BS: Six Day War 50 Years On

Subject: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 03:29 PM

On this day 50 years ago the Israeli Army secured the Old City of Jerusalem, which had been in Jordanian hands since the War of Independence in May 1948.

In the 1970s I was a high school student lucky enough to make it on a student trip abroad. We were in Rome, getting a tour of some, well, ruins. Among them was the Arch of Titus, celebrating the Roman conquest of the remains of old Israel. Among the engravings on its side is a menorah (6 armed candelabra) being carried among the war booty. I don't know where I picked up the apocryphal story that no Jew would walk under the Titus Arch. It was a moot point when I was there as those ruins in particular well cordoned off.
Anyhow, our tour guide was an excellent Italian lady who at one point on the march mentioned that Rome on its own contained 400 churches. "How many synagogues?" I asked. With no pause whatsoever she answered "Four". Now I'm from Boston, which already had a wide ratio of churches to synagogues, but a 100 to 1 is impressive. I asked for the location of the biggest, and during my free time in the city I made it over. Noticed the police (or soldiers) with the submachine guns guarding it, we were already in the age of terrorism. It was a large building, I wasn't able to tell if it was in use for its original purpose or even if there was enough of a population left who knew what to use it for. But it was quiet and cool and had a gift shop. The woman behind the counter was pleased to chat with an American who knew no Italiano, and at one point I repeated to her my factoid that no Jew would walk under the Arch of Titus. With no pause whatsoever she said: "We can walk under it now. We have Jerusalem back!"

Fifty years ago today. Mazel Tov!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 03:43 PM

Fifty years on from most wars it's a matter of getting together with people on the other sides, and being sad for the past mistakes that brought about the war, and being happy things have moved on so it,s hard to imagine how it could have happened.

Pray that when it's the 100th anniversary that's how it will be with this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 06:58 PM

I just read that Israel had plans to detonate an atomic bomb on a Sinai mountaintop as a deterrent to its enemies. The war was over so quickly they didn't have time to put the device in place.

Can you imagine what the Near East would be like now if they had done that?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:52 AM

michaelr, you must be very gullible to believe shit like that!
Is there anything you would not believe Israel capable of?

The war was over so quickly they didn't have time to put the device in place.

They held the Sinai for many years after that war ended, so your claim is absurd bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM

"michaelr, you must be very gullible to believe shit like that!"
Lorra lorra fresh and forgotten information for the deniers to deny
And it's started already
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:39 AM

Israel held Sinai for years after the 1967 war.
The Sinai Peninsula was returned to Egypt in stages beginning in 1979 as part of the Israel–Egypt Peace Treaty.
Deny that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 09:34 AM

Ah yes, the great Sadat sellout to the West. A little later, a terrorist was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Dumped on the Palestinians too. Long shadows, eh? Did Egypt a lot of good too, didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 10:58 AM

"Did Egypt a lot of good too, didn't it?"

Well actually Shaw, yes it did - Egypt no longer had to finance Nasser's pan-Arabic dreams and bankroll wars aimed at the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of the Jewish populace.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 12:33 PM

"Deny that Jim?"
As usual, just the convenient bits Keith
I was referring to the forcing of prisoners to carry out executions and bury other captured prisoners, as evidenced in statements by Israeli soldiers' statements (among other things)
Plenty more in the press over the last few days
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-nuclear-bomb-six-day-war-sinai-egypt-use-weapon-syria-jordan-iraq-a7774921.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:24 PM

it was a war. stuff happens.
as the English soldiers they killed in the 40's could tell you. Israel plays hardball. always does . always did.

the Israel victory came as a surprise to everyone. Particularly to the surrounding states , who had been threatening to kick Israel into the sea for years.

I get anti-Israel e-mails with every post nowadays. Some are sent to me by good friends. Recently I heard Leon Rosselson call Israel 'a criminal state' from the stage.

I can't help but wonder if these vociferous critics ever take into account the many years and the two invasions made with the intention of destroying Israel.

I cannot see why they begrudge the jews one country. There are many muslim nations - none of which seem well governed or ruled humanely. if it were a case of enlightenment versus darkness, i could understand why the liberal left hate Israel and spend so much time cataloguing their shortcomings.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:27 PM

You don't have to believe me, Keith. Will you believe The Times of Israel?

"The report was based on an interview conducted by leading Israeli nuclear scholar Avner Cohen with retired IDF brigadier general Itzhak Yaakov, who reportedly oversaw the plan."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 09:26 PM

Being interested in, obviously, the Mideast, and also the history of nuclear arms, I saw the article in the New York Times addressing the topic of a newly released tale of Plan Samson, which was to arrange for the detonation of a nuclear device as a demonstration should the Arab countries around Israel: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, succeed in their invasion plans.
Not all fantastic stories are false. This one may be true, but some observations:

It is not settled history. This has just come out, and Israel is unlikely to provide technical information to flesh this story out.
1967 seems to be way early for Israel to have working nukes. In particular, the wording is "device" which means it was not weaponized (can't be carried in an airplane, for instance).
Israel has never detonated a muclear weapon. So in this story they would have have had no way to know it would work. Would you leave nuclear fixin's out in the open if you didn't know they'd work and the enemy was winning?

Remember that only six years later Israel was successfully invaded by Egypt (going into Israeli occupied Sinai) and there were no nukes evident (except for Tom Clancy's novel: "Sum of All Fears" which made the very point of a nuke falling into hostile hands).

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 02:45 PM

"except for Tom Clancy's novel: "
From The Times of Israel - maybe Tom Clancy works for that paper
Jim Carroll

THE LAST SECRET OF THE 1967 WAR'
Report says Israel planned atomic detonation in Sinai if Six Day War went wrong
New York Times, quoting newly released interview, says the display of nuclear strength was a 'doomsday' scenario not needed after IDF victory
BY TIMES OF ISRAEL STAFF June 3, 2017, 11:31 pm 21
One the eve of the Six Day War, with the country surrounded by enemies and unsure of its future, Israel developed a "doomsday" plan to detonate an atomic bomb in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as a warning to the Arabs, The New York Times reported Saturday.
The report was based on an interview conducted by leading Israeli nuclear scholar Avner Cohen with retired IDF brigadier general Itzhak Yaakov, who reportedly oversaw the plan.
"It's the last secret of the 1967 war," Cohen told the paper.
The full interview is set to be published Monday, as the region marks the 50th anniversary of the war in which Israel defeated the combined Arab armies in just six days.
According to Yaakov, who oversaw weapons development for the Israel military and gave details of the plan to Cohen in 1999 and 2000 interviews, Israel was deeply fearful ahead of the war.
"Look, it was so natural," Yaakov said, according to the Times, which quoted a transcription of a taped interview. "You've got an enemy, and he says he's going to throw you to the sea. You believe him."
"How can you stop him?" Yaakov asked. "You scare him. If you've got something you can scare him with, you scare him."
Yaakov, who died in 2013 at age 87, detailed in the interview with Cohen how Israel developed a plan code-named "Shimshon," or Samson, to have helicopters and commandos fly an atomic device to a mountain top site about 12 miles from an Egyptian military complex at Abu Ageila.
"The plan, if activated by order of the prime minister and military chief of staff, was to send a small paratrooper force to divert the Egyptian Army in the desert area so that a team could lay preparations for the atomic blast," the report said.
"Two large helicopters were to land, deliver the nuclear device and then create a command post in a mountain creek or canyon. If the order came to detonate, the blinding flash and mushroom cloud would have been seen throughout the Sinai and Negev deserts, and perhaps as far away as Cairo."
Israel has never acknowledged having nuclear weapons, maintaining a policy of so-called nuclear ambiguity, neither publicly confirming nor denying the existence of an atomic arsenal. However, several top US officials have seemed to confirm it, most recently former secretary of state Colin Powell who wrote in a leaked private email that he believed Israel has some 200 nuclear weapons.
The Israeli Embassy in Washington declined to comment on the report or on Yaakov's role, The New York Times said.
If Israel had detonated a device, it would have been the first use of a nuclear weapon in a war situation since the US dropped the two bombs on Japan to end World War II.
On Monday, the Nuclear Proliferation International History Project of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington — where Cohen is a fellow — is releasing on a special website a series of documents related to the Israeli atomic plan.
In the transcripts, Yaakov describes a helicopter flight he made to the site with Israel Dostrovsky, the first director-general of the Israel Atomic Energy Commission, that had to be aborted after the Egyptians scrambled fighter jets.

If Israel had detonated a device, it would have been the first use of a nuclear weapon in a war situation since the US dropped the two bombs on Japan to end World War II.
On Monday, the Nuclear Proliferation International History Project of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington — where Cohen is a fellow — is releasing on a special website a series of documents related to the Israeli atomic plan.
In the transcripts, Yaakov describes a helicopter flight he made to the site with Israel Dostrovsky, the first director-general of the Israel Atomic Energy Commission, that had to be aborted after the Egyptians scrambled fighter jets.
"We got very close," Yaakov reportedly said. "We saw the mountain, and we saw that there is a place to hide there, in some canyon."
As it turned out, Israel's victory was swift and decisive and there was no need for any doomsday plan, but Yaakov still believed Israel should have gone ahead with it and openly declared its nuclear prowess.
"I still think to this day that we should have done it," he told Cohen, who is the author of "Israel and the Bomb" and "The Worst-Kept Secret."
In 2001, some 2 years after his conversations with Cohen, Yaakov was arrested in Israel and charged with passing secret information with intent to harm state security. The charges related to memoirs he wrote, the Haaretz daily reported in its obituary of Yaakov in 2013.
Yaakov was acquitted of the main charge but found guilty of the unauthorized handing over of secret information, Haaretz said, noting that he received a two-year suspended sentence.
The obituary hinted at the exploits in the Sinai Desert, saying that "Yaakov was one of Israel's leading officers in the field of weapons development during the build-up to the Six Day War and afterwards. During the war he was appointed to command a complex and unprecedented operation in the Sinai Peninsula, where he was to command both IAF pilots and a special ops unit. The IDF's rapid success in defeating the Egyptian army made the operation redundant and it was cancelled."
According to Cohen, he promised Yaakov he would find the right time to publish the information and now, on the 50th anniversary, he believed the time was ripe.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 03:22 PM

Thanks, Jim. That is the NYT article to which I was referring.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 03:40 PM

Good job it didn't 'go wrong'.
Though I suppose that depends on which side you're on.

If it had gone wrong - Israel would n't be anywhere near Sinai. They would have been in the Mediterranean. That remains the ambition of their opponents, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:08 PM

Al, to your earlier post: to be critical of Israel's policies is not to "begrudge the Jews one country". The issue was and remains Israel's systematic maltreatment of the Palestinian population. It is apartheid, pure and simple, and it must stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:46 PM

" It is apartheid, pure and simple, and it must stop."
I's gone beyond that Mike - it has reached the level of ethnic cleansing now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:06 PM

To call Israel an apartheid state is an expression of ignorance, anti-Semitism, and malice.

Israel is by far the most racially mixed and tolerant nation in the entire Muslim Middle East. Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel's population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens. The total equality of all Israelis is assured in Israel's founding document. All non-Jews (which means primarily Muslim Arabs) have full voting rights. At present, seventeen Arabs sit in Israel's Knesset (parliament). Arabs are represented in Israel's diplomatic service all over the world. Arab students may and do study in all Israeli universities. All children in Israel are entitled to subsidized education until graduation, without any restrictions based on color or religions. In short, Muslim Arabs and other non-Jews are allowed everything that Jews are allowed, everything that non-Whites were not allowed in apartheid South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 01:01 AM

I note that bobad's post does not contain the word "Palestinian".

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 02:29 AM

"I note that bobad's post does not contain the word "Palestinian"."
That's because he believes they don't exist or have no claim to land they have occupied for millenia
The also believes that to criticise Israel is "antisemitic, (which is Israel's main defence of its atrocities which is antisemitic by definition.
All revised definitions of the term condemn associating the acts of Israel with the Jewish people, yet Bobad and his ilk believe themselves o be above all rules and definitions.
The 'neuclear option' during the six-day war was confirmed in an article in yesterday's Irish Times
It is often forgotten that Israeli offered to assist Apartheid South Africa TO GO NUCLEAR.
Faced with the possibility of the downfall of the regime there, the South Africans turned the offer down as they didn't want such weapons "falling into the hands of the 'blecks'"
Birds of a feather
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:14 AM

The Israeli Arabs Bobad refers to are by definition "Palestinians."

Persecuted people have declining populations and victims of ethnic cleansing migrate.
That does not apply to Israeli Arabs, or West Bank Arabs, except the Christians that used to be part of the West Bank population but have been persecuted out.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:14 AM

"Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel's population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens"

You forgot to mention the fact that unemployment among Israeli Arabs is far higher than among Jews, that Arabs are far more likely to be stopped at checkpoints for hours or even days, that school buses won't go through Arab areas forcing the kids to walk miles to the edges of the towns, that school achievement is far lower, that housing is much poorer, that the average pay of Arabs is far lower than that of Jews, that the wall has robbed many Arab families of large portions of their farms. And so on. We've been here before.

So, as Arabs don't seem to be doing anywhere near as well as Jews in Israel, there can only be one of two explanations:

(a) Israeli Arabs are feckless, lazy people who bring all their problems on themselves (the exact argument used to defend white domination in Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa).

Or (b) Arabs in Israel are discriminated against.

Which is it, boobs?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 12:41 PM

I was in a hurry. I could have mentioned much lower life expectancy, much higher infant mortality, the fact that over a half of Arab families in Israel are defined as living in poverty, then there's the workplace discrimination based on the fact that Arabs haven't done military service, even in jobs unrelated to the military. And don't get me started on the tens of thousands of Bedouin Arabs living in "unrecognised villages" in the Negev (most of which predate 1948) who endure lack of water, electricity, sanitation and medical facilities. There have been no new Arab townships since 1948 despite a massive increase in population and the existing Arab areas generally endure poor infrastructure such as unmade roads and lack of medical facilities. Contrast that with those lovely new settlements exclusively for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:22 AM

Every country in the world has social issues and most worse than Israel's, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.

The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.

Egypt's Bedouin have a far worse existence than those in Israel, so again I question your motive for singling out Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:31 AM

Good heavens, Shaw, Carroll et al if as you claim things are so bad for Israeli Arabs under this regime of "ethnic cleansing" why are they not fleeing the place to the obvious paradise destinations just over the borders of Israel - Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Gaza?

Among all those refugees streaming across the Med how many of them are Israeli Arabs?

I can tell you why there is no exodus of Israeli Arabs, but I'd like to hear your explanation of a fact that completely contradicts everything you state about the lot of an Arab in Israel compared to anywhere else in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:43 AM

"Israel has a system of universal health care run by semi-private non-profit corporations heavily regulated by the government, whereas all citizens are entitled to the same Uniform Benefit Package."

"Israel's Arab population has a life expectancy of 75.9 years for males, and 79.7 years for females."

Jordan, male 72.5, female 75.9
Egypt, male 68.8, female 73.2
Lebanon male 73.5 female 76.5

Israel's Arabs are much better off than Arab Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:52 AM

"Good heavens, Shaw, Carroll e"
More talking down from a mental midget
They are not "fleeing" because it is their rightful home - only a bully would make such a suggestion.
Nobody has ever suggested a "paradise" of any sort except sarcastic thugs like you
Peopes homes are peoples homes wherever the are
These are people fighting being ethnic cleansed out of existence and you are suggesting they should fuck off elsewhere to avoid being wiped out - which sums the Israeli position up perfectly
None of which addresses the war crimes and atrocities that are regularly taking place by a criminal regime that has only avioded being brought to trial by the support of a war-criminal superstate using its U.N. veto
If Israel wasn't led by a criminal regime it would not need that veto and all the "decent democratic" nations would be protesting to the high heavens that their friend was being unjustly accused - none are - they are just keeping schtumm out of self-interest
ISRAEL'S WAR CRIMES
Now - where'd your howl of protest from these "decent, democratic nations"
No ?
Thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:53 AM

Excuse me, you clowns. My posts are a direct response to Bobad's claims apropos of perfect equality for Arab citizens in Israel. Your usual bleats about how much worse things are in other countries (which I have no interest in denying, by the way) are facile and childish. We should let off little Johnny for stealing little Mary's sweeties just because little Jimmy has been looking up the girls' skirts. That's how it goes. Just to remind you that one bloody good reason for a person not fleeing their country is that they were born there and all their family lives there. When we did we ever run our countries on the basis of if you don't like it here, especially if you're not in my ethnic group, just bugger off? By the way, the information I've provided is easily accessible from neutral sources, Teribus. Clasping your hands over your ears instead of looking it up for yourself just because I brought it up is piling childishness on childishness. Look it up. Not one word of it is made up. In fact, it's a fair bit worse than I said. Off you go now.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:56 AM

The clowns in question being Keith and Teribus, of course. I wonder whether Keith has typed that bigoted shite of his straight after he's been saying his Sunday prayers down the church...

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:02 AM

If "Palestine" is their "rightful" home Jom, why are there so many "Palestinians" cooped up in refugee camps in "Palestine"? Yet there is not one single Israeli Arab, or Jew, living in a refugee camp in Israel.

"Nobody has ever suggested a "paradise" of any sort except sarcastic thugs like you"

Shaw seemed to have suggested it while detailing the horrendous levels of discrimination and deprivation meted out to Israeli Arabs that apparently is not meted out to Arabs elsewhere.

Anyone suffering such treatment who does not actively take steps to correct the situation can only be regarded as a complete and utter cnut (Anag).

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM

What a stupid thing to say. Show me when I've ever suggested that any of the surrounding countries are paradise. And I didn't say "horrendous" either. I gave you factual information without exaggeration that is easily checkable. I note that you're still blustering on even though you're not bothering to check. Just grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:56 AM

Keith has typed that bigoted shite

Keith just typed facts.
You always resort to abuse when you lose Steve.

You can not challenge a single thing that I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:59 AM

Show me when I've ever suggested that any of the surrounding countries are paradise.

You always and only criticises Israel while ignoring the far worse record of all its neighbours.
Your motive for that is questionable indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:29 AM

What is "bigoted" Steve is always and only singling out for criticism the only Jewish State in the world while ignoring the far worse record of all its neighbouring states.
That is real "bigoted shite" Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:29 AM

"The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.

Egypt's Bedouin have a far worse existence than those in Israel, so again I question your motive for singling out Israel."

These are bigoted and racist remarks as you are telling Arabs in Israel, who are discriminated against, that they should be happy with their lot because other countries may treat them even worse. You are suggesting that Arabs moving out of their own native country, away from their homes and families, is a potential solution for their mistreatment. Shuddering echoes of apartheid South Africa and Iain Smith's Rhodesia there. Ugly. And my motive in contributing to this thread is to correct bobad's inaccurate comments about perfect equality for Arabs in Israel. I note that you have nothing to say about that, going off on a sidetrack as usual about how other countries are even worse. Both you and Teribus are happy to accept that blinkered stance without bothering to check the real facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:31 AM

"singling out for criticism the only Jewish State in the world"

Tell me, Keith - what's the subject of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:50 AM

""singling out for criticism the only "
The fact that is the "Jewish State in the world" is the very reason it needs to be "singled out"
Israel is largely made up of refugees from the worst act of genocide in the modern world
The various regimes who have ruled Israel in the manner they have, have betrayed those refugees and their dream of a world free of persecution such as that inflicted by the Nazis.
The final betrayal has been to commit war crimes and atrocities against other ethnic groups in the name of the Jewish People.
A long way from the comment of a holocaust survivor friend told me "never again - not to anybody"
The atrocities carried out by the Israelis are no different than those carried out elsewhere but they are a damn sight more dangerous to this planet as a whole as Israel is a wealthy state, well armed and protected to the extent of being nuclear facilitated.
The fact that its atrocities are carried out in order to expand its borders (go, look at the maps) makes their claim of "defence" a disgusting excuse, no better than those who used it to explain massacres such as Lidicé (go count the dead on both sides to see how "defensive" Israeli behaviour is)
some of Israel's fiercest and most vehement critics are Jews, from Einstein to former Mossad directors and Holocaust survivors and their descendants
Your disgusting excuse that it is wrong to critiscise Israel because it is "Jewish" or because other people do it is as low as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:13 AM

The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bubblyrat
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:14 AM

What memories do I have of 1967 and the "six day war "?? Well, at the time , I was serving aboard the aircraft-carrier HMS Eagle ,and about to leave for Aden ; however, the Suez canal was blocked by sunken ships and rendered impassable . Therefore, we were obliged to get to Aden the "long way round" , stopping at Ascencion Island to give aid to a badly-damaged US aircraft-carrier ,then having a short stay in Capetown,followed by an unscheduled stop at Gan ((Addu Atoll) in the Maldives in order to recover one of our Sea Vixens which had overshot the runway there, arriving ,eventually, in Singapore ,by which time the "six day war" was well and truly over ,and the Aden emergency was in its last throes. Facts from our 1967/68 commission ; distance travelled ; 112,000 miles ;fuel oil consumed ;220,000 tons.I don't know offhand how many gallons that is, or what our miles-per gallon ( or gallons per mile) figures were, but it was probably quite expensive!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:31 AM

"The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots."
There has ben no survey to suggest that those figures have not been snatched out of thee air but they are immaterial anyway
Israel is wealthier than its neighbors and it is inevitable that all who live there are better off
The Inequality Report has shown that Arabs are treated as second class citizens and that their rights as citizens are being eroded.
This is a fair summation of the rights of Arabs in Israel
Jim Carroll

While world attention is focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a crisis is brewing among Israel's own Arab citizens.
"This is not a democracy, it is an ethnocracy," complains Assad Ghanem, senior lecturer in political science at Israel's Haifa University.
Ghanem is an Arab Israeli, a descendent of the indigenous population that did not flee, or was not driven away during the war in 1948/49 when the Jewish state was founded.
Arab Israelis now make up some 20 percent of Israel's six million-plus population. In a country that defines itself as Jewish and that has always been in conflict with the surrounding Arab countries and with the Palestinians, the position of this minority has always been uncomfortable.
Since the outbreak of the current Intifadah in the West Bank and Gaza, relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel have worsened. The Arab minority was shocked and traumatized when the police killed 13 members of their community during demonstrations inside Israel during the early days of the Intifadah in September and October 2000.
The rest of the Israeli public was equally shocked by the pro-Palestinian demonstrations and by the subsequent increase in the number of Arab Israelis said to have been aiding Palestinian terror attacks inside the country.
This week the International Crisis Group (ICG), a non-governmental organization that aims to help resolve conflict situations issued a report on the tensions between Israel and its Arab citizens. It concluded that the problem has been ignored, relative to the attention focused on the country's relations with the Palestinians and the Arab countries. It also warned that further neglect could threaten the long-term stability of Israel.
Nowadays Assad Ghanem scoffs at being called an Arab citizen of Israel. "We are not full citizens, this country is only for the Jews," he told IPS. He has become markedly more disillusioned about the situation over the last couple of years. "The way the police killed our people in 2000 shows that we don't count, we don't even have the possibility to demand our rights."
The ICG report notes that the trouble "goes to the heart of Israel's self-definition as both a Jewish and a democratic state and because of the complex, multi-layered nature of inter-communal relations – an Arab minority living in a Jewish state that is in conflict with its far more populous Arab neighbors."
Ghanem agrees to an extent. He thinks the only solution is "regime change," meaning "the end of Jewish hegemony in Israel." The Jewish nature of the state, he says, can be expressed symbolically in things such as the flag and the national anthem. Short of that he sees no solution, since the Arab minority has nobody to talk to.
Yitzhak Reiter, a political scientist at Jerusalem's Hebrew University who specializes in the country's Arab minority agrees to a degree. Neither Jews nor Arabs are willing at the moment to compromise on their demands, which means they are set on an inevitable collision course, he told IPS.
The Jewish majority is not willing to compromise on what it regards as the essential attributes of a Jewish state, while the Arab minority too often wants to eliminate all practical expressions of the Judaism of the state.
Reiter thinks this can be resolved eventually if, as the ICG recommends, an inclusive dialogue is started between the groups. The end result, he believes, could be a state that retains the symbolic attributes of Judaism as Ghanem suggests, but also some 'minimal' practical means of ensuring the function of the country as a haven for Jews. The state would retain a Jewish majority, meaning control over immigration policy.
The ICG report, Ghanem and Reiter all speak of serious discrimination against the Arab Israelis. Ghanem mentions the 'Judaization' campaigns in parts of the country such as the Galilee where the government thinks it is important to create Jewish majorities.
But Israel's Arab citizens also "enjoy political rights unknown to many in the region," the ICG report says. This includes a vote, and a high degree of freedom of expression and association.
Even so, they are politically under-represented, according to the ICG. Reiter says this is mainly because they are never included in coalition government by the "Zionist" parties, which means they never get the benefits of sharing power. Also, says Reiter, they are seriously underrepresented among the country's civil servants.
Reiter proposes creation of a formal Arab body as representative of the community, so that complaints can be discussed more readily.
The ICG and Reiter both note that a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians may make reconciliation with the country easier. "Without a peace agreement, it is difficult to see how the situation can improve," says Reiter.
For the time being the Arab minority is feeling increasingly frustrated and isolated. "The fact that there is no violence now does not mean that we are happy," says Ghanem. "It means we are afraid."
The ICG calls these tensions a serious threat to the stability of the country. Reiter tones that down a bit. "It certainly is a challenge to the stability but the state has the military power and the security services to deal with it," he says. "We may see more demonstrations like the ones in October 2000 and more repression and that would be very bad both for the Jews and the Arabs in this country."
https://antiwar.com/orig/branham.php?articleid=2093

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 09:23 AM

"The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots."

So almost a quarter of Arab citizens would rather up sticks, leave their families, their homes and the country of their birth behind in order to live in one of those dreadful nearby foreign countries that Keith and Teribus keep telling us about. Dunno about you, but I regard that as a dreadful failing of the Israeli regime. So the other 77% would rather stay. Was there a question in the survey about how reluctantly they made that decision? Instead of clutching at straws that aren't even straws, why don't you just look up the stuff I told you about? That's the facts of the matter, easily checkable, not some peculiar survey that seems to be based around a simplistic question that in any case yielded a result that doesn't support your case. None so blind...

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:06 AM

I don't suppose that anyone bothered to ask that 77% (if indeed it IS 77%) the REASONS or RATIONAlE for wishing to stay.....

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:13 AM

Funny that the same non-Jews who feel curiously entitled to tell Jews what anti-Semitism is are the same to tell the Israeli Arabs, who would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world, how badly they are being treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:48 AM

I don't suppose that anyone bothered to ask that 77% (if indeed it IS 77%) the REASONS or RATIONAlE for wishing to stay...

I would venture to say that it's because they know they have it better in Israel than they would anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:14 AM

"Funny that the same non-Jews who feel curiously entitled to tell Jews what anti-Semitism "
Funny the people wh choose to ignore the hordes of Jews who condemn the Israeli regime and resent being implicated in its crimes
It really is down to which Jew you choose to listen to - not a coincidence that he ones you support are of the extreme right
Israel is an extremely wealthy country - the fact that some Arabs
prefer to live there rather than the impoverished ones says nothing about how they are treated
They stay there because it is traditionally their home and refuse to be driven out by ethnic cleansers
Jim Carroll

Q&A: Israeli Arabs
About 20% of Israel's population are of Palestinian Arab descent. Israeli Arabs often complain they are second-class citizens, while some Jewish Israelis fear they form a "fifth column".
Israeli Arabs protests against Israeli operation in Gaza
Israeli-Arab protests against Israeli military action worry some
Who are the Israeli Arabs?
About a fifth of Israel's population - roughly 1.45m people - are of Palestinian Arab descent.
During the war that surrounded the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, hundreds of thousands of Arabs were forced from or fled their homes. Those who remained within what became Israel, and their descendents, have been granted citizenship and are known as Israeli Arabs.
In addition there are about 250,000 Arab residents of occupied East Jerusalem. The majority have refused citizenship, so are not described as Israeli Arabs, but still have Israeli residency.
About 80% of Israeli Arabs are Muslim, the rest are divided, roughly equally, between Christians and Druze.
The majority of Israeli Arabs identify closely with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and often describe themselves as "Palestinian citizens of Israel" and "1948 Palestinians".
What is their status in Israel?
Israel defines itself as both Jewish and democratic, but some argue it is impossible for it to be both without discriminating against non-Jews.
The Israeli government says Israeli Arabs are citizens with equal rights - although their "civic duty" differs as they are exempt from compulsory military service.
It points out that Israel's Declaration of Independence promises equality for all.
But one Israeli-Arab MP has described Israel as "democratic for Jews and Jewish for Arabs" and Israeli Arabs frequently describe themselves as "second class citizens".
The Orr Commission, a government inquiry, concluded in 2003 that "government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory".
And the US state department says Israeli Arabs face "institutional, legal, and societal discrimination".
Where do they live?
The largest concentration of Israeli Arabs is in the north of Israel, in towns such as Nazareth, Um al-Fahm and Sakhnin. Many also live in mixed cities such as Haifa, Jaffa and Acre.
The Israeli state appropriated what the Orr commission described as "vast expanses" of land owned by Arabs who fled or were forced out in the wake of 1948.
This and subsequent policies resulted in a "drastic decrease" in the land available to Israeli Arabs, the commission said.
Although determining accurate figures is difficult, advocacy groups say Israeli Arabs now live on about 3% of the land in Israel, despite making up about 20% of the population.
Since 1948, no new Arab towns - apart from Bedouin townships - have been founded, although the Israeli-Arab population has grown at least sevenfold.
Many Arab communities were surrounded by areas used for security purposes, Jewish regional councils, national parks and highways, that prevent or block future expansion, the commission said.
According to advocacy groups, some 160,000 Bedouin Arabs live in the Negev in southern Israeli, about half of them in "unrecognised settlements" which are cut off from basic services.
Most of the rest live in impoverished towns established by the state.
What are Israeli Arabs' living conditions like?
More than half of Israeli-Arab families are living in poverty, compared to about 15% of Jewish Israeli families, and the gap is widening.
For all but one of the past five years, Israeli-Arab communities have received less than 5% of government development funding each year, according to the Mossawa advocacy centre.
Municipal services in many Israeli-Arab communities are inferior to those in Jewish areas, with classrooms shortages, ageing roads and a lack of local employment opportunities.
Some Israelis blame lower levels of municipal tax collection in Israeli-Arab areas for the gap.
The Mossawa Centre says some Israeli Arabs are unwilling to pay taxes for poor local services, but adds that Israeli-Arab areas tend to have fewer of the factories, businesses and government offices that feed municipal coffers in other areas.
The US state department says Israeli Arabs are "underrepresented in most fields of employment". For example, the Mossawa Centre says only 8% of employees in government offices are Israeli-Arab and of 70,000 employees in hi-tech companies only 300 are Arabs.
There is no state-funded Arabic language university.
Israeli Arabs also miss out on benefits, such as housing and educational subsidies, available to people who have completed national service.
The foreign ministry has said that this can outweigh the advantage gained from being able to start higher education earlier than those who serve in the military.
Are Jewish and Arab Israelis equal under the law?
The Israeli government says yes, Israeli-Arab advocacy groups say no.
The Mossawa Centre says at least 20 laws discriminate overtly or tacitly against them. It points out that Israeli Arabs are not classed as an official minority and says Arabic, though an official language, does not have the same status as Hebrew. Muslim and Christian festivals are not national holidays; Jewish ones are.
One particularly controversial law is the 2003 Citizenship Law, under which Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza - women under 25 and men under 35 - who marry Israelis are not usually allowed to move to Israel.
Palestinians over those ages are granted only temporary residency, not citizenship. Israel says the law is necessary for security; Israeli Arabs say it discriminates as it affects them disproportionately.
Another hard-fought area is access to land.
About 93% of land in Israel is owned by state or semi-state bodies and is then leased to citizens.
Thirteen percent of the land is owned by the Jewish National Fund, which was founded specifically to buy land for a Jewish homeland. Its directors have a powerful role in the state body that controls the other 80% of the land. Israeli Arabs have long complained of difficulties in leasing this land.
Three legal cases since 2000 have, however, set precedents with rulings that neither the state nor local residents' committees can block the leasing of land on the basis of race.
But MPs have tried to use legislation to overturn the rulings, and advocacy groups say it is still, in practice, difficult for Israeli Arabs to lease much state-controlled land.
Where is their role politically?
Israeli Arabs were under military rule until 1966. Independent Arab political parties did not emerge until the 1980s and 1990s.
There are currently 13 Israeli-Arab members in the 120-seat Knesset, (10 representing primarily Arab parties).
Israeli Arabs are frequently dubbed a "fifth column" in Israel, particularly at times of heightened tensions with the Palestinians such as the second intifada or recent Gaza conflict, when Israeli Arabs held protests.
Some Israeli Arabs do not participate in national elections as they do not believe their vote will change anything, or do not wish to recognise the Israeli state.
An Islamist group called the Islamic Movement champions the latter position, although it participates in local polls.
A handful of Israeli-Arab leaders have been investigated for visiting Syria - with which Israel is still technically at war. Accusations of incitement are frequently traded between Israeli-Arab and right-wing Jewish politicians.
What is the Israeli government's position?
The Israeli government points out that, since the creation of Israel, Israeli Arabs have seen dramatic gains in areas such as education, health care and areas such as women's rights.
It says other factors, such as large families and the low level of female employment, as well as discrimination, contribute to the lower socio-economic position of Israeli Arabs.
The Orr Commission was established after 13 Israeli-Arabs were killed by police trying to quell riots as the second Palestinian uprising or intifada broke out in 2000.
The commission found police incompetence, a history of discrimination and also incitement by Israeli-Arab leaders had all contributed to the incident.
Israeli Arabs were angered that police involved in the deaths did not face trial.
The right-leaning government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu includes a minorities minister.
It has announced a $40m fund for joint state-private sector investment in minority businesses.
But coalition members have also proposed two controversial bills.
One demands Israeli Arabs pledge allegiance to Israel as a Jewish state.
The other initially sought to ban marking the Nakba, the term meaning "catastrophe" that Palestinians use to describe the creation of Israel.
It has been watered down to stop state funding for activities which reject the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

Steve,
These are bigoted and racist remarks

No. They are both factual comparisons. Do you deny them?

Tell me, Keith - what's the subject of this thread?

There were several protagonists in the 6 Day War, but you always and only single out one, the only Jewish state, for criticism.

You made an apt analogy of children's behaviour.
If you only and always chastise little Johnny's behaviour even though surrounding kids are behaving worse, and little Johnny happens to be the only Jewish kid, you invite the suspicion that his ethnicity is relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM

I would venture to say that it's because they know they have it better in Israel...

You can venture to say anything you like but without evidence/substantiation its still bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:55 AM

"No. They are both factual comparisons. Do you deny them?"
Of course they are
You choose argue that they put up with being treated as second class citizens because they would be treated worse elsewhere
Even if it were true, which it is not (no other state is driving legally occupying citizens with chemical sprays as if happening in Israel.
It's a stupid "we'll reat you how we like"
argument

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:57 AM

An even more stupid post than usual, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:01 PM

You mean you can not challenge or answer anything I have said, as usual Steve.

If you could you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:03 PM

It's infra dig, Keith. You're having one of your ultra-stupid days, as opposed to one of your merely very stupid days.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:04 PM

You choose argue that they put up with being treated as second class citizens because they would be treated worse elsewhere

I do not argue that.
I do argue that conditions are worse in surrounding states, and that Arabs would migrate if that were not the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:09 PM

You're having one of your ultra-stupid days, as opposed to one of your merely very stupid days.

As ever you resort to abuse when you lose.
You are clearly unable to challenge anything that I have said, or you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:58 PM

"I do not argue that."
You argue that Governments can treat people who settle in their countries in anyway they see fit as long as it can be shown that other countries would treat them worse
So Pakistanis moving to be Britain can be forced to live in squalid conditions as long as it can be shown that their home country's conditions woild be worse
What a horrific argument - racist in the extreme - again
Wonder where that leaves all the refugees fleeing Assad
Stupid, stupid argument
Jim Carroll

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3638934/Second-class-citizens-in-their-own-country.html
The Telegraph
Jerusalem
Israeli Arabs are the minority that dare not speak their name.
For decades, the world's attention has dwelt on their Arab brothers and sisters who call themselves Palestinian and who live in the occupied territories or the refugee diaspora around the Middle East. But there is still a large number of Arabs who live as citizens of the Jewish state - approximately 1.4 million or 20 per cent of the overall seven million population - and it is possible to detect rumblings of their discontent.
In theory, they have exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis. The Israeli government can point at a declaration of independence and a basic law that officially enshrines equality for all Israeli citizens, no matter their religion. But theory and reality rarely tally and you have only to pass through the terminal at Ben Gurion airport to notice how Israel's Arab population are subtly airbrushed out of the way. When the gleaming new building was opened, nobody thought to include signs in Israel's second language, Arabic.
And when you read the results of Israeli public opinion polls, it is possible to wonder how the Jewish state has any Arab citizens whatsoever. In a recent survey, more than half of those questioned said they believed a Jewish woman marrying an Arab man to be a "betrayal of the country and the Jewish people''. And 50.9 per cent agreed the state should encourage Arab Israelis to leave the country.
No wonder that fans supporting the country's league-leading soccer team, Beitar Jerusalem - the Manchester United of Israel - shout, "We hope you get cancer'' when an Israeli Arab player on the opposition team touches the ball. Beitar fans even threatened a season ticket boycott when the club considered hiring its first Israeli Arab player. While Israeli Arabs are meant to enjoy equal status, it took until this year - 59 years after the state was founded - for the first Israeli Arab Muslim to occupy a seat in cabinet.
The appointment of Ghaleb Majadla as science minister might have been a moment for celebration among the country's Arab minority, but it also reopened old wounds. You might have expected Right-wing Jewish extremists to be unhappy, but some of the most powerful dissent came from senior Jewish parliamentarians such as Esterina Tartman, who heads the parliamentary bloc of Yisrael Beitenu. This is not a fringe movement: it is a partner in Israel's coalition government. In her view, the appointment of an Israeli Arab minister was a "gigantic axe blow to the tree trunk of Zionism and a Jewish state''.
Another Right-wing MP demanded that the new minister be subjected to extra security vetting because, unlike a Jewish Israeli, he cannot be assumed to be a trusted guardian of the country's scientific knowledge. Amid such hostility, it was not surprising to hear of Israeli Arab unhappiness at their lot. What was surprising was to hear that this unhappiness might crystallise into the biggest danger to the Jewish state.
For nearly 60 years, external threats have shaped the history of Israel as they have few other countries. Wars with Egypt, Jordan and Syria, as well as the running sore of relations with the Palestinian Authority, have been the yardstick against which Israelis measure their security. But, according to one MP, the real danger now lies within its borders - and is of its own making.
"Arab citizens are growing as a proportion of our population, but are increasingly alienated," said Nadia Hilo, Israel's first female Arab MP, who was elected to the Knesset last year. "The discrimination is coming from the civil service and public sector in particular, where Arab Israelis find it much harder to find jobs than Jewish applicants."
While Israeli Arabs are about one in five of the population, they are projected to become an even bigger minority in the future, as their birth rate outstrips that of Jewish Israelis. Nevertheless, they continue to encounter discrimination in the workplace, despite boasting an impressive number of university graduates.
"There's a definite problem of racism; there's more and more division," said Miss Hilo. "The real danger to Israel comes from inside if it does not give its Arab citizens equality and integration. This generation won't bow the head and be deferential like our parents were. They are well educated and will not tolerate discrimination."
Miss Hilo believes positive discrimination is the only way to stop resentment among fellow Arabs spilling over into unrest. She is calling for annual targets to be established, guaranteeing Arabs with the same qualifications as Jews a quota of public sector jobs. Miss Hilo, herself an example of the success Arab Israelis can achieve, emphasises that her campaign is not motivated simply by wanting to right a social wrong.
"The government doesn't use us to advance Israel, when we could do so much to alter perceptions of our country around the world," she said. The Labour Party MP is candid about her ruling party's priorities, however. "Ministers only think one to two years ahead," she said. "I'm not sure if it will ever happen."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:08 PM

You are indulging in a very ugly argument, Keith. The fact that you can't see it, or that you justify it, is the clearest indication yet that you are a racist. The fact that Arabs native to Israel show little inclination to move to neighbouring countries is evidence of precisely nothing. It certainly isn't evidence that they are happy with a situation that is demonstrably worse than the ruling ethnic majority in their country. You wouldn't apply that argument to anyone else who would rather stay with their families, their family homes and their native country. Racist through and through.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:46 PM

Jim,
You argue that Governments can treat people who settle in their countries in anyway they see fit as long as it can be shown that other countries would treat them worse

I have not. You just made that up.. If I did, QUOTE ME!

Steve,
You are indulging in a very ugly argument, Keith.

Vacuous, empty abuse. If that is not a lie, QUOTE ME!

is the clearest indication yet that you are a racist.

Now the filthiest lying smear. If I have said anything remotely racist QUOTE ME LIAR!

. The fact that Arabs native to Israel show little inclination to move to neighbouring countries is evidence of precisely nothing.

It is evidence that they are not so persecuted that they leave, as the Christians have been leaving Gaza and West Bank from persecution.
Added to the hard evidence of their thriving population numbers and life expectancies significantly higher than Arabs in surrounding states it shows that to be an Arab Israeli is no great hardship, and much better than being an Arab Egyptian or Lebanese or Jordanian or Syrian.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 03:01 PM

"I have not. You just made that up.. If I did, QUOTE ME!"
You did just that Keith when you compared the treatment you claim Arabs would get in neighboring countries "The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel."
What happens elsewhere has no bearing whatever to what happens in the country being diccussed
Want me to repeat it?
""The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.""
There you go
One more time
"The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel."
in addition
"No. They are both factual comparisons. Do you deny them?"
There - confirmation that this is what you meant
You are a nasty little man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 03:45 PM

I recall that just prior to the Six-Day-War there was a war going on in Yemen (not involving Israel) and poison gas was involved. When I checked Wikipedia it said that Egypt was participating in a civil war in the area. Anybody remember this?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:18 PM

Nothing vacuous, Keith. You are absolutely bang to rights. You are suggesting that a repressed ethnic group should consider themselves lucky because things are that much worse just over the border. Horrible racism. I had two uncles, both dead now, who lived in Smith's Rhodesia in the fifties and early sixties. Detestably, they both kept a family of servants (they called them "house-boys" even though they were grown men with wives and kids) who lived in shacks at the far ends of their huge gardens. They paid them a pittance, just enough to survive, but their justification was that these "chappies" would have been much worse off had it not been for my uncles' beneficence. That is exactly what you, Teribus and bobad are saying about the Arabs in Israel: they may well be discriminated against (they are, but you refuse to check it out), but they should still consider themselves lucky that they don't live in those horrid countries next door. You are a dyed-in-the-wool racist, Keith. My uncles would have loved you to bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:25 PM

Steve Shaw. You made your point well, whether or not it is true. But you weaken your argument when you descend to labels and are as condescending as you claim your opposition is.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:15 PM

The permanently outraged love to take things far beyond any rational conclusion in order to construct their platform of moral superiority.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:20 PM

I'd very much appreciate it if people will make their points without the ad hominems. I've got some contributing to do to this thread before some sensitive mod closes it.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:47 PM

What I told you about my uncles is the unvarnished truth. They are both dead now but I left them in no doubt as to my opinion of them. I'm ashamed of belonging to a family that espoused that, but that kind of thing has shaped my views all my life. They were racists through and through, and I see no difference between them and Keith, Teribus and bobad, for the reasons I've given in my posts. I worked in schools in East London and Walthamstow for thirteen years, in schools with very large ethnic minorities. Let me tell you that I know precisely what racism is. I swore to myself, after seeing kids victimised by it, and one family who lost three members to a racist crime involving a petrol bomb pushed through their letterbox, that I would never fail to call it out wherever I saw it. And I see it here in the attitudes to Arab citizens of Israel in this thread. My criticisms of the perpetrators here is very plain, not all condescending, and the label writ large with the word racist is fully deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:19 PM

Way to double down there, Steve! I sense a strong self righteous tone in your verbiage which IMO does not make your point go down any better. I have discussed, in friendly terms, the unfortunate inter ethnic conflicts in Israel with some local Palestinians and the R word didn't occur, although it became clear that among their grievances against the current regime was that Israel had allowed in Africans (Falashas) and was very open to LGBTQs.

I'm not sure what the equivalent -ist word to use against the homophobic. Here and now I'll coin these folks as homophobists. But using it against them wouldn't have made them feel any better or more understood. Probably the reverse.Their feelings against Shia Muslims were if anything more combustible than their feelings against Jews, so they were anti-semitic, too. But that would not have brought clarity.

Maybe leave your family out of it and give the other poster a break, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 09:12 PM

Try to focus. That's what I do. You accused me of being condescending. Then you refer to my very plain speaking, mostly couched in words of one syllable, as verbiage. Have you actually got anything to say or are you drowning in your superiority complex?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:59 PM

Steve: None of the above. I referred to your personalizing your posts and lack of subject matter. This does not appear to have changed, so I'll go back to making points and abstain from counting coup. Feeling superior? Little bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 01:59 AM

As far as what I have said in this discussion to date goes. I addressed Shaw's list of so-called perceived injustices meted out to Israeli Arabs and asked the perfectly reasonable question why it was that among the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of refugees from Muslim and Arab countries you will not find one single Israeli Arab. I cannot see anything "racist" in asking that question at all. Unfortunately it is an all too common tactic of the likes of Shaw and of Carroll that if you do not agree with their POV and their line argument that you are accused of being guilty of every ".....ism" in the book and being every "......ist" imaginable.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 04:18 AM

"Shaw and of Carroll that if you do not agree with their POV and their line argument that you are accused of being guilty of every ".....ism" in the book and being every ""
And it is your tactic to make up a bundle of facts which have no relation to the truth and when you are found out, sprint away from them
Refugees flee from wars and massive persecution - it is the last resort
It is a little different than being treated as a second-rate citizen in your own homeland
You have been given the actual evidence - reported, documented, researched, even filmed - on how the Arabs in Israel are being treated
To flee from that treatment would be to accept defeat, which is what ETHNIC CLEANSING is about
They don't give up and flee because it is their ancestral homeland.
Keith justifies that treatment by claiming that they would be treated worse elshere - a scummy level of argument
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:03 AM

"Shaw's list of so-called perceived injustices"

So-called by who? Certainly not by me. Stop making things up. The information I gave you, without emotion, is all entirely factual and easily checkable. OK, we get it that you, Keith and bobad don't want to believe it so are frightened to check it out. Unfortunately, that attitude makes you look idiotic. Go and check it out. Robomatic, there's plenty of content and focus in my posts, unlike yours. Sad to see you descending to the level of the not-so-fab three.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:07 AM

Steve, you raised the issue of life expectancy.
It is a fact that Israeli Arabs live longer than their neighbours.
It is a fact that their population thrives and grows.
It is a fact that the population of Christian Arabs in Gaza and West Bank has collapsed because of genuine persecution by other Arabs.

It is not racist to point those facts out, but you always resort to smearing when you lose an argument.
You have still not challenged a single point I have made.
You have no case.
It is racist to always and only attack the only Jewish State while ignoring the far worse behaviour of all its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 06:23 AM

None of these things have anything to do with the way Arabs are treated in Israel and bringing them up as an excuse is racist
Israel is a wealthy country, largely due to outside support - these countries are not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:14 AM

Grows? All populations grow, you clown.

Thrives? Not nearly as much as the Jewish population. You've had the facts on that. Arabs in Israel are discriminated against. Check the facts out for yourself instead of sitting there wriggling around.

Israeli Arabs live longer than their neighbours? Not as long as their Jewish neighbours they don't. Check. It. Out. And stop peddling half-truths.

Go on now. Check out the comparative data (not my opinion) on housing, on educational provision, on medical provision and on infant mortality. Check out the data on pay and unemployment. Check out the data on the "facilities" endured by tens of thousands of native Bedouin Arabs in the Negev. I don't need to give you my opinions. The facts speak for themselves. But you refuse to look at them. Not once have you challenged bobad's ridiculous claim that Arabs in Israel enjoy absolute equality. A complete nonsense, easy to see if you CHECK THE FACTS.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:35 AM

Jim,
None of these things have anything to do with the way Arabs are treated in Israel and bringing them up as an excuse is racist

No it is not. No one is saying it is an excuse.
You quoted me (three times!!) NOT saying it made it OK.
You made that up.

Those things were pointed out to put Israel's supposed crimes into perspective. Surrounding nations all behave much worse so why do you always and only single out Israel for criticism?

Steve,
Grows? All populations grow, you clown.

Not true.
Genuinely persecuted populations shrink, like the Christian populations of Iraq, Gaza and West Bank.
The Arab community in Israel is growing much faster than the Jewish community, so they are not suffering that much.

Israeli Arabs live longer than their neighbours? Not as long as their Jewish neighbours they don't. Check. It. Out.

Scots die younger than English, but not because they are mistreated.
Check. It. Out.
It is because of cultural and lifestyle differences like smoking and diet.
Check. It. Out.
Such differences will be more pronounced between Jew and Arab than English and Scot!

When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside.
Check. It. Out.
Israel has been good for them.
One cheer for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:20 AM

"No it is not. No one is saying it is an excuse."
You have always put it up as an excuse and accused uss of singling outt Israel (on discussions of Israel)
It is a squalid defence of terrorism to point elsewhere and deny facts - that is what you do - it is the only thing you do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 09:34 AM

Well most thinking people would regard the people of Gaza as persecuted. The population of Gaza has almost doubled in twenty years and will double again in the next twenty. You are mischievously contrasting the growth of one native population with the emigration of another. The ex-Gaza Christians, etc., are still shagging and reproducing. They are just doing it somewhere else. Your ludicrous equation of population growth with wellbeing is given the lie to the whole world over. Birth rates are nearly always higher in poorer countries. You have no point to make here.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 09:53 AM

"Scots die younger than English, but not because they are mistreated.
Check. It. Out.
It is because of cultural and lifestyle differences like smoking and diet.
Check. It. Out."

Would you care to provide a bit more information on these "lifestyle differences" and their impact on life expectancy, please? Would you like to castigate the Scots for their deep-fried Mars Bars while you're at it?

"Israel has been good for them."

The usual excuse-mantra of the white racists in apartheid South Africa and Southern Rhodesia was that the blacks were better off because we're here, so what are they complaining about? You're exactly in line with those thugs, aren't you, Keith? You don't like being called racist, do you, but you brand yourself with the label every time you open your mouth about Israel. The Arabs who live in Israel are discriminated against in many aspects of life. The information (not my opinions) is all out there but you shut your eyes to the mistreatment of a minority ethnic group, try to make bogus arguments to show how well they're doing and instead make excuses precisely along the lines of those hateful regimes in Southern Africa. Racism personified. "I'm not a racist, but bloody hell, those ungrateful Arabs in Israel and their supporters don't half moan..."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 10:00 AM

a bit more information on these "lifestyle differences"

Probably more queers in Scotland, Steve. Check with Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 10:14 AM

Well most thinking people would regard the people of Gaza as persecuted.

Most thinking people, who are not anti-Semites, will agree that the people of Gaza are persecuted by their own so-called leaders, the terrorist group Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 10:33 AM

What bundle of facts have I made up Jom? Care to give us an example?

Well said bobad you beat me to it. Nobody but nobody have been let down so badly and consistently as the Arabs of Palestine have been by their "leaders", their track record for poor decisions, rank leadership and disregard for the best interests of their people, represents a catalogue of total failure that stretches back unbroken to 1947.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:07 AM

Jim,
You have always put it up as an excuse and accused uss of singling outt Israel

I have never put it up as an excuse, but I do accuse you of always and only singling out Israel for criticism while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours.
And not just in dicussions about Israel. This thread is not just about Israel.

Steve,
Well most thinking people would regard the people of Gaza as persecuted.

Really? Who by? They have suffered from being in a permanent state of war with their powerful neighbour, but that is the fault of their government not persecution.

The Christians who used to live there were persecuted though.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:28 AM

Steve, you raised the issue of life expectancy of Arab Israelis.

When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside.
Those Arabs were the lucky ones.

Israel has been good for them, improving their health and life expectancy.
One cheer for Israel.

That is comparing like with like.
There are many possible explanations for the difference in life expectancy between Jews and Arabs in Israel, but it can not justify you always and only criticising Israel while ignoring the faults of all its neighbours.

Tiny sliver of land that it is, Israel is the only Jewish State in the world.
Is that the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:40 AM

Steve,
The ex-Gaza Christians, etc., are still shagging and reproducing. They are just doing it somewhere else

Yes, they have been driven out by persecution.
Unlike the Arab Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:46 AM

"When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside."
There is no reason that their life would not have been increased anyway
Now you are arguing that it's ok to invade people's territory because it would be better for them
Good argument for bringing back the empire
"I have never put it up as an excuse, but I do accuse you of always and only singling out Israel for criticism"
Contadiction in terms Keith
When we are aruing on a subject - that is what the subject is - not Outer Mongolia or South America
Why the **** should anywhere else be brought in
If you would like to claim that I have defended atrocities by others that Israel has carried out, feel free to produce them
You are denying exactly what you are doing here - excusing Israel because other people do the same
What kind of fuck-up of an argument is that?
"Israel is the only Jewish State in the world."
And there you go again - blaming the Jews
This is what the Israli regime is doing NOT THE JEWS - THIS IS RAW ANTISEMITISM BY DEFINITION - IT IS ANTISEMITIC TO ASSOCIATE THE ACTIONS OF ISRAEL WITH THE JEWISH PEOPLE - PLEASE STOP POLLUTING THIS FORUM WITH ATTACKS ON THE JEWISH PEOPLE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 12:06 PM

What bundle of facts have I made up Jom? Care to give us an example?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 12:16 PM

It doesn't matter who you think persecuted the people of Gaza more. That was not the issue. My point was that their population has nearly doubled since 2000 and is predicted to more than double again in the next twenty years. Population growth is not regulated by poverty or persecution. In fact, population growth is lowest in the wealthiest countries on the whole. You were so quick to try to turn round something I didn't actually say in order to point the finger at Hamas. You are three big babies, aren't you? Blinded by your racist ideologies, of course. While you're here, anyone like to defend apartheid on the grounds that the blacks were lucky to have the whites running them? That is precisely what you're doing apropos of the Arab population of Israel. And I'll bet none of you have bothered to check the list of facts I gave you. I can save you the bother if you like. They are accurate and true.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 12:45 PM

"Care to give us an example?"
You hardly ever link your claims - the few times you have have been a shambles.
Virtually every statement you have made has been made arrogantly ("JOM" being an ongoing sign of your arrogant insecurity), so we can assume that, rather than verifying it, you are demanding we take it on face value
You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART
One of many examples, though probably the most blatantly stupid.
You even attempted to use the excuse again when defending the sale of weapons to Qatar and Saudi - unbelievable!!
I'm sure there's a Booker Prize for Fiction in there soemwhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 02:24 PM

You want an example of your made-up "facts," Teribus? Well how about this one:

"Shaw's list of so-called perceived injustices"

The only person that "so-called" the list "perceived injustices" was you. Nothing at all like those words came from me. I did not call them injustices. I did not "perceive" anything on the list. It is a list containing factual, checkable information only. The statement of yours is predicated on complete invention.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:54 PM

i wonder why it has never occurred to the rulers of the oil rich nations to better the sad conditions of the Arabs in Israel, detailed above. they could easily afford to.

in the war the southern Irish tried to relieve the people who had been bombed in Belfast. Strange that a similar feeling of solidarity doesn't run through the Arab nations. When they felt Israel was a sitting duck - they committed loads of resources to trying to destroy it.

it is small wonder that people are perturbed about anti- semitism in the labour party. every day, i get anti -Israel messages on facebook.

i don't mind admitting i am uncomfortable with constant one sided criticism of the attempt to give jews a state. particularly when it all seems to emanate from the party i have voted for all my life.
i am not jewish

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 06:51 PM

There's no attempt to give Jews a state, Al. They have a state and have had it for seventy years and it's a pretty prosperous state at that. Had I been a sentient being in 1948 I'm pretty sure I would have opposed the formation of a state based on one particular religion/ethnicity. But Israel is now a fact, eight million souls live there and, like any other bunch of eight million human beings, Israel must be supported. The ordinary people of Israel, the Jews, the Christians, the atheists, the Muslims and the bedouins, deserve a quiet life of peace, security and prosperity and the best shot at equality that any imperfect democracy can muster. Being hoodwinked into supporting a vicious and bellicose regime, as I believe a very large number of Jewish citizens of Israel are, does not mean that they deserve to be cast into a state of fear and insecurity, and I for one utterly condemn idiots who declare that Israel should be wiped off the map. But successive Israeli regimes, which still live under the spell of those horrid terrorists of Shamir's Stern Gang and Begin's Irgun (note how those guys, among many others, including Sharon, gained fake legitimacy once they entered the politics of the new state), have completely delegitimised the project. The propping-up militarily of the Israeli regime by the US is a disgrace. That's what some of us are on about, Al. It just ain't right.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:11 PM

The story of the Jews and the founding of Israel should be the paradigm of the Left - instead, many on the extreme fringes are invested in showing it as the exact opposite. Jews restored their culture in their ancestral homeland in a forward-looking, liberal democracy. And the Left wants to pull it down in the cause of a fake identity or manufactured group unified by almost nothing but its hate for Israel and Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:46 PM

Well I'm a leftie. I've never, ever, wanted to pull down a liberal democracy. You will not find hate in my last post. The opposite. Unfortunately, the behaviour of successive Israeli regimes, propped up unconditionally by the US, has often been anything but liberal and the democracy, despite your protests, has worked for the Jews only. I'm getting sick of saying it, but I gave you a list of facts about the discrimination against Arabs who live in Israel. I gave you checkable facts. Not my opinions. You can have those if you like but the facts speak for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:15 PM

"instead, many on the extreme fringes are invested in showing it as the exact opposite"
Utter nonsense
Jews fleeing the European pogroms were the backbone of the left movement
It was the left who took to the streets to face Mosley's Blackshirts (only to be batoned down by our gallant 'boys in blue')
The left supported the new Israeli state - as a young man I personally shared platforms with returned Kibbutzim workers fighting against nuclear weapons, South African Apartheid, youth unemployment..... and every other left wing cause that I have been involved in
One of the largest and most active branches of the Manchester Communist Party was the Cheetham Hill one, founded and run by Manchester Jews, many of them Holocaust survivors.
When my mother posted a death notice in the Liverpool Echo when my father died, half a dozen Jewish Freedom Fighters who had fought alongside him in Spain turned up - one had shared one of Franco's prison cell with him.
This is pure fiction Bobad - your arguments have always been political ones here - a defence of the extreme right wing administration that has systematically disgraced and destroyed the dream of a Jewish State.
The people you are defending with these lies and distortions are those who are doing to Muslims what the Nazis did to the Jews - ethnically cleansing them
When the Nazis were exterminating those they didn't approve of, the left were put to death alongside The Jews and the Gypsies.
The left has no history of antisemitism whatever
It was the right, not the left who financed the Nazis, it was German Capitalism that allowed them to carry out the Holocaust and it was Capitalist firms like Bosch, Mercedes, Deutsche Bank, I G Farben and Volkswagen who became extremely rich by using 300,000 Jewish concentration camp slaves, who they allowed to be exterminated when they became to weak to be of further use.
These are the politics you are supporting, so please don't call us Antisemites - not with your political track record
I don't suppose this will raise the slightest blush to your cheeks
You are more likely to respond with your usual "Jew hater" - that's how deep your concern goes for the Jewish people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 02:13 AM

Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

Apologies "Submit" pressed inadvertently:

Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons.

3: A NATO 7.62 x 51mm round will not fit into an AK-47 which fires 7.62 x 39mm ammunition because the NATO round is 12mm TOO LONG for the chamber of an AK-47 - Pretty self explanatory Jom but if you are too bone thick to grasp the concept try pouring a quart into a pint pot, perhaps then you might just get the idea.

4: WHAT ORDER??? Of course I deny that there ever was an order. If you state that there was an order placed by the Syrian Government presented to the British Government then please provide some evidence of it.

5: What WAS applied for by a private individual (Note that Jom a private individual NOT the British Government) was an export licence - NO ORDER. This private individual sought to sell £30,000 worth of ammunition to Syria in 2009. The Export Licence was issued - there is no evidence at all that any ammunition was ever shipped. ALL export licences relating to goods going to Syria from the UK were revoked in the Autumn of 2010. Your contention was that:

a) The British Government had sold weapons to Assad in Syria
b) That those weapons were being used to kill civilians in Homs in March 2012.

Total fabrication on your part driven by your bias and bigotry.

6: The size thing - ever embraced the concept of rational thought Jom? UK has/had more 7.62mm ammunition in 2009 than it knew what to do with. A hang-over from when our standard infantry weapon the L1A1 SLR fired 7.62x51mm ammunition so that was what we had most of that we now no longer needed in such quantity - fair to logically and rationally think that it would be the surplus that would be sold off, as opposed to the stuff our soldiers actually needed over in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 02:57 AM

Third time lucky - would be grateful if some kindly elf could delete the first two attempts.

Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons.

3: A NATO 7.62 x 51mm round will not fit into an AK-47 which fires 7.62 x 39mm ammunition because the NATO round is 12mm TOO LONG for the chamber of an AK-47 - Pretty self explanatory Jom but if you are too bone thick to grasp the concept try pouring a quart into a pint pot, perhaps then you might just get the idea.

4: WHAT ORDER??? Of course I deny that there ever was an order. If you state that there was an order placed by the Syrian Government presented to the British Government then please provide some evidence of it.

5: What WAS applied for by a private individual (Note that Jom a private individual NOT the British Government) was an export licence - NO ORDER. This private individual sought to sell £30,000 worth of ammunition to Syria in 2009. The Export Licence was issued - there is no evidence at all that any ammunition was ever shipped. ALL export licences relating to goods going to Syria from the UK were revoked in the Autumn of 2010. Your contention was that:

a) The British Government had sold weapons to Assad in Syria
b) That those weapons were being used to kill civilians in Homs in March 2012.

Total fabrication on your part driven by your bias and bigotry.

6: The size thing - ever embraced the concept of rational thought Jom? UK has/had more 7.62mm ammunition in 2009 than it knew what to do with. A hang-over from when our standard infantry weapon the L1A1 SLR fired 7.62x51mm ammunition so that was what we had most of that we now no longer needed in such quantity - fair to logically and rationally think that it would be the surplus that would be sold off, as opposed to the stuff our soldiers actually needed over in Afghanistan (5.56x45mm as used in the SA80 A2 L85 Assault Rifle)

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

Been there, done that Teribus - you made a six-attempt shambles of trying to justify this sale, inventing (without evidence), six contradicting reasons wy they ammunioion was never ordered, then was ordered but never licenced, then was licenced bu t the licence was withdrawn, then was too small an order to have made a diffence to the Homs massacre, then was sent far too early to have had any effect, then was not compatible to be used by Assad's snipers, and last but not least - was the wrong size (even though the size was never specified in the reports of the order)
None of this came with linked back-up; just your belligerently strutting talked down declarations as here "Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong"   
It was a clumsily executed attempt to justify the sale of equipment to a mass-murderer, totally lacking in both evidence and imagination.
I have no intention of re-opening this fiasco with you - I raised it as a pathetically spectacular example of your making things up.
I strongly suggest you learn to address your fellow Mudcatters respectfully and learn to spell their names if you want to be taken seriously and not as a blustering schoolyard bully.
Your arrogance only serves to underline your ignorance - they go together "Like a horse and carriage" as the song says.
(Only one "Jom" there - is that a sign you are making an effort (a rhetorical question))
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 03:27 AM

Steve,
It doesn't matter who you think persecuted the people of Gaza more. That was not the issue.

It was the issue I was referring to.
Why do you always and only criticise the Jewish State while ignoring the far worse excesses of all its neighbours.

Jim,
"When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside."
There is no reason that their life would not have been increased anyway

Life expectancy for Arabs increased both inside and outside of the new borders, but inside it increased more.

When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside.
Which Arabs were the lucky ones?

Israel has been good for them, improving their health and life expectancy.
One cheer for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 04:52 AM

"but inside it increased more."
So?
Does that mean that all Arabs should abandon their religion and become Jews (they are already Semites)?
Israel is a wealthy country with international financial backing, the Third World is not - nothing to do with culture, just International economic and political expediency
Stuffing that weealth up the noses of Muslim Israelis in order to make them second rate citizens is a disgusting form of acculturation and racism - which is what you are promoting b using it as an argument
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:02 AM

You completely missed the point about population growth not going hand-in-hand with prosperity. You referred to the Arab population of Israel growing and thriving. You completely failed to make the point that, in the face of being presented with FACTUAL INFORMATION about how discrimination makes the lives of the Arabs in general much worse than those of Jews in so many facets, that Arabs in Israel are "thriving." All you can offer in support is the nonsensical argument that they don't actually leave their homes, their families and their native homeland in droves. Here's one for you, to show you how you continually brand yourself a racist; read it alongside your "one cheer" comment, as it's precisely the same argument (and the statements about land and housing are true):

"Housing for blacks in South Africa was worse both before and after apartheid than during apartheid, and during that regime they were actually allocated more land. Therefore apartheid was good for black South Africans. One cheer for apartheid."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:08 AM

no one is using anything as an argument.

i wouldn't want anyone ill treated and if even a tory git like David Mellor is outraged on seeing the treatment of arabs by israeli security forces - i think we may take it that the arabs have serious cause for complaint.

however - compare and contrast the outpouring of bitching about israel compared to the foul treatment of arab citizens in arab nations.

and frankly Jim - it rings very false .
Once in my life I've walked down the street shouting HO! HO! HO CHI MINH! WE WILL FIGHT AND WE WILL WIN!

REmember!
i'm never going into that mode for a gang of murdering bastards like hamas or ho, and you shouldn't either, Jim.
Won't get fooled again! (as the folksong written by the Who goes)

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:10 AM

"Jim Carroll - 13 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

Been there, done that Teribus

In your dreams Jom - In your dreams.

1: "you made a six-attempt shambles of trying to justify this sale,"

A couple of problems with that little invention of yours Carroll:

a) I have never made any attempt to justify anything connected with your fairy tale
b) Apart from the record that an export licence was issued there has never, ever been one shred of evidence that there was any sale (Feel free Jom to come up with evidence that ammunition was sold and delivered using the said licence - you couldn't do so in 2012 and I doubt very much if you can or will now - you stated that it had so it is rather up to you to prove it - you won't)

2: "inventing (without evidence), six contradicting reasons wy they ammunioion was never ordered,)

There has never been any evidence that Syria ordered any ammunition. If you have any please produce it.

3: "then was ordered but never licenced,"

As stated above no evidence to support that Syria placed any order for ammunition.

4: "then was licenced bu t the licence was withdrawn,"

That is exactly what occurred and I have never said, or claimed anything different from that. Licence issued in 2009 and revoked in 2010.

5: then was too small an order to have made a diffence to the Homs massacre

£30,000 would equate to around 100,000 rounds of ammunition. The Syrian Army, a conscripted force, numbered around 220,000 men - eh Jom that amounts to less than half a bullet per man - using your unparalleled military experience and knowledge, you tell me if that would be adequate.

6: "then was sent far too early to have had any effect"

Let me see now Jom, hypothetically an army of 220,000 get sent 100,000 bullets in 2009, or at least before Autumn 2010, then start massacring civilians in the Spring of 2012 - what did they use in training between autumn 2010 and Spring 2012? Wait!!! Don't tell me!!! 100,000 bullets that they had bought elsewhere in 2007 - Ya f**kin' idiot.

7: then was not compatible to be used by Assad's snipers"

Well yes Jom a 7.62x51mm round would not fit into the chamber of Assad's snipers weapons, which by the way DID fire 7.62mm ammunition. Which Jom if you were using logic and common sense would indicate what ammunition Assad's snipers would need. But as you are incapable of rational or logical thought that little detail would fly over your head at about 40,000 feet and you'd come out with the shit that follows.

8: "and last but not least - was the wrong size (even though the size was never specified in the reports of the order)"

What reports of the order? There was never an order, there was an application for an export licence covering the export of small arms ammunition to Syria nothing more. The ONLY calibre that would have been of any use was 7.62mm unfortunately NATO use 7.62x51mm rounds the Syrian armed forces and police use 7.62x39mm rounds - which is probably why you cannot and will not be able to come up with any records that will provide any evidence of any sale ever having taken place.

"I have no intention of re-opening this fiasco with you"

You already have you stupid prat - you were trounced in discussions on this five years ago and at various times in the interim when you have chosen to resurface the discussion - you are being trounced on it yet again, only you are too damn thick to realise it.

Mudcatters I respect I DO address civilly and with total respect - the likes of yourself, Shaw, the Gnome and Raggy I have nothing but contempt for and treat like for like. You in particular I regard as being the most intolerant, biased, bigoted individual on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:18 AM

"Israel is a wealthy country with international financial backing"

Ehmmmm Jom, to-date the leaders of the "Palestinians" have received more international aid than was given the whole of Europe in Marshall Aid to rebuild at the end of the Second World War. What have those "Palestinian Leaders" done with it? Enriched themselves and let their people suffer in deliberately maintained poverty and despair - because that is what keeps all that international aid flowing in. The people will never see more than a few pennies of it, the "Palestinian leadership" makes damned sure of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:21 AM

YOU'RE IN GREAT COMPANY HERE KEITH
Four "Joms" and one "Carroll" that time Teribus - you really are getting desperate for argument
All this is checkable and has been put up on numerous occasions
Tell you what - why not just go away and learn to talk to people in a way befitting of a decent discussion forum - learning to spell names might be a good start
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:21 AM

Here's how you justify mistreatment and discrimination in precisely the same way as Keith does. From Jim's link:

Pat Buchanan:,"America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known."

Art Robinson: "The negroes on a well-ordered estate, under kind masters, were probably a happier class of people than the laborers upon any estate in Europe."

David Horowitz: "If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves."

Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson: "Thank God for slavery, because if not, the blacks who are here would have been stuck in Africa."

So, Keith, even though those Arabs in Israel don't do anywhere near as well as the Jews they should be damn grateful and stop moaning!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

Steve, you raised the issue of life expectancy.
You criticised the low life expectancy of Arabs in Israel.
You ignored the fact that Arab life expectancy is actually lower in all the surrounding states.

Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:35 PM

"You ignored the fact that Arab life expectancy is actually lower in all the surrounding states."
And you continually choose to ignore the fat that these states are poor and Israel is rich
Anybody within any state has a right to expect to be treated equally to anybody else and not be discriminated against
NOT THE CASE IN ISRAEL
NOT THE CASE IN ISRAEL
NOT THE CASE IN ISRAEL
NOT THE CASE IN ISRAEL
Has never been the case in Israel
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/forget-israels-new-legislation-palestinians-have-been-second-class-citizens-for-decades-rights-group-9880036.html
NOT EVEN THE CASE OUTSIDE ISRAEL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:43 PM

"All this is checkable and has been put up on numerous occasions"

All that has been put up that can be conclusively shown was that an export licence was applied for by a private individual, that that licence was issued in 2009 and then it was revoked in Autumn 2010.

And please take note folks Jim Carroll has not been able to provide any evidence of:

1: There ever having been An order for ammunition from anyone inside Syria

2: That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever sold to Syria

3: That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever delivered to Syria

4: That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever used to kill anyone in Syria

So taking all of that into account if we are looking for an example of "made-up-shit" remember that the allegation initially tabled by Carroll in the 2012 Homs thread was that British weapons were killing civilians in Homs - Arrant nonsense, totally unfounded and untrue - the fact that he keeps regurgitating this fantasy of his makes him a barefaced liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM

Christians and Palestinians are treated far worse in surrounding Arab states than Arabs are in Israel.
Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:32 PM

"And please take note folks Jim Carroll has not been able to provide any evidence of:

1: There ever having been An order for ammunition from anyone inside Syria"
You've had the newspaper report and reference to its existence several times - you rejected it bcause it didn't suit your "Rule Britaniaism"
"That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever sold to Syria"
But you said it was for sporting purposes and the wrong size - on Homs Horror
"That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever delivered to Syria"
No reason it should not have been - you even suggested that it was sent too early to be of use to the Homs snipers - all on Homs Horror
"That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever used to kill anyone in Syria"
Doesn't matter - Britain shouldn't be selling anything to monsters like Assad.
If I made it up where did the published reports come from?

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:38 PM

Syria 2,676,460 30,000        1 Small arms ammunition
UK ARMS SALES TO THE MIDDLE EAST
More made-up-shit eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:41 PM

"Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?"
Yau are doing it again Keith - it doesn't matter what the neighbors do it is Israel we are discussing and they are the ones with the weaponry to blow this planet to pieces

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 03:25 PM

Carroll has put up the sum total of his "evidence" that "the British" sold arms to Syria.

The first paragraph of the article specifically states that it does not provide information on what has actually been sold only what the licences issued are worth.
If anyone would care to open that link and look at the Guianard article dated 22nd February 2011 you will see a graphic that shows The UK's "controlled" exports to North Africa and the Middle-East. By each country there is a "Blue" circle with a figure that shows the total value of controlled licences issued for that country to September 2010. There is also a "Red" circle and a figure that shows the total value of controlled licences of an explicitly military nature issued for that country to September 2010.

For Syria:
Blue = Export Licences issued worth £2.7 million - that is not the same as stating that goods worth £2.7 million of trade were exported, only that licences were issued.
Red = Export licences for explicit military exports worth £30,000 were issued – that is not the same thing as stating that anything was exported, only that a licence was issued.

The reason the figures stop at September 2010 was that was when all export licences for any goods that might be bound for Syria were revoked by the British Government.

Carroll then came out with the unfounded accusation that British weapons were being used to kill civilians in Homs in March 2012. As can be seen from Carroll's own link there were no export licences of a military nature covering the export of "weapons" to Syria.

This gives Carroll a problem

1: No evidence of any order placed for ammunition from the UK by Syria.

2: No evidence of any shipment of ammunition from the UK to Syria

So Carroll's contention that British weapons were killing Syrian civilians in Homs in March 2012 is Carroll "Made-Up-Shit" and totally unproven - he's good at baseless accusations and as with the treatment of Israeli Arabs he deliberately ignores the fact that Russian weapons are responsible for the majority of the killing in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:14 PM

where the israelis get their guns from is irrelevant.
we deal in arms. so other people.
no doubt we flog guns to the other side as well. arms dealers do that sort of thing.

the question remains - what makes the israeli treatment of arab citizens so much more heinous than the surrounding countries

countries where the leaders flaunt their wealth on the streets and race courses of Europe and America - whilst their citizens are poor, oppressed and uneducated.

i don't get my facebook page inundated every day with complaints about these countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:12 PM

The answer to that Al is the same answer to why Jews are, by far, the leading target of hate crimes in the US, Canada and the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:54 PM

You've had it Teribus - the Brits sold what was specified to Syrian
If you wish to contradict documented evidence do so with documented evidence of youtr own
You have evidence of what you claim to be "made up shit"
Now, provide evidence that your claims are not "made up shit - otherwise they are "made up shit"
Ceckmate - game, set and match,,,,, or, as Keith would say "you lose"
Three "Carrolls" there
Sad, pathetic little man
Who knows, maybe one of Bin Laden's businesses provided the transport
What a team eh!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:46 PM

I should like to see the STATISTICAL evidence that Jews are by far the most common victims of hate crimes. I need to know how a hate crime is defined and how many actual convictions there have been for hate crimes against Jews compared with other ethnic groups, or non-ethnic groups for that matter. Bear in mind that an accusation is not an indication of a crime. Only convictions by courts count. Claims are easy to make. Providing the evidence could be a tad harder. Put up or shut up, bobad.

Al, in a severely polarised Middle East it DOES matter where the Israelis get their guns from. In fact, it's at the hub of the whole problem of the Middle East. Israel gets three billion dollars per annum of unconditional military aid from the United States. That is neither an insignificant factor, bearing in mind that the population of Israel is about that of Scotland and Wales, neither is it politically insignificant bearing in mind that the US has a very long history of interference in the region, never on the side of Israel's adversaries. Finally, the treatment of Arabs in Israel is not more detestable than in the surrounding countries. Nobody here says that it is. I think Saudi Arabia is an utterly detestable regime and I think we should do no business with them whatsover on principle, oil or no bloody oil. But Israel sets itself up as an enlightened western-style democracy. A close inspection of the way Israel treats its minority gives the lie to that big time. I don't see how a country that discriminates against its non-Jewish minority, or which constantly gets into conflicts with its neighbours, can call itself a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

Jim Carroll - 13 Jun 17 - 07:54 PM

You've had it Teribus - the Brits sold what was specified to Syrian

Where in that article does it say that Jom?

"I don't see how a country that discriminates against its non-Jewish minority, or which constantly gets into conflicts with its neighbours, can call itself a democracy." - Shaw

Ehmmmm CONSTANTLY Shaw??

Tell us all when Israel was last involved in an armed conflict with it's neighbour Egypt. (I make that 1973 - 44 years ago)

Tell us all when Israel was last involved in an armed conflict with it's neighbour Jordan. (I make that 1967 - 50 years ago)

Tell us all when Israel was last involved in an armed conflict with it's neighbour Syria. (I make that 1973 - 44 years ago)

Tell us all when Israel was last involved in an armed conflict with it's neighbour Lebanon. (I make that 2006 - 11 years ago)

CONSTANTLY - Definition:

ADVERB
continuously over a period of time; always:
"the world is constantly changing" · "he was constantly on her mind"

synonyms: always · all the time · the entire time · continually · continuously · persistently · repeatedly · regularly · round the clock · without a break · night and day · day and night · {morning, noon, and night} · endlessly · non-stop · incessantly · unceasingly · ceaselessly · perpetually · eternally · perennially · forever · interminably · unremittingly · relentlessly · unrelentingly · aye · 24/7 · sempiternally

antonyms: occasionally · sometimes (These seem a damned sight more apt to me Shaw)

As for the Palestinians:

Tell us when Israel was last involved in armed conflict in the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. (I make that 2005, the end of the Second Intifada)

Tell us when Israel was last involved in armed conflict in the Gaza Strip. (I make that in 2014 - 3 years ago and that was as a direct result of rocket attacks made on Israel by Hamas terrorists from inside Gaza - Are you trying to tell us all that Israel is not permitted to defend it's citizens from attack?)

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:32 AM

By the bye Shaw does holding elections on a regular basis count towards any sort of indication that a country is democratic? If so (And I believe that it is so) we know that Israel has held elections in:
1949; 1951; 1955; 1959; 1961; 1965; 1969; 1973; 1977; 1981; 1984; 1988; 1992; 1996; 1999; 2003; 2006; 2009; 2013; 2015 - lowest voter turnout was 63.5% highest voter turnout was 86.9% - Guess what Shaw during those elections different political parties won and took office all quite peacefully (Nobody flying off the roofs of seven storey buildings)

Now how does that compare to your "Palestinian" pals track record? Doesn't go back as far does it Shaw because they were under Jordanian and Egyptian occupation between 1948 and 1967. Then they seem to have had a bit of a holiday between 1967 and 1994 - they didn't need elections during that period did they because they were being "led" by Tosser Arafat who was in the process of milking his "poor Palestinians" for every cent he could lay his hands on (Just like his uncle had done before him). By the 1990s Arafat had lost his most constant backers so the "two-state" myth was pursued in order to wrest more cash out of the international community (The pro-Palestinian bunch on this forum have yet to so me a Hamas, Hezbollah or Fatah map showing the borders of this sought after and desired Two-State solution - mind you those involved haven't even shown it to the UN). So onto these elections, they had one to kick-off the proceedings in 1994, then another in 1996. After that there was a bit of a hiatus until 2006 and then they just seemed to have abandoned the exercise.

So Shaw name one country in the region that even remotely measures up to Israel by any metric used to describe a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:33 AM

Jim,
it doesn't matter what the neighbors do it is Israel we are discussing

It is always Israel you are discussing, and always ignoring the far worse excesses of all its neighbours.
WHY?
Why doesn't it matter that Israel is the least guilty state in the region?

Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?

It is the only Jewish state.
Is that the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 05:43 AM

"It is always Israel you are discussing,"
Because the ethnic cleansing, apartheid building, murderous incursions, land-grabbing, ten year blockade...... is a permanently current issue which is taking place nowhere else on the planet.
Nobody conjured these arguments out of thin air - they are rections to what we see on our televisions and read about in our newspapers
Those of us who have been in support of the existence of Israel (from the very beginning) find your associating those crimes with the Jewish People as a whole deeply offensive.
I find your pointing to what happens elsewhere as an excuse for these horrific crimes deeply imbecilic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:03 AM

Neither Keith nor Teribus appear remotely capable of addressing what I've posted. When the wind blows the wrong way they shut their eyes to the issue, try to switch to what other countries are doing and try to trap us into making an antisemitic statement. What I've said about the discrimination against Arabs in Israel is all true and very easily confirmed. For the record, and for the umpteenth time, I know what bad things happen in countries next door to Israel. At least Israel doesn't publicly behead 300 people a year, unlike the country with whom we do massive arm deals so that they can repress their neighbours and whose oil we love. We do know all that. But address the issue. Bobad's claim about equality for Arabs was simply false. Tough if you don't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:22 AM

remember we had to stop our arms traders from smuggling a supergun to Sadam to obliterate israel.

i think you have to cut israel some slack, as they are surrounded by avowed enemies - you can't expect democracy to function in the same way that it does on the isle of wight.

and really you guys with statistics...!
i mean , theres statistics and bollocks - and it seems to me they're pretty much interchangeable.

have you costed all those tanks the soviets bought Egypt to invade israel? i think we may take it that israel's many enemies will be not without their funders.

its a way the soviets can take a pop and play cats paw with the USA like they did very successfully in Vietnam. Don't fall for the ragged peasants army routine. THe Vietnamese paid for our appalling naivety with many executions and murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:56 AM

"as they are surrounded by avowed enemies "
Perhaps you should address the reason why Israel has so many "avowed enemies" Al
****** if I'd like that particular regime as a next-door neighbour
Rather have the Royle family living next door
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 09:42 AM

Perhaps you should address the reason why Israel has so many "avowed enemies" Al

See: Anti-Semitism in the Arab world

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 09:43 AM

But for many decades the only attacks from all those "avowed enemies" on sovereign Israel territory have come from the most unsmart and ramshackle rockets imaginable from Gaza. And I cut Israel lots of slack, Al. I support the existence of the state, condemn anyone who says they want Israel wiped off the map and wish for peace and prosperity for every Israeli citizen. I've said it so many times.   It was on the particular claim that all Israeli citizens are treated on the same basis of equality that I currently beg to differ. Yes I know that there is mass mistreatment in neighbouring countries, worse than in Israel. If I'm in court charged with armed robbery I can't use as my defence the fact that some people are mass muderers. It isn't OK to be less good than you should be just because others are even worse. That's a silly, childish argument but it's the only one put forward by apologists for the Israeli regime that we see on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 10:14 AM

"Perhaps you should address the reason why Israel has so many "avowed enemies" Al"
My point exactly Bobad
The Arab Israeli conflict is the major contributor to antisemitism, the cause being that the Israelis have chosen to label their actions "Jewish" and have declared all opposition to their policies "antisemitic"
Even the Jewish people have fallen victim to this cynical use of the Jewish people as a human shield - they have become "self-loathing Jews"
Antisemitsm and Islamophobia ate two sides to the same coing, of course
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/politics/138734-170227-joint-list-chair-urges-solidarity-amid-growing-anti-semitism-and-islamophobia
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:08 AM

The reason why Israel has so many avowed enemies, or has had so many avowed enemies (Their number has diminished over the years) has a great deal to do with the regions response to Israel from it's inception in 1948. IIRC the armies of five Arab nations attacked the fledgling state swearing to destroy the state and annihilate the population rather than accept the "Two-State" Solution on offer at the time, now almost 70 years later the Arabs of the region have hoodwinked the UN into believing that this is now the solution they seek - forgive the scepticism they cannot show their version of what borders would be accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:27 AM

Er no
The reason was the departing Empire gave away land that occupied by Arabs without specifying the rights of those occupants
The British sailed away from Palestine to the sound of grenades being thrown into occupied Palestinian houses by Jewish 'Freedom Fighters'
These facts were outlined by veteran Jewish Historian, Benny Morris in his comments on Israeli atrocities and were protested against By Albert Einstein and his academic colleagues in a letter warning against the rise of "ZIONIST FASCISM"
Basically, Israel has continued the aggressive seizure of land right up to the present day, where if has now been formalised into Israeli Law, along with other actions detrimental and unacceptable by Arabs andJEWS ALIKE   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:29 AM

LAST LINK DIDN'T WORK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:31 AM

the situation is/has a similar fee to NI at the height of the troubles.

How can you treat fairly and equally a population that has declared all your structures of law and civilisation are legitimate targets?

if there is a way forward, it is not going to be found by the idiots who shower my inbox with 'talking up' the conflict.

and you can always spot them.

They always have the statistics to prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:28 PM

1948? What departing Empire?

The Empire that occupied and governed Palestine was broken up in 1920 - that was the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish diaspora had been buying land in Palestine since 1847.

In 1920 Great Britain was assigned administration of the League of Nations Mandate for the territory known as Palestine.

In 1923 with the approval of the League of Nations (Why do you never mention them Jom?) 77% of the Mandated Territory was renamed Transjordan with the proviso that this territory was set aside for the exclusive settlement by the Arabs of Palestine. The remaining 23% of the Mandated Territory was open for settlement by any group. In this part of the original mandated territory the Jewish "Homeland" was to be created in accordance with the League of Nations directions.

The British left the Mandated Territory of Palestine 27 years after being appointed to administer it in accordance with the terms and condition of the League of Nations Mandate. In 1947 the UN had proposed a two state solution to the problem, the Jews accepted this proposal, the Arabs rejected it and opted for war instead. On the day Israel declared its independence it was attacked by five Arab armies which might account for, and explain those grenades Jom. As for the reaction of the Jews of Palestine - in 1948 if someone stated their avowed intention to destroy the nascent state and annihilate it's Jewish population it is little wonder that they fought off any attack with the utmost ruthlessness, the holocaust being fairly fresh in everyone's minds - call it incentive, or motivation.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:46 PM

"How can you treat fairly and equally a population that has declared all your structures of law and civilisation are legitimate targets?"

But it isn't the Arab population of Israel that has declared anything like that, is it, Al? In fact, populations don't do that sort of thing in any case. Belligerent and idiotic leaders, well that's different. And I'd also say that treating people without discrimination is far more likely to make people see that your structures of law and civilisation are far more worthy of respect. Chicken and egg.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:57 PM

Pedantic evasion again
The fact remains that the Brits left to the sound of hand grenades says everything about that needs to be said about sharing the land.
The League of Nations had no right to resettle people who had occupide the territory for many centuries
Go look at the mps anyway - no relation whatever to the allocation of land.
Even Ben Gurion said that it was not the intention to move Arabs (The Fellahs) off their land, but that is exactly what has happened
Your mention of the Holocaust once again implicates the Jewish People to the actions of teh Israeli Regime, which is antisemitic by definition
The first person I ever heeard describe the Israeli leaders as "fascist scum" was a Manchester Holocaust survivor, and that has continued sisnce, most spectacvularly by an ex-Mossad director in the documentary 'The Gatekeepers'
How about these Holocaust survivors ARE THESE NOT WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION?
Cut the waffle and respond to the actual situation
Still "Jom" eh - it's like having a pulse to check to see how confident you are in your own verbiage
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:39 PM

My point exactly Bobad

Er, no, anti-Semitism is irrational hatred. But keep putting the blame for the irrational hatred on the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:57 PM

Let me ask you again: where are your figures that demonstrate that antisemitic hate crimes far outnumber all other hate crimes? As it stands you have made an unsupported assertion. The last time I looked the numbers of such hate crimes in the UK was very low. And, as I said before, as I assume that you are neither judge nor jury, therefore not qualified to assess what is a hate crime or what isn't unless you are talking about actual convictions for crimes defined in the way you claim, I want to know only about convictions for antisemitic hate crimes, alongside figures for all other hate crimes. If you continue to refuse to support your assertion I'm going to assume that you are making it up. If you can show that there is a major issue concerning antisemitic hate crimes outnumbering all other hate crimes, you won't hear another word from me about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:00 PM

Those of us who have been in support of the existence of Israel (from the very beginning)

Do you mean you Jim?
Do you condemn the invasion of Israel by 5 Arab armies on its first day, because you have never mentioned it before.

Do you condemn the planned invasion of Israel by Egypt, Syria and Jordan which led to the 6 day war?
You have never mentioned that before either.

Please clarify your position on those attempts to destroy the state of Israel whose existence you have apparently always supported.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:07 PM

Shaw, all the figures have been posted before.

Here's some newly released figures for 2015 from Statistics Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:24 PM

Jim,
I find your pointing to what happens elsewhere as an excuse for these horrific crimes deeply imbecilic.

I excuse nothing.
I just put it into context. All the surrounding states behave worse, so why do you never criticise them or even acknowledge their faults.

Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?
It is the only Jewish state.
Is that the problem?

(Also I challenge your description of "horrific crimes."
No decent country holds Israel guilty of any crime at all!)

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:55 PM

"I excuse nothing."
Very true Keith - my mistake
You deny everything
You refuse to put anything into context - you said yourself you only put the other side
This wall has two sides.
"Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours? "
Repetition like this is a further sign of imbecility - you've had the answeer to this several times
"It is the only Jewish state."
And this
It is antisemitic by definition to implicate te actions of Israel with the Jewish People as a whole so repeating it only confirms you to be the antisemite I believe you to be.
"No decent country holds Israel guilty of any crime at all"
Imbecility gone wild - no country defends Istarli atrocities, and if they were half-decent they would leap to the defence of their friend
What kind of decent individual stays silent while their friends are being wrongly accused?
Even the U.S. puled the plug on using the veto before the advent of Trump - and with friends like him, your case is way up the Swanee
"lease clarify your position on those attempts to destroy the state of Israel whose existence you have apparently always supported"
I have done over and over again by putting it into the context you have talked about
Israel came into exitence by making it plain that it had in no intention of adhering to any agreement - "Britain leaving to the sound of hand grenades" - remember
MY family actively supported the new Israeli State until it became what Einstein warned it might become - as did many Jews who say it is now indistinguishable from what was happening in Germany
Do you believe them to be "self-loathers?"
You really are a squalid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:45 PM

Jim:

Pot. Kettle.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 05:39 PM

Your weird bar graph is meaningless as it stands, boobs. Please interpret it in your own words. Perhaps you'd like to project it beyond Canada while you're at it. Canada is hardly the western world writ large. Really - is that the best you can come up with?

"It is the only Jewish state.
Is that the problem?"

Cut this out, Keith. Everybody here knows what your little game is. You are desperately trying to get your opponents to make an antisemitic statement. That is shallow, puerile, dishonest and disreputable. It is the behaviour of the state in human terms that is important. The regime facilitates discrimination against Arabs who live in Israel. The ethnicity of the people who carry out the discrimination is simply not the point. The point is that a regime in charge of the state is discriminating against a minority. Do try to focus. And if you really don't want us to take the piss, just drop your inane question.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:35 PM

"No decent country holds Israel guilty of any crime at all"

They all do. Collectively they are known as the United Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:49 PM

They all do. Collectively they are known as the United Nations.

UN, Israel & Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:53 PM

Just over 50 years ago, now, Israel's Foreign Minister gave this speech at the United Nations. My memory is that it was broadcast live on American television, along with much of the Security Council hearings:

I thank you, Mr. President, for giving me this opportunity to address the Council. I have just come from Jerusalem to tell the Security Council that Israel, by its independent effort and sacrifice, has passed from serious danger to successful resistance.
Two days ago Israel's condition caused much concern across the humane and friendly world. Israel had reached a sombre hour. Let me try to evoke the point at which our fortunes stood.
An army, greater than any force ever assembled in history in Sinai, had massed against Israel's southern frontier. Egypt had dismissed the United Nations forces which symbolized the international interest in the maintenance of peace in our region. Nasser had provocatively brought five infantry divisions and two armored divisions up to our very gates; 80,000 men and 900 tanks were poised to move.
A special striking force, comprising an armored division with at least 200 tanks, was concentrated against Eilat at the Negev's southern tip. Here was a clear design to cut the southern Negev off from the main body of our State. For Egypt had openly proclaimed that Eilat did not form part of Israel and had predicted that Israel itself would soon expire. The proclamation was empty; the prediction now lies in ruin. While the main brunt of the hostile threat was focused on the southern front, an alarming plan of encirclement was under way. With Egypt's initiative and guidance, Israel was already being strangled in its maritime approaches to the whole eastern half of the world. For sixteen years, Israel had been illicitly denied passage in the Suez Canal, despite the Security Council's decision of 1 September 1951 [Resolution 95 (1951)]. And now the creative enterprise of ten patient years which had opened an international route across the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba had been suddenly and arbitrarily choked. Israel was and is breathing only with a single lung.
Jordan had been intimidated, against its better interest, into joining a defense pact. It is not a defense pact at all: it is an aggressive pact, of which I saw the consequences with my own eyes yesterday in the shells falling upon institutions of health and culture in the City of Jerusalem. Every house and street in Jerusalem now came into the range of fire as a result of Jordan's adherence to this pact; so also did the crowded and pathetically narrow coastal strip in which so much of Israel's life and population is concentrated.
Iraqi troops reinforced Jordanian units in areas immediately facing vital and vulnerable Israel communication centers. Expeditionary forces from Algeria and Kuwait had reached Egyptian territory. Nearly all the Egyptian forces which had been attempting the conquest of the Yemen had been transferred to the coming assault upon Israel. Syrian units, including artillery, overlooked the Israel villages in the Jordan Valley. Terrorist troops came regularly into our territory to kill, plunder and set off explosions; the most recent occasion was five days ago.
In short, there was peril for Israel wherever it looked. Its manpower had been hastily mobilized. Its economy and commerce were beating with feeble pulses. Its streets were dark and empty. There was an apocalyptic air of approaching peril. And Israel faced this danger alone.
We were buoyed up by an unforgettable surge of public sympathy across the world. The friendly Governments expressed the rather ominous hope that Israel would manage to live, but the dominant theme of our condition was danger and solitude.
Now there could be no doubt about what was intended for us. With my very ears I heard President Nasser's speech on 26 May. He said:
"We intend to open a general assault against Israel. This will be total war. Our basic aim will be to destroy Israel."
On 2 June, the Egyptian Commander in Sinai, General Mortagi, published his Order of the Day, calling on his troops to wage a war of 'destruction against Israel. Here, then, was a systematic, overt, proclaimed design at politicide, the murder of a State.
The policy, the arms, the men had all been brought together, and the State thus threatened with collective assault was itself the last sanctuary of a people which had seen six million of its sons exterminated by a more powerful dictator two decades before.
The question then widely asked in Israel and across the world was whether we had not already gone beyond the utmost point of danger. Was there any precedent in world history, for example, for a nation passively to suffer the blockade of its only southern port, involving nearly all its vital fuel, when such acts of war, legally and internationally, have always invited resistance? This was a most unusual patience. It existed because we had acceded to the suggestion of some of the maritime States that we give them scope to concert their efforts in order to find an international solution which would ensure the maintenance of free passage in the Gulf of Aqaba for ships of all nations and of all flags.
As we pursued this avenue of international solution, we wished the world to have no doubt about our readiness to exhaust every prospect, however fragile, of a diplomatic solution – and some of the prospects that were suggested were very fragile indeed.
But as time went on, there was no doubt that our margin of general security was becoming smaller and smaller. Thus, on the morning of 5 June, when Egyptian forces engaged us by air and land, bombarding the villages of Kissufim, Nahal-Oz and Ein Hashelosha we knew that our limit of safety had been reached, and perhaps passed. In accordance with its inherent right of self-defense as formulated in Article 51 of the United Nations Charter, Israel responded defensively in full strength. Never in the history of nations has armed force been used in a more righteous or compelling cause.
Even when engaged with Egyptian forces, we still hoped to contain the conflict. Egypt was overtly bent on our destruction, but we still hoped that others would not join the aggression. Prime Minister Eshkol, who for weeks had carried the heavy burden of calculation and decision, published and conveyed a message to other neighboring States proclaiming:
"We shall not attack any country unless it opens war on us. Even now, when the mortars speak, we have not given up our quest for peace. We strive to repel all menace of terrorism and any danger of aggression to ensure our security and our legitimate rights."
In accordance with this same policy of attempting to contain the conflict, yesterday I invited General Bull, the Chief of Staff of the Truce Supervision Organization, to inform the heads of the Jordanian State that Israel had no desire to expand the conflict beyond the unfortunate dimensions that it had already assumed and that if Israel were not attacked on the Jordan side, it would not attack and would act only in self-defence. It reached my ears that this message had been duly and faithfully conveyed and received. Nevertheless, Jordan decided to join the Egyptian posture against Israel and opened artillery attacks across the whole long frontier, including Jerusalem. Those attacks are still in progress.
To the appeal of Prime Minister Eshkol to avoid any further extension of the conflict, Syria answered at 12.25 yesterday morning by bombing Megiddo from the air and bombing Degania at 12.40 with artillery fire and kibbutz Ein Hammifrats and Kurdani with long-range guns. But Jordan embarked on a much more total assault by artillery and aircraft along the entire front, with special emphasis on Jerusalem, to whose dangerous and noble ordeal yesterday I come to bear personal witness.
There has been bombing of houses; there has been a hit on the great new National Museum of Art; there has been a hit on the University and on Shaare Zedek, the first hospital ever to have been established outside the ancient walls. Is this not an act of vandalism that deserves the condemnation of all mankind? And in the Knesset building, whose construction had been movingly celebrated by the entire democratic world ten months ago, the Israel Cabinet and Parliament met under heavy gunfire, whose echoes mingled at the end of our meeting with Hatikvah, the anthem of hope.
Thus throughout the day and night of 5 June, the Jordan which we had expressly invited to abstain from needless slaughter became, to our surprise, and still remains, the most intense of all the belligerents; and death and injury, as so often in history, stalk Jerusalem's streets.
When the approaching Egyptian aircraft appeared on our radar screens, soon to be followed by artillery attacks on our villages near the Gaza Strip, I instructed Mr. Rafael to inform the Security Council, in accordance with the provisions of Article 51 of the Charter. I know that that involved arousing you, Mr. President, at a most uncongenial hour of the night, but we felt that the Security Council should be most urgently seized.
I should, however, be less than frank if I were to conceal the fact that the Government and people of Israel have been disconcerted by some aspects of the United Nations role in this conflict. The sudden withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Force was not accompanied, as it should have been, by due international consultations on the consequences of that withdrawal. Moreover, Israel interests were affected; they were not adequately explored. No attempt was made, little time given, to help Israel to surmount grave prejudice to its vital interests consequent on that withdrawal. After all, a new confrontation of forces suddenly arose. It suddenly had to be met and at Sharm el-Sheikh at the entrance to the Gulf of Aqaba, the Strait of Tiran, legality walked out and blockade walked in. The peace of the world trembled. And thus the United Nations had somehow been put into a position of leaving Sinai safe for belligerency.
It is not, I think, a question of sovereignty that is here involved. The United Nations has a right to ask that, when it assumes a function, the termination of that function shall not take place in conditions that would lead to anti-Charter situations. I do not raise this point in order to linger upon that which is past, but because of Israel's general attitude to the peace-keeping functions of this Organization. And I confess that my own attitude and those of my colleagues and of my fellow citizens to the peacekeeping functions of the United Nations have been traumatically affected by this experience.
The United Nations Emergency Force rendered distinguished service. Nothing became it less than the manner of its departure. All gratitude and appreciation are owed to the individuals who sustained its action. And if in the course of the recent combats United Nations personnel have fallen dead or wounded – as they have – then I join my voice in an expression of the most sincere regret.
The problem of the future role of a United Nations presence in conflicts such as these is being much debated. But we must ask ourselves a question that has arisen as a result of this experience. People in our country and in many countries ask: What is the use of a United Nations presence if it is in effect an umbrella which is taken away as soon as it begins to rain? Surely, then, future arrangements for peace-keeping must depend more on the agreement and the implementation of the parties themselves than on machinery which is totally at the mercy of the host country, so totally at its mercy as to be the instrument of its policies, whatever those policies may be.
We have lived through three dramatic weeks. Those weeks, I think, have brought into clear view the main elements of tension and also the chief promise of relaxed tension in the future. The first link in the chain was the series of sabotage acts emanating from Syria. In October of 1966, the Security Council was already seized of this problem, and a majority of its member States found it possible and necessary to draw attention to the Syrian Government's responsibility for altering that situation. Scarcely a day passed without a mine, a bomb, a hand-grenade or a mortar exploding on Israel's soil, sometimes with lethal or crippling effects, always with an unsettling psychological influence. In general, fourteen or fifteen such incidents would accumulate before a response was considered necessary, and this ceaseless accumulation of terrorist sabotage incidents in the name of what was called "popular war", together with responses which in the long run sometimes became inevitable, were for a long period the main focus of tension in the Middle East.
But then there came a graver source of tension in mid-May, when abnormal troop concentrations were observed in the Sinai Peninsula. For the ten years of relative stability beginning with March 1957 and ending with May 1967, the Sinai Desert had been free of Egyptian troops. In other words, a natural geographic barrier, a largely uninhabited space, separated the main forces of the two sides. It is true that in terms of sovereignty and law, any State has a right to put its armies in any part of its territory that it chooses. This, however, is not a legal question: it is a political and a security question.
Experience in many parts of the world, not least in our own, demonstrates that massive armies in close proximity to each other, against a background of a doctrine of belligerency and accompanying threats by one army to annihilate the other, constitute an inflammatory situation.
We were puzzled in Israel by the relative lack of preoccupation on the part of friendly Governments and international agencies with this intense concentration which found its reflection in precautionary concentrations on our side. My Government proposed, I think at least two weeks ago, the concept of a parallel and reciprocal reduction of forces on both sides of the frontier. We elicited no response, and certainly no action.
To these grave sources of tension – the sabotage and terrorist movement, emanating mostly from Syria, and the heavy troop concentrations accompanied by dire, apocalyptic threats in Sinai – there was added in the third week of May the most electric shock of all, namely the closure of the international waterway consisting of the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba. It is not difficult, I think, to understand why this incident had a more drastic impact than any other. In 1957 the maritime nations, within the framework of the United Nations General Assembly, correctly enunciated the doctrine of free and innocent passage through the Strait.
Now, when that doctrine was proclaimed – and incidentally, not challenged by the Egyptian representative at that time – it was little more than an abstract principle for the maritime world. For Israel it was a great but still unfulfilled prospect; it was not yet a reality. But during the ten years in which we and the other States of the maritime community have relied upon that doctrine and upon established usage, the principle has become a reality consecrated by hundreds of sailings under dozens of flags and the establishment of a whole complex of commerce and industry and communication. A new dimension has been added to the map of the world's communications, and on that dimension we have, constructed Israel's bridge towards the friendly States of Asia and Africa, a network of relationships which is the chief pride of Israel in the second decade of its independence.
All this, then, had grown up as an effective usage under the United Nations flag. Does Mr. Nasser really think that he can come upon the scene in ten minutes and cancel the established legal usage and interests of ten years?
There was in this wanton act a quality of malice. For surely the closing of the Strait of Tiran gave no benefit whatever to Egypt except the perverse joy of inflicting injury on others. It was an anarchic act, because it showed a total disregard for the law of nations, the application of which in this specific case had not been challenged for ten years. And it was, in the literal sense, an act of arrogance, because there are other nations in Asia and East Africa, that trade with the Port of Eilat, as they have every right to do, through the Strait of Tiran and across the Gulf of Aqaba. Other sovereign States from Japan to Ethiopia, from Thailand to Uganda, from Cambodia to Madagascar, have a sovereign right to decide for themselves whether they wish or do not wish to trade with Israel. These countries are not colonies of Cairo. They can trade with Israel or not trade with Israel as they wish, and President Nasser is not the policeman of other African and Asian States.
Here then was a wanton intervention in the sovereign rights of other States in the eastern half of the world to decide for themselves whether or not they wish to establish trade relations with either or both of the two ports at the head of the Gulf of Aqaba.
When we examine, then, the implications of this act, we have no cause to wonder that the international shock was great. There was another reason too for that shock. Blockades have traditionally been regarded, in the pre-Charter parlance, as acts of war. To blockade, after all, is to attempt strangulation; and sovereign States are entitled not to have their trade strangled. To understand how the State of Israel felt, one has merely to look around this table and imagine, for example, a foreign Power forcibly closing New York or Montreal, Boston or Marseille, Toulon or Copenhagen, Rio or Tokyo or Bombay harbor. How would your Governments react? What would you do? How long would you wait?
But Israel waited because of its confidence that the other maritime Powers and countries interested in this new trading pattern would concert their influence in order to re-establish a legal situation and to liquidate this blockade. We concerted action with them not because Israel's national interest was here abdicated. There will not be, there cannot be, an Israel without Eilat. We cannot be expected to return to a dwarfed stature, with our face to the Mediterranean alone. In law and in history, peace and blockades have never co-existed. How could it be expected that the blockade of Eilat and a relaxation of tension in the Middle East could ever be brought into harmony?
These then were the three main elements in the tension: the sabotage movement; the blockade of the port; and, perhaps more imminent than anything else, this vast and purposeful encirclement movement, against the background of an authorized presidential statement announcing that the objective of the encirclement was to bring about the destruction and the annihilation of a sovereign State.
These acts taken together – the blockade, the dismissal of the United Nations Emergency Force, and the heavy concentration in Sinai – effectively disrupted the status quo which had ensured a relative stability on the Egyptian-Israel frontier for ten years. I do not use the words "relative stability" lightly, for in fact while those elements in the Egyptian-Israel relationship existed there was not one single incident of violence between Egypt and Israel for ten years. But suddenly this status quo, this pattern of mutually accepted stability, was smashed to smithereens. It is now the task of the Governments concerned to elaborate the new conditions of their co-existence. I think that much of this work should be done directly by these Governments themselves. Surely, after what has happened we must have better assurance than before, for Israel and for the Middle East, of peaceful co-existence. The question is whether there is any reason to believe that such a new era may yet come to pass. If I am a little sanguine on this point, it is because of a conviction that men and nations do behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. Surely the other alternatives of war and belligerency have now been exhausted. And what has anybody gained from that? But in order that the new system of inter-State relationships may flourish in the Middle East, it is important that certain principles be applied above and beyond the cease-fire to which the Security Council has given its unanimous support.
Let me then say here that Israel welcomes the appeal for the cease-fire as formulated in this Resolution. But I must point out that the implementation depends on the absolute and sincere acceptance and co-operation of the other parties, which, in our view, are responsible for the present situation. And in conveying this Resolution to my colleagues, I must at this moment point out that these other Governments have not used the opportunity yet to clarify their intentions.
I have said that the situation to be constructed after the cease-fire must depend on certain principles. The first of these principles surely must be the acceptance of Israel's statehood and the total elimination of the fiction of its non-existence. It would seem to me that after 3,000 years the time has arrived to accept Israel's nationhood as a fact, for here is the only State in the international community which has the same territory, speaks the same language and upholds the same faith as it did 3,000 years ago.
And if, as everybody knows to be the fact, the universal conscience was in the last week or two most violently shaken at the prospect of danger to Israel, it was not only because there seemed to be a danger to a State, but also, I think, because the State was Israel, with all that this ancient name evokes, teaches, symbolizes and inspires. How grotesque would be an international community which found room for 122 sovereign units and which did not acknowledge the sovereignty of that people which had given nationhood its deepest significance and its most enduring grace.
No wonder, then, that when danger threatened we could hear a roar of indignation sweep across the world, that men in progressive movements and members of the scientific and humanistic cultures joined together in sounding an alarm bell about an issue that vitally affected the human conscience. And no wonder, correspondingly, that a deep and universal sense of satisfaction and relief has accompanied the news of Israel's gallant and successful resistance.
But the central point remains the need to secure an authentic intellectual recognition by our neighbors of Israel's deep roots in the Middle Eastern reality. There is an intellectual tragedy in the failure of Arab leaders to come to grips, however reluctantly, with the depth and authenticity of Israel's roots in the life, the history, the spiritual experience and the culture of the Middle East.
This, then, is the first axiom. A much more conscious and uninhibited acceptance of Israel's statehood is an axiom requiring no demonstration, for there will never be a Middle East without an independent and sovereign State of Israel in its midst.
The second principle must be that of the peaceful settlement of disputes. The Resolution thus adopted falls within the concept of the peaceful settlement of disputes. I have already said that much could be done if the Governments of the area would embark much more on direct contacts. They must find their way to each other. After all, when there is conflict between them they come together face to face. Why should they not come together face to face to solve the conflict? And perhaps on some occasions it would not be a bad idea to have the solution before, and therefore instead of, the conflict.
When the Council discusses what is to happen after the cease-fire, we hear many formulas: back to 1956, back to 1948 – I understand our neighbors would wish to turn the clock back to 1947. The fact is, however, that most clocks move forward and not backward, and this, I think, should be the case with the clock of Middle Eastern peace – not backward to belligerency, but forward to peace.
The point was well made this evening by the representative of Argentina, who said: the cease-fire should be followed immediately by the most intensive efforts to bring about a just and lasting peace in the Middle East. In a similar sense, the representative of Canada warned us against merely reproducing the old positions of conflict, without attempting to settle the underlying issues of Arab-Israel co-existence. After all, many things in recent days have been mixed up with each other. Few things are what they were. And in order to create harmonious combinations of relationships, it is inevitable that the States should come together in negotiation.
Another factor in the harmony that we would like to see in the Middle East relates to external Powers. From these, and especially from the greatest amongst them, the small States of the Middle East – and most of them are small -ask for a rigorous support, not for individual States, but for specific principles; not to be for one State against other States, but to be for peace against war, for free commerce against belligerency, for the pacific settlement of disputes against violent irredentist threats; in other words, to exercise an even-handed support for the integrity and independence of States and for the rights of States under the Charter of the United Nations and other sources of international law.
There are not two categories of States. The United Arab Republic, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon – not one of these has a single ounce or milligram of statehood which does not adhere in equal measures to Israel itself.
It is important that States outside our region apply a balanced attitude, that they do not exploit temporary tensions and divergences in the issues of global conflict, that they do not seek to win gains by inflaming fleeting passions, and that they strive to make a balanced distribution of their friendship amongst the States of the Middle East. Now whether all the speeches of all the Great Powers this evening meet this criterion, everybody, of course, can judge for himself. I do not propose to answer in detail all the observations of the representative of the Soviet Union. I had the advantage of hearing the same things in identical language a few days ago from his colleague, the Soviet Ambassador in Israel. I must confess that I was no more convinced this evening than I was the day before yesterday about the validity of this most vehement and one-sided denunciation. But surely world opinion, before whose tribunal this debate unrolls, can solve this question by posing certain problems to itself. Who was it that attempted to destroy a neighboring State in 1948, Israel or its neighbors? Who now closes an international waterway to the port of a neighboring State, Israel or the United Arab Republic? Does Israel refuse to negotiate a peace settlement with the Arab States, or do they refuse to do so with it? Who disrupted the 1957 pattern of stability, Israel or Egypt? Did troops of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait and Algeria surround Israel in this menacing confrontation, or has any distinguished representative seen some vast Israel colossus surrounding the area between Morocco and Kuwait?
I raise these points of elementary logic. Of course, a Great Power can take refuge in its power from the exigencies of logic. All of us in our youth presumably recounted La Fontaine's fable, "La raison du plus fort est toujours la meilleure." But here, after all, there is nobody who is more or less strong than others; we sit here around the table on the concept of sovereign equality. But I think we have an equal duty to bring substantive proof for any denunciation that we make, each of the other.
I would say in conclusion that these are, of course, still grave times. And yet they may perhaps have a fortunate issue. This could be the case if those who for some reason decided so violently, three weeks ago, to disrupt the status quo would ask themselves what the results and benefits have been. As he looks around him at the arena of battle, at the wreckage of planes and tanks, at the collapse of intoxicated hopes, might not an Egyptian ruler ponder whether anything was achieved by that disruption? What has it brought but strife, conflict with other powerful interests, and the stem criticism of progressive men throughout the world?
I think that Israel has in recent days proved its steadfastness and vigor. It is now willing to demonstrate its instinct for peace. Let us build a new system of relationships from the wreckage of the old. Let us discern across the darkness the vision of a better and a brighter dawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:58 PM

It is the only Jewish state.

So then it IS a theocracy, Professor?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:14 PM

Greg, read up on what Jews consider to be Jewish means not what you and other haters want it to mean to further your agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:47 PM

So then it IS a theocracy then, Bubo?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:54 PM

Pretty stupid remark, boobs. Save your energy for providing the figures I asked you for. Deliver or be damned as a bloody fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:58 PM

Reproducing a vast speech without comment is puerile and pointless, robomatic. Bloody bad-mannered actually. Save yourself and tell us what your point is.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:27 PM

It was a bloody great speech which encapsulated the situation as Israel saw it, at the same time as the War was occurring. It was delivered with excellent form.
It was Churchillian.
They pressed a recording of it soon after. You can still get it online. I recommend it.
It's spot-on with the OP which a lot of your blather is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:36 PM

Reproducing a huge speech sans comment is PURE blather. Lazy, nothing to say for yourself. You're very good at dissing other people who make efforts to make their points, no matter how misguided, then you copy and paste a huge, tedious piece of sheer boredom in the forlorn hope that it'll "speak for itself." Hardly the Gettysburg Address, is it? Would you like to tell us what the point of it is? Shall I give you a limit of, say, four hundred words? Cor, what an indulgence that would be! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:39 PM

I'm brief when brevity suits. I'm going easy on you because I understand you were injured in a concentration camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:46 PM

You're brief because you have nothing to say. As you've just demonstrated excellently. And you're pissed and I'm sober. Oh man, help yourself, as Beethoven once said to a man far greater than you. Nighty night!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:56 PM

If you're going nighty night, get someone to read it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:37 AM

Jom,
Imbecility gone wild - no country defends Istarli atrocities,

Imbecility gone wild-No decent country accuses Israel of atrocities.
(or will you quote one, ha ha?)

Those of us who have been in support of the existence of Israel (from the very beginning)

If you have defended Israel's right to exist from the beginning, you must deplore attempts to destroy it from its first day.

Please state that, because you never have before.

michaelr
"No decent country holds Israel guilty of any crime at all"
They all do. Collectively they are known as the United Nations.

No. Decent liberal democracies, EU states, Canada, Australia New Zealand, do not instigate or support the anti-Israel motions that are always started by some of the worst regimes in the world.

Greg F
It is the only Jewish state.
So then it IS a theocracy, Professor?

No. It is a Western style liberal democracy, and the only one in the whole region.

Steve, here is a more manageable extract of the speech.
Anyone who really supports the existence of Israel must deplore what happened.

"An army, greater than any force ever assembled in history in Sinai, had massed against Israel's southern frontier. Egypt had dismissed the United Nations forces which symbolized the international interest in the maintenance of peace in our region. Nasser had provocatively brought five infantry divisions and two armored divisions up to our very gates; 80,000 men and 900 tanks were poised to move.
A special striking force, comprising an armored division with at least 200 tanks, was concentrated against Eilat at the Negev's southern tip. Here was a clear design to cut the southern Negev off from the main body of our State. For Egypt had openly proclaimed that Eilat did not form part of Israel and had predicted that Israel itself would soon expire."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:51 AM

No decent country stands by silently while their friend is condemned worldwide (you have had all those quotes - from human rights organisations, from relief agencies, from neutral observers, from press reports (with film and photographs) from a massive world protest by Jews and no Jews aliuke from inside and outside of Israel which is now leading to a call for a worldwide ban on Israeli goods.
Israel is now in the same position Apartheid South Africa was prior to is fall
And you rely entirely on the silence of self-interested Governments as a defence!
THE ISRAELI THOCRACY in CONTEXT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:59 AM

NOW WHERE'S YOUR EXAMPLES ? of "decent nations defending Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:20 AM

Jim, your link is about settlements.
I have always acknowledged that no countries support Israel on that, but I stand by my point that no decent country accuses Israel of atrocities.
(or will you quote one, ha ha?)

No decent country stands by silently while their friend is condemned worldwide

They do not, but decent countries like EU nations, Canada, Australia, New Zealand do stand silent while Israel's enemies, some of the nastiest regimes in the world, shout propaganda and lies about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:17 AM

"but I stand by my point that no decent country accuses Israel of atrocities.
Israeli atrocities are a tangible fact - we watched them and we read about them
Groups like Medicines Sans Frontiers, Amnesty, the UN and many others have reprted on them and condemned them - they are a well established fact as is ibvious by your hysterical laughter
The silence of politicians - for fuck's sake Keith!!!!
Are you really reduced to that
THIS IS THE POSITION OF ALL DECENT COUNTRIES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:40 AM

Strangely enough Jim, the first person i heard liken Israel's treatment of its arab population to the holocaust was my dad, who was in one of the armies that liberated one of the camps.

mind you - he was a strange man. strange opinions. cnd member. thought the second world war was so horrible, it wasn't worth fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 07:21 AM

Secretary general Ban Ki Moon cites anti-Israel bias and disproportionate volume of resolutions against Israel in UN.

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:12 AM

"mind you - he was a strange man. strange opinions. cnd member. thought the second world war was so horrible, it wasn't worth fighting."
From where I stand he was an admirable man
The British establishment kowtowed to Hitler until they had no other alternatve but to oppose him
My dad came home from fighting fascism to be awarded an MI5 record and put on a blacklist for being a "premature anti-fascist"
The holocause was described by some members of the British establishment as lies made up by "whingeing Yids"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:23 AM

And the Six-Day-War put paid to the notion of whingeing weak-kneed dependent Semites for many. It had a good side and a bad side, both of which we are seeing in this thread.
In cinematographic terms, Jews went from "Gentlemen's Agreement" in 1947 to "Little Drummer Girl" in 1984.
As a Rabbi who served in Alaska once said, the difference is between a people perceived as helpless and acted upon to a people perceived as in control of their own nation, hence making difficult decisions of State which will inevitably lead to criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:32 AM

ah! theres the difference. when my dad came home - the MI5 offered him a job, and i'm not sure he ever really forgave my mum for not letting him take it.

like i say...odd!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:42 AM

"My dad came home from fighting fascism to be awarded an MI5 record and put on a blacklist for being a "premature anti-fascist"

And I dare say, and sincerely hope, that all those about to come streaming back from the fighting in Syria, irrespective of what groups they joined will be awarded similar attention.

All those who joined and fought in paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland will have come under similar scrutiny for very good reason.

The British security, intelligence and law enforcement agencies do not view sympathetically people who go abroad to fight in other people's wars, and such people do need monitoring. In the case of those returning from Syria and Libya - I simply would shred their passports and not let them re-enter the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:44 AM

Funny how bombing schools and hospitals, leaving cluster bomblets all over fields in someone else's country to blow children's feet off for decades after, wrecking waterworks, razing whole villages and stealing land can sound so much more respectable when you put them under the heading "difficult decisions of State," eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:47 AM

Good job you're not in charge then, Teribus. We call regimes that treat everyone like that who disagrees with the official line "fascists."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

"people who go abroad to fight in other people's wars,"
Spain was a fight against the fascism Britain was supporting at the time
The result which ensued the year my dad came home fully vindicated his going and the Holocaust underlined underlined the choice of an ally Britain had made
But that's capitalism for you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:26 PM

Jim, no decent country accuses Israel of atrocities.
(or will you quote one, ha ha?)

No decent country stands by silently while their friend is condemned worldwide

They do not, but decent countries like EU nations, Canada, Australia, New Zealand do stand silent while Israel's enemies, some of the nastiest regimes in the world, shout propaganda and lies about Israel.

You say that you have supported Israel's right to exist from the beginning.
Why then do you refuse to condemn the attempt by 5 Arab armies to destroy it on day 1?
Why do you refuse to condemn the attempt by 3 Arab armies to destroy it in 1967?
Why do you refuse to condemn the UN taking no action to save Israel?
Why do you refuse to condemn the UN removing its peace keeping force to give the Arab armies a free run in 1967?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:55 PM

Tell me where they have opeenly defended what happened in Gaza or the settlements
More hysteria
Fuck you and your politicians Keith
I'd rather go with the Jewish People
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.612072http:/
or
https://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2017/04/03/its-crucial-that-jews-speak-out-for-palestinians-british-jews-network/
or
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/its-time-for-liberal-jews-to-wake-up-and-face-israeli-human-rights-violations/
or
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/08/israel-soldiers-speak-out-brutality-palestine-occupation
or
https://www.opendemocracy.net/openglobalrights/rabbi-arik-ascherman/in-israel-rabbis-for-human-rights-address-painful-paradoxes
http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/progressively-speaking-jewish-voice-against-israels-occupation-getting-louder/
or
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/jewish_voice_for_peace_jvp_/
or
http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/jewish-activists-condemn-canadian-jewish-congress-cjc-for-supporting-crimes-against-humanity-cjc-seeks-to-smear-critics-of-israeli-atrocities-537003411.html
or
http://sandiegofreepress.org/2014/07/jewish-voice-for-peace-san-diego-condemns-the-israeli-offensive-in-gaza/
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/40870-no-apartheid-in-our-name-lgbt-jewish-groups-block-celebrate-israel-parade
http://forward.com/news/israel/202796/jews-march-in-new-york-rally-against-israel-war-in/

I'm sure, fascist that you are, would rather go with the politicians
Why are the Holocaust survivors and other Jews' opinions are less important than the silence of politicians?
Please do not attempt to evade this unless you wish to admit that your support if for the Right wng Israeli regime rather than the Jewish people
So what's it to be - the opinions of the Jewish people or the politicians not saying anything?
Plenty more where they come from
Jim Carroll

Subject: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:59 PM

Let's see. The USSR was backing Egypt in 1967 when it was using poison gas in Yemen. The USSR of course starved millions of its own citizens prior to WWII and executed a whole generation of military officers in 1937 show trials (Darkness at Noon, etc.). The USSR executed Polish officers en masse, delayed crossing the Vistula letting the Nazis eliminate all Polish resistance in Warsaw, dominated Latvia and Lithuania politically, economically, and racially, invaded Finland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan.
Signed a pact with Nazi Germany and started WWII by splitting Poland in half with Hitler.
Invented the AK47 then supplied millions upon millions of copies of the weapon to various 'liberation' organizations thus creating an arguable holocaust throughout Europe and the Mideast.
Denied the religious aspect of the Nazi Holocaust to suit its own ideological ends, including purging of the Jewish authors of The Black Book , and persecuted Jews for generations up to the death of Stalin.

And, (back to the subject at hand), supporting the dictator Nasser in his attempt to extend 'liberation' ethos to the "United Arab Republic" utilizing Israel as the scapegoat.


That's Communism for you! !

And, irony of ironies, it was Israel which successfully utilized Socialism in its Kibbutz movement, and was able to meld socialist economic practices with democratic forms of decision making.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:17 PM

"Critics say it is time for the West to abandon its embarrassing alliance with the Saudis. How, they ask, can the West denounce the carnage in Syria when its own ally is bombing civilians in Yemen? If the Saudis, with Western support, can intervene to defend the government of Yemen, why should Russia not defend Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria? Morally and perhaps legally, America and Britain are implicated in Saudi actions: they sell warplanes and munitions to the Saudi regime; they also provide air-refuelling and help with targeting. What is more, critics say, Saudi Arabia is a woeful ally against jihadism. Indeed, it inflames global extremism through its export of intolerant Wahhabi doctrines."
That's Capitalism for you

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:05 PM

For the sake of historical accuracy
Not just support but PRACTICAL ASSIISTANCE
That's Capitalism for you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:28 PM

well i don't know about countries - but my facebook page is full of atrocity accusations against Israel by individuals.

let's ask someone we all trust - amnesty international maybe - whether there is cause for concern.

and if there is, and if there isn't...well theres sod all we can do about it.

end of argument.