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BS: The Pope in America
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:51 PM Creationism is not a theory. Get your own word for it. A theory requires a large body of evidence. That is not possible for creationism. " Some people are just so absolutely sure they're right, that they're absolutely certain everybody else must be wrong. It's a phenomenon common to all who see only black and white, no grey." Very true. No true scientist is ever absolutely sure they're right about anything. No true atheist (not forgetting that we're your invention, by the way) is ever absolutely certain that there is no God. I'm supposed to be one of them thar militant atheists, but I don't know whether there's a God or not, and neither does Richard Dawkins. The people who express certainty are the people of religion. You start your day with "Our Father who art in heaven". No maybe, no quite possibly, no probably. Worse, you teach your children to chant those self-same words of absolute certainty as well, even though you have no evidence that there is either a heaven or a God. It's good to agree, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: akenaton Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:41 PM Well I was intending to "retire" :0( |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: DMcG Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:22 PM Not sure if it means anything to Americans, Ake, but the phrase "lighting the blue touch paper" comes to mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: akenaton Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:06 PM I think Greg was referring to pete Joe, but there isn't really ANY science about how the universe originated. In fact Creationism is as good a theory as any scientific one. As I said before we shall be extinct before we come anywhere near acquiring scientific knowledge on what it is all about. It involves problems and consequences that humanity is much too puny to even contemplate |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:49 PM Wait! Wait! I can't watch the game without a scorecard. Who's dismissing science? McGrath? I don't think so. -Joe- Richard Bridge sez; It's a bit odd that so many god-botherers seem to feel that their fantasy allows them to dictate what others do and should believe I don't think it has anything to do with being a "god-botherer." Some people are just so absolutely sure they're right, that they're absolutely certain everybody else must be wrong. It's a phenomenon common to all who see only black and white, no grey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Greg F. Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:43 PM Would it be wholly wrong to suggest that because YOU can't get your head around it, you prefer to dismiss science as a "holy book" to be "believed" rather than a rational, fact-based explanation of what actually is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:21 PM Would it completely wrong to suggest that, like most of us, Shimrod, you can't actually get your head round that stuff, but that to a considerable extent you accept it because you put your trust in those who do appear to understand it? In some ways Cosmology is a branch of Metaphysics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:15 PM "Citing a holy book as evidence ..." I am not citing the book, that I recommended to Pete, as "evidence". He continually questions whether the Universe can have come from nothing. Modern cosmology suggests that, at the very least, it might well have done. I thought that, rather than tying myself in knots trying to convey my imperfect understanding of modern cosmology to Pete, he get 'chapter and verse' directly from the pen of an expert. Anyway, if he is presumptuous enough to challenge the findings of modern scientists he should at least make the effort to find out for himself what their findings are and how they interpret those findings (rather than relying on heavily biased 'interpretations' posted on creationist websites). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:49 AM I meant on this forum Greg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Greg F. Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:43 AM I do not see such venom from the other side. Then you've got your eyes closed, Professor. The Westboro Baptist Church and the clowns with their faked Planned Parenthood videos & campaign are but two examples of an untold many. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:40 AM Do they Richard? And why the sneering, contemptuous language against people of faith? I do not see such venom from the other side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:25 AM I's a bit odd that so many god-botherers seem to feel that their fantasy allows them to dictate what others do and should believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Oct 15 - 07:54 AM Citing a holy book as evidence is no more conclusive when it's written by an eminent scientist than in any other case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:57 AM Pete, you wrote: "Of course, if you can demonstrate a universe from nothing ..." Well rather us going round and round in boring circles, here's a bit of homework for you. If you REALLY want to know if a universe can come from nothing, try reading a book called, "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence M. Krauss. The publisher is Simon & Schuster UK and the paperback edition is readily available on the British high street. The author is Foundation Professor in the School of Earth and Space Exploration and the Physics Department at Arizona State University. 1. If you DO actually read it and you have any questions then, in the first instance, I suggest that you direct them to Prof. Krauss and then report back to us on his answers. 2. I bet that you DON'T read it because it might contain concepts that you DON'T want to know about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:28 PM Steve, I don't know how to answer that without running around in a circle with you, like two dogs chasing each others' tails. It seems to me that if what I said about Jesuits is true, then Jesuits would be a happy lot, proud and content to be members of a religious order that treasures wisdom so highly. I know a lot of Jesuits, and most of them are congenial, happy, interesting people with fascinating intellects. Generally, they enjoy being Jesuits and enjoy living in religious communities that are active in education and in social justice activities. To my mind, they're good people who love a good, intelligent, open discussion. Over the years, I've known some Jesuits who are arrogant sons of bitches - but not many of them. But that's my experience. Your results, no doubt, may vary. And yes, Pete from Seven Stars Link, I believe in the incarnation and the resurrection. All Christians do, and it's quite insulting to imply otherwise. As for condemnation, it does seem that for some Christians, a primary pastime is condemning the actions of others while failing to examine the morality of their own actions. Pete says: To say that believers invented God , seems to me to be begging the question. That's true, but I'd avoid using "majority belief" as proof of the existence of God. If there is no God, then believers must have created God (or however the straw-splitters want to parse that concept). But if there is a God, then God exists independent of belief. Neither side can prove itself right, or the other wrong. Proving non-existence is a well-nigh impossible task, as is the converse. e.g. I don't buy either argument. It's a matter of believing or not believing. And not something worth arguing about, because the argument is circular and therefore futile. Don't judge me on what I believe. That's my business. Judge me on who I am and what I do. Yes, my beliefs are part of that - but not really something that anyone else can understand with any degree of adequacy or fairness. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:16 PM What I mean is that a philosophy that requires real evidence as its sine qua non would rule out God as a likely entity. Nothing ever put forward in the history of humanity comes anywhere close to passing the evidence test. If what Joe claims about the Jesuits is even remotely true, the members would abandon the order in droves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:04 PM You mean because you believe that a philosophy if education like that has to mean concluding that you are right and those who see things differently are wrong, Steve? The trouble is, whatever you believe you find yourself having to decide that things that seem completely impossible are somehow true. That applies every bit as much to a God-free understanding of the world as to a God-centred understanding |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Greg F. Date: 07 Oct 15 - 06:37 PM Well, I don't think anyone would deny having a "god" Greg Guess again - billions would disagree with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Oct 15 - 05:19 PM Hmmm. If that's the philosophy of Jesuit education, there wouldn't be any Jesuits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 07 Oct 15 - 03:18 PM Oh dear. Here we go again! "To say that believers invented God ,..." No, Pete, people invented God and then people (not necessarily the same people) chose to believe in Him. "Of course, if you can demonstrate a universe from nothing ..." The scientific evidence, SO FAR, suggests the possibility of a universe from nothing (or something similar)but I'm sure that there's lots more theorising and evidence gathering to go. On the other hand, there's no evidence for the existence of a creator ... Of course, Pete, if you can demonstrate that a creator exists ...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: akenaton Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:57 PM Well, I don't think anyone would deny having a "god" Greg....just means different things to different people. My "god" at present is the sun, as in Scotland it is all powerful and almost always invisible :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Greg F. Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:48 PM As historically the existence of God has been obvious to the majority Say whut? Evidence, please..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:46 PM To say that believers invented God , seems to me to be begging the question. As historically the existence of God has been obvious to the majority, I think , there is nothing amiss about evidence deniers being termed atheist. Of course, if you can demonstrate a universe from nothing I shall have to desist challenging your assertions.....................joe can I infer that you do traditionally believe in the incarnation and resurrection from your comments. And as to condemnation, " there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus ...." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Greg F. Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:10 PM No, I was hoping to provoke thought. Thought? Keith? Now THERE'S yer problem... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:00 PM "What were you hoping to provoke? An argument?" No, I was hoping to provoke thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:58 PM That's the philosophy, Greg. That ideal is not always achieved. It's true that attendance has gone down in "mainline" churches in Europe and North America over the last 50 years. Social obligation no longer demands church attendance. As a result, it seems to me that the people who go to church, are there because they want to be. That lack of social obligation makes for a deeper spirituality. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Greg F. Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:50 PM the Jesuit philosophy of education, which emphasizes "critical thinking." Only up to a point, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:48 PM Steve Shaw says: the ability to be critical and discriminating. To demand evidence and to [be] skeptical. To sort the wheat from the chaff. The freedom to think for yourself, not to accept the things you're being told that are based merely on tradition, hearsay, edicts from holy men, witness, miracles or selected ancient texts of dubious authorship. Interestingly, that's a pretty good summary of the Jesuit philosophy of education, which emphasizes "critical thinking."
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Greg F. Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:47 PM Have you got any evidence to back up that statement, Keith? Evidence? EVIDENCE !?? He don't need no steenkin' EVIDENCE!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Oct 15 - 11:58 AM I use the term "atheist" to describe those who have no faith or spiritual belief. They are a minority in this and every other country. Why do you need to be "provocative" about belief? What were you hoping to provoke? An argument? That being so, what is your objection to me challenging your pronouncements? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 07 Oct 15 - 11:49 AM Oh, I wouldn't like to put you to any bother, Keith! Actually, I tend to agree with McGrath that: "Playing numbers games isn't really too relevant here." I also agree with Steve (I agree with him a lot!) that God botherers invented atheists - hence, I do not accept the label "atheist". Finally, describing the Pope as a "shaman" was supposed to be provocative! But why should it be offensive? After all, aren't shamans supposed to be intermediaries or messengers between the human world and the supernatural world? Isn't that what Christian priests claim to be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:42 AM "To sort the wheat from the chaff". This religious stuff does keep on sneaking in, doesnt it, Steve? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:36 AM Have you got any evidence to back up that statement, Keith? Yes Shim. I discussed this exact issue with Musket some months ago, and produced evidence from polls, surveys and the census. I could soon find it again if you like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:21 AM Playing numbers games isn't really too relevant here. It's questionable whether the primary reason it can make sense to pay attention to what Pope Francis says, even when you aren't a Catholic, is because there are a billion or so Catholics on the planet. The Dalai Lama doesn't have those millions, and yet writing off as "a shaman" would be a bit silly (even aside from the distinctly dubious ideology implied by the use that term in that sneering sense, as Joe tactfully pointed out). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:15 AM Bums on Sunday pews is about the most objective measure of a country's religiosity. Which makes the UK a very irreligious country. Atheism is an artificial construct in the minds of believers. They invented us. You could say that every animal and plant and microbe becomes an atheist as soon as someone comes along to say that there's a God. Then the more deluded of them, all humans as it happens, join that someone's club and stop being the thing that the club had to invent. Suppose there was a planet out there inhabited by super-intelligent beings to whom the possibility of a God's existence had never occurred. There would be no atheists on that planet. But as soon as one of them declares that there's a God, then anyone who doesn't sign up with him is an atheist. He invented atheism on that planet. You can't have atheists without believers. When you invent God you also invent atheists. Oddly, the new atheists won't feel any different, do any different or think any different, even though they are now something they weren't before. Anyone who says they are certain there is no God isn't thinking straight. I'm an alleged atheist (I don't know of any more convinced ones than me) but I don't know whether there's a God or not, and Richard Dawkins agrees with me. So there really isn't much point asking people if they're atheists. They may not know. More likely, going from the pathetic bums on pews figures, they may not care. They'll say anything just to get rid of the interviewer. Hope this helps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Ed T Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:35 AM " I thought that, in this country (UK) at least, church attendance has been falling, consistently, for decades?" Just because persons do not belong to, or even attend, a church, it does not automatically put them in the "Atheist" camp. It may merely mean that some, or even many, no longer have a need to follow an organized religion, nor visit a church to satisfy their "God believing" needs. There are more accurate avenues to determine belief statistics than this single one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:10 AM "Remember that atheists are a minority in every country." That's debatable. Have you got any evidence to back up that statement, Keith? Off the top of my head and, admittedly, without evidence to hand, I thought that, in this country (UK) at least, church attendance has been falling, consistently, for decades? And priests are a minority in every country ... so to follow your 'logic' we must ignore them too! "You express contempt for religious belief, but many believers are even more intelligent than you!" There are lots of people more intelligent than me Keith (why, there may be some who are even more intelligent than you!)but does that mean that I should not have an opinion? Are people with exceptionally high IQs the only ones entitled to an opinion? I also wonder what mental gymnastics one has to go through to be both intelligent and gullible? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:10 AM Shimrod asked why anyone should pay attention to the pope. My answer was reasonable. He has influence with millions. Much more than many or most politicians. Remember that atheists are a minority in every country. You express contempt for religious belief, but many believers are even more intelligent than you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Oct 15 - 06:56 AM Q? Dunno how that happened. Another post lost to the ether. What I said was I told the chimney sweep this morning that it wasn't worth paying him, as the world was about to end and he'd have no use for the money. Unfortunately, he asked for evidence, and all I could muster was the pronouncements of a man I didn't know. Damn. I think I'm going to have to give up this religion lark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM Q |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 07 Oct 15 - 05:44 AM With reference to Richard Bridge's 'First Cuckoo of Spring' posting above, I'm completely relaxed about religious nut cults predicting the end of the world (they consistently get it wrong because they're nuts). Nevertheless, if, in the next few days, the Turks shoot down a Russian Mig fighter, that has strayed into Turkish air-space from Syria, all bets are off! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Oct 15 - 05:03 AM Popes, Shamans, Albanian nuns and archbishops of Canterbury can all be fonts of wisdom. Only a fool would dismiss everything they said or did as idiotic or evil. Even Mussolini got the trains right. But you don't need to expect wisdom to be expressed only in your own terms to see that they can also all be fonts of damaging nonsense. What you need is those skills that religious instruction seeks to deny you: the ability to be critical and discriminating. To demand evidence and to sceptical. To sort the wheat from the chaff. The freedom to think for yourself, not to accept the things you're being told that are based merely on tradition, hearsay, edicts from holy men, witness, miracles or selected ancient texts of dubious authorship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:58 AM I tend to think that some Shamans can be a font of wisdom, learned from generations of tradition and experience. Those who expect wisdom to be expressed only in their own terms, isolate themselves from a wide spectrum of thought. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Oct 15 - 06:28 PM Is this the first cuckoo of spring? http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10/06/armageddon-christian-group-predicts-end-world-wednesday_n_8251552.html?1444143180 |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 06 Oct 15 - 04:51 PM "Shim, you ask why he has influence with millions. It is because he leads are church with millions of members." As a wise man once said: "Eat shit - a million flies can't be wrong!" "There may well be qualitative differences between you [the Pope] and a Shaman, but there are plenty of similarities. For a start, you both promote belief in things that are not there." Spot on, Steve! That's exactly what I was trying to say. Religious faith = A fervent and unquestioning belief in something invisible for the existence of which there's no evidence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Oct 15 - 03:38 PM Mother Teresa's faith was her affair. It is what she did that matters. If there are positive sides to her legacy, I applaud that. But her actions in life did not inform that legacy. I repeat. Watch the Hitchens video from start to finish. Much that it contains is incontrovertible, whether you like it or not, and whether you like him or not. To refuse to see it is sheer denial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Oct 15 - 03:31 PM Stop wriggling, Keith. You know very well what Shimrod meant. "We hear you, Mr Pope - we can hardly avoid hearing you - but we do not necessarily have to act on what you say. There may well be qualitative differences between you and a Shaman, but there are plenty of similarities. For a start, you both promote belief in things that are not there." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Greg F. Date: 06 Oct 15 - 03:27 PM I doubt if there's another single person with so much financial clout. Now wait a minute, what about Donald Trump? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Oct 15 - 02:59 PM Dave the Gnome's link to the article in the Globe and Mail was simply a restatement of the Hitchens "expose," so I tend not to believe it. To me, it seems to be more of the same exaggerated muckraking. Although my sense of fair play demands me to defend her, it's hard for me to defend Mother Teresa with much enthusiasm. I didn't like her, and I was not inspired by her, and she was a standard bearer for the conservatives who expend so much effort me make me feel I don't belong in the church I was raised in. And the same goes for John Paul II. For both of them, it seemed that their faith was based on the dark side of spirituality. Both seemed to base their faith on the cross, not on the incarnation and the resurrection. There was gravity and severity and defensiveness to their faith, not the joy and openness and generosity that I experience. Mel Gibson is another one with their mindset. But yet, I can't say that their approach to faith is invalid - it's just that it is very different from mine. I think their approach should be considered - not condemned and (I hope) not espoused. I guess I'm just not "into" condemnation. I can only walk in my own shoes, so I'm careful not to condemn the path that others choose. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Oct 15 - 01:43 PM I would pay attention to the pronouncements of any of those Steve. Shim, you ask why he has influence with millions. It is because he leads are church with millions of members. I am surprised you did not know that. I also question everything Shim, but I would not pronounce someone revered by millions to be a glorified shaman. If I did, I would not expect anyone to pay attention. |