love, in one way or another.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:14 AM

I suspect that once the "little page boy" knew, Lord Whatsis knew the story would get out, and HAD to 'defend his honor'....but killing wives is not always convenient. He may not have a clue where he'd get another, and SHE probably knew she'd be 'safe', even if she mocked her husband.

You can bet there are 'marriages of convenience' not much different today....not ALL involving murder...but....

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:21 AM

That's the question the hurt husband always asks on the soap operas. Come to think of it, so do the hurt wives.
It starts in childhood - "Mom always liked you better"

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:28 AM

There's an old maxim in the legal profession that goes, "Never ask anything thing in court if you don't already know the answer."

Same thing applies here....

And Lord Arlen -- what happened to him after that? Does the record say?

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: open mike
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:06 AM

is MG really Matty Groves? or Martin Gibson? or Mary Garvey?
so many MG's, so little time,,

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:18 AM

indeed!

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:26 AM

You have to do something at folk festivals.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:47 AM

I'd rather a kiss from Martin Gibson's lips?????? No way. Not even Michael Goldrick.

I think the answer to the original question is that Lord Whatever came out with the mediaeval equivalent of "now stitch that".

"A grave, a grave, Lord Whatsit cried
To put these lovers in,
But bury my lady at the top
For she was a decent skin".

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:17 AM

Perhaps it gave her the chance to salvage the relationship, if she chose to. Apparently, she chose to die, since her answer, clearly, provoked that response.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:58 AM

It's an Elizabethan folksong, for God's sake! It is supposed to be full of bad decisions and end up in bloody disaster. That's what made a good song in those days.

They'd be scratching their heads if they could hear you people now. They'd figure that you were all utterly devoid of any sense of romantic drama.

Japanese stories usually end with death all around too.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: GUEST,who prefers to remain anonymous at this tim
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:34 PM

It happened to me in real life. I responded with a line from a song: "Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies." But then he came back with the next line from that same song: "If you ever get hit with a bag of shit be sure to close your eyes." Then we laughed it off.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: TinaP
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:43 PM

Have you seen the movie, Closer? It reminds me of a ballad full of "romantic" drama. And the very same question....who is better, him or me? The questionner, by the way, fights for and wins the lady, however without bloodshed.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: TinaP
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:42 PM

I asked this question months ago; came accross this article today which explains it all ;-} .....being the academic I am, I will at least read it. So then I will know if my friends are correct who say, "a man just wants to know [who do you like better, little Matty Groves or me?].    If anyone wants to see the whole thing, send me an email at [e-mail]
Good weekend to you all.....Tina

Title: A review of sex differences in sexual jealousy, including self-report data, psychophysiological responses, interpersonal violence, and morbid jealousy
Author(s): Harris CR
Source: PERSONALITY AND SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY REVIEW 7 (2): 102-128 2003
Document Type: Review
Language: English
Cited References: 128      Times Cited: 23      Find Related Records Information
Abstract: The specific innate modular theory of jealousy hypothesizes that natural selection shaped sexual jealousy as a mechanism to prevent cuckoldry, and emotional jealousy as a mechanism to prevent resource loss. Therefore, men should be primarily jealous over a mate's sexual infidelity and women over a mate's emotional infidelity. Five lines of evidence have been offered as support: self-report responses, psychophysiological data, domestic violence (including spousal abuse and homicide), and morbid jealousy cases. This article reviews each line of evidence and finds only one hypothetical measure consistent with the hypothesis. This, however is contradicted by a variety of other measures (including reported reactions to real infidelity). A meta-analysis of jealousy-inspired homicides, taking into account base rates for murder found no evidence that jealousy disproportionately motivates men to kill. The findings are discussed from a social-cognitive theoretical perspective.
KeyWords Plus: OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE DISORDER; UNITED-STATES; GENDER DIFFERENCES; EVOLUTIONARY; INFIDELITY; PERSPECTIVE; PSYCHOLOGY; AGGRESSION; FLUOXETINE; STRENGTH

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM

It's the old problem, nature says yes and society says no.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:33 PM

and always remember, those studies show only the tendencies, averages and generalities. They don't deal with the many exceptions.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: TinaP
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:28 PM

Good point Bill D. So one question might be: do the balladeers sing about the generalities or the exceptions? What makes the ballads memorable: we can relate to them or they are extraordinary? Thanks for a new way of looking at this.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy: why ask this question?
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 02:53 AM

Hey, the poor bastard died for a piece of tail. Let him have something.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy:why ask this question-Matty Groves
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 06:04 PM

I once read a book about medieval life. It pointed out that with life spans so much shorter, everybody was a kid. When we read about lords and kings, we picture mature individuals (Richard Burton in "Camelot" is a good example.)

In the middle ages, people grew up fast and died young. We might picture Lord Arlen as 35, but the ballad writer was probably visualizing 19-year-old with raging hormones, little self control, and a few beers in him.

The English nobility had an unusual tradition for the time - they let their daughters get as old as 20 before they married them off. Other people married them off at 14 or so. Depending on where exactly the lady came from, she could have been just a kid by our standards. No wonder the wasn't cagey.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy:why ask this question-Matty Groves
From: Kara
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 07:53 PM

I do not see how you are drawing the conclusion that Lord Arnaulds wife was in anyway in love with Matty. they way I see it is this. Husband (as leeneia points out about 19 nad clearly prefers to spend the Holday off chassing wild life instead of staying home with the misses and showing her a bit of wild life) has gone out after a bit of a row. Mrs Arnauld goes to church and there she spies youg Matty Groves (played by a young Johnny Depp please) walking in the crowd. No mention of any previous just a simple case of husband gone to play cowboys and Indians I am going to shag Johnny Depp. Matty is not even sure who this women is, he says he won't go because he believes her to be Lord Arnauld wife, from the rings that she is wearing, so it would seem that there has been no previous.
Meanwhile the serving man who was probally counting on taking advantage of his masters absents goes running off and grasses to Lord arnauld, who has not caught anything and is beginning to wish he had staded home.
Home he goes Matty some what repleat from over exhaustive physical activities doesn't stand a chance, having killed the poor lad, LA is sure that Mrs A is going to think he is really clever so asks her the question in question. She is well miffed as she has just found a better shag that the grassing serving lad and simply to spit her husband says that Matty was the better shag... silly girl.

Subject: RE: Sexual jealousy:why ask this question-Matty Gr
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:08 PM

I'm not sure if Mattie Groves has been done to death more times in song, or in Mudcat threads....